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So I've been reading through the "Of Cities and Kings" article in Rivers Run Red, and it's truly a delight! A very elegant system I think. I'll probably test it out for a couple dozen mock kingdom turns soon.
But first, there are just a couple "elegance gaps" among the buildings. Primarily, most of the buildings fall into a hierarchy of "Build this to halve the cost of those." The excepts drove me a bit batty, so I came up with a few extras, listed below.
The only other issue is that a few of the buildings have identical stats (except cost in some cases). I'd like to differentiate these a bit.
New Buildings:
Embassy (40 BP; must be adjacent to a City Wall):
A welcoming center for foreign rulers and local friends alike.
Halves cost up to two Allied buildings (e.g. Druid Grove and Gear Shop) in same city. Grants +2 on Stability checks to peacefully claim a town hex.
Economy +1, Stability +2; limit one per city.
Druid Grove (34 BP; requires an NPC Druid Ally):
An isolated bit of nature set aside for a friendly druid.
Halves cost of Alchemist, Brewery, and Herbalist in same city.
City base value +500 gp; 2 minor items, 1 medium item;
Stability +4; Defense Modifier +1; limit one per city.
Gear Shop (26 BP; requires an NPC Gnome Ally):
The workshop and home of a friendly, eccentric, gnome; full of clanking metal and very curious contraptions, some of which dangerous enough to assist in defense.
Halves cost of Mill, Smith, and Tannery in same city
City base value +500 gp; 4 minor items, 1 cursed minor item
Economy +2; Defense Modifier +1; +1 Unrest; limit one per city.
The idea is that these "Ally" buildings must be unlocked in role-playing, and probably wouldn't even known as options to start.
Identical buildings (minor new effects needed):
+1 Eco/Loy:
Graveyard 4 BP:
Library 6 BP:
+1 Eco/Loy, +500gp:
Inn 10 BP:
Stable 10 BP:
Tavern 12 BP:
+1 Eco/Sta:
Tannery 6 BP:
Mill 6 BP:
Smith 6 BP:
+1 Loy/Sta:
Granary 12 BP: +2 on Stability Checks vs. Food Spoilage [suggestion - this is a big price difference]
Brewery 6 BP:
Dump 4 BP:
+1 Loy/Sta, 1 minor:
Herbalist 10 BP:
Exotic Craftsman 10 BP:
Suggestions for the rest would be welcome. The equal price ones need to be very minor, as they are already balanced against others. Or perhaps get a plus and minus.
Creative Director
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We were, of course, limited by space as to how many buildings to present (both in wordcount for the article and in how many actual building pictures we could afford on one page). The system is absolutely the type that I was hoping to see folks expand upon, though, with new building types. (although gnomes in Golarion aren't really tinker types...)
A few more types of buildings that could be cool to add:
Winery
Gallows
Tournament Grounds
Shipyard
Thieves' Guild
Lighthouse
Gaming Hall (aka casino)
A few more types of buildings that could be cool to add:
...
Gaming Hall (aka casino)
Gaming Hall: A building where a bunch of people sit around tables rolling dice all day and arguing about obscure rules. +2 economy (they always have to buy the newest, shiniest dice) and +2 loyalty (they are fanatical), but -1 stability (they keep the neighbors up at night and invite rumors of devil worship; plus they keep casting Magic Missile at improbable things).
Gaming Hall: A building where a bunch of people sit around tables rolling dice all day and arguing about obscure rules. +2 economy (they always have to buy the newest, shiniest dice) and +2 loyalty (they are fanatical), but -1 stability (they keep the neighbors up at night and invite rumors of devil worship; plus they keep casting Magic Missile at improbable things).A few more types of buildings that could be cool to add:
...
Gaming Hall (aka casino)
I'm attacking the darkness!
+1 Loy/Sta:
Granary 12 BP:
Brewery 6 BP:
Dump 4 BP:
The Granary seems very pricey indeed!
Maybe it was meant to give either +1 Loy/+2 Sta or +2 Loy/+1 Sta ?
We were, of course, limited by space as to how many buildings to present (both in wordcount for the article and in how many actual building pictures we could afford on one page). The system is absolutely the type that I was hoping to see folks expand upon, though, with new building types. (although gnomes in Golarion aren't really tinker types...)
Of course - it's a solid system as built, with nice room for additions. My specific niggle as mentioned was more a personal desire for symmetry (which is not always the best design goal as you've mentioned). As for the Gnomes... I know.. but... :)
The Granary seems very pricey indeed!
Right - which is why I think that +2 bonus would be appropriate.
I actually worked up a simple equation to try to estimate the worth of each building:
Value = (Base Value/500) + (5 if halves cost of other buildings) + (# of items generated/2) + Economy bonus + Loyalty Bonus + Stability Bonus + Defense bonus - (2*Unrest modifier)
I found dividing this by price gave a reasonably useful quotient for comparison between buildings. The actual values of the above could vary - I may be putting too little weight on the E/L/S bonuses, etc. With that Quotient, most buildings are between 0.2 and 0.5 (average 0.4, StDev .16), with a few below and a few as high as .83. There should probably be an extra factor for the Arena, Cathedral, and Waterfront's effects on edicts.
Let's see about those new buildings... Edit: Here we go:
Winery (10 BP;)
Flowery description text
Economy 1, Loyalty 1, Stability 1.
Gallows (8 BP;)
Flowery description text
Stability 1; Unrest -2.
Tournament Grounds (25 BP;)
Flowery description text
May be upgraded to Arena for 20 BP if space.
Economy 3, Loyalty 1.
Shipyard (30 BP;a water border)
Flowery description text
Halves cost of Lighthouse and Winery.
City Base Value +1,000 gp;
Economy 2, Stability 1.
Thieves' Guild (32 BP;)
Flowery description text
Halves cost of Gallows and Gaming Hall.
City Base Value +1,000 gp; 2 minor items, 1 medium item;
Economy 1, Stability 1; Defense Modifier +1; Unrest +1.
Lighthouse (22 BP;a water border)
Flowery description text
City Base Value +500 gp; 1 minor item;;
Economy 1, Loyalty 1, Stability 2; Unrest -1.
Gaming Hall (12 BP;)
Flowery description text
City Base Value +500 gp; 2 minor items;
Economy 2, Stability -1; Unrest -1.
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Identical buildings (minor new effects needed:
Good catch! I've been puttering around today creating a "kingdom" spreadsheet for our Kingmaker campaign, and I didn't even notice that some of the buildings provided identical bonuses for different costs until you pointed it out.
My thoughts on fixes:
Graveyard (4 BP)/Library (6 BP):
For this one, I removed the +1 Economy that Graveyards provide but left the Library bonus intact. Stability seems to be heavily used, and Graveyards drop in price if you build a Temple, so Graveyards end up being a very inexpensive boost to that one check while Libraries are a slightly more expensive boost to two checks.
This is mostly true during the early months of city growth. Once you build an Academy, Libraries drop to 3BP and become more attractive than Graveyards. I don't see much of a problem with that, though. It kind of makes sense, and the Academy costs about 20 BP more than a Temple (which is why I'd assume it will generally built later).
Tannery/Mill/Smith (All 6 BP):
I don't think I'll change anything here. Fluff-wise they are all different, but mechanically they provide the exact same bonuses for the exact same cost. If anything, I'd use these stats as a "catch-all category" for other industrial buildings in a city.
Inn/Stable (Both 10 BP)/Tavern (12 BP):
For the Inn and Stable, I think I'm going to look at them the same way I look at the Tannery/Mill/Smith buildings I describe above. They provide the same bonus for the same cost, so I'll treat other "service" buildings in the city the same.
Taverns present a minor problem in that they are A) more expensive and B) required to be placed next to housing. Since they have slightly greater requirements, I feel Taverns should provide a slightly greater reward. I'm going to up the value from 500gp to 750gpm. Plus, they make a nice and centralized location for characters to gather information in town.
Granary (12 BP), Brewery (6 BP) and Dump (4 BP):
There is a very large price difference here for otherwise identical bonuses. I think the 6 BP brewery should be the baseline building of this type. For the Granary, I'm definitely going to use your suggestion of +2 on Stability checks vs. the Food Shortage event. I'm also going to make the bonus cumulative for all Granaries. Depending on how it plays out in practice, I may up the bonus to +4 but I think +2 is a safe starting point.
In order to cover the less-expensive Dump, I'm going to add a negative effect. When built, a dump adds 1 Unrest for every non-dump, non-tenement building adjacent to it. Also, any building constructed next to a dump adds +1 Unrest.
Herbalist/Exotic Craftsman (Both 10 BP):
I'm going to add a note that the minor magical item slot provided by a Herbalist is "a potion or scroll only" while the Exotic Craftsman provides a "non-potion, non-scroll minor magical item". It makes sense to me, is easy to track, and justifies the different buildings.
Thoughts? Anyone?
Graveyard (4 BP)/Library (6 BP):
If you drop Graveyard like that, it becomes a rather inefficient building. I'm also trying to avoid changing bonuses already present. However your reasoning on Stability is pretty sound.
Tannery/Mill/Smith (All 6 BP):
Agreed - these could simply be listed together.
Inn/Stable (Both 10 BP)/Tavern (12 BP):
+750 or +1000 would both work fine. I would like to differentiate Inn/Stable a bit, since they are not really similar, but it's not necessary.
Granary (12 BP), Brewery (6 BP) and Dump (4 BP):
I think simply a single +1 Unrest would work for the Dump (if/when adjacent to something). It would be overwhelming at +1 each. If you stack the Granary bonus, I'd make it +1 each, and that's a good idea.
Herbalist/Exotic Craftsman (Both 10 BP):
Good differentiation here.. except I don't see Herbalists making scrolls really.
I'm attacking the darkness!Gaming Hall: A building where a bunch of people sit around tables rolling dice all day and arguing about obscure rules. +2 economy (they always have to buy the newest, shiniest dice) and +2 loyalty (they are fanatical), but -1 stability (they keep the neighbors up at night and invite rumors of devil worship; plus they keep casting Magic Missile at improbable things).A few more types of buildings that could be cool to add:
...
Gaming Hall (aka casino)
You Could always build...a Gazebo!!!!
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If you drop Graveyard like that, it becomes a rather inefficient building. I'm also trying to avoid changing bonuses already present. However your reasoning on Stability is pretty sound.
In general I'm reluctant to change any of the initial bonuses, but a graveyard providing +1 to Economy (the same bonus as an Inn, Luxury Store, Magic Shop, Brothel, Regular shop, Tavern, Town Hall, or Tradesman) seems a bit ... odd to me. I'm sure our friends at Paizo playtested the rules before releasing them, so maybe it all works out in game, but I'm interested to hear the reasoning behind how a graveyard stimulates the economy.
Regardless, the graveyard and dump are the two cheapest buildings that provide a bonus to the seemingly vital Stability check. Once you create a Temple, the graveyard becomes a dirt cheap way of raising your Stability (bad pun intended). Also, I like graveyards (and dumps) being somewhat inefficient. It makes sense to build multiple houses and shops and watchtowers, and they are attractive enough mechanically to do so, but not many people are going to fill a city district with graveyards (unless you end up with a HUGE city and want your very own graveyard district). One or two, early on, make sense and provide a cheap boost to Stability.
I think simply a single +1 Unrest would work for the Dump (if/when adjacent to something). It would be overwhelming at +1 each. If you stack the Granary bonus, I'd make it +1 each, and that's a good idea.
Leaving it at +1 would work. Nice and simple. My reasoning was that dropping a dump in the middle of a commercial (or, worse, residential) district is bound to piss off everyone in the area. That seems like a larger penalty that +1 to me. I also split it into current/future +1s to prevent someone from building a dump and then surrounding it with houses. Rather like a Graveyard, I can't picture a reason to build a bunch of dumps in the same city. Thinking about it now, I would probably change the list of buildings that don't increase Unrest next to a dump to include waterfront-type buildings, city walls, industry and the like. Just stick to commercial and residential buildings being a no-no.
As for the Granary bonus, I like your +1 idea better. My original reasoning was that the Control DC would raise faster than the other bonuses could keep up, and that a cumulative +1 would be too little for such a pricey building. Now that I'm playing with the numbers, I think a more conservative +1 will be just fine for now. Maybe I'll raise it later in the campaign.
Good differentiation here.. except I don't see Herbalists making scrolls really.
Yeah ... I can see that being a stretch. I just like having my cheap, disposable magic items in one location. That, and I think "adept" when I think "herbalist shop". You could easily make Herbalists "potions only" and lump scrolls in with everything else. Just a stinky little shack where you can buy potions for cheap. I can see it working either way.
Graveyards often attract tourists to a city, so maybe that is a rationale? Of course usually those are either big (New Orleans), unique (Rome), or contain a celeb (Boston, Graceland). Maybe the bonus applies if 4+ are built together. OR the bonus only applies if a hero is interred there (ie a PC or well known NPC).
Question: any thoughts about temples to specific deities? Obviously each one would be devoted to a specific deity, but would that choice change the mechanics. For example a temple to Erastil might also function as a town hall while one to Callistria would serve double duty as a brothel. Maybe to offset the cost, an RP need might need to be met; PC or allied NPC cleric, a quest, etc. Seems like something more than a royal decree would be required to make a building into a Temple to Desna.
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Flowery description text
City Base Value +500 gp; 1 minor item;;
Economy 1, Loyalty 1, Stability 2; Unrest -1.
Mistake limiting it to a water border. A light house in land is a signal tower. And the cost is iffy. 22,000 ton of stone is about right for a small one. Thats at least 5,000gp in cost to quarry (maybe 11,000 gp to quarry and construct).
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Graveyards often attract tourists to a city, so maybe that is a rationale?
My guess would be something along those lines. It just doesn't jive well to me. First, for the reasons you described (only large, famous cemeteries draw tourists). Second, if we start throwing out incidentals like that, wouldn't basic housing generate Economy? The people that live there have to buy stuff. I donno, the +1 to Economy just doesn't seem right to me. So I dropped it. *shrug*
Question: any thoughts about temples to specific deities? Obviously each one would be devoted to a specific deity, but would that choice change the mechanics.
Personally, I don't think I'd make temples different mechanically. Mostly for the same reason I'm viewing the Tannery/Mill/Smith buildings as differently named forms of a general "industry" building. I think that on the city/kingdom building level it is better to be as non-specific as possible for simplicity's sake.
I do like the idea of players fluffing out the various temples (along with important structures like an Academy or Nobel Villa) as they build them. Use them as an opportunity to introduce new NPCs or side-adventures. I think naming every Tavern could be a bit excessive (especially since a "tavern" building tile could represent multiple such establishments in a single area) but some buildings are just begging for a little extra thought.
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Creative Director
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I suspect that graveyards having a bonus to economy is a typo. They're really cheap to build, and giving them 2 bonuses for only 4 BP is an error. They should only grant a +1 bonus to Loyalty.
And tannerys, mills, and smiths are different buildings for 2 reasons.
1) So we could get more buildings on the list.
2) Because they have different needs. A tannery smells TERRIBLE and shouldn't go next to a house. Mills need rivers. Smiths have neither of those requirements, and are a significantly common building to see in RPGs. So, three different buildings.
How about..
Stockyard [16BP] 2 spaces, cannot be adjacent to a House;halves cost of Tannery
Flowery Descriptive Text
Economy +2, Stability +1,
I'm tempted to put an unrest +1 in this as well ..we all know what cowboys are like.
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I suspect that graveyards having a bonus to economy is a typo. They're really cheap to build, and giving them 2 bonuses for only 4 BP is an error. They should only grant a +1 bonus to Loyalty.
...wow. Speaking of typos. I wrote "stability" instead of "loyalty" in my original post. Then I copy/pasted it without checking ... then I defended it. Damn. On a related note, I will never again make fun of poor editing in a gaming book. I can't even error-check my own messageboard posts!
2) Because they have different needs. A tannery smells TERRIBLE and shouldn't go next to a house. Mills need rivers. Smiths have neither of those requirements, and are a significantly common building to see in RPGs. So, three different buildings.
That makes sense. It also does a good job of illustrating that you can easily create a "new" building by simply adding or removing a limitation. My point with saying that I "view them the same" is that if my players decide to build ... I donno ... a butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker in Olegton then I don't have to fret over the details. I can just compare those buildings to the current list and copy/paste the stats (hopefully without errors this time).
The butcher and baker would cost 6BP and provide a +1 to Loyalty and Stability, just like the brewer. The candlestick maker would cost 6BP and provide a +1 to Economy & Stability, just like the Smith. If I need to, I could add a limitation (like a potter having to be next to water) where it seems appropriate but otherwise it is an easy swap.
Thoughts?
The gaming parlor would add a +1 to unrest.
If you look similar buildings have added to unrest, due to an unsavory type of crowd they attract.
The gaming parlor would add a +1 to unrest.
If you look similar buildings have added to unrest, due to an unsavory type of crowd they attract.
Yeah those sneaky RPGers. Oh wait, wrong type gaming parlor.
Yeah those sneaky RPGers. Oh wait, wrong type gaming parlor.The gaming parlor would add a +1 to unrest.
If you look similar buildings have added to unrest, due to an unsavory type of crowd they attract.
It's a gateway game into murder and debauchery, haven't you heard?
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The gaming parlor would add a +1 to unrest.
If you look similar buildings have added to unrest, due to an unsavory type of crowd they attract.
You could effectivly create a freeport with nothing but unrest with all that social decay and unsavoury populace. No Law, No Authority figures, no Government. Just a city of Sin...I dont see that inspiring unrest. I see it inspiring participation.
FREEPORT
WATERFRONT, BROTHEL, TAVERN, GAMING PARLOUR, + anything else that fits.
A corrupt lawless dive in the River bend. I suppose Lawless behaviour = unrest.
Lighthouse (22BP):
Mistake limiting it to a water border. A light house in land is a signal tower. And the cost is iffy. 22,000 ton of stone is about right for a small one. Thats at least 5,000gp in cost to quarry (maybe 11,000 gp to quarry and construct).
I could see a Signal-light on land, perhaps. Not sure what you mean on the cost (whether you think it's high or low). 22 BP represents up to 88,000 gp in wealth expended to build it.
The gaming parlor would add a +1 to unrest.
If you look similar buildings have added to unrest, due to an unsavory type of crowd they attract.
I had the feeling that a Gaming Parlor would reduce unrest, by giving an outlet, and tried to account for the unsavory people with the -1 to Stability.
Stockyard [16BP] 2 spaces, cannot be adjacent to a House;halves cost of Tannery
Flowery Descriptive Text
Economy +2, Stability +1,I'm tempted to put an unrest +1 in this as well ..we all know what cowboys are like.
I like! It would work for halving Brewery as well. I don't think rowdy = unrest though. I say this living not far from "The Stockyards", and having to put up with cowboy types (mentally).
We were, of course, limited by space as to how many buildings to present (both in wordcount for the article and in how many actual building pictures we could afford on one page). The system is absolutely the type that I was hoping to see folks expand upon, though, with new building types. (although gnomes in Golarion aren't really tinker types...)
A few more types of buildings that could be cool to add:
Winery
Gallows
Tournament Grounds
Shipyard
Thieves' Guild
Lighthouse
Gaming Hall (aka casino)
I think they list the Winery in Jon Brazer Games' Book of the River Kingdoms, as well as many other cool buildings (like Witch's Hut).
And pardon my asking, but I thought that a Shipyard was covered by the Waterfront? And that a Gaming Hall would come under Tavern and/or Brothel?
That said the rest sound like great ideas, though I'm stuck wondering why the PCs would build a Thieves' Guild -- why make a home base for the people who will be stealing from you and your citizens?
That said the rest sound like great ideas, though I'm stuck wondering why the PCs would build a Thieves' Guild -- why make a home base for the people who will be stealing from you and your citizens?
It's not the PCs that build things in their kingdom. The *players* do that. It's an important distinction for exactly the point you bring up. As players, there are things that exist within a kingdom that circumvent its laws like thieves guilds and black markets and yet end up helping the kingdom as a whole. The PCs would never condone such things and yet can benefit from them regardless.
A modern day equivalent would be something like the drug trade. If it magically disappeared over night, the economy would be crippled due to the billions of dollars that would be removed from the country. No leader would actively support the drug trade and yet we're perfectly happy accepting the benefits from it.
That said the rest sound like great ideas, though I'm stuck wondering why the PCs would build a Thieves' Guild -- why make a home base for the people who will be stealing from you and your citizens?It's not the PCs that build things in their kingdom. The *players* do that. It's an important distinction for exactly the point you bring up. As players, there are things that exist within a kingdom that circumvent its laws like thieves guilds and black markets and yet end up helping the kingdom as a whole. The PCs would never condone such things and yet can benefit from them regardless.
Very good point, thank you.
Though now that I think about it, I could see the characters deciding to put a black market up -- making sure that they have some people loyal to them involved in running it, so as to keep an eye on crime in their nation.
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My PCs want to build a Courthouse in their city, so I came up with this:
Courthouse (25 BP; 1 x 2 city blocks, limit one per city): the seat of judicial power in the city, where trials are heard and the proper justice is determined for crimes. Halves cost of Office of the City Watch. +2 Loyalty, +2 Stability.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
My PCs want to build a BLANK in their city.
Whenever my PCs want to build something that's not on the list, I just take an existing building and rename it. Sometimes I tweak the stats in a very minor way.
For example, for a Courthouse I'd either give it the same stats as a Jail or a Town Hall. In the latter case I might remove ability to construct other buildings at 1/2 price.
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My PCs want to build a Courthouse in their city, so I came up with this:
Courthouse (25 BP; 1 x 2 city blocks, limit one per city): the seat of judicial power in the city, where trials are heard and the proper justice is determined for crimes. Halves cost of Office of the City Watch. +2 Loyalty, +2 Stability.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Interesting, I never even noticed that courthouse was not something that was already available. I guess we all just assumed "townhall" would handle that role - but I don't see the harm in both.
That being said, I think the benefits laid out is a bit underwhelming for the BP that you charge.
Compare to:
Garrison (28BP) - for just a few BP more - Halves cost of City Wall, Granary,and Jail in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
Jail (14 BP) - about half for your proposed courthouse - Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.
I think I would add in -2 to Unrest for it as well which could offset the disparity.
If you're at all like me, and using certain buildings or people to benefit certain events, you could even allow the Courthouse to play a role in the Bandit Activity and especially Sensational Crime Events.
Robert
WOW, the posters here never cease to amaze me. Some of these new buildings are great.
I do have one od question though...in a world with undead, why on earth, or Golarion, or Greyhawk, or Faerun would a town build a graveyard? It seems to me that cremation would be, well, for lackof a better word, safer.
To me a graveyard adds no bonus, only unrest.
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WOW, the posters here never cease to amaze me. Some of these new buildings are great.
I do have one od question though...in a world with undead, why on earth, or Golarion, or Greyhawk, or Faerun would a town build a graveyard? It seems to me that cremation would be, well, for lackof a better word, safer.
To me a graveyard adds no bonus, only unrest.
A crematorium actually sounds like a building option. I'll have to think up some stats/cost for it. Good idea!!
Because bodies properly laid to rest in a graveyard can't become undead. That's at least half of its purpose. The 'Graveyard' city improvement isn't just a big hole with a sign saying "toss yer dead here!" It's an organized system of body collection (hearses), preparation (mortuaries), celebration (funeral directors) and interment (whether for urns, coffins, or shroud-wrapped corpses).
Yes, magic can cause a body to rise as undead, but magic can also ensure a body never rises as undead.