So unless I'm completely mistaken it's possible to have +1 magic arrows, yes?
Now what if a character has a +1 magic bow and fires a +1 magic arrow... Is the damage cumulative so the weapon attacks as a +2 weapon? (1+1)
No. Both are Enhancement bonuses, and bonuses of the same type do not stack (except for Dodge bonuses and Circumstance bonuses from different circumstances).
Exactly, the point would be to have a +1 Flaming distance Bow of Nerfdom and fire +5 arrows from it.
Actually,
The point would be to have a +1 Bow of Flaming, and a +1 Arrow of Acid. Then you get a +1 Flaming Acid attack.
Actually,
The point would be to have a +1 Bow of Flaming, and a +1 Arrow of Acid. Then you get a +1 Flaming Acid attack.
Point.
Same thing different results, but i like your style....
Exactly, the point would be to have a +1 Flaming distance Bow of Nerfdom and fire +5 arrows from it.
More or less. Generally speaking, you want the Enhancement bonus and the non-damage-type extras (distance, seeking, speed, etc) to go on the bow, and leave the arrows at +1 <insert damage type here>. This is because the arrows get used up at an alarming rate and it's much much cheaper to replace +1 flaming arrows than +5 arrows.
Although the +5 arrows would bypass most DR's (cold iron, silver, adamantine, alignment based, and magic of course).
Can of worms... I warn you buddy, can of worms...
So the best bonus applies?
+3 bow with +1 arrows means the attacks are +3?
Although the +5 arrows would bypass most DR's (cold iron, silver, adamantine, alignment based, and magic of course).
So +5 arrows would bypass that but not a +5 bow?
Although the +5 arrows would bypass most DR's (cold iron, silver, adamantine, alignment based, and magic of course).So +5 arrows would bypass that but not a +5 bow?
I wanna know that too, I don't think that's correct.
Actually,
The point would be to have a +1 Bow of Flaming, and a +1 Arrow of Acid. Then you get a +1 Flaming Acid attack.Point.
Same thing different results, but i like your style....
LOL,
Thanks. Just, as Zurai points out, I'd rather spend the money for the +5 bow and put the flaming on 50 arrows. :)
So the best bonus applies?
+3 bow with +1 arrows means the attacks are +3?
Although the +5 arrows would bypass most DR's (cold iron, silver, adamantine, alignment based, and magic of course).So +5 arrows would bypass that but not a +5 bow?
Yes, best bonus applies. Stacked Bonus 101 there.
The +5 bow would also bypass as well.
Thing is, if you happen to find +5 arrows, and you don't have a +5 bow, you keep those +5 arrows for when you run into something with DR you can't bypass any other way.
It's also cheaper to get a variety of x-bane arrows, or arrows of slaying.
Absolutley, and not just cheaper but easier to use on the fly to.
mdt hit it on the head for DR bypassing.
projectile weapons place any enhancements onto their missiles.
And of course this gets a little redonkulous when the PC is a arcane archer....
Although the +5 arrows would bypass most DR's (cold iron, silver, adamantine, alignment based, and magic of course).So +5 arrows would bypass that but not a +5 bow?Yes, best bonus applies. Stacked Bonus 101 there.
The +5 bow would also bypass as well.
Yes, sorry for the confusion! I was just meaning that the +5 would be useful (vs. +1 Bow of something-awesome & +1, Flaming arrows).
1K a piece, but +5 arrows are still nice to have around.
1K a piece, but +5 arrows are still nice to have around.
Not really. No offense. I'd rather spend the money on a +5 bow. If I were going to spend 1K per for arrows, I'd rather buy +1 Flaming, Acidic, Frosting, Shocking arrows. Or, +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows, or +1 Keen Seeking arrows of Wounding. That way I have an efficient quiver with, say, 5 +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows to shoot from my +3 Frosting Shocking long bow if I run into a Lich, and 5 +1 Flaming Acidic Shocking Frost arrows to fire from my +5 Shortbow if I run into an Elder Wyrm I just absolutely HAVE to bring down THIS ROUND! ;)
Not really. No offense. I'd rather spend the money on a +5 bow. If I were going to spend 1K per for arrows, I'd rather buy +1 Flaming, Acidic, Frosting, Shocking arrows. Or, +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows, or +1 Keen Seeking arrows of Wounding. That way I have an efficient quiver with, say, 5 +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows to shoot from my +3 Frosting Shocking long bow if I run into a Lich, and 5 +1 Flaming Acidic Shocking Frost arrows to fire from my +5 Shortbow if I run into an Elder Wyrm I just absolutely HAVE to bring down THIS ROUND! ;)
1K a piece, but +5 arrows are still nice to have around.
Elemental properties stack with one another now? Disrupting is usable on arrows?
Arcane Archer is nerfed a lot. Cause those awesome bonuses stack only till +10 tops, so, you don't need that awesome arrow, bow and ability. :(
So unless I'm completely mistaken it's possible to have +1 magic arrows, yes?
Now what if a character has a +1 magic bow and fires a +1 magic arrow... Is the damage cumulative so the weapon attacks as a +2 weapon? (1+1)
Magic ammunition has its own rules:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.htmlOnly applies the best enhancement bonus, magic ammunition can break, etc..
Imo that's not very usefull for archers, but it is a good consummible for melee fighters that only fire an arrow/bullet now and then and don't want to spend an insane ammount of money in a magic bow or sling.
Not really. No offense. I'd rather spend the money on a +5 bow. If I were going to spend 1K per for arrows, I'd rather buy +1 Flaming, Acidic, Frosting, Shocking arrows. Or, +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows, or +1 Keen Seeking arrows of Wounding. That way I have an efficient quiver with, say, 5 +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows to shoot from my +3 Frosting Shocking long bow if I run into a Lich, and 5 +1 Flaming Acidic Shocking Frost arrows to fire from my +5 Shortbow if I run into an Elder Wyrm I just absolutely HAVE to bring down THIS ROUND! ;)
1K a piece, but +5 arrows are still nice to have around.Elemental properties stack with one another now? Disrupting is usable on arrows?
Arcane Archer is nerfed a lot. Cause those awesome bonuses stack only till +10 tops, so, you don't need that awesome arrow, bow and ability. :(
No offense taken mdt :) Certainly a +5 bow would be better than +5 arrows. However, if you instead have a +1 Holy, Anarchic, Flaming, Shocking Bow (+7), you might like a selection of +5 arrows since (a) you can't put +5 on your bow, and (b) it would cost 30K to even make it +2. They have their place.
Xum: Yes, you can have multiple elemental abilities on a weapon (no change there). It gets silly, particularly with frost and flaming. Also there is no Acidic property in Pathfinder. Disrupting is *not* usable on arrows. Also Arcane Archers don't use magic arrows - their ability only is usable on normal arrows. But yes, according to Paizo peeps (the rules aren't *this* specific), an Arcane archer just needs a +5 bow to max out at 9th level.
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Not really. No offense. I'd rather spend the money on a +5 bow. If I were going to spend 1K per for arrows, I'd rather buy +1 Flaming, Acidic, Frosting, Shocking arrows. Or, +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows, or +1 Keen Seeking arrows of Wounding. That way I have an efficient quiver with, say, 5 +1 Disrupting Holy Undead Bane arrows to shoot from my +3 Frosting Shocking long bow if I run into a Lich, and 5 +1 Flaming Acidic Shocking Frost arrows to fire from my +5 Shortbow if I run into an Elder Wyrm I just absolutely HAVE to bring down THIS ROUND! ;)
1K a piece, but +5 arrows are still nice to have around.Elemental properties stack with one another now? Disrupting is usable on arrows?
Arcane Archer is nerfed a lot. Cause those awesome bonuses stack only till +10 tops, so, you don't need that awesome arrow, bow and ability. :(
Why don't they stack?
I can buy a +5 Anarchic, Shocking Burst bow (+9 total bonus) and still use my Arcane Archer ability to make my arrows Flaming Burst and Holy. The abilities from AA don't add to the enhancement bonus, only add abilities to the ammunition shot. Furthermore I could shoot a +1 Demon Bane arrow from it, and that would stack since, again, I'm not overcoming the enhancement bonus cap of the weapon itself which is the only thing in the rules. Can you quote me something that specifically disallows this?
Why don't they stack?
Because an Official Ruling was made a while back (in a thread about the Paladin Weapon Bond ability, which is essentially the same thing as the Arcane Archer ability) that a weapon cannot go over +10 total enhancement equivalent by any means ever.
Left unsaid was how to handle situations where the enchantments total to more than +10. Which enchantments carry over when you've got a +7 equivalent bow firing a +6 equivalent arrow? What happens when you cast greater magic weapon on a +2 holy vorpal sword? Who knows. The rules don't address it.
Personally, I think that ruling is one of the worst ever in the history of D&D rulings, but I'm not on their rules consulting team...
It's the mantra of D&D held over into Pathfinder that "Like bonuses (or penalties) do not stack, you simply use the highest."
The only exceptions to this are unnamed or untyped bonuses and Dodge bonuses to AC.
However, the advantages to using magic bows and magic arrows is to stack different effects on each; it won't increase the pluses, but if you want to rack up the damage it's the best way to go. You can get different ammunition types very cheaply (silver, adamantine, cold iron) so that you always have a chance of dishing damage on your target.
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I can buy a +5 Anarchic, Shocking Burst bow (+9 total bonus) and still use my Arcane Archer ability to make my arrows Flaming Burst and Holy.
I concur with Zurai, that Paizo development folks have said that under those circumstances, only an equivalent of +10 enhancement bonuses (from enhancements or other powers laid on them) is possible. If you try to add both Flaming Burst and Holy to your arrows, that'll tip the total enhancements to +13. You can use, I presume, whichever +10 you want, but word-on-the-boards is that you can't use class abilities to exceed the +10 cap.
Blergh.
Forgot disrupting was melee bludgeoning only, but the point still stands.
In all, especially with the +10 limit total, I'd generally rather spend my money for the +s to my bow, and then buy ammo with special qualities as needed. That's just my personal preference though, of course.
Why don't they stack?Because an Official Ruling was made a while back (in a thread about the Paladin Weapon Bond ability, which is essentially the same thing as the Arcane Archer ability) that a weapon cannot go over +10 total enhancement equivalent by any means ever.
Left unsaid was how to handle situations where the enchantments total to more than +10. Which enchantments carry over when you've got a +7 equivalent bow firing a +6 equivalent arrow? What happens when you cast greater magic weapon on a +2 holy vorpal sword? Who knows. The rules don't address it.
Personally, I think that ruling is one of the worst ever in the history of D&D rulings, but I'm not on their rules consulting team...
They are NOT essentially the same. The language is completely different. The language with the paladin ability specifically speaks to adding enhancement bonuses to a weapon, whereas AA speaks to adding special qualities irrespective of what enhancement bonus they might be.
So I take it you feel that a Scabbard of Keen Edges would not work on a sword which was already +10 enhancement bonus because Keen is a +1 enhancement? Rules-wise this doesn't effect the weapon's enhancement bonus, but adds a special ability just as Shillelagh (sp?) or Keen Edge the spell.
AA adds enhancement bonus which can not exceed +10. They like everyone else they use the same rules. The hard limit is +10 and nothing as yet in the rules exceeds that limit.
Keen edge spell is not the same as the keen ability. As the spell is untyped and the ability is not. It is an oddity . But most likely was left untyped so it could work. The Scabbard of Keen Edges works as it casts the untyped spell upon the weapon . If it granted the Keen ability which is an enhancement,it would not work.
AA adds enhancement bonus which can not exceed +10. They like everyone else use the same rules. The hard limit is +10 and nothing as yet in the rules exceeds that limit.
Keen edge spell is not the same as the keen ability. As the spell is untyped and the ability is not. It is an oddity .
Again, Arcane Archer does NOT add enhancement bonus to the weapon, only special abilities. Consider also Flame Arrow the spell.
Unlike everyone else (paladin) they have class abilities that add special properties to their ammo, the language in which says nothing about adding enhancement bonuses to said ammo.
If what you say is true, then AA is in fact a far poorer archer than other classes. Consider a lvl 17 fighter with a +5 Flaming Burst Shock Undead Bane bow. Now consider a Wiz1/Ftr6/AA10 With a +5 bow. His class abilities force him to add an elemental burst (+2), distance (boo! lame enchantment) and alignment enhancement, topping out at his +10. If you were playing in a campaign that prominently featured creatures with elemental resistance, or with neutral or varying alignments, your class abilities would be rather lousy. Or if you were fighting a lot of undead you could NOT enchant it to be undead bane. They only amount, then, to free gold which doesn't sound like much of a PrC to me.
Sigh
Enhance Arrows (Su): At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical,gaining a +1 enhancement bonus. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer's magic arrows only function for him.In addition, the arcane archer's arrows gain a number of additional qualities as he gains additional levels. The elemental, elemental burst, and aligned qualities can be changed once per day, when the arcane archer prepares spells or, in the case of spontaneous spellcasters, after 8 hours of rest.
At 3rd level, every nonmagical arrow fired by an arcane archer gains one of the following elemental themed weapon qualities: flaming, frost, or shock.
At 5th level, every nonmagical arrow fired by an arcane archer gains the distance weapon quality.
At 7th level, every nonmagical arrow fired by an arcane archer gains one of the following elemental burst weapon qualities: flaming burst, icy burst, or shocking burst. This ability replaces the ability gained at 3rd level.
At 9th level, every nonmagical arrow fired by an arcane archer gains one of the following aligned weapon qualities: anarchic, axiomatic, holy, or unholy. The arcane archer cannot choose an ability that is the opposite of his alignment (for example, a lawful good arcane archer could not choose anarchic or unholy as his weapon quality).
The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack.
They are enhancement. I am not sure how you are reading it is not really. And it adds only to non-magical arrows. If you use magic arrows none of that counts. So yes using a non-magic arrow they grant it +5 or so but not while using magic ones. They can churn out +1 bust,holy arrows of distance from plain old arrows.
I think you may need to read over the class a bit man, your missing some very key points to the class.
stuff
That is not my argument. Maybe I am understanding your and Zurai's position on this. It says those arrows get "one of the following weapon qualities" it does not have any language as to increasing its enhancement bonus other than the +1.
You are saying that the bonuses from AA do not stack with a)arrows on which I agree, they must be nonmagical arrows when fired b)the bow itself if the enhancement bonus of the bow and the enhancement equivalent of said powers totals more than 10. Correct?
There is no language anywhere as to increasing the weapon's enhancement bonus, only the arrows. You seem to be inferring that adding special properties is equal to adding enhancement bonus to them, but there is no line stating this explicitly. So since I am firing a nonmagical arrow through a +10 bow, and the act of firing those arrows confers upon them special weapon properties (but does not, as written, increase their enhancement bonus beyond the +1 to make them magical) should the arrows not then gain all magical properties? Does this differ than magical weapon oils, the Flame Arrow spell, Keed Edge or a scabbard of Keen Edges etc etc.
The other situations, and those which I feel this ruling does speak to, are ones like the paladin where you explicitly increase the enhancement bonus of the weapon temporarily.
edit: i think the last line of the AA enhancement is where our differences originate. I read three statements, related but not reliant upon one another.
I read and interpret: The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Meaning (to me) an AA shooting nonmagical arrows from a +5 flaming bow becomes a +5 flaming, shocking burst, distance, holy arrow.
Line 2: Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. My arrows are enhanced to be +1 on top of those abilities. If my bow is +3 it is then +3. The other abilities are weapon enhancements but not enhancement BONUSES therefore should stack not overlap.
Line 3: Duplicate abilities do not stack. I can't have a double flaming weapon.
All of those weapon qualities have enhancement equivalent price modifiers, which is exactly what the Paladin ability does:
These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, f laming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed.
This has been ruled to not be able to exceed +10 total.
Similarly:
"The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack."
Arrows are weapons - they get the bow's bonuses, not the other way around.
Frankly I do see the Keen Edge spell (or flaming from a helm of brilliance) to be the same, and would count.
I do plan on ignoring this ruling personally. I think it's a good ruling for reducing the level of ridiculousness that gets bandied about as "optimization", but I don't see a problem with the stacking from class abilities.
The other situations, and those which I feel this ruling does speak to, are ones like the paladin where you explicitly increase the enhancement bonus of the weapon temporarily.
No, the ruling was explicit even with equivalent bonuses. Not that this is very emphatically not my position. I think I peeved off Joshua Frost more than a little bit arguing against it. It is, however, the official position.
BTW, scabbards of keen edges get around it because it doesn't give the weapon the keen property, it casts the keen edge spell, and keen edge doesn't give the keen property, it just has the same effect as the keen property.
That is not the same thing with Arcane Archers. AAs do give the actual weapon properties/qualities to their arrows. Unfortunately, the official ruling (which I very much disagree with and, as I said, think it's one of the worst rulings in the history of D&D) says that nothing at all can enhance a weapon past +10 equivalent enchantment, period, end of story, do not pass Go.
Again your not understanding. Weapon qualities from the magic items section are enhancement bonus.So yes they count for the +10 limit.
flaming, frost, shock and distance are +1 Enhancement bonus.flaming burst, icy burst, shocking burst,anarchic, axiomatic and holy are +2 Enhancement bonus. They are all enhancement. The reason the AA gets the +1 first is you can not add a Weapon quality enhancement before the weapon is at lest a +1.
Oils, and some spells do not give an Enhancement bonus. Weapon qualities however do. By RAW the AA's ability can not push any weapon past a total of +10
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pg 468 of the crb:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability equivalents) higher than +10.
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
That line makes it clear that the arrow has the enhancement bonus that the weapon gives it, if the weapon had the higher bonus. So, if that increases the actual enhancement bonus of the arrow, we can deduce that effective enhancement bonuses are treated the same way. Since we've got implied direction to do it this way, and no implied direction any other way.
If you're arguing that weapon quality bonuses don't stack as enhancement bonuses, then the immediate thought that comes to my mind is that I can't find a list of what these weapon qualities are and do.
The closest list regarding these weapon qualities is in the magic weapon section under special abilities, and each one listed there has an *effective enhancement bonus* score.
So, if you're using the lists there, then each one counts as having an effective enhancement bonus, which is then added to the weapon to calculate the maximum enhancement bonus on that weapon.
The problem is that arcane archer uses the same qualities from the magic weapon special ability section, and at no point does the arcane archer say that these bonuses no longer count as having an effective enhancement bonus that is then added to the weapons bonus to calculate the total enhancement bonus.
The way you appear to be reading it, it looks like you're assuming that the special bonuses no longer have the other properties because the aa calls them weapon qualities.
If you assume that they lose the other qualities they possess, namely an effective enhancement bonus, then you have to assume that they lose all their qualities. Not just the ones you'd prefer they not have. So they wouldn't deal any extra damage, nor have any effect on game play at all. Since that can't be the intention, they must keep their qualities.
It's like saying that if I call this orange a piece of fruit, then it's fruit and loses all other qualities, including peel, shape, and taste.
Personally, I think this is a terribad ruling about limiting bonuses to +10, including temporary enhancements, but if you look at that as accurate, then the arcane archer is significantly less powerful. As per a comment made on the paladin thread, the benefit now becomes being able to custom-enchant your weapon vs the specific opponent you're facing.
Meh. I'd rather have the enhancement bonus without the flexibility then then flexibility without being able to stack the bonus.
The can of worms is fully open, and I see all the usual suspects here....
Carry on.
What about a +1 magic bow with a masterwork arrow?
Is it +1 or +2 to hit?
What about a +1 magic bow with a masterwork arrow?
Is it +1 or +2 to hit?
+1, masterwork is an enhancement bonus to hit, +1 magic is an enhancement bonus to hit and damage, they do not stack.
*grabs can opener*
But to have properties arrows need a +1 enhancement bns. Which overlaps with the bns from the bow. What a waste.
Eh then do not by or use +1 arrows with a +1 bow. Sell em or give em to they guy in the party that does not have a +1 bow.
my point being that you need to pay for a +1 in order to get the flaming/frost/etc. properties stacking.
Any way around this?
Not that I know of. Magical arrows are not made to go with magic bows really. There is little point outside of a specific use{ slaying } to make arrows like that. Heavy duty +3 flameburts arrows and the like are not used by folks with magic bows but for folks who do not have the magic bows more often then not.
*grabs the worms and dumps them all on the table!*
ok so i have a +2 bow of flaming,flamimg burst,Holy, Anarchic,keen,bane vs munchkins. i fire a +1 arrow of frost, frost burst,shock, shock burst,Exiomatic,bane vs fluff. my arrow is what exactly?
what happens when my properties alone are more than a +10 weapon basically? who decides what properties function? would holy kick in just because the target is evil? does the player pick? if you can pick properties what about enhancement bonuses? if your bow is +3 and you have properties maxed (arrows+bow) with tons of +1 properties do your arrows HAVE to take +3 or can you choose the +1 of the arrows. could you choose +2? could an AA SUBSTITUTE an ability out to add a different abilty if its kept under +10 TOTAL?
Thats up to the GM, I would think the arrows would have to be marked off first. As it is whats delivering the hit.
Told ya. :)
And yes, the +10 cap is crap. It makes AA useless and paladins become sad when they go up levels, instead of being happy.
Not sure where you get that from. A paladin is not forced to take that ability and it is never useless. The AA's ability are likewise never useless.
But eh, to each his own I guess
That FORCES paladins to take the mount, as the ranger ability FORCES him to take the companion.
I will agree with you in one thing, they are not useless, alright. Raging Climber, leaper and swimer are not useless either.
Not sure where you get that from. A paladin is not forced to take that ability and it is never useless. The AA's ability are likewise never useless.
But eh, to each his own I guess
AA ability is rather useless. If it gave you the OPTION to enhance your arrows with those abilities, given the +10 cap, then maybe. But it says you must. In the end all it is is money for levels, which is a horrible trade.
Downright the most retarded ruling I've ever heard.
JJ and JB haven't adresed this yet, so, fingers crossed.
whats to address?
whats to address?
The +10 enhancement cap. (Or did I forget they did?)
They did. Nothing in the current rules can bypass the cap.