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Better tactics? Squid hidden under water, appears suddenly and kills them...what tactics would you suggest? Flying 35 ft above the water just in case a squid appears?Better tactics for the monsters....
Maybe spreading out a bit to avoid all getting hit in one round. A fireball would do close to the same thing if placed correctly.
Not more serious than a 3rd lvl cleric blasting a unit of skeletons into dust with Channel Energy, or a Sorcerer putting down to sleep 4 goblins or so with one Sleep!
Per day- limited powers should be pretty cool and powerful. What you need is not to minimize the effect of those powers, but to play on attrition. Have more encounters per day, so that characters with abilities without usage limit per day (Fighters' good melee skills and feats, Rogues sneak) have a chance to shine as the others get "powered out."
Specifically for Druids, it is useful to present non-combat challenges where using Wild Shape is useful. For instance, become a bird to go up or down a cliff and carry rope for the rest of the party, or become a swimming beast to retrieve items at the bottom of a deep body of water, or a snake to slither between the bars of a gate and activate the opening mechanism from the other side. Doing this reduces the number of times per day they can become a killing machine (so other members may enjoy combat) but they also remain an important contribution to party success.
Well I would ask a couple of questions. What were the physical stats of the druid? Wild Shape no longer gives them the full abilities of the monster they turn into, but are only modified by the Druids base stats.
Second, changing shape takes a standard action. So it should at least take a full round to change shape and get into position to be able to attack. At that point I would be surprised if the druid is strong enough to kill level 8~12 monsters with one hit... and if the druid is killing all of them in one or two rounds he is one shotting people.
That being said, if the druid character is built to be a physical combatant and not a casting based druid he/she will be very effective in combat. Just like a physical combat specced fighter, barbarian, or paladin. Most of the other characters could have also done well in one round with a charm or hold spell. While the fighter rogue would probably need to get into flank to do as much damage on a target in one round with a full attack action.
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Well for the first encounter, that actually sounds pretty awesome. Can't fault the Druid there at all, though with the way PF has changed Wild Shape, I'm not sure it would be that easy to solo the fight, much less the whole encounter.
It might behoove your DM to reread Wild Shape, as I have a feeling this issue is misusing it rather than with the Druid itself.
As for the Dire Tiger, I am not sure what the issue was, as you really haven't said what happened. I'm inclinded to agree that maybe better tactics might be a good call, either on the DM or Party's side.
...what tactics would you suggest? Flying 35 ft above the water just in case a squid appears?
Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
For one thing, half/rogue characters are going to be a little weaker then a straight caster by level 8.
I find that wildshape is kept in check by a lack of AC up until wild armor becomes available. If one of the pirates had been a fighter type, he would have been tough to hit, and could have power-attacked the druid into next weak.
Sounds like the party (except the druid), and their opponents were in situations where their primary abilities (stealth, sneak attacking) were not very useful, while the druids abilities allowed it to clean house, apparently at little risk to himself. Sometimes this happens, but it is usually situational. Sounds like both situations were very similar, and both uses of wildshape gave lots of attacks quickly. Against opponents with crappy HP and AC, this will work very well. Against a power-attacking giant in full plate, not so much.
Finally, I would double check your math, and remind yourself of any house rules that may skew things (high ability point buy, hp, or equipment). Luck can cause strange things to happen, but you should really try a wider variety of encounter types before doing anything drastic.
Better tactics? Squid hidden under water, appears suddenly and kills them...what tactics would you suggest? Flying 35 ft above the water just in case a squid appears?Better tactics for the monsters....
The Squid... has to expose itself to attack, if nothing else the tentacles, even if the DM isn't as cruel as to start chopping off tentacles, it was VERY attackable. If anything the player probably should've had a concealment penalty to attack things on a ship while submerged... all kinds of visibility issues. All assuming he stayed underwater by the info I read above, holding his breath and staying on the ships deck isn't out of the question either, but much easier of a target. (EDIT: Also we're assuming you're using Pathfinder, not 3.5E which WOULD be a more powerful wildshape.)
Druid's Spells... I know some won't agree, but I find MOST of them relatively USELESS or situational at best, assuming he's not buffing or healing, with an occasional entangle.
I have enjoyed 2 Druid's recently, prior to Pathfinder, neither were terribly interested in being 'spell casters". One was a wildshaper with good physical stats and an occasional heal(Barbarian/Druid), the other was mounted on his animal companion sharing buff spells and healing it while tossing out the occasional Grease or Entangle. (Druid/Wizard/Arcane Heirophant)
Party make-up... It actually doesn't surprise me that a Druid is the best melee character in THAT party, especially if he's got decent physical stats prior to wildshaping. Everyone in the party was multiclassed except him... Fighter/Rogue, Bard/Rogue, Cleric/Rogue. I don't know the class levels involved, but there's a bunch of self-nerfing(via multiclassing) going on there, where the Druid goes full on 8 levels and looks pretty darn cool in comparison.
(As a side note, I hope the 3 psuedo-Rogues were flanking like crazy to get the benefit of their Sneak Attack dice and fix their decreased BAB by +2.)
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Ah, so it seems more that the Druid pulled a Fighter/Rogue move and rushed in while everyone is planning and more annoying everyone else than overshadowing them.
There are a few things you can do, but I would really wait and see id this continues, or if this was more like the player ws just anting some action after a bad day.
1.) you could show the bad side of handling things that way. Maybe the pirates had captives, and because the Druid innitiated an attack, theygot spooked and killed them all, or moved them, and the party doesn't find out tha they could have rescued them right the and there but now have to go track them down and it is even harder to do so.
2.) maybe someone survived and alerts other pirates or whatever to focus on the Druid. Maybe next time, they have a spellcaster cast an illusion, and once the Druid Squids-up, he finds out that there are hidden water breating enemies or invisible nets waiting for them.
3.) if you and the party are wanting some intrigue and non-combat encounters, you can always write in things that either help prevent rash attacks, or that the adventure just fails if there is too much. Not only do they just fail, (meaning little XP or treasure), but this will start getting the other player's characters irritated, and they might just have to let the Druid know it. (I'm not saying they gang up and kill the Druid, but it might be something dealt with in game and they can let the character and player know)
4.) the DM can always step in and basically prevent the character from starting a combatunles they really really want to. When the Druid starts try to attack, maybe they notice something that (hopefully) makes them think again or distracts them a moment. Maybe they notice that the pirates had a rolled up scroll in their pocket, and as the Druid is stealthing into position for an attack, it falls to the ground while the pirates walk off. Hopefully, the Druid will wait and want to see what the scroll is, and if you make it something story related or time sensitive, you might skirt the whole combat. The note might be a note for the captain to meet someone as soon as it's dark (1 hour away), and maybe the party wants to go find out who this other person is? If they attack, theywill not find out who is pulling the strings, (and it should be tied in with something they are all interested in).
5.) you could always present an encounter so that there is no combat option. It is possible that this will be enough for everyone else to have a little fun, and they will all like to have a little combat after that. It could be a big puzzle that requires the Rogues to use their various skills together to overcome, or a social encounter that has no realistic combat option, (like attempting to navigate the court to speak with the king).
One last thing you could try. Druids do have alignment restrictions, and you could always step in and remove their powers for a little is the Druid is not keeping to them. I'n thinking they are Neutral, and from what I understand from your examples, he did just murder and mug some people. Innocent people, in the sense that they did not start the fight, but it instead sounds like the Druid just rushed in and killed them. That could be a very evil thing, and might make the Druid lose spells and abilities until he either repents and gets an atonement or fully converts over to an Evil Druid, which is not instant.
You know that in silted water there sometimes are monsters that, while not much interested in humans, like to eat squids? ;)
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Party make-up... It actually doesn't surprise me that a Druid is the best melee character in THAT party, especially if he's got decent physical stats prior to wildshaping. Everyone in the party was multiclassed except him... Fighter/Rogue, Bard/Rogue, Cleric/Rogue. I don't know the class levels involved, but there's a bunch of self-nerfing(via multiclassing) going on there, where the Druid goes full on 8 levels and looks pretty darn cool in comparison.
That was the first thing I saw that would explain the problem. If we assume every is a 4/4 (for easy math here), then the party is essentially an 8th level Druid, a 4th level Fighter, a 4th level Bard, a 4th level Cleric and three 4th level Rogues. In such a party it just makes sense the Druid is going to be overwhelming.
If the split was 7/1 it would be a much better balanced party. So until we know the levels hard to call that one.
the second thing I saw that was interesting was the Giant Squid stats. Tentacles AND arms have 30 ft reach? ReallY? Arms AND tentacles are the same length? Really? Arms SHOULD have 15ft reach and tentacles 30ft reach. It is more "realistic" (and I HATE when people try to use realism in a FANTASY game but this one makes sense). This would have reduced the probable number of attacks to 2 at most.
The Dire Tiger... unless the bad guys' HP and AC sucked then there was no reason for the Druid to have soloed in 2 rounds. Just what were the other party members doing in the first round?
And again this raises an interesting question... Dire Tiger has Pounce and Rake. Pounce says you can use Rake as part of your full attack. Yet Rake says you MUST begin your round already grappling to use Rake which means you have the grappled condition. So just HOW exactly do you charge WHILE grappled and start a Rake? If you have the grappled condition you cannot move, therefore cannot Charge... duh!
Pounce is just extra special to get to Rake for free, but actually with the Grab special ability, it's possible even without that.
In defense of the rest of the party, Fighter4/Rogue4 is plenty strong, only 1 BAB short (2 if you count Weapon Training, but could be 5/3 and same). Two rogue talents could *be* two feats (weapon finesse or focus and any combat feat). Bard/Rogue... 7/1 would be much better (move action performance). Cleric/Rogue can be a tough path, but no loss of BAB on either of the last two.
One minor thing on the druid - if he doesn't have Multiattack the tentacles attack would be at -5.
For games that aren't starting at higher level, might recall that druids are limited to transforming into creatures they are familiar with.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of multiclassing for exactly this reason.
If you had a Druid/Rogue, no problem.
The pace of combat becomes sort of like a superhero comic at 8th level. A team of superheros will find different ways to share the spotlight with their "superness". But if you have a few guys who only have the powerset of 6th or less, even though they have multiple powersets, you can expect that they still have only mundane solutions to problems.
Yeah, your druid IS superman, but your other characters should be Batman, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman by now.
Imagine the exact same encounter, only swap out one of the multiclassers for a carefully played Wizard of equal level to the Druid. I imagine he would be the one outclassing the Druid at that point. Black Tentacles. Same effect as the squid without risking HP loss.
I feel for you though. Spotlight sharing is the most crucial part of making the game fun, and some players/GMs are just bad at making it happen.
A druid that tried to solo an encounter at my table would almost certainly get his rear end handed back to him, severed from his body. I agree that the other members of the party have weakened themselves with multiclassing, but I think there is something to do with your encounter design here. They can dish out alot of damamge but they also have AC issues, they shouldn't be able to slug it out with a whole encounter on thier own.
Edit: in rereading this post, it seems like I'm being hostile. I'm not. I'm just incredulous - so take that with a grain of salt...
We were in a fight with a pirate captain and a couple of her mates, when the druid wildshaped into a giant squid (in the water) and soloed the encounter (around EL 8-9)...in one round.
This one's pretty hard to believe. You sure you didn't exaggerate a bit?
So, the druid was right next to these guys (well, within 15') as a HUGE threatening monster, and none of them saw him? Or, he was a small hidden druid and spent his first round transforming into a HUGE treatening monster and none of them saw him?
Then he put the beatdown on all of them in a single round? No spells were used, so the druid didn't pre-buff himself? Just his own STR plus what he got from the Wildshape?
Really?
What, were these level 8ish pirates all 90 years old with tons of aging penalties, possibly also suffering from some wasting disease?
Or at least blind and unable to see that HUGE threatening monster approaching them?
Next fight, we were fighting some guards and their captain...also EL 8-9...druid wildshaped into a dire tiger and soloed encounter...in two rounds.
A bit easier to believe since it took two rounds. But what were you three rogues doing? Nothing at all for two rounds?
If you're going to stand around and watch your druid do all the work, then don't complain that he's doing all the work...
If you were helping him for two rounds, then he really didn't solo the encounter, did he?
And just why didn't those guards see that LARGE threatening monster so close that it got two full rounds of attacks? Or did the hidden druid spend his first round Wildshaping then killed them all in one round - and they did nothing when he appeared, like tactically spreading out so they didn't become instant tiger food, then moving in for flanking on the LARGE threatening monster?
Anyone else experienced something like this? What solution would you suggest?
No, because Pathfinder nerfed wildshape (rightfully) to the point that now druids are just guys in foam-rubber monster costumes (too much nerfage, IMO).
In my experience, a well-optimized fighter, or barbarian, or spellcaster with the right spells, can dish out as much death and destruction as an optimized druid.
You mentioned that the druid is combat/Wildshape optimized, but maybe you left out the fact that the three rogue-ish characters were all optimzed for Roleplaying instead of combat? That they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn or dish out any real damage on their own?
Because if those other guys actually had any combat optimization of their own, they ought to at least contribute well enough.
And if the pirates/guards had demonstrated any inkling of survival instict (Hey, maybe all those enemies were just suicidal?) they should have fared better than 1 or two rounds.
Maybe the DM just created cheesy wimpy encounters?
No, because Pathfinder nerfed wildshape (rightfully) to the point that now druids are just guys in foam-rubber monster costumes (too much nerfage, IMO).
Just have to say, this is very much not true. The druid simply can't dump his physical stats. My friend is right now playing a wildshaping druid and has about a 33 str when wildshaped into something huge (he's 8th level). You can't do EVERYTHING, meaning you likely won't be the best at spellcasting, but if all you want from the druid class is wildshape you can build like a fighter or barbarian and be VERY effective.
The Squid... has to expose itself to attack, if nothing else the tentacles, even if the DM isn't as cruel as to start chopping off tentacles, it was VERY attackable.
Not true, unless they have the strike back feat. Reach is reach.
Just have to say, this is very much not true. The druid simply can't dump his physical stats. My friend is right now playing a wildshaping druid and has about a 33 str when wildshaped into something huge (he's 8th level). You can't do EVERYTHING, meaning you likely won't be the best at spellcasting, but if all you want from the druid class is wildshape you can build like a fighter or barbarian and be VERY effective.No, because Pathfinder nerfed wildshape (rightfully) to the point that now druids are just guys in foam-rubber monster costumes (too much nerfage, IMO).
In that case, the combat-optimized 33 STR druid is just a really strong dude in a foam-rubber monster costume.
My point was that he's not the monster. Instead, he's the same old druid that likes whacking things with a scimitar, dressed up in a monster costume with a decent buff from the Wildshape. Very different than 3.5 Wildshape, and far less effective.
You could take the same druid, and hit him with a handful of buffs, and he would be just as deadly in combat. Or you could hit a fighter with those buffs and HE would be even more deadly in combat.
More or less.
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Ok just to set things straight here if by "nerf" you mean made it seriously less powerful before then wildshape was nerfed hard.
If by 'nerfed' you mean made completely worthless then it was not nerfed.
Wild shape was definitely brought down a few notches but is still decent if you focus on it. Before it was awesome even if you didn't focus on it.
We have the same issue in the campaign I'm playing in. Druid stays in Wildshape most of the time and tears the encounter apart. It can take him nearly all his spells but he's doing 50-70hps of damage in a round at 6t level.
Rest of the party don't care. We all still get full xps, treasure etc. and its a free ride. The Druid has a high power curve at low-mid levels which smooths out at later levels.
The encounters are doomed from the get-go. The game is designed that the NPCs will lose and the PCs win. It doesn't matter how this is done.
If other PCs are feeling left out that's down to the players mindset. If it was me I would either find a way to make my PC useful or just coast along reaping the material things like xps without any danger to my PC.
We have the same issue in the campaign I'm playing in. Druid stays in Wildshape most of the time and tears the encounter apart. It can take him nearly all his spells but he's doing 50-70hps of damage in a round at 6t level.
Rest of the party don't care. We all still get full xps, treasure etc. and its a free ride. The Druid has a high power curve at low-mid levels which smooths out at later levels.
The encounters are doomed from the get-go. The game is designed that the NPCs will lose and the PCs win. It doesn't matter how this is done.
If other PCs are feeling left out that's down to the players mindset. If it was me I would either find a way to make my PC useful or just coast along reaping the material things like xps without any danger to my PC.If that's how you like playing D&D, respect for that, but no thanks, I'd rather my character died in an unfair fight (one that was too tough), than having one character steal all the thunder.
To me, this isn't WoW or Diablo, and though I have enjoyed playing both games immensely, that's not what I hope D&D is supposed to be.
D&D is not that. But you can't really complain and he did an optimized character and you guys did not, and he is good at it and you are not, it just makes sense.
I'm sure u r a big AC guy, with good social an hiding skills, which, he is not. He made a character good in fighting, you guys can't complain he is good at it really, can you?
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I'm sure u r a big AC guy, with good social an hiding skills, which, he is not. He made a character good in fighting, you guys can't complain he is good at it really, can you?
I think the core of the complaint is really that the druid's player went and Leeroy Jenkinsed them out of the stuff they were good at and straight into Druid Time starring Druid with guest stars, The Party. If they and the druid had been on the same page, the other players would have likely at least got some time to shine in combat while the druid did his thing.
If that's how you like playing D&D, respect for that, but no thanks, I'd rather my character died in an unfair fight (one that was too tough), than having one character steal all the thunder.
To me, this isn't WoW or Diablo, and though I have enjoyed playing both games immensely, that's not what I hope D&D is supposed to be.
Hmm...Post monster...
You missunderstand me.
The Druid in my campaign is very good at his shtick which is Wildshape and tear up encounters. Beyond that he is "meh".
If we want to gather information or bluff our way past guards that is when the rogue shines. In combat he uses acrobatics to set up flank attacks and gets all stabby with his li'l short swords.
If we want "battle field control" the Wizard whips up Summoned Monster or Glitterdust or Black Tentacles and sits back watching the fun.
Each PC has his own little area of specialisation and the weak points are picked up by other PCs. Remember the saying JOT, Master of None?
What you have got is a player who has focussed on one area (bashing in wildshape) and thats it. From what I can tell from your PC is that you haven't focussed and at the moment is suffering from it. That is the problem with multiclassing, you have a few levels of "suck" before you start to shine. The Druid shines at the moment but give it a few levels and so will yours.
And yes all D&D encounters are designed with a bias towards the PCs otherwise you would have first level scenarios starting with the line "You see five Hill Giants..."
If you don't want to feel like a spare wheel I suggest that you either beat the Druid to the encounter or use acrobatics to get into a position to flank. Multiclassing into three classes will have a detrimental effect when you start off, accept it. You will have your chance to shine but it will take longer.
Xum Wrote "D&D is not that. But you can't really complain and he did an optimized character and you guys did not, and he is good at it and you are not, it just makes sense."
And this.
I think the core of the complaint is really that the druid's player went and Leeroy Jenkinsed them out of the stuff they were good at and straight into Druid Time starring Druid with guest stars, The Party. If they and the druid had been on the same page, the other players would have likely at least got some time to shine in combat while the druid did his thing.
I'm sure u r a big AC guy, with good social an hiding skills, which, he is not. He made a character good in fighting, you guys can't complain he is good at it really, can you?
I don't see it. But anyhow, the other fight showed how combat works for diferent role characters. If you are "roguish" you need postioning, if your "fighterish" you charge, sometimes when you charge you kill a lot faster than the rogue can position, and that's just the way it's supposed to be.
Same thing could happen with a well placed spell by a wizard or cleric type, and it would be unfair for the fighting guy to complain about it, see?
Have the party be surprised by a remorhaz. The druid wants to hit it with how many attacks now?
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I don't see it.
It's right around here:
The fighting happened 1) after some sneaking and using deception (a hat of disguise used to pretend to be a part of the crew, for instance), and 2) when the druid decided he was bored and attacked.Also, this scenario was meant as a use stealth/deception/whatever to get in, get item, get out. Problem I'm having, I guess, is that whatever = combat dominated entirely by the druid. I don't mind a...
Not saying the druid isn't going to be stealing the show in combat, but it seems that he was definitely on a different page regarding the team adventure than the others. Sounds like most of them wanted to pull a heist, the other guy wanted a brawl, everyone built their characters according to their expectations, brawl-guy forced a brawl. I just think that's where most of the grief in the OP lies.
I could be wrong, of course. Not writing that possibility off just yet.
Grab is bashing. So, you don't mind him being better but at the same time you do mind?
Grab is a very valid maneuver, and it isn't fail proof either, of course he has several bonuses and all, but it's not an auto-win. And I guess in a campanign and adventure were you are fighting humanoids most a druid is gonna be very good indeed (Wildshape size increase) that's the way the adventure is working, not really the DRUID per se.
Trying throwing enemies at the PC's which give other members a chance to shine. I doubt the druid has much of a selection of animals that can take on flying foes. And incorporeal undead are virtually immune to a wildshaped druid.
Of course, you could use an evil druid as an encounter too.
I don't see it.It's right around here:
The fighting happened 1) after some sneaking and using deception (a hat of disguise used to pretend to be a part of the crew, for instance), and 2) when the druid decided he was bored and attacked.Also, this scenario was meant as a use stealth/deception/whatever to get in, get item, get out. Problem I'm having, I guess, is that whatever = combat dominated entirely by the druid. I don't mind a...
Not saying the druid isn't going to be stealing the show in combat, but it seems that he was definitely on a different page regarding the team adventure than the others. Sounds like most of them wanted to pull a heist, the other guy wanted a brawl, everyone built their characters according to their expectations, brawl-guy forced a brawl. I just think that's where most of the grief in the OP lies.
I could be wrong, of course. Not writing that possibility off just yet.
I'm the GM who ran the session, and based on my post-game musings, I'd say that you are pretty much spot on, Mikaze. The Druid was awe-inspiring in combat, but there were many reasons why that was and why it turned out to be problematic.
I'm drafting a longer post about the session, but the short version is, yeah, it became the Druid Show co-staring three deception-oriented PCs with a wrecked plan.
Short comments to clarify:
- It was an Organized Play scenario (No Plunder, No Pay), prepped at a very short notice.
- All characters were created the same day, independently of each others, and I did not see them in detail until the game started.
- The druid asked specifically to get Extra Wildshape, even though it is not a PFRPG feat. I allowed this, as I did not expect him to use more than three wildshapes per day anyway. In hindsight, I would probably not do this again.
- I ran all encounters and NPC tactics as described in the scenario.
- Had we not stopped where we did (after only two encounters), some of the following encounters would have made the Druids wildshape less useful.
- Much of the problem, as I see it, stem from different player goals and a lack of team-play rather than any problems with the druid class as such.
Anyways, as I've said before...I don't mind the druid being better at bashing than I am...I mind him being able to make me obsolete. Grab + insane CMB and possibly Constrict does that quite obviously.But I guess I'm gonna make a druid next time...
Why is he making you obsolete?
Can the Druid find traps and disable them?Can he use acrobatics to set up flanking attacks?
Can he do sneak attack damage?
Does he out stealth you?
Is he better than your PC at Sense Motive?
Is his UMD better than your PCs?
Because I didn't make a character who wanted to find and disable traps, for one. No, he doesn't out-stealth me (except when he Wild Shapes into some unassuming animal, in which case he not only out-stealths me, but also moves better...and I get it...that's what druids are supposed to do). I'd assume his Sense Motive is slightly lower than mine, but not by much. No, he can't sneak attack, but what use do I have of sneak attacking someone who is already dead, for all practical purposes.
So how does he make your PC obsolete?
He can out bash you but so can a fighter.What do you want your PC's role in the party to be?
I'm not trying to be snarky but in order to help I really need to understand what the real problem is. From what you have posted you seem to be hung up on a PC who can out fight your PC and from what you have posted (4FTR/3Rogue/1Duelist) thats no surprise. If you want to be a damage dealer sneak I think you have gone the wrong way about it.
Mate, you are having more of a problem with your own character. As stated earlier, this happens with multiclassed builds, and it should happen. For now you just entered your prestige, soon when you get some more neat abilities you will improve significantly.
That's the only thing I see as a problem really, it does look like you are unhappy with your character, and there isn't a problem with that, but you should wait a little bit longer before judging it all.
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Well, that was definitely part of it...we'd agreed on doing x, suddenly he forces us to switch to y. Yes, he was CN and he had a plot reason for doing it, but still sucks...Anyways, as I've said before...I don't mind the druid being better at bashing than I am...I mind him being able to make me obsolete. Grab + insane CMB and possibly Constrict does that quite obviously.
But I guess I'm gonna make a druid next time...
How does he have an insane CMB? It only changes by the size and strength changes from his new form. 3 from strength, and 2 from size.....+5 CMB from his normal. Not exactly insane. He doesn't get multiattack so unless a feat was taken for that his attacks are all at -5 and trying to hit a bunch of 8th level pirates with a druid BAB, +3 to hit and damage over that and a -5 to hits isn't insane. Also, him slaughtering all of the 8th level pirates with 1d6+7 damage and only a +5 to his normal CMB for grabs (which may still get the -5 for not having multiattack, not sure on that) just sounds like either math was wrong or there is a good amount of exaggeration going on about his abilities.
Party make-up... It actually doesn't surprise me that a Druid is the best melee character in THAT party, especially if he's got decent physical stats prior to wildshaping. Everyone in the party was multiclassed except him... Fighter/Rogue, Bard/Rogue, Cleric/Rogue. I don't know the class levels involved, but there's a bunch of self-nerfing(via multiclassing) going on there, where the Druid goes full on 8 levels and looks pretty darn cool in comparison.
(As a side note, I hope the 3 psuedo-Rogues were flanking like crazy to get the benefit of their Sneak Attack dice and fix their decreased BAB by...
Don't know about the other characters, but mine was Ftr 4 / Rogue 3 / Duelist 1, AC 23 (without using Combat Expertise), +14 for 2d6+3 damage on a vital strike (with +2d6 on a sneak attack). Yes, a straight fighter with a greatsword would have put me to shame, but he'd not have been able to sneak in, bluff, etc., which we'd been told would be a feature in the adventure.
Now, if it is necessary to go exclusively for best build to be effective compared to a druid who doesn't use one spell, there's something wrong IMO.
And as to the flanking...we didn't get a chance...encounter was over before we got that far...
The problem isn't that you don't have the "best build," the problem is that your build is just pretty bad altogether. Duelist and vital strike are not good builds for your type of character - you honestly would've been better with just staying as a straight rogue.
You're comparing a straight druid with assumably a good build, with a fairly low build, and that's a bigger problem then him being a druid.
As for the grabbing, as someone else mentioned, he really doesn't get a big buff to CMB, especially since he's a druid and thus has medium BAB, not good, so I'm wondering how he became this grabbing machine.
Ok, this may sound like whining or ranting, and perhaps it is...but...
Was playing a one-shot tonight, level 8, party including a fighter/rogue (swashbuckler type), bard/rogue (also kinda swashbuckler type), cleric/rogue and a druid.
The thing that caught my attention is you have party of 3 multi-class rogues and a full class druid. From my experience multi-classing gimps you. There are some exception of course but for the most part it does more harm than good.
In that case, the combat-optimized 33 STR druid is just a really strong dude in a foam-rubber monster costume.
My point was that he's not the monster. Instead, he's the same old druid that likes whacking things with a scimitar, dressed up in a monster costume with a decent buff from the Wildshape. Very different than 3.5 Wildshape, and far less effective.
You could take the same druid, and hit him with a handful of buffs, and he would be just as deadly in combat. Or you could hit a fighter with those buffs and HE would be even more deadly in combat.
More or less.
He's not the monster...he just has all the attack forms, immunities, poison, special attacks, movement forms and speed, and perception (scent, blindsight) as that monster, and a bonus to his abilities that CAN'T be duplicated by other buffs until very high level. How exactly is that different than 3.5 other than mentioned above?
A "handful of buffs" would not give that druid a potentially +8 size bonus to str, con, and natural armor as well as a myriad of abilities like pounce, rake, poison, constrict, trample, blindsight, etc etc.
I'm sorry but the only difference now is that druids are not GODS who dump their physical stats knowing that they'll be in wild form 24/7 with STR/DEX/CON of 20+ each by level 8. Now if they want to be that they have things they must give up, which is balanced.
Well, that was definitely part of it...we'd agreed on doing x, suddenly he forces us to switch to y. Yes, he was CN and he had a plot reason for doing it, but still sucks...Anyways, as I've said before...I don't mind the druid being better at bashing than I am...I mind him being able to make me obsolete. Grab + insane CMB and possibly Constrict does that quite obviously.
But I guess I'm gonna make a druid next time...
How does he have an insane CMB? It only changes by the size and strength changes from his new form. 3 from strength, and 2 from size.....+5 CMB from his normal. Not exactly insane. He doesn't get multiattack so unless a feat was taken for that his attacks are all at -5 and trying to hit a bunch of 8th level pirates with a druid BAB, +3 to hit and damage over that and a -5 to hits isn't insane. Also, him slaughtering all of the 8th level pirates with 1d6+7 damage and only a +5 to his normal CMB for grabs (which may still get the -5 for not having multiattack, not sure on that) just sounds like either math was wrong or there is a good amount of exaggeration going on about his abilities.
Well assuming that this druid read Treantmonks guide, he probably had strength as his primary stat, perhaps a belt of strength +2 or +4. So then we are talking a 26 strength as a huge animal. +6 BAB, +8 strength bonus, +2 for size, +16 CMB. 8th level pirate has prabably an 20 CMD (+2 dex, +2 str, +6 BAB, assuming he's a multiclassed or a rogue). As long as he got enough attacks, he could grapple 3 of them without much struggle. Next round he gets a +5 bonus to Maneuver them all into the sea, where they then drown. at least that's how I see it going down.
Well assuming that this druid read Treantmonks guide, he probably had strength as his primary stat, perhaps a belt of strength +2 or +4. So then we are talking a 26 strength as a huge animal. +6 BAB, +8 strength bonus, +2 for size, +16 CMB. 8th level pirate has prabably an 20 CMD (+2 dex, +2 str, +6 BAB, assuming he's a multiclassed or a rogue). As long as he got enough attacks, he could grapple 3 of them without much struggle. Next round he gets a +5 bonus to Maneuver them all into the sea, where they then drown. at least that's how I see it going down.
Well, that was definitely part of it...we'd agreed on doing x, suddenly he forces us to switch to y. Yes, he was CN and he had a plot reason for doing it, but still sucks...Anyways, as I've said before...I don't mind the druid being better at bashing than I am...I mind him being able to make me obsolete. Grab + insane CMB and possibly Constrict does that quite obviously.
But I guess I'm gonna make a druid next time...
How does he have an insane CMB? It only changes by the size and strength changes from his new form. 3 from strength, and 2 from size.....+5 CMB from his normal. Not exactly insane. He doesn't get multiattack so unless a feat was taken for that his attacks are all at -5 and trying to hit a bunch of 8th level pirates with a druid BAB, +3 to hit and damage over that and a -5 to hits isn't insane. Also, him slaughtering all of the 8th level pirates with 1d6+7 damage and only a +5 to his normal CMB for grabs (which may still get the -5 for not having multiattack, not sure on that) just sounds like either math was wrong or there is a good amount of exaggeration going on about his abilities.
If the druid really min-maxed and bought a 16 STR+2 for race (human or half-orc) that's 18. +4 belt by level 8, +2 from level, that's already a 24. +6 from wildshaping, for a 30 str and +10 modifier. When he wildshapes into the giant squid he gets the Grab ability which gives him +4 to CMB when attempting to grapple, and he's huge so another +2. 10(Str)+6(BAB)+4(Grab)+2(Size)=22 easily by level 8.
We have the same issue in the campaign I'm playing in. Druid stays in Wildshape most of the time and tears the encounter apart. It can take him nearly all his spells but he's doing 50-70hps of damage in a round at 6t level.
There are ways around that.
Those spells don't last forever. Once he uses "nearly all his spells" and shreds an encounter or two, he's not going have very many spells left for later encounters that occur after those spells wear off. Once that happens, during those later encounters, he's back to just being an unbuffed guy in a foam rubber monster constume.
Active spells can be dispelled, removing buffs from your druid. Monsters can live in antimagic areas (tedious if it's overused, but fun once in a while).
Quite frankly, if I'm DMing and I have a player that dominates through buffing himself up and wading into combat covered in a mountain of spells that trivialize my encounters, I will change the course of the game to where we will mainly fight things that can handle that. For example, drow come to mind - nobody is surprised when every drow encounter has a couple spellcasters in it, and those spellcasters love debuffing the PCs.
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Druids kick-ass. I made a half-orc druid with 18 STR + 2 racial = 20 at 1st, had him take Craft Wondrous as a feat so he made a belt of STR +6, then took +1 STR at 4th and 8th... STR 28 before wildshaping... in huge animal form, STR 34... had him take Craft Arms and Armor as well so next move is to improve his Dragonhide Plate to +5, his heavy shield to +5, then after that, he's going to save his pennies to craft a book of STR +5, for STR 39 in huge animal form... then have the bard in the party cast rage on ya for an extra +2 and I'll be at STR 41...
By level 16 this druid would be STR 43 with all the above accounted for... I think this is the maximum STR score you can achieve in the game, as a druid, with the allowable wild shapes... at level 17 the druid gets access to the shapechange spell which may grant forms (such as form of the Giant II) which would raise his STR to 45 or more... but as a druid, without shapechange, I think 43 is the highest (which includes rage spell)
If anyone else knows how to raise the STR higher please let me know...
Cheers,
PDK