Druids - party poopers...?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

It was done with 3.5 rule set and PF. The PF druids had it a bit easier at the very start and a bit of work towards the end. The 3.5 druids had to pretty much completely rely on animal companions at the start and utterly annihilated the mid and late game. Hope that clears things up.


This is stretching my credulity to the breaking point.

Am I to understand that someone actually ran, what, 11 or 12 groups through RotRL using 3.5 rules and then another 11 or 12 groups through it using Pathfinder rules?

And since Pathfinder has been in print for what now, 7 months? 8 months? That someone managed to run all 11 or 12 groups through RotRL in 8 months? That's about 3 weeks each, give or take, to go through the whole AP?

I truly admire your diligence, whether it be to actually perform such grand testing or to artfully prevaricate on a grand enough stage as to perpetuate this thread. Either way, well done!


Cold Napalm wrote:
It was done with 3.5 rule set and PF. The PF druids had it a bit easier at the very start and a bit of work towards the end. The 3.5 druids had to pretty much completely rely on animal companions at the start and utterly annihilated the mid and late game. Hope that clears things up.

Did you run this core only, or did you allow items/feats/spells from elsewhere?


As he bought up healing belts it was anon-core game it seems. So non-core with a mix of 3.5 and PF druids.

Dude if ya run a single class party of any class though anything premade you will have to adjust. It does not matter if it's 4 fighters or 4 druids you will need to change things.

Grand Lodge

Charender wrote:

1) The orginal comment I was replying to did not mention PF druids being broken gets old fast. And considering that the complaints about PF druids is significantly lower, assuming this comment applies to 3.5 druids as well is quite valid. But hey it maybe only about PF druids...but I took it to mean druids in all editions. So if you don´t like that premise...tough, either louis can come can clarify that he meant PF only or my assumption and argument stands.

2) Or you can still pick an animal companion. Having the option to gimp yourself isn´t a good balancing point to make a class uber. Not that the new animal companions are uber mind you...just a logical flaw in class design.

3) For out of combat healing, healing belts win over both classes. And wands of CLW is generally a better idea then blowing spells slots...especially if it´s within 8 hours of your prayer time.

4) Yes the druid can´t do it all. They have to pick...but tell me, can ANY other class do that? Can a fighter, paladin, ranger, bard or rogue be made to be a better wizard then a wizard? Can a wizard or sorcerer be made fight better then a fighter? No? Well the druid can. And even if they can´t do it all at the same time like in 3.5, that is STILL overpowered. Less then 3.5 for sure, but yeah it´s still got some tasty tasty crunch for the powergamers.

5) Umm yeah, I need 8 druid levels (for the +12 to stealth) and one of my skill point going into stealth to beat the a rogue/ranger. Oh my god that is SOOOO much investment *sarcasm*. I mean honestly yeah a shadowdancer can HiPS...but you give up quite a bit to do that. The druid is better then a rogue/ranger that isn´t gimping themselves for HiPS for one skill point/level and the virtue of being a druid. And at level 20, it´s as much as you want...not that you generally run out of wildshape in most cases after level 8.

Grand Lodge

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
It was done with 3.5 rule set and PF. The PF druids had it a bit easier at the very start and a bit of work towards the end. The 3.5 druids had to pretty much completely rely on animal companions at the start and utterly annihilated the mid and late game. Hope that clears things up.
Did you run this core only, or did you allow items/feats/spells from elsewhere?

Well we used items from the MiC...most of which was just the healing belt...but the feats and spells were core for each system.

DM blake, if you will note, we just did the encounters, in sequence...it wasn´t really a play through. You can get through 2 books a session if you do that. Some, like the wizards TPKed pretty early so there was no reason to continue. In fact there was quite a few TPKs so it took less time then you may have thought. It is a bunch of people who are uber RAW oriented and talk about game mechanics and theory for fun. Yeah, it´s really weird for people unfamiliar with people like us :P . I just realized we also didn´t test out the bard along with the monk as well in either edition. Also didn´t do the PF barbarian. The sorcerer and wizards were combined as well. Didn´t feel the need to try each seperately. In anycase, we may get to the bards and monk and the PF barbarian after we finish the campaign we are on. But then again, by then the APG should be out so we can sink out teeth into that crunch :) .


Cold Napalm wrote:
Charender wrote:


Bad logic is bad logic.

Unless you are running a druid who has an 18 strength, con, dex, and wisdom, gets 2 feats every level, and is allowed to take fighter only feats that isn't going to happen.

A druid who optimized for melee combat can replace the fighter when fully buffed. They will be busy clawing things and use all their buffs on themselves so they will not even be close to a wizard in nuking or battlefield control. Even in a sneaky form they will not have the skills to outsneak a rogue. Their healing will be pretty much limited to wands of cure so they won't even come close to a cleric there.

So a fully buffed melee focused druid is a fighter + half a rogue. Without buffs they are 3/4 of a fighter.

1) Your missing part of the post...this is partly about 3.5 druid. 3.5 druid did not need str or dex. Yes the PF druid is more balanced...that is NOT in argument.

2) Your forgetting the animal companion. A class feature that was worth a fighter in 3.5...less in PF, but still notable.

3) Wands...pft. We used healing belts or did you not bother with reading that part? Even the all cleric party used them for out of combat healing. In combat healing...barring the heal spell is quite sub-optimal and rarely comes up as a valid option.

4) Who said the PF druid party was all wildshapers? I did mention that one was a wild shaper, one a hybrid and 2 were casters no? The caster druids can take over BC/Buffs/De-Buffs quite well thank you very much. With the hybrid guy doing mostly buffs.

5) In 3.5 your right, a druid can´t outsneak a rogue. In PF...oh HELL yeah they can. Diminutive size gives you a rather large bonus that the flat +3 to stealth that rogues get for it being in class and dex prime stats can´t make up for. Assuming the druid has 10 dex and keeps stealth maxed like the rogue, that means unless the rogue has 28 dex, the druid is a better sneak. Not including magic items as both can have the same magic item.

I thought this was about the PF druid, since that is what the OP was complaining about. I can see the 3.5 druid owning an AP.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Charender wrote:
1) The orginal comment I was replying to did not mention PF druids being broken gets old fast. And considering that the complaints about PF druids is significantly lower, assuming this comment applies to 3.5 druids as well is quite valid.

It is assumed PF classes are being discussed unless otherwise stated. It has been that way for quiet a while now.

PF Druids and 3.5 druids are different enough that you can't really compare them when you talk about power levels.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:


I thought this was about the PF druid, since that is what the OP was complaining about. I can see the 3.5 druid owning an AP.

Yeah...the 3.5 druids went through the last 3 books of the AP in about 6 hours. The PF druids made it through pretty easy...but it was nowhere near that level of cakewalk.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Charender wrote:

1) The orginal comment I was replying to did not mention PF druids being broken gets old fast. And considering that the complaints about PF druids is significantly lower, assuming this comment applies to 3.5 druids as well is quite valid. But hey it maybe only about PF druids...but I took it to mean druids in all editions. So if you don´t like that premise...tough, either louis can come can clarify that he meant PF only or my assumption and argument stands.

Oh so now we have to specifically state that we are talking about PF only on the PF boards? Would you go to the 3.5 boards and assume people are talking about pathfinder unless they state otherwise?

I guess I need to add a "EVERYTHING IN THE POST IS ONLY REFERING TO PATHFINDER" disclaimer on every one of my posts now...

Or we can assume everyone here is talking about pathfinder unless they specify otherwise.

Quote:

2) Or you can still pick an animal companion. Having the option to gimp yourself isn´t a good balancing point to make a class uber. Not that the new animal companions are uber mind you...just a logical flaw in class design.

Dropping the animal companion for a domain isn't gimping yourself. in fact it is probably necessary to get a good caster build.

Also, a huge part of animal companions being too powerful is because lots of DM don't enforce the trick and handle animal rules for animal companions. They just let the player run the companion like they do their PC. This leads to the animal being played as smarter than it really is.

Quote:

3) For out of combat healing, healing belts win over both classes. And wands of CLW is generally a better idea then blowing spells slots...especially if it´s within 8 hours of your prayer time.

Hmm healing belts, not seeing those in the PF SRD either....

So you have a homebrew/3.5 magic item that makes cleric obsolete, good for you. How is that at all relevant to my point that druid are inferior in every way to clerics at healing?

Quote:

4) Yes the druid can´t do it all. They have to pick...but tell me, can ANY other class do that? Can a fighter, paladin, ranger, bard or rogue be made to be a better wizard then a wizard? Can a wizard or sorcerer be made fight better then a fighter? No? Well the druid can. And even if they can´t do it all at the same time like in 3.5, that is STILL overpowered. Less then 3.5 for sure, but yeah it´s still got some tasty tasty crunch for the powergamers.

Sorry, but I have yet to see a druid build that beats a wizard or sorc for casting. Treantmonk's guide gets you close, but a properly optimized wizard is still better. Of course an optimized character beats an unoptimized one any day regardless of class, but that is a different discussion.

For the record, a cleric can. A cleric who focuses on archery or melee can beat a fighter with buffs up. They can emulate a wizard with the right build and spell selection. A cleric with the trickery domain will outsneak any druid(Invisibility > +12 stealth).

Quote:

5) Umm yeah, I need 8 druid levels (for the +12 to stealth) and one of my skill point going into stealth to beat the a rogue/ranger. Oh my god that is SOOOO much investment *sarcasm*. I mean honestly yeah a shadowdancer can HiPS...but you give up quite a bit to do that. The druid is better then a rogue/ranger that isn´t gimping themselves for HiPS for one skill point/level and the virtue of being a druid. And at level 20, it´s as much as you want...not that you generally run out of wildshape in most cases after level 8.

Ooooookay, fine.

A. Rangers get HIPS. I thought rogues had a talent option for it, but they do not.
B. Rogues get Fast stealth and can avoid the penalty for moving fast.
C. Invisibility(+20 stealth) > +12 stealth. So a bard who puts max ranks into stealth is the best sneak out there.


Cold Napalm wrote:


1) The orginal comment I was replying to did not mention PF druids being broken gets old fast. And considering that the complaints about PF druids is significantly lower, assuming this comment applies to 3.5 druids as well is quite valid. But hey it maybe only about PF druids...but I took it to mean druids in all editions. So if you don´t like that premise...tough, either louis can come can clarify that he meant PF only or my assumption and argument stands.

I did speak about PF druids, which I initially thought this thread was about (like most threads in Paizo's PRPG forums). Sorry if it sparked flames in a way or another.

Grand Lodge

Louis IX wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:


1) The orginal comment I was replying to did not mention PF druids being broken gets old fast. And considering that the complaints about PF druids is significantly lower, assuming this comment applies to 3.5 druids as well is quite valid. But hey it maybe only about PF druids...but I took it to mean druids in all editions. So if you don´t like that premise...tough, either louis can come can clarify that he meant PF only or my assumption and argument stands.

I did speak about PF druids, which I initially thought this thread was about (like most threads in Paizo's PRPG forums). Sorry if it sparked flames in a way or another.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Not your fault since it was an assumption I made followed by assumptions others made about my assumptions. Which does indeed lead to various levels of stupidity ;) . No biggie.


As far as wild shape goes the new thing of having one or two major encounters in a single "day" makes it more likely that the druid can wildshape and stir things up....

On the other hand a good DM will make things a little more difficult for the Druid

for example druid turns into a big cat and wants to pounce on BBEGs....

He pounces the illusion of BBEGs and now finds that BBEGs are actually on the far side of an obstacle that he can not (in his current form) get around.....

Druid is forced to wildshape or (come out of wildshape) or cast a spell (in wildshape) to get to BBEGs.....

Now druid has either spent a spell or a wildshape use to get to BBEGs.....

Most BBEGs do not want to melee with all the PCs at the same time!!!

Jon Brazer Enterprises

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Things that Fighters are good at that Druids suck at:

1) Ranged Combat. Druids can turn into just about any animal in the book, but generally animals have no ranged attack. Sure a non-shaped druid can use a bow of some kind, but they lose all their wild-shaped bonuses. If a Druid is dominating melee combat, the DM should put a ranged combatant or two on a ledge and fire arrows off at the party. The fighter can pick up a bow and fire back. The combatant might be out of sneak attack range for the rogues, but they still will be able to hit. The druid ... won't.

2) Taking lots of damage. Druids have decent hp and armor class, but the fighter should beat them in both counts every time. Even a Dex based fighter/rogue should still lead the druid. Without magical protection, a druid is capped at hide armor, and if that armor isn't wild (a +3 bonus in addition to the minimum +1 for the armor) they can't take it with them. If a wildshaped druid is doing lots of damage to the NPCs, the NPCs should do lots of damage back. I can't tell you how many times our party druid has been in negatives or dead (and immediately brought back) because all the NPCs identified the druid as the biggest threat. So they put the beat down on him.

3) Master multiple weapons. A wildshaped druid has a number of attack options, but at the end of the day, they are all natural. In that respect, the druid is very limited. Sure anyone can throw a dagger. But a fighter can also wield and effectively use a +1 throwing returning rapier. Now he can use that rapier at a 60 ft range (with range penalties) every round. Add Far Shot and those range penalties are halved. Get it within 30 ft, and the fighter/rogue can sneak attack. If he's got the Improved Critical feat or keen edge spell on him, he's crit threating on a 15-20 (while the druid can at best have a 19-20). But then a large creature comes around, the fighter puts away his rapier and pulls out a Ranseur or a Guisarme. Now, not only does he have reach (just like the large wildshaped druid) but he also can do trip and disarm (depending on the weapon). He can also find a bastard sword that is more powerful than his own and wield it like a long sword with no penalty. Then do a ranged trip with a set of bolas. Fighters should never limit themselves to one weapon. Once druids get so high, they almost never use anything else but natural weapons.

4) Lots and lots of feats. By 8th level, a non-human druid has 4 feats. Compare that to a 8th level human fighter. He has 10. Even a non-human Fighter 4/Rogue 4 has 7 feats. A quality feat build with this: Weapon Focus (shortbow)>Dazzling Display>Shatter Defenses, Persuasive, Point Blank Shot>Precise Shot>Rapid Shot. This sets up a standard attack method for you. Round 1: Get within 30 ft of your enemies and intimidate them. Your intimidate should be high for this build, like a +16 minimum (8 ranks, +3 favored class, +2 Feat, +3 Cha bonus). At level 8 you should be rolling against a DC ~21. You have to roll a 5 to get them all shaken for 1 round. If you roll a 15, they are shaken for 3 rounds. That helps out the whole group. Round 2: Rapid shot into two targets. Those two are flat footed for a full round. (Sneak Attack time) No spells required.

You'll notice that the first two are suggestions for the GM and the second two are suggestions for the players. So my best advice is: talk to the GM and look at what you can do differently.

The Exchange

Bruno Kristensen wrote:

Was playing a one-shot tonight, level 8, party including a fighter/rogue (swashbuckler type), bard/rogue (also kinda swashbuckler type), cleric/rogue and a druid.

Anyone else experienced something like this? What solution would you suggest?

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet because I haven't read most of the thread, but my suggestion would be for the others in the group to play more powerful combat-oriented characters. This group is just a bunch of light combat skirmishers.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Demoyn wrote:
Bruno Kristensen wrote:

Was playing a one-shot tonight, level 8, party including a fighter/rogue (swashbuckler type), bard/rogue (also kinda swashbuckler type), cleric/rogue and a druid.

Anyone else experienced something like this? What solution would you suggest?

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet because I haven't read most of the thread, but my suggestion would be for the others in the group to play more powerful combat-oriented characters. This group is just a bunch of light combat skirmishers.

It has indeed been mentioned.

The Exchange

Kolokotroni wrote:
It has indeed been mentioned.

I figured I'd be late to the party, I just wanted to rub it in a bit. :)


KenderKin wrote:

As far as wild shape goes the new thing of having one or two major encounters in a single "day" makes it more likely that the druid can wildshape and stir things up....

On the other hand a good DM will make things a little more difficult for the Druid

for example druid turns into a big cat and wants to pounce on BBEGs....

He pounces the illusion of BBEGs and now finds that BBEGs are actually on the far side of an obstacle that he can not (in his current form) get around.....

Druid is forced to wildshape or (come out of wildshape) or cast a spell (in wildshape) to get to BBEGs.....

Now druid has either spent a spell or a wildshape use to get to BBEGs.....

Most BBEGs do not want to melee with all the PCs at the same time!!!

One of the Druids I played had taken a dip in Barbarian. Since I wanted him to be efficient for WildShape, he had a pretty decent Str score. I remember an encounter in which the party killed a Rhemorhaz in one round, my character having contributed to most of the damage (while one of us was being masticated). Lucky day for my dice rolls. Later during that adventure, I decided to WildShape into a Fire Elemental during an encounter with a kind of giant spider, but said spider appeared to be immune to fire for a reason (I don't really remember the GM's explanation, but I recall he mentioned "demonic"). My druid reverted to his normal shape and proceeded to beat it with his greataxe.

The conclusion is: wildshape can be cool, but there's always the possibility that it will be completely useless. And with precious few uses per day, the druid can find himself devoid of alternate shapes quickly. If you have a sadistic GM, that will be the moment he pops out an encounter in which an alternate shape would have helped...


Couldn't of done it in one round... Move to the water and wild shape round one... Round two, maneuver to attack and attack (if has to move doesnt get all eight squid attacks) couldnt possibly kill three 6 level characters in one round...


Bruno Kristensen wrote:

Ok, this may sound like whining or ranting, and perhaps it is...but...

Was playing a one-shot tonight, level 8, party including a fighter/rogue (swashbuckler type), bard/rogue (also kinda swashbuckler type), cleric/rogue and a druid.

We were in a fight with a pirate captain and a couple of her mates, when the druid wildshaped into a giant squid (in the water) and soloed the encounter (around EL 8-9)...in one round.

Next fight, we were fighting some guards and their captain...also EL 8-9...druid wildshaped into a dire tiger and soloed encounter...in two rounds.

Now, the player of the druid was having ok fun, but the rest of us were...mildly bored to put it mildly...

Anyone else experienced something like this? What solution would you suggest?

Thanks for your time...

Minor threadjack. This thread has made me so happy. I defended druid's combat prowess in multiple threads when the final version of pathfinder came out against people saying they sucked now. The fact that someone thinks they're overpowered just made me feel gratified. Personally I feel they are on par with other classes. Your party could be pooped as easily by a level 8 bow fighter who full attacked for 2 rounds killing everyone in sight just as easily.


Bruno Kristensen wrote:
What solution would you suggest?

Evil Druid.


Isn't there a thread somewhere on these boards decrying the over-power of every base class in PF?


KenderKin wrote:
Isn't there a thread somewhere on these boards decrying the over-power of every base class in PF?

I was thinking the same thing...

And most of the time its looking like the fault lies with the other players!
Rogues are too powerful because they sneak attack...
Fighters are too powerful because they do lots of damage...
Druids are too Uber because they can be built that way...
Wizards are too powerful because they can cast spells...
Clerics are too powerful because they can cast 9thlevel spells, 3/4 BAB and wear armor...
Eldritch Knight is too powerful because.........I'll stop at that one :)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Spacelard wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
Isn't there a thread somewhere on these boards decrying the over-power of every base class in PF?

I was thinking the same thing...

And most of the time its looking like the fault lies with the other players!
Rogues are too powerful because they sneak attack...
Fighters are too powerful because they do lots of damage...
Druids are too Uber because they can be built that way...
Wizards are too powerful because they can cast spells...
Clerics are too powerful because they can cast 9thlevel spells, 3/4 BAB and wear armor...
Eldritch Knight is too powerful because.........I'll stop at that one :)

You forgot Paladin smite is Evil.

So, 7 of the 11 core classes are overpowered. Hmmm, interesting.

And the newcomers:
Summoner is overpowered win because it behaves similar to a druid which is already overpowered.
We had at one point a thread about the cavalier but that was pre final APG playtest so does that count?


Kolokotroni wrote:

We had at one point a thread about the cavalier but that was pre final APG playtest so does that count?

YEP


I might start a thread about Experts...I mean come on they are way overpowered!
Yea I forgot Paladins...
Rangers, pfft so OTT against their favored enemy I mean what is that all about.
Bards, perfect chassis for a Ftr/Mu so they must be overpowered. And they get huge bonuses on Knowledge Skills which is unfair on my 7INT fighter. I must get a feat so I can swap my modifiers around...


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Spacelard wrote:

I might start a thread about Experts...I mean come on they are way overpowered!

Yea I forgot Paladins...
Rangers, pfft so OTT against their favored enemy I mean what is that all about.
Bards, perfect chassis for a Ftr/Mu so they must be overpowered. And they get huge bonuses on Knowledge Skills which is unfair on my 7INT fighter. I must get a feat so I can swap my modifiers around...

actually maybe im just losing my mind, but wasnt there a thread about the ranger's favored enemy being too strong? Not sure.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Spacelard wrote:

I might start a thread about Experts...I mean come on they are way overpowered!

Yea I forgot Paladins...
Rangers, pfft so OTT against their favored enemy I mean what is that all about.
Bards, perfect chassis for a Ftr/Mu so they must be overpowered. And they get huge bonuses on Knowledge Skills which is unfair on my 7INT fighter. I must get a feat so I can swap my modifiers around...
actually maybe im just losing my mind, but wasnt there a thread about the ranger's favored enemy being too strong? Not sure.

Oh my!

I laughed so hard I hurt!
Dunno but I would bet everything I own on there was.


Maybe everyone should play adepts....

Surely the adept is not overpowered!


KenderKin wrote:

Maybe everyone should play adepts....

Surely the adept is not overpowered!

OMG, have you even LOOKED at the adept spell list! Cleric and Wizards spell on the same list!!!!! NERF!!!!

Feel better?


Charender wrote:
KenderKin wrote:

Maybe everyone should play adepts....

Surely the adept is not overpowered!

OMG, have you even LOOKED at the adept spell list! Cleric and Wizards spell on the same list!!!!! NERF!!!!

Feel better?

Sorry my mistake. Just looked at the adept spell list, you are right it is Too powerful....

Adept Spell List
Adepts choose their spells from the following list.

0 Level: create water, detect magic, ghost sound, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic, stabilize, touch of fatigue.

1st Level: bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, endure elements, obscuring mist, protection from chaos, protection from evil, protection from good, protection from law, sleep.

2nd Level: aid, animal trance, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, invisibility, mirror image, resist energy, scorching ray, see invisibility, web.

3rd Level: animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deeper darkness, lightning bolt, neutralize poison, remove curse, remove disease, tongues.

4th Level: cure critical wounds, minor creation, polymorph, restoration, stoneskin, wall of fire.

5th Level: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, heal, major creation, raise dead, true seeing, wall of stone.

I think papa smurf must have been an adept....
and gargomel was obviously a wizard/archmage


Spacelard wrote:
I might start a thread about Experts...I mean come on they are way overpowered!

please, please do that would be hilarious. I want to see it broken using just PF core.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
I might start a thread about Experts...I mean come on they are way overpowered!
please, please do that would be hilarious. I want to see it broken using just PF core.

New feat

Rapid research

requirement
Book finesse feat

.......


KenderKin wrote:
grasshopper_ea wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
I might start a thread about Experts...I mean come on they are way overpowered!
please, please do that would be hilarious. I want to see it broken using just PF core.

New feat

Rapid research

requirement
Book finesse feat

.......

New Feat

Prerequisite: commoner level 1
Underdog [General]
When making any d20 Roll in which you have less than a 50% chance of success you may use the highest modifier of any party member instead of your own. If the roll results in a failure you may choose to roll again. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to your commoner level + the highest stat modifier of any party member.
Normal: Your commoner dies.


grasshopper_ea wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
I might start a thread about Experts...I mean come on they are way overpowered!
please, please do that would be hilarious. I want to see it broken using just PF core.

The 10th level Expert

STR14,DEX16, CON12, INT10, WIS10, CHA14
60hps +3 INTITATIVE +4/+6/+7 Saves
A select few skills
+11 Acrobatics, +15 Craft Weapons, +14 Ride, +14 Stealth, +20 UMD
Traits: dangerously curious, sacred touch
Feats: Prof:Comp Short Bow, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Magical Aptitde.
With his home made +3 bow +11/+6 d6+9 with Deadly Aim.
No other kit but he is a viable character.

The Exchange

Charender wrote:

OMG, have you even LOOKED at the adept spell list! Cleric and Wizards spell on the same list!!!!! NERF!!!!

Feel better?

I had never bothered to look at that list before. All the cure spells, burning hands, and invisibility on the same list? I'm thinking about playing an adept in my next game!


baleful polymorph

alone is overpowered


HELL of a necro, son. Well done


I guess they deleted their post?


Heh must have.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Damn that shoplifter...


Spacelard wrote:
The encounters are doomed from the get-go. The game is designed that the NPCs will lose and the PCs win. It doesn't matter how this is done.

I never GM with that mindset unless I’m doing a one off intro for new players.

When I build my own full games I take the Dark Souls approach where even minor trash can wreck you if not careful. Power & wealth isn’t a hand out and victory is earned. In my games Players don’t won, they survive.

I blame this on how I was brought up in D20 games. Our games were never hand me outs and PC deaths happened a lot, not always a TPK but deaths did happen.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I don't think that person is still participating in this thread after 9 years.


The GM guide tells you exactly how to deal with this as a GM. Let the player use his preferred ability but after expenditure then throw something in there to force the player to think on his toes as well as give the other characters a chance to shine.

So he wants to shape change to powerful monsters to make combat quick? Let him but make him change shape multiple times in a combat to burn more uses. Sure the squid took care of the humans but what of theirs unknown air support. Or now he is a eagle? Good he mows through trash and now an aquatic threat is on the ship threatening your party... change number 3. Whats that another pirates ship thats an ally pulls up. This one has a caster on it (be it a shaman, a sorcerer or a psychic) if the threat is not serious enough to need the full party. Turn up the heat.

Silver Crusade

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Rysky wrote:
I don't think that person is still participating in this thread after 9 years.


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Forget it, they're rolling.


Bruno Kristensen wrote:

Ok, this may sound like whining or ranting, and perhaps it is...but...

Was playing a one-shot tonight, level 8, party including a fighter/rogue (swashbuckler type), bard/rogue (also kinda swashbuckler type), cleric/rogue and a druid.

These are mostly weak combos. The swashbuckler can work, if they build on Improved Feint (or equivalents). A bard/rogue is pretty weak, and would be better off just going pure bard. An 8th-level bard can give everyone +2 bonuses to stuff. A level 7 bard cannot. A cleric/rogue combo makes for good flavor, but the two classes don't work well together at all. Your party had no full arcane caster either.

Quote:
We were in a fight with a pirate captain and a couple of her mates, when the druid wildshaped into a giant squid (in the water) and soloed the encounter (around EL 8-9)...in one round.

The druid had the advantage there, in the water. It's enormously difficult to build another type of PC who can fight effectively in twe water.

Quote:
Next fight, we were fighting some guards and their captain...also EL 8-9...druid wildshaped into a dire tiger and soloed encounter...in two rounds.

If the guards were a threat, that shouldn't have happened, but...

Only guards? Not a rival adventuring party? No spellcasters? The otehr PCs just snoozed and allowed the druid to solo the fight? There's something going on there that has nothing to do with being a druid.

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