Low fantasy historical campaign tips

[Adso]

Hi everyone, I am GMing an historical Pathfinder campaign set in late medieval Germany and I was wondering (given that this is my first game to GM) if anyone had any tips or links for GMing in a low fantasy setting, especially in regards to increasing role-play opportunities and rewarding players with XP (or anything else) for role play and original thinking. Although most players seem to be having a good time, some of them are frustrated with the lack of loot and magical items and such (they can't seem to grasp that gold is a lot more valuable in this setting than it would be in a regular fantasy campaign, so silvers and coppers are not at all worthless). Has anyone else here ever run a low fantasy campaign? What modifications did you have to make to keep everyone happy with the reward system?

Also, are there any historical/medieval RP handbooks aside from the mythic vistas one, which seems much overpriced for what it is...?

[Helic]

jnpl11 wrote:

Hi everyone, I am GMing an historical Pathfinder campaign set in late medieval Germany and I was wondering (given that this is my first game to GM) if anyone had any tips

Also, are there any historical/medieval RP handbooks aside from the mythic vistas one, which seems much overpriced for what it is...?

Check out Ars Magica. It's set in and around 1220AD, has a book for Germany (Guardians of the Forest) which has an excellent map (also available on the Atlas Games website, IIRC) of Germany itself at the time. A large portion of the book deals with the Ars Magica parts, but much of it could be adapted - especially the politics and faerie stuff. However, Ars Magica books generally aren't super cheap - see if you can find it at a decently stocked store so you can leaf through it.

You'll probably want to go for a silver standard. 240 pennies to a pound, and gold was usually priced at 16-20x the value of silver. There shouldn't be a lot of gold coin around at all. The Byzantine Empire, which ends around 1240(?), was really the only user of gold coin. Period price lists shouldn't be too difficult to find online. For ease of use, you might want to just go for 1 silver penny = 1 gold piece, and things under a penny were usually bartered for. Not realistic at all but an easy conversion.

[Seldriss]

You could check Grimm.
Whether it's the Grimm fairy tales or the RPG of same name, you should find some inspiration in both.
Of course, use and abuse of books, historical facts, folklore and illustrations of original costumes, tools, architecture and maps of the period, to help your general immersion.
You don't really need rules, as you want a low fantasy feel, so you will actually use a light system.

[Rezdave]

I run a "grunge fantasy" campaign for my home-brew. It isn't historical, but I describe it as mid-magic and low-economy. We are definitely on the Silver-Standard. Low level PCs have occasionally gone hunting for food (even poaching) and camped in the woods outside town when they decided to save their precious coins rather than "waste" them at an in or tavern.

Needless to say, Rangers are invaluable for these types of settings.

Our game is character-focused and Player-driven, so the people involved definitely like that kind of thing anyway. No one is in it for the loot.

Magic items are more often made than purchased, and as a result become very personal, and personalized. Try to focus on this sort of thing.

I've had to make adjustments to D&D economics and use something more reality-based. It will be tempting for the PCs to earn income from easy Craft and Profession checks, so you'll need to adjust that or they will throw the party wealth out-of-balance.

Try to offer them non-cash rewards such as titles, deeds and favors. Start them out low-class and poor, but as they rescue the daughters of merchants and protect the family honor of nobles they gain access (though not admittance) to increasingly higher social strata. Eventually they can gain knighthoods, lands and so forth. Of course, being brave heroes, the lands they are granted will be ones that the local baron needs cleared of bandits and monsters and thus aren't producing any income, anyway ... at least not yet. An underhanded trick is to make them Sheriff or Warder/Steward of the lands, so that once they pacify them, build up the population and infrastructure and make them productive the noble can take them back.

Of course, the PCs will develop friends, allies and a reputation. After a while they will be able to trade on this and monthly upkeep will be a thing of the past. Perhaps if they save some merchant from ruin they become partners in his business. They make no real profit, but their share covers the expenses of a small cottage, clothes, food and so forth. If they stay in the same region and develop a positive reputation, after a while they won't need to pay for a meal again, since everyone will owe them something. Alternately, if they become famous enough across a large enough area, they can trade on their reputations. It's said Elvis Presley used to always pay for everything, no matter how minor, with a check due to the fact that his signature on the check was more valuable than the items he'd purchased, and so the check would never be cashed.

As far as XP goes, I cut all Combat XP in half and then make up the difference with RP-XP. I also give out Attendance-XP in the amount of 1/20th of what is needed to level based upon APL. That means 1st level PCs get 50 XP just because the Player showed up, but everything else needs to be earned.

Note that if the party is facing a big monster, they may spend a while planning the tactics to defeat it. Tactical Planning could easily be as much if not more XP than the actual combat. I've had major fights last less than a single round because the party planned them out so perfectly. Combat and RP XP goes all around. OTOH, I've had the party's plan fall apart the moment they engaged the enemy. Remember that they gain RP-XP for making the Plan, not necessarily for the Plan going off correctly. Also, if you don't give flat XP awards, then remember that XP should be allotted not only for who comes up with the final idea, but for who participates by contributing. That contribution might be in the form of dozens of ideas that all get rejected, or it might be someone who keeps notes of the plan as it evolves, or it might be the person who realizes that two people are arguing different sides of what is essentially the same plan, or it might be the person who repeats what everyone says but keeps the discussion focused and on-topic. All of those people are "contributing" and deserve RP-XP, even if only a few of them are actually suggesting the final version of the plan.

One other thing to consider, particularly in "Low Economy" settings is that the PCs probably can't earn enough money to survive by adventuring. They aren't adventurers because there is easy money in dungeon-delving, they became adventurers because they couldn't stand the thought of another day spent on the farm. That said, most "adventurers" are part-timers who have "day-jobs". The PCs will probably have to have some sort of non-adventuring career they pursue during extended periods of in-game downtime in order to provide themselves with a livable income. I award "EXDT XP" into a separate pool for this sort of activity, and the PCs then use this XP to buy levels of Expert to represent their EXDT non-adventuring careers. The current game has a Ship Captain, a Parish Priest, a Jeweler/Item Crafter/Accountant, a Leather-crafter, a Drill Sergeant and a Merchant-Trader. Past campaigns have seen diplomats, sheriffs, prospectors and other professions.

I don't know the expensive "mystic vistas" book you referenced, but people often recommend A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe for what you're doing.

Also, the Ars Magica material is great.

Good luck.

HTH,

Rez

[Helic]

Stupid me, I forgot about The Black Company RPG. d20 from Green Ronin (I think, someone's borrowing my copy). It has a nice, robust and expanded masterwork item rules section that's GREAT for low magic campaigns. I mean, if you can get a sword that's non-magical but +2 to hit and +2 to damage, you need magic items less.

[Adso]

Thanks, guys--we have game tonight, actually, so I will try some of these ideas and see how it goes.

[Rezdave]

Helic wrote:

The Black Company RPG. d20 from Green Ronin

Some Linkage

R.

[Lakesidefantasy]

Ars magica is really good, but I also found a little gem at the used bookstore titled "Fantasy Wargaming" by Bruce Galloway. Published in 1982 this small hardback has several chapters detailing magic systems and monstrous fauna using medieval mythology and folklore as the resource.

This book is dripping with the kind of flavor you're looking for.

One of my favorites is a chapter about faerie folk wherein the author writes at length about how elves have grown larger and larger in folktales throughout the centuries until Tolkien made them almost as big as humans. This interesting given that in Pathfinder elves are now taller than humans.

[Rezdave]

Lakesidefantasy wrote:

Tolkien made them almost as big as humans

I'm pretty sure Tolkien's elves were taller than humans. This is part of what gave the kings of Númenor their "kingly stature". They were, however, of a more slender build.

IIRC,

R.

[Adso]

Cool--is there a certain of the Ars Magica books I should be looking for?

[Helic]

Adso wrote:

Cool--is there a certain of the Ars Magica books I should be looking for?

Guardians of the Forest covers Germany - along with a listing of many places of mythical significance and historical mythology pertinent to the region. The Lion and the Lily covers France - these two are 5th edition books (current edition).

If you can find it, pick up the 4th edition Ars Magica book Heirs to Merlin. It has a large section on the daily life of nobles, commoners and clergy, and while it's a book about England, that information is pretty much common to most of Europe. In fact, I'd recommend this book the highest if you only wanted to spend money on one book. It's that good.

[Sean K Reynolds]

My historical Greek campaign (which I published as The New Argonauts) might have stuff to help you. And it's a free download!

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/free/v5748btpy84e8

[Can'tFindthePath]

Adso wrote:

Hi everyone, I am GMing an historical Pathfinder campaign set in late medieval Germany and I was wondering (given that this is my first game to GM) if anyone had any tips or links for GMing in a low fantasy setting, especially in regards to increasing role-play opportunities and rewarding players with XP (or anything else) for role play and original thinking. Although most players seem to be having a good time, some of them are frustrated with the lack of loot and magical items and such (they can't seem to grasp that gold is a lot more valuable in this setting than it would be in a regular fantasy campaign, so silvers and coppers are not at all worthless). Has anyone else here ever run a low fantasy campaign? What modifications did you have to make to keep everyone happy with the reward system?

Also, are there any historical/medieval RP handbooks aside from the mythic vistas one, which seems much overpriced for what it is...?

Lots of good advice from the other posters here. I don't have any direct experience with this sort of campaign, but I have thought about it. For economic resources I recommend GURPS basic price list for medieval weapons and armor, where 1 "dollar" is treated as a farthing (a quarter of a silver penny), with 240 pennies to the "pound". But a very comprehensive economic system can be found in HarnWorld and HarnMaster (any edition). And for detailed land management and development, HarnManor. These are pricey but good.

[Laurefindel]

Adso wrote:

Cool--is there a certain of the Ars Magica books I should be looking for?

The base rulebook for rules (obviously), otherwise if you can get 3rd edition Mythic Europe (when Ars Magica belonged to White Wolf), this is what you're looking for. It is pretty system neutral, so it would be just as valuable with Pathfinder rules.

As I'm looking at it, there are 17 pages on Northern Europe, most of which describe the Holy German Empire.

This IS my bible for medieval paradigm RPGs. One of the best book ever written for RPG IMO. Perhaps it has been re-published or re-written since then.

Mythic Europe
European Campaign Sourcebook for Ars Magica 3rd edition
WW0600, 1992

'findel

[Goblins Eighty-Five]

Adso wrote:

Also, are there any historical/medieval RP handbooks aside from the mythic vistas one, which seems much overpriced for what it is...?

I would say that everything you want is actually in that book. It is actually quite cheap on amazon; sellers are selling them used and new for less than $10.

My first question is going to be: Is there any magic allowed?

My second one is: How concerned are you about historical accuracy? I must say, unless every member of your group has a doctorate in early twelfth century history, there should be no problem with 'stretching' the truth a bit. Also, don't be afraid to allow the players to change history. Let the players impact the world; don't make them feel as if they have to follow a historical timeline that they may or not even know.

On another note, I personally would favor splitting Knowledge (religion) into Knowledge (Christianity), Knowledge (Islam) and Knowledge ( Judaism).

[Teneck]

Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:

Adso wrote:

SNIP

On another note, I personally would favor splitting Knowledge (religion) into Knowledge (Christianity), Knowledge (Islam) and Knowledge ( Judaism).

Ahhh...let us not forget Knowledge (Paganism)

[Rezdave]

Teneck wrote:

let us not forget Knowledge (Paganism)

I thought about suggesting this, but the setting for the campaign (late-medieval per OP) is probably past the time when it is historically relevant.

During the time of Charlemagne (800 A.D.) it would probably be a good idea, but by the Crusades (1100 A.D.) Europe was pretty unified under Christianity, so much so that it was launching military expeditions into foreign lands.

R.

[Adso]

Goblins 85: Yes, I have allowed magic, but in some ways I am beginning to regret it because with the large number of players, there is always someone who can either heal everyone up even after the fiercest battles or use "charm person" to subvert a major plot point. It's come to the point that I've actually had to fudge some will saves for NPCs so that the whole story is not ruined.

The campaign is set in an alternate history with magic and magical races--though much more limited than what would be found in a normal Pathfinder or D&D campaign.

[Rezdave]

Adso wrote:

Yes, I have allowed magic, but in some ways I am beginning to regret it

Witches !!!! They're Witches and worship Satan !!!!

Burn them All !!!!

Magic in a historical setting can be dangerous, particularly in the medieval Christian milieu.

R.

[Adso]

Rezdave wrote:

Adso wrote:

Yes, I have allowed magic, but in some ways I am beginning to regret it

Witches !!!! They're Witches and worship Satan !!!!

Burn them All !!!!

Magic in a historical setting can be dangerous, particularly in the medieval Christian milieu.

R.

Yes, and that is part of why I am beginning to regret it--they don't even try to hide their abilities as I've urged them to, so I am going to have to make them pay the consequences.

Has anyone used Monte Cook's Iron Heroes expansion through White Wolf? How well would it work with PF? Is it really even possible to do Low fantasy with PF or am I better off looking at something like Warhammer FRP?

[Knight who says Neek!]

Well, if you are already started, I don't think changing systems is an option, although Iron Heroes would be a very good option if you could.

If you had wanted a truly grim and gritty game you could do what I did once; make everyone use NPC classes.I had the summon familiar feature of the Adept replaced with a single domain. I also had an Arcane Adept who could only cast from two schools and replaced summon familiar with scribe scroll. Makes for a tough game.

But....Since you already started here's some suggestions:

Reward with action points (the 3.5/D20M not 4e ones. You give 1 or 2 when they make an accomplishment. They can use them to add +1d6 to a single die roll, or to use a "per day" spell or ability once more or to add a metamagic feat to a spell without sacrificing a higher slot (1AP per slot higher)

If healing is a problem, say some unknown force is interfering with channeling and make them make a Knowledge Religion roll with a high DC to be able to use it. The DC lowers on holy ground so basically they have to get to a church to heal. Later you can introduce an ancient evil magic artifact that has been doing this and maybe even make a quest around finding and destroying it.

If you make magic items rarer, make sure you increas their ability scores more often; this was a problem I had with Iron Heroes, the fact the ability scores lagged. Since they get a feat every odd character level, give +1 to an ability score every even character level.

Oh, the whole "witch--burn them!" was actually more in the late medieval/rennaisance era than Dark age/early medieval. In the 8th century epic Beowulf, he is portrayed as a Christian warrior but uses a magic shield and has strong overtones of pagan warriors. During the dark ages especilly, you had a mix of pagan culture and christian religion, partly because early christians were not interested in changing culture as much as changing souls. But even later medieval were more forgiving than one might be led to believe.
In fact lets not forget Arthur and Merlin who were the products of late 15th century Christian France and England where Arthur was held as an example for Christin kings. No one ever suggests in the arthurian sagas to burn Merlin at the stake.
And the crime a witch was burned for was not using magic but making a pact with the devil to be able to practice said magic. Things like sympathetic magic were quite commonly thought useful, not evil.
After all the Bible makes quite a big deal about the visit of the Magi who were persian astrologers and magicians.

[Antonio Sciancalepore]

Adso wrote:

Yes, I have allowed magic, but in some ways I am beginning to regret it

if you seek "low magic" you can take a look to warhammer fantasy roleplay wfrp.

some links

Adso wrote:

Although most players seem to be having a good time, some of them are frustrated with the lack of loot and magical items and such

this could be a seriuos problem.

Some roleplayers really love having magic stuff and I ended my wfrp campaign because in my group there were some players complaining the best equipment they had was a masterwork sword (+1 to hit); so we stop with wfrp and we started with pathfinder.
my advice is to make it clear since the beginning that the campaign is low magic and there will be a few and litte powerful magic object and be sure that each player agrees with this.

I hope the english is clear ( it's a long speech for me ;) )

[Adso]

Does anyone have any rules links for making a campaign more low fantasy? i.e., so that battle actually presents some kind of risk or danger and PCs will think twice before rushing headlong into battle they could not realistically win?