A question: In Pathfinder, the grappled condition does not deny the dexterity bonus to a person grappled any more, instead it applies a -4 to their dexterity.
However, it is unclear if this makes the grappled person vulnerable to sneak attacks, particularly from their grappler. It can be argued that while they are not denied their dexterity bonus, they still cannot defend themselves adequately, much as a person who is flanked does not lose his Dex bonus but is still vulnerable to sneak attack.
So is someone with the grappled condition vulnerable to sneak attack?
A question: In Pathfinder, the grappled condition does not deny the dexterity bonus to a person grappled any more, instead it applies a -4 to their dexterity.
However, it is unclear if this makes the grappled person vulnerable to sneak attacks, particularly from their grappler. It can be argued that while they are not denied their dexterity bonus, they still cannot defend themselves adequately, much as a person who is flanked does not lose his Dex bonus but is still vulnerable to sneak attack.
So is someone with the grappled condition vulnerable to sneak attack?
You'd need to pin first.
Yes, I know that's the best RAW interpretation, I just had this idea of a rogue who's dirty fighting method was to grab his target and yank them onto his blade, almost. Perhaps more applicable with surprise?
Yes, I know that's the best RAW interpretation, I just had this idea of a rogue who's dirty fighting method was to grab his target and yank them onto his blade, almost. Perhaps more applicable with surprise?
That'd be doable, but it might require a significant feat investment.
If the rogue pinned the target, then the target is flatfooted (the book says flatfooted, the FAQ suggests 'denied dex to AC' which seems more appropriate). So any attacks the rogue makes against a target he pins should get sneak attack.
The question is can a 'maintaining the grapple' check that is used to cause damage count as a sneak attack? I have no answer to that.
If not, then the Greater Grapple feat could be used to maintain the grapple as a move action, then make a regular attack as a standard action, which would benefit from sneak attack.
Its a bit convulated, and would take more than one round to pull off, but its doable.
A rather wicked idea actually. You might take Defensive Combat Training at 5th or so - it's your CMD that keeps people from escaping grapples.
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Grab and Stab. The Rogue's version of Scry and Die.
Could use the rogue talent that gives a bonus combat feat to get greater grapple at 8th level.
Could use that for a lot of cool things now that I think about it (improved two weapon, vital strike, manyshot)
You'd need to pin first.
So is someone with the grappled condition vulnerable to sneak attack?
Being pinned still doesn't deny your Dex bonus, no? It just give you a further -4 to AC.
Pinning, however, does deny your Dex bonus, so you could sneak attack someone if you can just persuade them to pin someone. :)
On the other hand, Table 8-6: Armor Class modifiers (p. 195) says that a grappling creature loses its Dex bonus. But I assume that's just an erroneous copypasta from the old SRD, since it's the only place that gives completely different modifiers, rather than referencing the grappled condition.
Edit: My mistake, I missed the fact that pinned creatures are flat-footed. So indeed, you can sneak attack pinned creatures (and also pinning creatures).
A question: In Pathfinder, the grappled condition does not deny the dexterity bonus to a person grappled any more, instead it applies a -4 to their dexterity.
However, it is unclear if this makes the grappled person vulnerable to sneak attacks, particularly from their grappler. It can be argued that while they are not denied their dexterity bonus, they still cannot defend themselves adequately, much as a person who is flanked does not lose his Dex bonus but is still vulnerable to sneak attack.
So is someone with the grappled condition vulnerable to sneak attack?
You still can benefit from flanking, but only pinned creatures become flatfooted.
I'm not 100% sure about this: If you can Feint using a move action you can use the move action to deny the Dex modifier, and apply the sneak attack damage using the the harm option of the action to maintain the grapple.Imo it is only usefull to deal with spellcasters, invisible foes and similar creatures.
Even the 3.5 SRD, you couldn't SA a grappled opponent if you were the grappler. Grapplers keep their Dex. bonus on each other. The tactic was for a Fighter to start a grapple, then the Rogue can attack the opponent with ease and without having to flank the enemy.
This can still be done in Pathfinder, except that the Rogue would actually have to flank the target. This is because no longer do grappled opponents share the same space (even though I think they should). They still stay in their own space, so a Rogue would have to maneuver to flank the grappled foe. Though, since it can't move, it wouldn't be hard to perform.