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Personally I would love to see a race creation book. One that breaks down the value of varies abilities with a cost attached to them. Then with help on how to deconstruction monster races to build player races out of them. Throw in some sample races of some of the more common basic monster races and finally have a section how to break more powerful monsters down into race levels.
hopefully that's clear.

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Doesn't LPJ already have a Pathfinder Race Creation book?
Yes they do and I own it. It is very complicated and hard to follow to be honest. Lacks any examples of how to apply the rules etc. I think for game designers it is a ok book, but for your basic consumer it doesn't fit the bill. Nor does it get into race levels. I thought Rite Publishing did a pretty interesting job with their giants race book, to make them into a playable race.

Urizen |

Urizen wrote:Doesn't LPJ already have a Pathfinder Race Creation book?Yes they do and I own it. It is very complicated and hard to follow to be honest. Lacks any examples of how to apply the rules etc. I think for game designers it is a ok book, but for your basic consumer it doesn't fit the bill. Nor does it get into race levels. I thought Rite Publishing did a pretty interesting job with their giants race book, to make them into a playable race.
Actually, I'm going to have to agree with you on that remark.
P.S. SGG is hosting a forum on blogtalkradio tomorrow at 5:30 PST. Such questions should even be brought up there. =)

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Dark_Mistress wrote:Urizen wrote:Doesn't LPJ already have a Pathfinder Race Creation book?Yes they do and I own it. It is very complicated and hard to follow to be honest. Lacks any examples of how to apply the rules etc. I think for game designers it is a ok book, but for your basic consumer it doesn't fit the bill. Nor does it get into race levels. I thought Rite Publishing did a pretty interesting job with their giants race book, to make them into a playable race.Actually, I'm going to have to agree with you on that remark.
P.S. SGG is hosting a forum on blogtalkradio tomorrow at 5:30 PST. Such questions should even be brought up there. =)
During the NFL 1st round draft? Well ok maybe there is not a ton of crossover between gamers and football fans :) beyond me and a few guys I know.

Black Dalek |
During the NFL 1st round draft? Well ok maybe there is not a ton of crossover between gamers and football fans :) beyond me and a few guys I know.
I was once involved in an (unsuccessful) attempt to start a gaming group over these boards. In the middle of that, there was a message, right here, that included the following:
Sunday afternoons from 1pm and on are a no go until football season is over obviously.
Oh yeah. Obviously. When does football season end? January? February? I don't even know.

Urizen |

Urizen yeah i might try but our TV and computer are in different rooms.
Black yeah there is a few of us around. Preseason starts in August and the Super Bowl is in Feb.
OOF! Luckily I have a lap top. =) Although my woman likes to monopolize the TV on Thursdays due to Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice. I may be the one going to a different room this evening.
That wasn't a genius move on their part. :D

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Dark_Mistress wrote:Urizen yeah i might try but our TV and computer are in different rooms.
Black yeah there is a few of us around. Preseason starts in August and the Super Bowl is in Feb.
OOF! Luckily I have a lap top. =) Although my woman likes to monopolize the TV on Thursdays due to Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice. I may be the one going to a different room this evening.
That wasn't a genius move on their part. :D
Poor you :) maybe you need to get her into football.
Well to be fair I doubt most non football fans have any idea when the draft is, i know football fans that don't know.

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Dark_Mistress wrote:Ha! I don't see that happening; not in this lifetime. =DPoor you :) maybe you need to get her into football.
Well to be fair I doubt most non football fans have any idea when the draft is, i know football fans that don't know.
Never know, for a long time I found it as boring as other sports. Then I started to learn more about it and like it.

Stan! Contributor |

A playable 'half-undead' could be neat.
Well, it's not exactly the same thing ... but if you look at The Genius Guide to the Harrowed you'll find something SIMILAR to that.

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Set wrote:A playable 'half-undead' could be neat.Well, it's not exactly the same thing ... but if you look at The Genius Guide to the Harrowed you'll find something SIMILAR to that.
I have that brilliant product (and I'm not just blowing smoke - check out my posts above) but you're correct, it's not the same.
Will someone please make an undead PC that makes sense?!? I don't want to call it out, but I love Tyralandi and this flavor (basically cool James stuff mixed with some feats from Libris Mortis) is rockin'!
But...a skeleton dude trying to survive the real world of the not-evil would be such a roleplaying hoot...

Urizen |

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Dark_Mistress wrote:[CLICK HERE]What no link to where we can go listen to it at?
Draft is over of course but sure the talk is too now.
Thank you muchly. :)

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I like outsiders the most. In order of how much I like them as player characters:
Azata Ghaele
Succubus
Deva
Hound Archon
Kyton
See for that I think i would like to see tieflings and... those other guys... expanded with a different version for each outsider. Yeah I know that is a lot of version. Then add in race levels to evolve into mommy or daddy I think would work best.

Steven Purcell |

For me the list would be (in order)
Lizardfolk
Gnolls
Bugbears
Minotaurs
Centaurs
Hound Archons
Lantern Archons
Avoral Agathion (Bestiary 2)
Bralani Azatas
Lillend Azatas
Bearded Devils
Erinyes
Barbed Devils
Kytons
Babau Demons
Succubi/Incubi
Vrock Demons
Dragons would be very cool but the question would occur as to HOW to present them - one huge book for all of them or multiple smaller volumes dividing them up somehow or ten volumes with one per volume?
The THAT (Tengu, Hobgoblin, Aasimar and Tiefling) are already solidly comparable to the core seven in my view so they wouldn't really need assistance as much. YMMV

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I'm running a pathfinder game set in my own made up campaign, along the way the players ran into an NPC gnoll that I had statted up as a PC. This particular gnoll didn't wish to give birth to a monstrous deformity for Lamashtu, and was then cursed (once and a while has feelings of giving birth but without actually doing so, she's also incapable of having a child). She's ostracized by her pack and wanders into human territory, luckily she's found by a knight of sarenrae and since this gnoll isn't attacking her and looks near death and wishing to die, she brings her to a nearby temple of irori (based in some mountains, makes sense according to the map I drew up).
In any case, wishing to spite Lamashtu, she does her best to change her alignment and becomes a monk under Irori's tutelages.
After some time, her knight friend of Sarenrae has to head back and she tags along. They get attacked by an opposing realm mostly made up of xenophobic humans, and she alone comes to the city where the players are in. This city isn't as xenophobic, but strange monsters are still unwelcome.
The players figure out her history and go through some diplomacy/evidence gathering efforts to allow the gnoll to prove herself and she does. She then becomes an NPC they can call on to come with them. They often do too, as everyone loves having her around. It was also very fun to roleplay a gnoll, especially before they taught her common, there was a lot of hand-wavey motions and writing pictures in the dirt.
I believe starting out I gave her +2 str, +2 con, -2 cha.
I gave her racial bonuses of perception +2, darkvision 60ft, scent and maybe a natural armor +1AC, or I might have chosen that as a feat under the monster feats. It's really flexible however, I tried to find other gnolls as PC classes and it's been done and it varies a bit from what I've seen.
Adding monsters to a party is kind of interesting because there's some explaining to do sometimes. Some spells have a lower level equivalent that affects monsters and not humans, etc. Plus you get to roleplay a lot differently.

Stan! Contributor |

any news on this front?
No news. The "summer crunch" has hit a little early for Super Genius Games ... but that's just because we have so much planned. Right now we're making sure everything is set for Paizo Con (including the premiere of The Adventurer's Handbook (we just were looking over the printer's proofs this past week ... the very last stage before we're able to actually hold copies of the book in our hands). We're also trying to stay on top of Gen Con prep, including a valiant attempt to get two MORE products into print by then (one of them another PFRPG book).
On top of that we're still planning to maintain our product-a-week schedule AND meet our own individual freelance commitments (y'know, to pay the bills and whatnot).
As a result, some products have been put onto "simmer" rather than being whipped into a full boil. This is one of them. But I AM still making notes in that department and following the conversations here.

Hexcaliber |

Just about none of the monsters in the beastiary are designed for players to play. They are designed for a group of players to overcome. Four players to be precise. This means that if you wanted to play, say a rakshasa, the party would have to be roughly 14th level. Would you really want to do that?
Now, if there was a lesser rakshasa that was designed to be played from level 1 and up and if you could take feats or prestige class levels that made you more rakshasa like then that would be worth a $3 PDF. Just saying.

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Just about none of the monsters in the beastiary are designed for players to play. They are designed for a group of players to overcome. Four players to be precise. This means that if you wanted to play, say a rakshasa, the party would have to be roughly 14th level. Would you really want to do that?
Now, if there was a lesser rakshasa that was designed to be played from level 1 and up and if you could take feats or prestige class levels that made you more rakshasa like then that would be worth a $3 PDF. Just saying.
Well, except for the ones that have a CR of less than 1. These require a handful to be a challenge for a group of 4 players.
I would like to see monstrous PC abilities handled in the same fashion that one of the 3.5 splatbooks handled sorcerer bloodlines. Basically, if you wanted the benefits of the bloodline, you had to dedicate one of the levels you would normally gain in a class to instead gain your bloodline powers. This would work well for monstrous PCs IMHO. Start play with your basic stat adjustments and a few racial benefits then gain some monster abilities at certain intervals (having to dedicate more levels depending on the strength of the monster's race).

Hexcaliber |

I always figured that people were mostly adverse to the monster levels that Savage Species offered. Which would incline me to believe that people were also adverse to replacement levels.
I for one am a huge fan of Savage Species, but even I admit they screwed the pooch with that book. I'm guessing replacement levels could work, but me thinks a 5 level PrC that rounded out racial abilities might be more suitable to Path.
Just an opinion.

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I always figured that people were mostly adverse to the monster levels that Savage Species offered. Which would incline me to believe that people were also adverse to replacement levels.
I for one am a huge fan of Savage Species, but even I admit they screwed the pooch with that book. I'm guessing replacement levels could work, but me thinks a 5 level PrC that rounded out racial abilities might be more suitable to Path.
Just an opinion.
PrC might work, but the feel of it just doesn't strike me as right. The way I envision playing a monstrous PC would be starting out as a fledgling monster and, as you gain experience and age, you gain your monster powers. Under a PrC design, you would take a few levels in a player class, then over the course of 5 levels gain all of your monstrous abilities...that just doesn't doesn't sound right to me. A gradual gain in power makes more sense to me and just feels right, IMO.

Twin Agate Dragons |

PrC might work, but the feel of it just doesn't strike me as right. The way I envision playing a monstrous PC would be starting out as a fledgling monster and, as you gain experience and age, you gain your monster powers. Under a PrC design, you would take a few levels in a player class, then over the course of 5 levels gain all of your monstrous abilities...that just doesn't doesn't sound right to me. A gradual gain in power makes more sense to me and just feels right, IMO.
In my Pathfinder homebrew, there are a handful of races that exist solely as slowly acquired powers; this is done by using Paragon Paths (for want of a better name). Basically every three caharcter levels, the PC gains one of six tiers of abilities. Dragons are another issue entirely though. You want to be a dragon? First you have to have 30 character levels and then acquire 20 more levels to reach the zenith of draconic might.

Hexcaliber |

PrC might work, but the feel of it just doesn't strike me as right. The way I envision playing a monstrous PC would be starting out as a fledgling monster and, as you gain experience and age, you gain your monster powers. Under a PrC design, you would take a few levels in a player class, then over the course of 5 levels gain all of your monstrous abilities...that just doesn't doesn't sound right to me. A gradual gain in power makes more sense to me and just feels right, IMO.
I absolutely agree with you. What I'm suggestion though is something that works within the current system. I'll just have to give you an example of what I'm talking about.
Sadly, the post monster eats long winded posts. I'll add something to my campaign's wiki and then post a link. It may take a little while so bear with me.

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PrC might work, but the feel of it just doesn't strike me as right. The way I envision playing a monstrous PC would be starting out as a fledgling monster and, as you gain experience and age, you gain your monster powers.
This was the basic approach that Savage Species used, and IMHO the part they got right.
The parts I feel they got wrong were (a) LA -- forcing monster PCs to trade HD for their monster powers, and (b) trying to make the monster PC builds adhere closely to the Monster Manual statblocks.
If I were designing "Pathfinder RPG Monster PC" rules I would create racial "classes" but the final monster PC builds would be balanced against the PC classes, and would probably have some particular differences from the generic monster types you just encounter and defeat. And they would have the proper number of HD at each level. ;-)

Hexcaliber |

http://avenesta.wikia.com/wiki/Rakshasa,_Lesser
This is what I was talking about. Took my awhile to get it done. Just wish I had more free time for stuff like this.
To make a long story short I am of the opinion that this is the way to go. There can be no hard fast formula, only guidelines. The problem with Savage Species was the horrendous guidelines that either offered you something that was too good (and thus, unplayable) or made something too limited and again, unplayable.
I hope with what I created you can see where my opinion stands in regards to both guidelines, formula and playability. Thank you.