If you need NPCs, go here (though the site's server is having some issues - darn it >.< ).
Creative Director
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Epic level gaming is NOT a small fraction of gaming. I'm quite aware of that. I would say it's probably neck and neck in popularity with psionics, in fact, and maybe even a bit MORE popular.
It's something that I really REALLY want us to tackle some day at Paizo, but that day won't be in 2010. It is unlikely to be in 2011 either.
Epic level gaming is NOT a small fraction of gaming. I'm quite aware of that. I would say it's probably neck and neck in popularity with psionics, in fact, and maybe even a bit MORE popular.
It's something that I really REALLY want us to tackle some day at Paizo, but that day won't be in 2010. It is unlikely to be in 2011 either.
We know you know. We just want everyone else to know, and especially want everyone else to know that we know you know. And if you know that we know you know, all the better :)
I guess for me the whole thing involves several issues.
1. I and those I play with squeezed blood from a stone to play once a week.
2. Just recently we finished playing up to 16th level (this was before we bought Pathfinder). We stopped at that level for several reasons.
a. Huge time consummed in making monsters and npc stats for the characters to fight. Also things such as traps and what not.
b.very longggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg drawn out battles because fighter types got so many attacks esp Rangers with two weapon fighting.
This also included not only having to roll them all but calculating. The ranger (bless his heart) finally created a system where he color coded the dice damage and to hit. At that point we estimated it only took 8min for him to roll!
c. the acummulation and nessicity of high level magic items. I will not even start to go in on this one. Just to say it becomes gross and bulky.
This also included not only having to roll them all but calculating. The ranger (bless his heart) finally created a system where he color coded the dice damage and to hit. At that point we estimated it only took 8min for him to roll!
8 minutes? Seriously? I know a guy who played a high-level monk who loved to flurry everything to death, and it didn't take him nearly that long. And he only has one arm!
At 20th level, he's right in the middle. If you get to say he's one of the weaker ones, I get to say he's one of the more powerful ones, since either direction there's just as many. At this point, though, it's just a self-perpetuating internet argument.
Let's get it on, then! :)
This also included not only having to roll them all but calculating. The ranger (bless his heart) finally created a system where he color coded the dice damage and to hit. At that point we estimated it only took 8min for him to roll!8 minutes? Seriously? I know a guy who played a high-level monk who loved to flurry everything to death, and it didn't take him nearly that long. And he only has one arm!
I think it's more a people problem, not a game problem.
I've played high-level warriors, and seen other high-level warriors played, characters with 5 attacks or more, with stuff like power attack/deadly aim, active buffing effects, active hexing effects, and sometimes a conditional modifier as well, and they took a lot less than 8 minutes to complete their turns.
I also have seen people with 3 or less attacks who seem to take forever. But that is because you have to explain to them how the attack mechanic works, which of their feats and abilities apply and how they change the numbers; then, you have to wait until they have added up the numbers for their bonuses. Then they roll and add up the attack roll to the bonus. Then they look up their damage, and roll that, and add it up.
If you're lucky, they remember this stuff for the whole round, maybe even the whole fight (just hope they don't have special abilities that mean that some attacks have different effects from the rest, like manyshot!).
But even if you're really, really lucky, and they remember most of this stuff for the rest of the evening, you'll be back to square one when the next session is taking place.
With a few basic math skills, a half-decent system for calculating and recording bonuses, and maybe a simple trick or two, a warrior can be done as fast as (or even faster than) the spellcasters.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say I could care less about epic rules.
My group tried to do a post-RotRL game and well before we took down Karzoug we were nigh-unkillable death machines. We had to do a lot just to make combat work, and eventually it just broke our DM's back with all the work.
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As I mentioned in the other thread when James brought it up. I would be interested in a high level NPC book if it was done right. Meaning it needs to be about a lot more than just their stat blocks.
Personally I love Thassilon and would love to see a lot more information about it and the other runelords. I keep hoping to see a Chronicles book about each of the lost empires. (hopefully one book for each empire but I would take one book about all of them)
As for the talk about minorities well I might be in one. Since I have played since... well a very long time lets just say :), and so far to date have never played in a ran a game that hit level 20. Closest I cam as a player and GM both was 18th lvl.
Why people don't roll more then 1 dice at a time is beyond me.
Real men sculpt bowling balls into polyhedra. I'd like to see you roll more than one of those with a single hand, Mr. Urza!
Why people don't roll more then 1 dice at a time is beyond me.Real men sculpt bowling balls into polyhedra. I'd like to see you roll more than one of those with a single hand, Mr. Urza!
Real men don't use those new-fangled d20 things at all.
They use classic 20-sided d10s and a d6, since no self-respecting gamer would sully their d20 by coloring half the numbers one color and half another.
And that way you get to roll twice as many dice!
If you need NPCs, go here (though the site's server is having some issues - darn it >.< ).
While conceptually an awesome site, as far as I can tell this seems to be 3.5 and uses a butt-ton of sources I've no access to. :(
It's an awesome database I'm sure for those who know what all those supplementary races and classes even are.
At least the generators are useful, but that doesn't help with fast creation of core only PFRPG NPCs, AFAICT.
Thanks anyway.
Edit: did the filter actually just censor a rather innocuous word for rear end? Wow. That's hilarious.
If you need NPCs, go here (though the site's server is having some issues - darn it >.< ).While conceptually an awesome site, as far as I can tell this seems to be 3.5 and uses a b~~~-ton of sources I've no access to. :(
It's an awesome database I'm sure for those who know what all those supplementary races and classes even are.
At least the generators are useful, but that doesn't help with fast creation of core only PFRPG NPCs, AFAICT.
Thanks anyway.
Edit: did the filter actually just censor a rather innocuous word for rear end? Wow. That's hilarious.
Logging in and setting your preferences will restrict display to only the books you have access to. There is a PF version of the site in the works, but I have a not insignificant stack of code to clean up before I share it.
Lilith, what if you've forgotten your password to your site?
Can you have something that emails you your login/password?
Email me and I can retrieve it for you, or reset it if you like. My email's in my profile.
Since I have played since... well a very long time lets just say :), and so far to date have never played in a ran a game that hit level 20. Closest I cam as a player and GM both was 18th lvl.
What a coincidence! My record is 18 too! That was in the days of the D&D Companion Set. At level 18, I realized that the characters were too powerful for me to handle.
And in 3.0, I began to wonder if they were too powerful at TWELFTH level! (Although I was determined to finish that campaign, so it went as high as 15th level. And that's my record for 3.X.)
Logging in and setting your preferences will restrict display to only the books you have access to. There is a PF version of the site in the works, but I have a not insignificant stack of code to clean up before I share it.
That's great news, on both ends. Thanks.
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Since I have played since... well a very long time lets just say :), and so far to date have never played in a ran a game that hit level 20. Closest I cam as a player and GM both was 18th lvl.What a coincidence! My record is 18 too! That was in the days of the D&D Companion Set. At level 18, I realized that the characters were too powerful for me to handle.
And in 3.0, I began to wonder if they were too powerful at TWELFTH level! (Although I was determined to finish that campaign, so it went as high as 15th level. And that's my record for 3.X.)
Yeah pretty much the same, at that point each of the groups I have been in either one of two things happen. 1 the GM just runs out of idea and ways to challenge the group. 2 the players get bored and want to do something new. I would say back in the day 15-18 was the avg stopping point, since 3e I would say 12-15 now is avg.
Epic level gaming is NOT a small fraction of gaming. I'm quite aware of that. I would say it's probably neck and neck in popularity with psionics, in fact, and maybe even a bit MORE popular.
It's something that I really REALLY want us to tackle some day at Paizo, but that day won't be in 2010. It is unlikely to be in 2011 either.
It would be profitable if you tackled it sooner than later I would suggest.
This also included not only having to roll them all but calculating. The ranger (bless his heart) finally created a system where he color coded the dice damage and to hit. At that point we estimated it only took 8min for him to roll!8 minutes? Seriously? I know a guy who played a high-level monk who loved to flurry everything to death, and it didn't take him nearly that long. And he only has one arm!
Was it your character? LOL.
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Creative Director
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It would be profitable if you tackled it sooner than later I would suggest.Epic level gaming is NOT a small fraction of gaming. I'm quite aware of that. I would say it's probably neck and neck in popularity with psionics, in fact, and maybe even a bit MORE popular.
It's something that I really REALLY want us to tackle some day at Paizo, but that day won't be in 2010. It is unlikely to be in 2011 either.
Whether or not it would actually be profitable at all is a big part of why we haven't tried yet, to be honest. The fact that producing high/epic level content takes more time and more work yet, according to ALL of our market research and anecdotal feedback and overall customer feedback won't appeal to as many customers (more work for less reward) makes it a tricky topic to design for.
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Whether or not it would actually be profitable at all is a big part of why we haven't tried yet, to be honest. The fact that producing high/epic level content takes more time and more work yet, according to ALL of our market research and anecdotal feedback and overall customer feedback won't appeal to as many customers (more work for less reward) makes it a tricky topic to design for.It would be profitable if you tackled it sooner than later I would suggest.Epic level gaming is NOT a small fraction of gaming. I'm quite aware of that. I would say it's probably neck and neck in popularity with psionics, in fact, and maybe even a bit MORE popular.
It's something that I really REALLY want us to tackle some day at Paizo, but that day won't be in 2010. It is unlikely to be in 2011 either.
True or so it seems in my experience. But to play devils advocate for a moment(this as someone that is not really interested in epic rules in the first place, but I digress) a good set of epic rules with adventure support might change that though and make it more popular and profitable. Not saying I believe that only... as i said playing devils advocate.
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Creative Director
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True or so it seems in my experience. But to play devils advocate for a moment(this as someone that is not really interested in epic rules in the first place, but I digress) a good set of epic rules with adventure support might change that though and make it more popular and profitable. Not saying I believe that only... as i said playing devils advocate.
Perhaps... but nearly 4 decades of anecdotal evidence and a LOT of attempts to build a "good" high level rules set (epic level was hardly the first attempt) is hard to argue against.
Don't get me wrong. I'd LOVE to see more high level stuff. I actually prefer high level play, myself, and have run several campaigns up into epic level (although usually only just, since by that time it's not the epic level stuff that gets us down but the desire to start a new game with a new storyline or with new characters or a new GM that encourages us to switch), and had fun with all of them.
The same sense of "fun" wasn't always shared by the entire table, though.
An added challenge is that while everyone knows what they mean when they say they want epic rules, most people don't mean the same thing.
For example, the epic games I run at conventions are very different than my home epic games. The ones at conventions are typically just epic combats with some basic storyline behind them, while my home campaign is far more plot driven.
In both cases, though ultra high level, the characters are *not* demigods.
On the other hand, in other people's eyes, epic characters are up there duking it out with Odin and Thor, while for others epic play is more like Champions, or the characters are out there ruling kingdoms or worlds.
So, odds are go that no matter what Paizo does, some set of the people clamoring for epic rules will go "No! That's not what I meant at all!"
Which doesn't change the fact that I'm looking forward to the day they do figure it out :)
Whether or not it would actually be profitable at all is a big part of why we haven't tried yet, to be honest. The fact that producing high/epic level content takes more time and more work yet, according to ALL of our market research and anecdotal feedback and overall customer feedback won't appeal to as many customers (more work for less reward) makes it a tricky topic to design for.
Is it more appealing than say an Asian theme hardcover or a Savage Species type book. I would think Epic would match those in popularity no?
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Creative Director
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Whether or not it would actually be profitable at all is a big part of why we haven't tried yet, to be honest. The fact that producing high/epic level content takes more time and more work yet, according to ALL of our market research and anecdotal feedback and overall customer feedback won't appeal to as many customers (more work for less reward) makes it a tricky topic to design for.Is it more appealing than say an Asian theme hardcover or a Savage Species type book. I would think Epic would match those in popularity no?
As far as I can tell, an Epic book falls squarely between an Asian themed book and Savage Species, with Asian Adventuring being more popular and Savage Species being less popular.
As far as I can tell, an Epic book falls squarely between an Asian themed book and Savage Species, with Asian Adventuring being more popular and Savage Species being less popular.
I just don't get the fascination. Didn't when 1e Oriental Adventures came out (or was it 2e by then?), didn't for 3.5e, and still don't.
Go play Bushido or something :)
As far as I can tell, an Epic book falls squarely between an Asian themed book and Savage Species, with Asian Adventuring being more popular and Savage Species being less popular.I just don't get the fascination. Didn't when 1e Oriental Adventures came out (or was it 2e by then?), didn't for 3.5e, and still don't.
Go play Bushido or something :)
Well, for one thing, it makes the world more complete. :) In our world, for instance, contact with the East was one of the factors that triggered the European Renaissance.
(I might even suggest adding an Arcadia/New World themed soft-cover book before the Epic rules for that same reason.)
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Creative Director
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As far as I can tell, an Epic book falls squarely between an Asian themed book and Savage Species, with Asian Adventuring being more popular and Savage Species being less popular.I just don't get the fascination. Didn't when 1e Oriental Adventures came out (or was it 2e by then?), didn't for 3.5e, and still don't.
Go play Bushido or something :)
For me, the fascination is more or less due to Akira Kurosawa.
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As far as I can tell, an Epic book falls squarely between an Asian themed book and Savage Species, with Asian Adventuring being more popular and Savage Species being less popular.I just don't get the fascination. Didn't when 1e Oriental Adventures came out (or was it 2e by then?), didn't for 3.5e, and still don't.
Go play Bushido or something :)
Well, for one thing, it makes the world more complete. :) In our world, for instance, contact with the East was one of the factors that triggered the European Renaissance.
(I might even suggest adding an Arcadia/New World themed soft-cover book before the Epic rules for that same reason.)
Personally I am hoping for a full sized book of Arcadia, I personally find that very interesting.
Personally I am hoping for a full sized book of Arcadia, I personally find that very interesting.As far as I can tell, an Epic book falls squarely between an Asian themed book and Savage Species, with Asian Adventuring being more popular and Savage Species being less popular.I just don't get the fascination. Didn't when 1e Oriental Adventures came out (or was it 2e by then?), didn't for 3.5e, and still don't.
Go play Bushido or something :)
Well, for one thing, it makes the world more complete. :) In our world, for instance, contact with the East was one of the factors that triggered the European Renaissance.
(I might even suggest adding an Arcadia/New World themed soft-cover book before the Epic rules for that same reason.)
As do I, but my intuition is that there is not enough gamer interrest to justify the production costs.
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Creative Director
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Bah. Then watch the movies. Stop taking up precious developer time and publisher schedule with stuff that appeals to a niche (that I'm not in :)).
Hard to do when you don't tell me what kind of niche you ARE into, of course! :-P
(And even harder to do when you're the only one IN that niche. There's an established fan-base already interested in Asian Adventures stuff, to the point where I wouldn't really call it a niche at all.)
...There's an established fan-base already interested in Asian Adventures stuff, to the point where I wouldn't really call it a niche at all.)
All right, we'll call it a "draw."
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Personally I am hoping for a full sized book of Arcadia, I personally find that very interesting.
Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim both, IMO, did the 'faux asian' and 'faux persian' thing very well, so Arcadia would definitely be the bold new direction, since, again, IMO, Maztica did *not* do the 'faux first nations' thing very well...
And hey, maybe they can sneak in an Easter egg about the (more or less awful) Pathfinder movie, and have Ullfen raiders set up a lodge from which they pillage the local Arcadians? :)
Fun beasties like the Uqtena, Thunderbird and Hide-Behind can get statted up!
Why people don't roll more then 1 dice at a time is beyond me.Real men sculpt bowling balls into polyhedra. I'd like to see you roll more than one of those with a single hand, Mr. Urza!
Real wimps, you mean.
I use reshaped planets to roll. And I do use more than one at once. Why do you think I invented solar systems? Dice bags are derived from my idea I call "galaxy".
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As far as I can tell, an Epic book falls squarely between an Asian themed book and Savage Species, with Asian Adventuring being more popular and Savage Species being less popular.I just don't get the fascination. Didn't when 1e Oriental Adventures came out (or was it 2e by then?), didn't for 3.5e, and still don't.
Go play Bushido or something :)
The Oriental Adventures hardbound book was definately AD&D (ie First Edition) not Second Edition. We actually played quite a bit of Oriental Adventures D&D back then and loved it!
We also played Bushido - it was a really cool game. Man, I haven't thought about Bushido in a long time ...
I am very much in the camp that is anxious to see what Paizo does with an Asian style rules suppliment ...
Whether or not it would actually be profitable at all is a big part of why we haven't tried yet, to be honest. The fact that producing high/epic level content takes more time and more work yet, according to ALL of our market research and anecdotal feedback and overall customer feedback won't appeal to as many customers (more work for less reward) makes it a tricky topic to design for.It would be profitable if you tackled it sooner than later I would suggest.Epic level gaming is NOT a small fraction of gaming. I'm quite aware of that. I would say it's probably neck and neck in popularity with psionics, in fact, and maybe even a bit MORE popular.
It's something that I really REALLY want us to tackle some day at Paizo, but that day won't be in 2010. It is unlikely to be in 2011 either.
I guess my point James is that my group and I are still using the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, combined with the changes that occurred in the Complete books and the 3.5 DM's guide, thus, we are really behind on Epic level rules and this is totally different than an Asian supplement - it's part of the regular progression! I think it's imperative to approach the subject before 2012, or at the very least put out a shorter guide to it, like one of the Chronicles books. Regardless, an Epic Guide is absolutely necessary. Lots of players don't just want to reset their characters after 16th level.
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Creative Director
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I guess my point James is that my group and I are still using the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, combined with the changes that occurred in the Complete books and the 3.5 DM's guide, thus, we are really behind on Epic level rules and this is totally different than an Asian supplement - it's part of the regular progression! I think it's imperative to approach the subject before 2012, or at the very least put out a shorter guide to it, like one of the Chronicles books. Regardless, an Epic Guide is absolutely necessary. Lots of players don't just want to reset their characters after 16th level.
Honestly, I more or less share your viewpoint. Not everyone at Paizo does, though. I'm working on convincing them though.
Although it's not quite as cut and dried as "just part of progression." Because Golarion itself isn't built for epic level play, really. When we do Epic, we need to also figure out where epic level characters can find regular challenges. The obvious answer is "the outer planes" but it could just as easily be "another planet" or even "another continent."
Adding an Asian area to Golarion is a LOT easier, and a lot more organic, even, in that regard.
Just make the Epic field of play the Orient. Done! ;)
I think it's imperative to approach the subject before 2012, or at the very least put out a shorter guide to it, like one of the Chronicles books.
Well, to be completely honest, isn't everything imperative to approach before 2012? I mean, the calendar ending and all... hey, wait, I just looked at my calendar here... we only have until December 31 this year. OH MY GOD, James, you're a doctor not... wait. Ahem, I mean, you have less than nine months to get epic out, OH NOES!!!
The obvious answer is "the outer planes" but it could just as easily be "another planet" or even "another continent."
The secret cow level.
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Personally I am hoping for a full sized book of Arcadia, I personally find that very interesting.Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim both, IMO, did the 'faux asian' and 'faux persian' thing very well, so Arcadia would definitely be the bold new direction, since, again, IMO, Maztica did *not* do the 'faux first nations' thing very well...
And hey, maybe they can sneak in an Easter egg about the (more or less awful) Pathfinder movie, and have Ullfen raiders set up a lodge from which they pillage the local Arcadians? :)
Fun beasties like the Uqtena, Thunderbird and Hide-Behind can get statted up!
Yeah there has not been much done about that type of setting and what little was done was bad. Cute about the Ullfens, i just hope we see such a book preferably as a full sized book. Though is likely 2011 if we are really really lucky at the soonest.
I guess my point James is that my group and I are still using the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, combined with the changes that occurred in the Complete books and the 3.5 DM's guide, thus, we are really behind on Epic level rules and this is totally different than an Asian supplement - it's part of the regular progression! I think it's imperative to approach the subject before 2012, or at the very least put out a shorter guide to it, like one of the Chronicles books. Regardless, an Epic Guide is absolutely necessary. Lots of players don't just want to reset their characters after 16th level.Honestly, I more or less share your viewpoint. Not everyone at Paizo does, though. I'm working on convincing them though.
Although it's not quite as cut and dried as "just part of progression." Because Golarion itself isn't built for epic level play, really. When we do Epic, we need to also figure out where epic level characters can find regular challenges. The obvious answer is "the outer planes" but it could just as easily be "another planet" or even "another continent."
Adding an Asian area to Golarion is a LOT easier, and a lot more organic, even, in that regard.
I appreciate that. and I know that all of this is just blowing smoke because sales rules editorial (I am an exec editor myself and know it). But don't get fixated on "Golarion" despite the editorial requirements, what I mean by that is that it's really up to the DM to provide those challenges (so "rules-needs" takes initiative over "what-the-world-can-sustain" IMHO). Maybe you can convince the CEO by putting a higher premium on a shorter-page count product. I would gladly pay $39.95 for a 26 - 36 page booklet (with real specifics, good meaty stuff including powerful NPC builds) for high level play - basically with core rules, the complete book feats revised, experience progression that makes sense, and so on and so on (you know what I am talking about). Or, another idea is to cull those inventive authors who created some of the best high-level builds over the years and make an "Epic Anthology". I don't know, all this is pie in the sky but it really feels like we need it.
snip
Although it's not quite as cut and dried as "just part of progression." Because Golarion itself isn't built for epic level play, really. When we do Epic, we need to also figure out where epic level characters can find regular challenges. The obvious answer is "the outer planes" but it could just as easily be "another planet" or even "another continent."
Adding an Asian area to Golarion is a LOT easier, and a lot more organic, even, in that regard.
You've finally put into words what's been apparent for a while now; that Golarion isn't really built for epic level play. And that's fine, actually. There is tons of stuff that could be done on both the outer planes, as well as the various planets (Akiton & Castrovel), that would require much hardier adventurers to survive. You could also do a "dangerous continent" (I made the Dark Sun world of Athas really just an interdicted continent on the other side of Oerth, for example), though that is more of a stretch. But it might have the advantage of being on Golarion itself.
Anyway, I'm encouraged you're fighting the good fight for those of us that do want higher-level material. So thanks.