I saw this in the store, and had already purchased it, but noticed that it is severely lacking high-level NPC's. Kinda blows. Each section should have had an example of a low level and a high level like a CR4 and a CR 15. Would have made it much more useful.
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Also, there's the page count to consider. Having a low-level and a high-level NPC for each region would mean that a lot of regions would have to be cut from the book. Also, the low-to-mid level range present in the book fits with the general level range in other Pathfinder Chronicles sourcebooks. The high-level NPCs are mostly seen in the adventure paths.
I'm thinking I'll have there be fog and a very light during the first encounter in the marketplace, cutting down on visibility. If the vampires go gaseous, I'll treat them as invisible when making stealth checks to move around.
For the island hideout, maybe make it a cold environment? It's below the water level of a lake that's less than 40* farenheit, so it would probably be pretty chilly down there.
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I'm thinking I'll have there be fog and a very light during the first encounter in the marketplace, cutting down on visibility. If the vampires go gaseous, I'll treat them as invisible when making stealth checks to move around.
For the island hideout, maybe make it a cold environment? It's below the water level of a lake that's less than 40* farenheit, so it would probably be pretty chilly down there.
I hope the Vampire is at least a high level npc ;)
I hope the Vampire is at least a high level npc ;)I'm thinking I'll have there be fog and a very light during the first encounter in the marketplace, cutting down on visibility. If the vampires go gaseous, I'll treat them as invisible when making stealth checks to move around.
For the island hideout, maybe make it a cold environment? It's below the water level of a lake that's less than 40* farenheit, so it would probably be pretty chilly down there.
Crap! Sorry, wrong thread. Darnation...
That's sad to hear since the worst thing a dm has to do in 3.5/Pathfinder is make high level npcs. In my opinion what is the point of a book like this?
Creative Director
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That's sad to hear since the worst thing a dm has to do in 3.5/Pathfinder is make high level npcs. In my opinion what is the point of a book like this?
The point is that the book supplies stats for the most COMMONLY encountered NPC types; characters that can show up in low and mid-level games. In Golarion, high level NPCs are somewhat rare; and those that exist are generally important famous NPCs. We decided that the "NPC Guide" was not the right place to stat up these characters. I've asked on other threads if people would be interested in a sort of sequel to the NPC Guide that focuses on high level NPCs such as the rulers and villains of Golarion, and the response to that has traditionally been quite underwhelming. People, as a general rule, seem to prefer their high level NPCs to appear in adventures.
The GameMastery Guide, though, will have lots more generic NPCs, with a focus toward TRULY generic characters (the NPC guide flavors everything with a heavy dose of Golarion). These NPCs in the GameMastery Guide will go up to around 15th level.
+1, Golarion is a low-power world. At lvl 15, you're among the strongest in the region. At level 20, you're on par with ancient wizard-kings.
But only the weaker ones.
Here's what I read out of James's post
We'll do a separate book with nothing but high-level named NPCs in it.
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Creative Director
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+1, Golarion is a low-power world. At lvl 15, you're among the strongest in the region. At level 20, you're on par with ancient wizard-kings.But only the weaker ones.
Not sure where you get this. Karzoug is one of those ancient wizard kings, and he's at about that power level, and we've established that of the 7 runelords he's the middle in the power band, with three more powerful ones and three less powerful ones.
Actually, this sets me on a short tangent. Despite the fact that Pathfinder (and before it 3.5 D&D) details the game up to 20th level is not necessarily proof that PCs should ever go up to that level, because the game needs to support the creation and working of NPC foes who can challenge a party of PCs. That means that if you have a group of PCs, the game needs to support the creation of a solitary monster that can challenge a group of 4 to 5 players. A single 20th level NPC would be a great challenge to throw at a group of 15th or 16th level characters, so the game needs to support up to 20th level in order for the GM to create 15th level challenges.
Once the PCs hit 20th level, the game should TECHNICALLY allow for the creation of, say, 25th level NPCs. It does, but not directly by providing 25 levels of class options, and this is part of the reason, I think, that high level play breaks down.
It's not a very intuitive thing, though, since a player who is presented with 25 levels of options is likely going to want to be able to access those 25 levels, at which point you'd need a game capable of handling 30 levels, and the arms race continues.
Anyway, all of that is a big reason why Golarion's NPCs and Adventure Paths do what they do.
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I've asked on other threads if people would be interested in a sort of sequel to the NPC Guide that focuses on high level NPCs such as the rulers and villains of Golarion, and the response to that has traditionally been quite underwhelming. People, as a general rule, seem to prefer their high level NPCs to appear in adventures.
Well then I certainly didn't see those threads. I for one love the NPC guide. It's exactly what I hoped for, mainly because I LOVED the Heroes' Lorebook and Villains' Lorebook. They were two wonder AD&D Forgotten Realms supplements that were basically background and stat books for the popular characters and npcs of the Forgotten Realms.
I would love a book the focused specifically on "iconic" good and evil characters of Golarion. If they were two separate books the size of the NPC Guide, even better!
I've asked on other threads if people would be interested in a sort of sequel to the NPC Guide that focuses on high level NPCs such as the rulers and villains of Golarion, and the response to that has traditionally been quite underwhelming. People, as a general rule, seem to prefer their high level NPCs to appear in adventures.Well then I certainly didn't see those threads. I for one love the NPC guide. It's exactly what I hoped for, mainly because I LOVED the Heroes' Lorebook and Villains' Lorebook. They were two wonder AD&D Forgotten Realms supplements that were basically background and stat books for the popular characters and npcs of the Forgotten Realms.
I would love a book the focused specifically on "iconic" good and evil characters of Golarion. If they were two separate books the size of the NPC Guide, even better!
I loved those books as well, FR classics!
That's sad to hear since the worst thing a dm has to do in 3.5/Pathfinder is make high level npcs. In my opinion what is the point of a book like this?The point is that the book supplies stats for the most COMMONLY encountered NPC types; characters that can show up in low and mid-level games. In Golarion, high level NPCs are somewhat rare; and those that exist are generally important famous NPCs. We decided that the "NPC Guide" was not the right place to stat up these characters. I've asked on other threads if people would be interested in a sort of sequel to the NPC Guide that focuses on high level NPCs such as the rulers and villains of Golarion, and the response to that has traditionally been quite underwhelming. People, as a general rule, seem to prefer their high level NPCs to appear in adventures.
The GameMastery Guide, though, will have lots more generic NPCs, with a focus toward TRULY generic characters (the NPC guide flavors everything with a heavy dose of Golarion). These NPCs in the GameMastery Guide will go up to around 15th level.
Thanks for the clarification. I am not suggesting it's not a good buy to any degree, just that low levels last only so long, the advancement to around 4th - 6th level in a weekly game happens quickly so it makes sense to cover a broader scope of level ranges to accomodate this difference. Especially since all of these arcs take characters to 16th level and then everyone starts over again. I've had some of my players say, oh man, another mod? Let's just keep playing the guys we have built so much time on and keep it rocking. That's why I think higher level PC's are good , but as a sequel I think it makes sense as a marketing decision.
I saw this in the store, and had already purchased it, but noticed that it is severely lacking high-level NPC's. Kinda blows. Each section should have had an example of a low level and a high level like a CR4 and a CR 15. Would have made it much more useful.
I'll be darned. I've NOTICED this product before. I even participated in its discussion thread. But I never considered actually GETTING it until I read this post. Somehow, I assumed it would have tons of high-level characters I would never use. Now... I'll think about it.
Well lets also remember that just because the players hit level 15~16 doesn't mean the sheriff of every village they enter suddenly needs to be level 15~20 too. The PC's might get to high level but that doesn't mean everyone else in the world has too -- the rest of the people (read NPCs) are still going to be in the level 4~9 range which has been typical of pathfinder (to date) and are still going to need things, have quests and the like.
I guess my point is the arms race doesn't have to just be "oh my players are high level so the NPCs need to be too." A mid level group of NPCs with hostages can still be a challenge for a high level group, as can MONSTERS which are still out there in large numbers.
Overall I think the APs that Paizo has put out do a great job of illustrating how high level PCs don't require high level NPCs to be challenged. Monsters, traps, hard quests, and challenging situations make up more of the encounters I have seen for the last couple of books in the APs than high level NPCs. I think this is a good trend that should be encourage. After all verisimilitude breaks when suddenly the whole world levels up with the player characters and when the town they've been saving this whole time suddenly ends up with a sheriff that's level 15 -- when last week he was merely level 7.
The point is that the book supplies stats for the most COMMONLY encountered NPC types; characters that can show up in low and mid-level games. In Golarion, high level NPCs are somewhat rare; and those that exist are generally important famous NPCs. We decided that the "NPC Guide" was not the right place to stat up these characters. I've asked on other threads if people would be interested in a sort of sequel to the NPC Guide that focuses on high level NPCs such as the rulers and villains of Golarion, and the response to that has traditionally been quite underwhelming. People, as a general rule, seem to prefer their high level NPCs to appear in adventures.
I also got the feeling that many of these NPCs already have the core character, so it would be "relatively" easy to add additional levels and equipment if a higher level version was going to be needed.
I loved those books as well, FR classics!I've asked on other threads if people would be interested in a sort of sequel to the NPC Guide that focuses on high level NPCs such as the rulers and villains of Golarion, and the response to that has traditionally been quite underwhelming. People, as a general rule, seem to prefer their high level NPCs to appear in adventures.Well then I certainly didn't see those threads. I for one love the NPC guide. It's exactly what I hoped for, mainly because I LOVED the Heroes' Lorebook and Villains' Lorebook. They were two wonder AD&D Forgotten Realms supplements that were basically background and stat books for the popular characters and npcs of the Forgotten Realms.
I would love a book the focused specifically on "iconic" good and evil characters of Golarion. If they were two separate books the size of the NPC Guide, even better!
You know, in my youth I loved them as well, but to be honest, I'm now one of those guys that really doesn't want to see this kind of product. Thinking back, I'm not so sure that having Elminster's or Khelben's stats did anything for my game. Yeah, if I was going to use them, I wanted to know what they acted like and how they interacted with the world, but I don't think that the effort to stat them up or my looking at their stats did anything to help me run a campaign using them.
I used tons of NPCs from FR products that followed the "short form" stats of Name/Race/Class/Level/Alignment (and maybe deity worshiped for divine casters). Those characters worked just as well as any character that I had full stats for.
I play Star Wars Saga was well, and I have to say, having Vader or Palpatine stated up doesn't really do much for me either. Sure, they are bad guys, but in a lot of ways, if I want one of them to be the BBEG in my campaign, I'm going to build them to suit my campaign, knowing who they are.
Continuing the Saga example, there has been plenty of material that came out since the Core rulebook that better fits both characters than the original rules did.
So, I guess, in the end, I'm starting to be really happy with more broad explanations of NPCs that allow some flexibility. If an NPC is going to be the bad guy in an adventure, yes, stat them up. If a sourcebook says that so and so is a powerful evil cleric of Asmodeus, that's probably enough.
I'll go one step further. Towards the end of 3.5, I really, really wanted to see stats move into even more abstract explanations, such as Name/Race/Class/(General level, i.e. low, mid, high, epic)/Alignment.
Finally, a really big reason I'm not thrilled with fully stating out characters is because of the flood of people that either decide to "out do" the NPC, or to argue that they are a poor example of what they are suppose to be, or what have you. If you say, for example, Elminster is just an epic level CG wizard, its hard to have endless pages of how badly optimized his stats are.
Actually, this sets me on a short tangent. Despite the fact that Pathfinder (and before it 3.5 D&D) details the game up to 20th level is not necessarily proof that PCs should ever go up to that level, because the game needs to support the creation and working of NPC foes who can challenge a party of PCs. That means that if you have a group of PCs, the game needs to support the creation of a solitary monster that can challenge a group of 4 to 5 players. A single 20th level NPC would be a great challenge to throw at a group of 15th or 16th level characters, so the game needs to support up to 20th level in order for the GM to create 15th level challenges.
Once the PCs hit 20th level, the game should TECHNICALLY allow for the creation of, say, 25th level NPCs. It does, but not directly by providing 25 levels of class options, and this is part of the reason, I think, that high level play breaks down.
It's not a very intuitive thing, though, since a player who is presented with 25 levels of options is likely going to want to be able to access those 25 levels, at which point you'd need a game capable of handling 30 levels, and the arms race continues.
Anyway, all of that is a big reason why Golarion's NPCs and Adventure Paths do what they do.
This is an interesting point to me. One of the interesting aspects of WOTC's Dawn of Defiance campaign was the design choices made to make it a 1-20th level campaign.
Spoilers for Dawn of Defiance:
A big reason for this seemed to be that the campaign had to span 20 levels because the rules provide for 20 levels, but in all honesty, most Star Wars heroes really seem as if they would naturally cap out (not unlike Pathfinder heroes) around 15th level.
I greatly appreciate Rodney Thompson's retrospective on the campaign, but one point that he didn't address was that perhaps a "full" campaign doesn't have to push right up to the upper end of what the rules account for.
This ain't the Forgooten Realms, no 15th level bartenders here ;)
I would hope high NPCs will will continue to show up only in specific story arcs or specific locations only.
You know, the only 15th level bartender I can recall in the Forgotten Realms was Durnan, who was the owner of an extremely famous and important inn in Waterdeep, arguably the most important city in Faerun, and who was also secretly one of the Hidden Lords of the city.
One of the "problems" with the Forgotten Realms was that, even though baseline 3.5 actually assumed that every major city would have epic level characters, the Forgotten Realms actually had names and histories for many of them. This gave the impression that it was a phenomenon native to the Realms, when it really wasn't.
The only place that was really "overbalanced" between NPC levels and population based on 3.5 DMG "norms" was Shadowdale. And it was kind of designed to be an exception to the rule.
Another "problem" with the Realms is how easy it is to forget how big Faerun was suppose to be, and the fact that having an epic character in Shadowdale didn't really mean that much to the thousands and thousands of settlements that were completely "normal" as far as what level people in a given town would be.
I know of Tabra (Ioulaum's apprentice) beside Durnan.
This ain't the Forgooten Realms, no 15th level bartenders here ;)
What about The Name of the Wind?
I know of Tabra (Ioulaum's apprentice) beside Durnan.
This ain't the Forgooten Realms, no 15th level bartenders here ;)What about The Name of the Wind?
Good point, forgot about her.
This is a -really- useful book :)
I'll be darned. I've NOTICED this product before. I even participated in its discussion thread. But I never considered actually GETTING it until I read this post. Somehow, I assumed it would have tons of high-level characters I would never use. Now... I'll think about it.
Good to know. I was thinking about buying this book, but now I won't.
After all, it's easy enough for me to generate scads of low level NPCs. High level NPCs may be rarer in a given adventure, but those are the pre-gens that I am willing to pay money for someone else to make for me, since it takes so much longer to make them.
(Seriously, I'd give someone $20-30 right now if they could help me generate NPCs for my campaign.)
(Seriously, I'd give someone $20-30 right now if they could help me generate NPCs for my campaign.)
Sweet. What sort of NPCs are you looking for?
You're probably totally kidding, but I actually really enjoy making up characters and will sometimes stat up high-level NPCs in Heroforge just for fun...because I'm that dorky.
Good to know. I was thinking about buying this book, but now I won't.
After all, it's easy enough for me to generate scads of low level NPCs. High level NPCs may be rarer in a given adventure, but those are the pre-gens that I am willing to pay money for someone else to make for me, since it takes so much longer to make them.
This is my feeling also. I can make a low level character in 10 minutes or less. As a DM I need something to save me time at higher levels. That is what takes all of my time up. If the PC's attack some random NPC who should not need stats I see how the book could be useful, but most of the time it is not an issue. I could get around that by using another character's stats though. Paying someone for something I can easily do myself seems counter-productive*. If I have a 10-12th level version of each class then I could go from there, especially since casters take me a lot longer to make than melee types.
*Only speaking for myself, and those that don't have a lot of free time, but like to run hi-level games. This does not mean I won't buy the book, but I will look for it in a store first so I can see how much work it will save me.
PS: It is strange how popular SC and AoW are, but the consensus is that hi-level games don't sell. I would love to have a pathfinderized version of AoW in hardback.
(Seriously, I'd give someone $20-30 right now if they could help me generate NPCs for my campaign.)Sweet. What sort of NPCs are you looking for?
You're probably totally kidding, but I actually really enjoy making up characters and will sometimes stat up high-level NPCs in Heroforge just for fun...because I'm that dorky.
Darn, beat me to it. I am number 2 on the list if the need arrives.
(Seriously, I'd give someone $20-30 right now if they could help me generate NPCs for my campaign.)Sweet. What sort of NPCs are you looking for?
You're probably totally kidding, but I actually really enjoy making up characters and will sometimes stat up high-level NPCs in Heroforge just for fun...because I'm that dorky.
If there was a reasonable way of sending payment and you produced quality (few errors, easy to read statblock, effective in doing what they need to do), I'd take you up. :)
(ETA: Same goes to you wraithstrike. :) )
I just spent like an hour and a half just making one NPC for the 17th level campaign I'm running (mind, this was a particularly complex and atypical character, but still). It's fun for a little while, but gets tiresome after a bit. I think if after I finish running this campaign, I'll compile and post all the NPCs I made so other people can use them.
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Well, anybody with half a brain and half an hour can calculate an NPC, get the numbers and crunch right. No rocket science. And no knowledge of the campaign setting required, either.
But not anybody can make an NPC with a good backstory which fits into his background and the game world. That takes something more than Heroforge and spare time, hence this book. It's part of the Chronicles line, so it's a campaign setting accessory. I think that the Gamemastery Guide is supposed to have high-lvl generic statblocks.
Also, regarding hardcover AoW: never gonna happen. It's WotC property.
Well, anybody with half a brain and half an hour can calculate an NPC, get the numbers and crunch right. No rocket science. And no knowledge of the campaign setting required, either.
But not anybody can make an NPC with a good backstory which fits into his background and the game world. That takes something more than Heroforge and spare time, hence this book. It's part of the Chronicles line, so it's a campaign setting accessory. I think that the Gamemastery Guide is supposed to have high-lvl generic statblocks.
Also, regarding hardcover AoW: never gonna happen. It's WotC property.
I know, but the point was I think it would sell. I can make a good enough character in 15 minutes even at level 12+, but a really good character normally takes longer if I want the same CR level NPC to really push the PC's. Many people also have to look up feats which takes up even more time because prerequisites and the limitations of the feats are not always known so I doubt anybody can do it in half an hour, especially if they go outside of core.
(Seriously, I'd give someone $20-30 right now if they could help me generate NPCs for my campaign.)Sweet. What sort of NPCs are you looking for?
You're probably totally kidding, but I actually really enjoy making up characters and will sometimes stat up high-level NPCs in Heroforge just for fun...because I'm that dorky.
If there was a reasonable way of sending payment and you produced quality (few errors, easy to read statblock, effective in doing what they need to do), I'd take you up. :)
(ETA: Same goes to you wraithstrike. :) )
I just spent like an hour and a half just making one NPC for the 17th level campaign I'm running (mind, this was a particularly complex and atypical character, but still). It's fun for a little while, but gets tiresome after a bit. I think if after I finish running this campaign, I'll compile and post all the NPCs I made so other people can use them.
Not everyone likes the same statblock format. I for example like the 3.5 Monster Manual stat block setup, better than the MM V setup. I also have a setup I use for characters(NPC's) that I don't think deserve a character sheet.
link to NPC I used from Scribd.com
If this setup works for you let me know. If not the stat block can always be changed. I am currently doing about 1 NPC per day for AoW so to add another one won't be too much trouble. I would probably give you suggested tactics also.
If there was a reasonable way of sending payment and you produced quality (few errors, easy to read statblock, effective in doing what they need to do), I'd take you up. :)
BTW, as far as effective stat-block layouts go, one way to approach this is to simply store all of the fields in a database or spreadsheet and then create different "views" of the data. That way, you only have to write up the stats once, but can easily change the presentation simply by rearranging the output.
At present, I've completed a group of MediaWiki templates that will output such data into the same format used in the Pathfinder Bestiary. My next goal is to create a second "view" that looks at the same data but lays it out in the same format as my character sheets. Still, if anyone would like these templates, just let me know. (Note that they require MediaWiki to have both Parser Functions and Array Functions installed.)
As far as the NPC book goes, its worth to me is as a go-to resource for when my party suddenly encounters (or seeks out) a particular sort of NPC for which I hadn't already planned. In such cases, it's not so much highly optimized, high-level stats that matter (the PCs are supposed to be the stars after all), but something that makes this random person more than just a one-dimensional character.
For $20, it does pretty much what I'd expect.
Now would I like it if the NPC guide had low-, mid-, and high-level variations of each character? Well yeah! However, if that were done there would have needed to be some trade-offs:
- Higher page count and higher cost
- Same page count, same number of NPCs, but MUCH less detail on the backstories
- Same page count, same amount of backstory detail, but FAR fewer NPCs
- Some mediocre combination of the above options
IMO, what we got was probably one of the better balances between quality and quantity of NPCs that we could have hoped for. FWIW, I find it far easier to add a few levels to an existing NPC given what I know of their personality and motivations than to take levels away or even brainstorm a new one from scratch.
Lastly, unless someone was going to be able to sell the custom NPCs they are statting up to many people, $20-30 for an entire campaign's worth of NPCs would be even less lucrative than painting miniatures for the amount of time required.
Just wanna say, I've been playing since 3.0 started, and never once did I play in a game that ended before 20th level. Also, I understand that generic npc's aren't going to be higher level. I don't expect them to be. But as the game progresses, you're moving past the generic and moving toward something bigger and better, and as such the npc's aren't going to be generic. They'll be very specific, named, once great adventurers, or villains. No longer will you be able to upgrade your super-magical weapon at the Generic Magic Shoppe. You'll have to go seek Mildar, the Archmagus of Item Enchanting, and hope he doesn't send you on a mission to pluck scales off the head of a great red wyrm.
It sure would be nice, and a load off, if there was a book of NPCs like that, detailing specific, high level NPCs.
I understand that generic npc's aren't going to be higher level. I don't expect them to be. But as the game progresses, you're moving past the generic and moving toward something bigger and better, and as such the npc's aren't going to be generic. They'll be very specific, named, once great adventurers, or villains.
It sure would be nice, and a load off, if there was a book of NPCs like that, detailing specific, high level NPCs.
Not that I can't sympathize with the workload, but I suspect a book that focused on very specific NPCs wouldn't have as much commercial appeal to a more generic, broader consumer base.
While I'm not you (or your DM), "game-changers" are not the sort of NPCs that I would want left to chance encounters. They are the NPCs that I'll obsess over creating and optimizing because they are either the antagonist of a significant part of the campaign, or a large part of the campaign world's backstory.
While I like all the lore and impressive epic characters that Forgotten Realms boasts, I'd much rather dream up my own power players for my campaign world. I figure I owe it to my creative vision [for my homebrew] and my players to do so.
Also, from what I've read, it seems like Paizo is trying to stay away from populating their world with lots of personalities that DMs should have to keep up with. In essence, there is already a Faerun/Toril, so there's no need to reinvent that wheel. (Incidentally, that might be a good setting from which you could "mine" the sort of high-powered, specific NPCs you're talking about.)
Not everyone likes the same statblock format. I for example like the 3.5 Monster Manual stat block setup, better than the MM V setup. I also have a setup I use for characters(NPC's) that I don't think deserve a character sheet.link to NPC I used from Scribd.com
If this setup works for you let me know. If not the stat block can always be changed. I am currently doing about 1 NPC per day for AoW so to add another one won't be too much trouble. I would probably give you suggested tactics also.
That's actually very nicely done. I use my own statblock setup for my own NPCs, but it's closer to that than what PF/MMV uses. Mainly, the only differences are that I put movement and face/reach at the top of the page (I don't want to dig into the middle of the statblock to remind myself how many squares something moves) and I put ALL offensive and defensive abilities under the respective "offense" and "defense" categories (so a Special Quality that helps a creature protect itself goes under Defense, and a Special Ability that is more or less an attack-based ability, goes right under Offense, so I don't have to look at more than one section of the statblock to figure out what I want to do when the character attacks).
So I stop derailing this discussion, if you (or kelso or whomever) is interested in actually working something out, drop me an email -- this username at gmail.
(This is EXACTLY why this board needs a PM function.)
Just wanna say, I've been playing since 3.0 started, and never once did I play in a game that ended before 20th level.You are in the vast, VAST minority.
That statement's a bit hyperbolic, I think. I think people who play in high level campaigns certainly are in smaller numbers than people in low level campaigns, but "vast, VAST" stretches it, at least based on my (admittedly circumstantial) experience. I also don't think being in the minority negates that person's opinion. I'm always disappointed to see someone discounted just because their experience is different from the majority (Mind, I'm also in this "minority" so I have a stake in this, to be fair.)
That said, I think as far as the game MARKET goes, the issue is that more people BUY lower level stuff. I think that's because people who run high level campaigns do a lot of their own homebrew stuff so aren't buying as much material. It doesn't mean they don't exist, but unfortunately it means that big game companies like Paizo have no interest in their feedback.
And there's sort of a negative cycle here... there isn't a lot of high level material, so high level campaign GMs end up making their own stuff, and then because high level campaign GMs start making their own stuff, the market for high level materials becomes even smaller, because GMs have learned to make do and don't want to buy anything anymore, and by the time something new comes on the scene they've become happy with what they've got.
The problem is that while there are fewer of us, those of us who do run higher level campaigns I think sometimes would give our eyeteeth for even a modicum of support. But if your business is making money, our few eyeteeth just aren't incentive enough. And I can't say I begrudge someone wanting to make money.
If I could ever get myself and my experienced gamer friends organized enough, I'd love to put out some cheap or free .pdfs to help fill the void that is and will probably remain Pathfinder at high levels, for those of us who do want the challenge (whether we could produce quality work is a discussion for another time... :( ). I don't have an investment in making money in this particular manner, I'd just like to see all kinds of Pathfinder players served, even if the people we helped out far from constituted the majority.
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Just to give myself a fair shake, I didn't say that Slatz's opinion was nullified, and I didn't say that there shouldn't be support for people who play high level campaigns. I love the bredth and depth of support for high-level campaigns that is out there for Forgotten Realms. Heck, my friends and I used to pick a God each and have a three-week deific duel.
What I did say is that it is extremely, exceedingly rare to encounter a player who never once in their XX years of playing has ever once ended a campaign anywhere short of 20th level. That's rare. Like, LE Unicorn rare.
Just to give myself a fair shake, I didn't say that Slatz's opinion was nullified, and I didn't say that there shouldn't be support for people who play high level campaigns. I love the bredth and depth of support for high-level campaigns that is out there for Forgotten Realms. Heck, my friends and I used to pick a God each and have a three-week deific duel.
What I did say is that it is extremely, exceedingly rare to encounter a player who never once in their XX years of playing has ever once ended a campaign anywhere short of 20th level. That's rare. Like, LE Unicorn rare.
I suppose I assumed you were discounting the other poster, because I couldn't figure why else you would bring up the rarity of the experience, based on the tone of the conversation so far.
Strangely, most D&D players I've met have played at least one campaign that ended at 20th level or beyond, if not multiple ones (or roughly the equivalent for AD&D and other variations on D&D). Maybe it's a local gamer culture thing.
My apologies for jumping to a conclusion.
If only there was Forgotten Realms-like support now. But that was a very old, very well established setting. They had a LOT of time to come up with all that material.
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Strangely, most D&D players I've met have played at least one campaign that ended at 20th level or beyond, if not multiple ones (or roughly the equivalent for AD&D and other variations on D&D). Maybe it's a local gamer culture thing.
I've played a few that did, and I'm sure most people have. Of course, that's a far cry from NEVER ending short of 20th level in any campaign. That's pretty unique, I'd think.
If only there was Forgotten Realms-like support now. But that was a very old, very well established setting. They had a LOT of time to come up with all that material.
I couldn't agree more. Even as a mostly low-level character in FR, knowing that Elminster was statted somewhere got me excited about the setting. I loved that there was a "Justin Timberlake Of Wizards" out there somewhere, someone whose exploits had made them famous enough to be known the Realms over. I loved the hands-on nature of the pantheon. I loved just about everything about 3.5 FR, to be honest, but then 4.0 happened. That was sort of like WotC dropping the Nuclear Option on the setting. That's a discussion for another day, though.
I wish that Golarion HAD those elements. From the tone of this thread, though, I am in the vast, VAST minority ;-)
Not sure where you get this.+1, Golarion is a low-power world. At lvl 15, you're among the strongest in the region. At level 20, you're on par with ancient wizard-kings.But only the weaker ones.
From:
Karzoug is one of those ancient wizard kings, and he's at about that power level, and we've established that of the 7 runelords he's the middle in the power band, with three more powerful ones and three less powerful ones.
There are 3 more powerful ones than him. That makes him one of the weaker ones.
And, as far as I remember, Sorshen and Xanderghul were a big leap ahead of him. Something like 5 levels
So at 20th level, you are on par with ancient wizard kings, but not with the best of them.
I'm not saying that 20th level (or even 15th level) is really, really powerful, but I'm saying that 20th level isn't quite at the very top yet.
Still, as I just said, 15th level is really, really powerful. Nothing for some faceless, generic role-filler. At this point, you're a guy with a name, a name that is almost legend, someone of great renown.
And at 20th level, you are legend (you're just not as powerful as the more powerful ancient wizard kings).
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So at 20th level, you are on par with ancient wizard kings, but not with the best of them.
I'm not saying that 20th level (or even 15th level) is really, really powerful, but I'm saying that 20th level isn't quite at the very top yet.
Still, as I just said, 15th level is really, really powerful. Nothing for some faceless, generic role-filler. At this point, you're a guy with a name, a name that is almost legend, someone of great renown.
And at 20th level, you are legend (you're just not as powerful as the more powerful ancient wizard kings).
At 20th level, he's right in the middle. If you get to say he's one of the weaker ones, I get to say he's one of the more powerful ones, since either direction there's just as many. At this point, though, it's just a self-perpetuating internet argument.
Just wanna say, I've been playing since 3.0 started, and never once did I play in a game that ended before 20th level.You are in the vast, VAST minority.
-1 my friend :)
There's a lot of us out there. Not counting our living convention campaign, I haven't run a game that was *below* 20th level since 2007.
Just wanna say, I've been playing since 3.0 started, and never once did I play in a game that ended before 20th level.You are in the vast, VAST minority.-1 my friend :)
There's a lot of us out there. Not counting our living convention campaign, I haven't run a game that was *below* 20th level since 2007.
Actually a "large minority" (as in 30~40%) might have been more politic and more accurate. :)
At 20th level, he's right in the middle. If you get to say he's one of the weaker ones, I get to say he's one of the more powerful ones, since either direction there's just as many. At this point, though, it's just a self-perpetuating internet argument.So at 20th level, you are on par with ancient wizard kings, but not with the best of them.
I'm not saying that 20th level (or even 15th level) is really, really powerful, but I'm saying that 20th level isn't quite at the very top yet.
Still, as I just said, 15th level is really, really powerful. Nothing for some faceless, generic role-filler. At this point, you're a guy with a name, a name that is almost legend, someone of great renown.
And at 20th level, you are legend (you're just not as powerful as the more powerful ancient wizard kings).
You realize that we are now going to need [i]write-ups[/b] for all seven Runelords now. ;D
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-1 my friend :)There's a lot of us out there. Not counting our living convention campaign, I haven't run a game that was *below* 20th level since 2007.
Actually a "large minority" (as in 30~40%) might have been more politic and more accurate. :)
OK, but you still spend half that time at levels 1-10, right? Or do you start at level 10 (as I know some groups do)? My point is that (for the most part) the Whole Set of gamers generally play levels 1 through let's say 12, while only a Subset play levels higher than that with any commonality. Of those players, only an even smaller Subset never, ever end a campaign anywhere shy of 20th Level for any reason whatsoever. If that smallest subset consists of 30-40% of all players, I'll eat my hat, but that's just going to be my best guess vs. everyone else's, and that's surely not the type of discussion this thread deserves. It seems like I've inadvertantly hijacked the thread with what was intended to be a casual observation, so I will hush up now. After reiterating that I would also enjoy fully fleshed out high Level NPC's and even Gods with Stat Blocks :)
I'm fully aware that the majority of gaming happens below 10th level.
I just take issue with the implication that epic-level gaming is such a small fraction of the gaming that goes on that it is irrelevant.