In an upcoming LoF campaign I'm playing the Cleric. I'm going to play the type of Cleric that everyone want you to play, that'll be the walking bandaid.
I'm going to play a middle aged Gnome and we're using 20 point buy.
Here are my intended stats...
STR 5
DEX 6
CON 12
INT 17
WIS 17
CHA 17
As I'm small and intend to wear a Breastplate and wooden shield, I can get away with a low strength score, plus the heavy load penalty of -6 Armour Check is the same as what I'll have from the Breatplate and Shield.
I really am going to be a walking healer/buffer.
1) Am I crazy for having these stats? or can it be done?
2) Have I overlooked something obvious that makes this an accident waiting to happen?
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Top end of light load for a small creature with 5 Str would be 12 lbs so far as I can tell.
Small breastplate = 15 lbs.
Small wooden shield = 2.5 lbs.
Those two items alone put you into medium load which reduces your 20 ft. movement to 15 ft. and your max run from 5x to 4x.
If you add any more equipment you are likely to get into heavy load, which would not further reduce your speed but would drop your run from x4 to x3 as well as have the associated armor check penalties and other consequences of being under heavy load.
I'm not saying don't do it, as I personally like having PC's with one or more drawbacks, though a 5 Str would be pretty weak.
Top end of light load for a small creature with 5 Str would be 12 lbs so far as I can tell.
Small breastplate = 15 lbs.
Small wooden shield = 2.5 lbs.Those two items alone put you into medium load which reduces your 20 ft. movement to 15 ft. and your max run from 5x to 4x.
If you add any more equipment you are likely to get into heavy load, which would not further reduce your speed but would drop your run from x4 to x3 as well as have the associated armor check penalties and other consequences of being under heavy load.
I'm not saying don't do it, as I personally like having PC's with one or more drawbacks, though a 5 Str would be pretty weak.
Yeah, I'm in the heavy bracket but the penalty is -6, same as the penalty for Breastplate and shield and they don't stack, you just take the worst one.
Also, DEX = Initiative = healing good guys before the bad guys get a chance to cut them into pieces :)
You're quite right but round one? Let them take some damage, I'll just heal it back up gain!
Take some of your INT and put it into DEX.
You're a Cleric. You have no REF Save. You need a wee bit of DEX.
We have a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard so that means no Knowledge junkies in the party. I want to max out Diplomacy, Kn Arcana, Kn Religion, Kn Planes, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and Heal.
The Knowledges to identify monsters and the talky stuff to, well, talk!
Dex is over-rated, lol! I'm going to fail the reflex saves anyhoo so what the heck, I thought I'd just go for it and stay at the back. I'm a Cleric of Sarenrae [Fire, Good], the Fire domain grants resist Fire and I'll buff resist electricity asap. Acid usually comes with a Fort save and cold is rare [especially in a Desert...I hope!].
I know it's a risky build but that's kinda the fun of it!
Other than that, if your DM lets you have a stat go all the way down to 5 (many won't allow it), try it out.
Start 10
Reduce to 8 [-2 pts.]Race -2
Middle-aged -1
So, you delay yourself until you are needed :)Also, DEX = Initiative = healing good guys before the bad guys get a chance to cut them into pieces :)You're quite right but round one? Let them take some damage, I'll just heal it back up gain!
Exactly, just I probably wont ever need to delay! ;)
man u are going to nerf your skills,initative,ac,reflex save and if u get hit with a str drain at a little higher levels that could kill u with just putting a 5 in there right. plus ontop of that if u get grapple u will never break free.
Good points, however...
Show me a cleric that can grapple, and I'll show you 50 that can't! It is a pity that I don't have access to Dimensional Hop ability but that's a spell-like ability and almost impossible to use in a grapple anyway.
Skills? I have a lower armour check penalty than a 3.5 cleric with full plate and a shield. To make up for that I have 7 skill points a level.
AC: I'm not a melee cleric so AC is irrelevant really. Saves, in general, are more important, imo.
Initiative: I don't need to go first, I'm the healer, you need to get damaged first - then I'll burst some love!
Strength Damage/Drain: My main weakness for sure, but it's those weaknesses that make it all the more fun!
So basically I'm against the term "nerf" as that implies that we all have to play the classes the same, which we don't in Pathfinder and that's why I play Pathfinder over 4th Edition [wash-soap-mouth!].
I know you're just pointing out the weaknesses and I do appreciate the post honestly. I'm just really into playing odd-ball characters with unusual stats. I want to think outside the box even if it does eventually kill me! Thanks for the feedback.
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The only thing I will add, from experience playing the medic (in the game I literally walked behind the Barbarian with my hand on his shoulder, if he ran faster than I could, I'd cuss him out and threaten to heal the Sorcerer instead of him!)
A medic with a reach weapon, and can easily hit an AC 10, can be very valuable to tanks by using the Aid Another in Combat. You won't need to heal EVERY single round, and sometimes you just need to save the buffs for later (I HATE buffs having rounds per level instead of hours per level like they used to and should- just wastes spell slots and blows your spells to make sure the party has the "fifteen minute adventuring day.") So for times when you need to hold onto your spells, you don't have to be useless, instead you can give your tank a +2 to hit just by waving the reach weapon around.
NOTE: Soft Cover Rules, your tank often times provides soft cover to your target if you are in a direct line. Stand to the side or get your attack up high enough to easily deal with the AC bonus the defender gets.
Those are quite crippling weaknesses if you ask me. Sure, it can probably be done, but it won't be easy.
Your defences suck. Okay, reflex was never the cleric's strong point, but this guy will have trouble avoiding a pitfall he can see from a mile off. Fortitude is okay I guess.
And then there's AC and CMD. Your AC will stink, and your CMD will be even worse. Sure, you say you don't need AC, but your enemies will disagree. You don't have a wizard's defensive powers - it's harder for you to use illusions to mislead the enemy, you have a harder time turning invisible, and you probably won't be able to fly away. And a CMD this low means that imps can trip and grapple you!
And I hope you have someone to carry your stuff...
Of course, str and dex damage are a problem, too, but you'd have similar problems with just one stat that low (though the number of venomous creatures that can put you out of the fight faster than you can say snaaake is twice as big as otherwise).
Anyway, you could, and probably should, go the cloistered cleric route if the GM allows it. Your attack rolls and CMB/CMD are set to auto-fail, anyway, you might as well get some more skill points out of it.
Those are quite crippling weaknesses if you ask me. Sure, it can probably be done, but it won't be easy.
Your defences suck. Okay, reflex was never the cleric's strong point, but this guy will have trouble avoiding a pitfall he can see from a mile off. Fortitude is okay I guess.
And then there's AC and CMD. Your AC will stink, and your CMD will be even worse. Sure, you say you don't need AC, but your enemies will disagree. You don't have a wizard's defensive powers - it's harder for you to use illusions to mislead the enemy, you have a harder time turning invisible, and you probably won't be able to fly away. And a CMD this low means that imps can trip and grapple you!
And I hope you have someone to carry your stuff...
Of course, str and dex damage are a problem, too, but you'd have similar problems with just one stat that low (though the number of venomous creatures that can put you out of the fight faster than you can say snaaake is twice as big as otherwise).
Anyway, you could, and probably should, go the cloistered cleric route if the GM allows it. Your attack rolls and CMB/CMD are set to auto-fail, anyway, you might as well get some more skill points out of it.
Agreed, there will be sucky bits!
If I get grappled, I'm in trouble, but then most Clerics are tbo. This is one area where I will have to be careful!
Carrying Stuff...
I have the following gear [at level 1]
Xbow
Scale Mail
Heavy Wooden Shield
Dagger
Bolts x20
Cleric's Vestments
Backpack
Bedroll
Chalk x10
Flint/Steel
Rope, 50ft silk
Torch x5
Holy Symbol, wooden
That's a total of 36.75 lbs. and I can carry upto 50lbs. I will need a Handy Haversack soonish to be sure.
Fort save is ok but again I'll be at the back as much as possible to avoid those Poison/Diseases.
On the bright side pretty anyone can pick me up and carry me over the pitfall...I hope!
If you can use 3.5 stuff, take the Insightful Reflexes feat, which lets you use Intelligence instead of Dex for reflex saves.
Agreed, there will be sucky bits!If I get grappled, I'm in trouble, but then most Clerics are tbo. This is one area where I will have to be careful!
Yes, but most clerics are only in trouble if they're confronted by fighter types. Your character will be so weak that enemy wizards will send their familiars to grapple you! ;-P
Seriously: You're weak and clumsy, and not just a bit, but really, really much so. You can bet that it shows, and unless an enemy is really dumb, he'll realise that he can ruin your day by sending just about anything at you to wrestle you to the ground eat mud cakes.
That's a total of 36.75 lbs. and I can carry upto 50lbs. I will need a Handy Haversack soonish to be sure.
Oh no, you can't. You're a little gnome. You can only carry 3/4 of what a human with your strength score could carry.
So you can carry no more than 37.5. So you're just below your heavy load - and you didn't notice money. Remember that 50 coins weigh one pound (and there are no halfling coins that only weigh half as much as usual).
It's every adventurer's dream to find more gold than they can carry, and you'll reach that dream long before level 2! :D
Fort save is ok but again I'll be at the back as much as possible to avoid those Poison/Diseases.
The best laid plans of mice and men - and you're one of the mice with your size and strength there (though mice are more agile!). You might have the intention to stay at the back, away from the direct combat.
Your enemies might have different plans: Targeted spells (you scream "USE FORT AND REF MAGIC ON ME! GET ME OUT OF THE FIGHT EARLY! QUICK AND EASY HEALING DENIAL!"), poisoned arrows, or just some bastard who doesn't play by the "only attack front line warriors" rule.
I don't want to ruin your fun with this idea, I just think you need to consider all eventualities, not just those you consider your ideal combat situation (unless your GM is one of those wimps who feels it's wrong to exploit someone's obvious weaknesses ;-P)
Yes, but most clerics are only in trouble if they're confronted by fighter types. Your character will be so weak that enemy wizards will send their familiars to grapple you! ;-P
That's a total of 36.75 lbs. and I can carry upto 50lbs. I will need a Handy Haversack soonish to be sure.
Oh no, you can't. You're a little gnome. You can only carry 3/4 of what a human with your strength score could carry.
To solve the CMD problem I need Strength and Dex. I don't want strength and dex! My goal will be to protect myself from my weaknesses, I appreciate that it's going to be hard but I don't want to play the normal cleric with the usual stats, I want to be different and risk the danger of being grappled by the frog familiar!!
Good catch on the carrying capacities! totally forgot that bit!! Looks like I'll have to leave my chalk at home! Seriously though I've dropped the torches and rope [saving 10lbs of weight] and I may drop down to a light shield too!
Alternatively I may change my stats a little [Grrr...]
Str 8 [allowing up to 60lbs of weight]
Dex 6
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 17
Cha 17
Agreed, there will be sucky bits!If I get grappled, I'm in trouble, but then most Clerics are too. This is one area where I will have to be careful!
Carrying Stuff...
I have the following gear [at level 1]
Xbow
Scale Mail
Heavy Wooden Shield
Dagger
Bolts x20
Cleric's Vestments
Backpack
Bedroll
Chalk x10
Flint/Steel
Rope, 50ft silk
Torch x5
Holy Symbol, woodenThat's a total of 36.75 lbs. and I can carry upto 50lbs. I will need a Handy Haversack soonish to be sure.
Fort save is ok but again I'll be at the back as much as possible to avoid those Poison/Diseases.
Don't count on it. If you can make it through this entire campaign without being attacked or making a fort save, you're probably dating your GM. :P There are snakes and spiders in the desert. Be prepared to be immobilized at 0 from strength or dex damage in the middle of dungeons. Consider how useful your character is as a paraplegic.
Notes on your character:
You're already heavily encumbered. If you try to wear much more gear, you'll be immobile.
The most effective characters are always the ones who are generalists. Are you planning on healing spontaneously and casting bonus and buff spells? If not, why do you hate yourself? Consider the usefulness of your character. What does your character do when nobody is taking damage?
Your character is begging to be drowned. -6 from check penalties (even without your shield, a -6) check penalty and -3 from low strength. It's a DC10 check to swim. You have a 5% chance (nat 20 only succeeds) to make this check. You will likely drown if you ever go into water, and you _will_ drown if you ever have to swim in say, the rough water of the ocean or a fast-running river. If you say that LoF is a desert campaign and you'll never see water, be prepared to be wrong. If I was your enemy, I'd grapple you and throw you into a lake. :P
Your character will often go last with a -2 dex mod. This will be too late to react to actual threats. Ambushes will be deadly for your party since the enemies will likely get two turns before you can go. Ambushes with grappling foes will be death for your party if they grapple you. Most enemies aren't morons, so they will notice a trend and begin to swarm you. If I was your GM, two enemies in every fight would flank and grapple you down while their friends fight your friends. (This isn't true for some GMs since they go super easy on their players instead of exploiting weaknesses-- if your GM holds your hand through adventures this won't come up much.) Your CMB is -3 and your CMD is 5. *5*. Consider that if they see this frail old gnome in the back healing, almost any enemy can approach you without improved grapple and make that roll if they don't roll a one. The gnolls in LoF can do it on a 2 or better. Even if they provoke, you have to hit them on a -3, which is 18 or above, to do 1d6-3 damage. This adds as much as 3 to their grapple check, so essentially any enemy in the entirety of the campaign will be able to grapple, trip, bullrush, sunder or disarm you on a five or better.
Notes on making this better:
1) Buy a cart, a watch dog and a donkey
2) Put everything you have on you right now that isn't armor or a shield into the cart
3) Take the cart everywhere and liberally run back to the cart when you need specifics. Hand out your gear to others when delving (the rope, the torches, the chalk).
4) When you need to leave the cart, set your watch dog on point
Encumbrance solved.
For your bad grapple check, sanctuary is a good spell. Be prepared to cast it early and often. This is probably the level one spell for you. So is shield of faith since it adds deflection AC and that adds 3 to your CMD. Invest early on in deflection bonuses.
For healing, remember that healing is often the least-important reaction to any threat, and assemble your spell list from there.
Steps on making your damage output quadruple:
1) Buy a riding dog
2) Ride the riding dog into combat
3) Dismount the riding dog and use handle animal to have it attack the nearest foe
Now you've got a pet that should be able to hang out and handle fights with you until level 3 and be ridden by you as long as you enjoy having 40ft. movement. This also ups your movement from 15 or so to 40, since the riding dog has a decent carrying capacity. You (around 30lb) plus the breastplate and the shield is just around what it needs to zip around the battlefield with you on it, throwing healing-hi-fives. Oh, and you can take this second dog anywhere with you. May want to invest in handle animal for it, the watch dog, and the donkey, though...
Consensus:
... I'd say your character is probably fine. Weaknesses are okay, and your weaknesses are pretty glaring, but you can find ways to compensate. Just stay away from water!
being small you could always put a saddle on the barbarian/fighter in the group and ride him XD
he'll have a high STR so your extra weight would be negliable to him.
then your speed is irrlevant you go where he goes.
and not entirely sure but if your riding a critter and get hit withw Reflex save effect I think if your mount saves you do too ?
although you'd need to pump your ride skill beucase I'm sure the DM will be making you take checks to stay on during combat. (a properly fitted harness would give you a bonus the same way a saddle would.
would be funny though
think yoda and luke ;)
**loads of negative [but true] stuff**
I posted just before you so I'm looking at slightly different stats now. It's not going to change your main points however so I'll take on board what you say.
With 8 str I can worry less about the carrying and even if I reduce my Wis to 16 and have 8 in dex too I'm still looking at a CMB of 7. Is 7 really going to make a difference over 4? The 1 point in AC means little and the 1 point better Ref save isn't going to have much effect either.
In the end I think my original stats were born out of these points. If I'm having low Str & Dex, then I may as well go with really low ones and gain Int, Wis and Cha. There seems little difference between CMD 10 and CMD 4, they both suck. I'm also going to sink either way with smim check 20 vs. 18? All clerics sink in water and drown don't they?
The only way to "solve" these weaknesses is to "conform" to everyone elses builds and I'm not going there!
Ring of Swimming maybe? Shame I can't go with a Ring of Floating [at least I think we're PF only, alas!]
Plenty of food for thought though, so thanks for the input.
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I have a thought.....
How about you take the Animal domain, get yourself a riding dog/pack dog to carry some stuff of yours and once you reach 4th level it could be your animal companion?
You get to run around without a bunch of gear on you, you can use it to move semi-quickly around the battle area, and you have something minor that will separate you from other clerics and could be interesting as part of the backstory of your PC.
Just a thought.
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In an upcoming LoF campaign I'm playing the Cleric. I'm going to play the type of Cleric that everyone want you to play, that'll be the walking bandaid.
I'm going to play a middle aged Gnome and we're using 20 point buy.
Here are my intended stats...
STR 5
DEX 6
CON 12
INT 17
WIS 17
CHA 17As I'm small and intend to wear a Breastplate and wooden shield, I can get away with a low strength score, plus the heavy load penalty of -6 Armour Check is the same as what I'll have from the Breatplate and Shield.
I really am going to be a walking healer/buffer.
1) Am I crazy for having these stats? or can it be done?
2) Have I overlooked something obvious that makes this an accident waiting to happen?
You don't need such a high intelligence for this character, the charisma helps but that could also be lowered. Constitution is important because I have a feeling you might die a lot, and your low DEX will do you no favors. I would put your STR up to 8 and DEX to 10. Cut your intelligence to 10 and your charisma to 12.
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You don't need such a high intelligence for this character, the charisma helps but that could also be lowered. Constitution is important because I have a feeling you might die a lot, and your low DEX will do you no favors. I would put your STR up to 8 and DEX to 10. Cut your intelligence to 10 and your charisma to 12.In an upcoming LoF campaign I'm playing the Cleric. I'm going to play the type of Cleric that everyone want you to play, that'll be the walking bandaid.
I'm going to play a middle aged Gnome and we're using 20 point buy.
Here are my intended stats...
STR 5
DEX 6
CON 12
INT 17
WIS 17
CHA 17As I'm small and intend to wear a Breastplate and wooden shield, I can get away with a low strength score, plus the heavy load penalty of -6 Armour Check is the same as what I'll have from the Breatplate and Shield.
I really am going to be a walking healer/buffer.
1) Am I crazy for having these stats? or can it be done?
2) Have I overlooked something obvious that makes this an accident waiting to happen?
So I guess you didn't read the part where he wants to have a lot of knowledge skills to cover party deficits and stick to strictly healing the vast majority of the time and not being a fighter/cleric.....
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So I guess you didn't read the part where he wants to have a lot of knowledge skills to cover party deficits and stick to strictly healing the vast majority of the time and not being a fighter/cleric.....
Actually, I did and there are flaws in his thinking. Battles won't always go as he plans and certainly not if the GM is any good. Intelligent foes look for weak points in any party. They don't think:
"Hmm, I'll attack the tank who keeps getting healed by that chirpy little begger behind him and make my life difficult". No he'll say minions, to me, drop that gnome and take out the mage as fast as you can.
With a poor strength down he goes from the grapple of a few kobolds, while the big bad charges the party's mage with the rest of his minions.
No amount of skills in this that and the other will do him a blind bit of good when he's dead. And he won't get chance to say I don't need a reflex save whilst some ranged spell hits the party from a kobold mage coming up from behind.
Most of the time the party doesn't get to choose the ground on which they fight. Say they were ambushed. The little cleric guy's gonna be toast because he got caught flat-footed in the surprise round. So unless the party he is in is made up of at least eight PCs I can see him biting the dust a lot.
You sounded a little snippy in your post so if I seem snippy back I apologize, but please do not insult my intelligence by thinking I didn't read the other thread posts. I have an opinion, and you're entitled to disagree.
I also loathe the points buy system, it's to darn predictable.
Interesting that no -one had mentioned my CON 12. It would appear that my constant death wont have anything to do with my CON and the real cause is my STR and DEX. I understand why, it's just interesting.
STR 8 & DEX 10, CMD 7 instead of 4, less skill points and channels, how is that any better? How is not identifying the monster and knowing how to defeat it going to help me survive? It would seem the whole system hates small races. Even the iconic Halfling Rogue [Str 8, Dex 18] will only have a CMD of 12!
The party is ...
Gmone Cleric
Half-Orc Barbarian
Gnome Sorcerer
Human Rogue
Human Druid [with companion & summoning]
Druid will summon support for the Barb and possibly the Rogue, Sorcerer and me will be at the back!
I DM also, so I'm fully aware that combat never quite goes to plan but I really don't want to play a "normal" build. As soon as you drop the Str and Dex a bit there doesn't seem too much more that can go wrong if it drops some more.
It's a little like the Barbarian having AC. What's the point? It's going to be crap anyway so why bother at all. Concentrate on damage output and hit points and don't worry if you get it. However some could argue that the very average AC may stop that second or third swing mid to late game and that will make a difference. Neither way is "right" it'll all depend on stuff the player doesn't know like what the AP has in store.
Same goes with my dude here. It's easy to say the CMD is a problem but really how many non-grappling foes are going to start grappling someone mid combat and lower their own AC and manoeuvrability? Channel is a Supernatural Ability so I can channel [using selective channel] even in a grapple.
The riding dog ideas are interesting I'm going to look a little deeper into that. The Animal Domain isn't really an option as the DM for the AP has told me that Sarenrae would be a good choice, so I'm going with what he has suggested.
I noted the con score, and said that it was a bit on the low side.
My goal will be to protect myself from my weaknesses
You'll have your work cut out for you then, that's all I'm saying: As I said, clerics don't get as much great stuff in that regard as wizards do. They can boost their existing defenses (better AC and so on), but cannot really add that many new ones (no invisibility, no mirror images, no flying away).
I appreciate that it's going to be hard but I don't want to play the normal cleric with the usual stats, I want to be different
There are more than two concepts. Besides the "standard build" and the "crippling weakness galore build", there are many ways to play an unusual character without heaping on weaknesses with a shovel.
If you're actually going for the weak, feeble cripple, by all means play the character with all his weaknesses. I hear all the time that true roleplaying can only come from such character concepts (which is total baloney, of course). There are some very memorable characters from fiction who have such a weakness.
But always remember this: Those novel and film heroes survive despite their weaknesses because they have Plot Armour. They survive because the author wrote the story that way.
Roleplaying games work differently: Here, weaknesses can totally kill you, because something that is moderately dangerous to your less pathetic (;-P) comrades can be deadly to you. So you are either in constant danger (and remember: He who betakes himself into danger will parish in it.) or the rest of the party is going to die of boredom - or the GM will constantly spare you, which amounts to you not really playing the same game as the rest.
I forget what creature did it by about level 4-5 we got hit with a bunch of evil critters that did around 1d4 STR damage on a hit with failed save.
if you got to 0STR your char died an turned into one of the creatures.
even basic curses can potentially cripple you at 5 STR or 6 DEX.
its funny but such stats can restrict the encounters a DM can throw at you without risking the above issues.
min maxing is all well n good but with 5 charcters you could easily share the knowelge skills.
17 int for a cleric ... for me cost outweighs the benefits by far.
14-15 would be more appropriate
heh and I still say you should play the game rising the back of the barbarian, always within healing range of the tank ;) and you travel at his speed
Your listed stats are fine. You may want to invest in Toughness and/or Lightning Reflexes, but they aren't critical. I've played Old characters before (ie, -6 to all physical stats, including Con) and survived the campaign. You'll definitely want to invest in the greater status spell from Spell Compendium if it's allowed; it lets you heal from the back.
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Druid will summon support for the Barb and possibly the Rogue, Sorcerer and me will be at the back!
Sometimes being at the back is the worst place to be. I stick a medium tank character or a rogue with good reflexes and perception skills. There's nothing worse than some canny critter shadowing the party in the hope of picking off the weaklings at the back, and if you're traversing a narrow corridor then your friends in the party are gonna find it a tad difficult to maneuver themselves into position to protect you in time - and that's only if they're quickly aware that you've been attacked and are not themselves caught flat-footed. Also, players tend to get peeved if they have to spend most of their time protecting one character when they are hoping to challenge foes and play their own characters for 'death and/or glory'. Fighters, Barbarians and Paladins are there to fight; for challenge, simple battle lust, or holy zeal. This is why PCs should have better stats than the average NPC, they are "the" heroes, and also the story enablers for the GM, they are those rare people that even at 1st level are exceptional in the game world and aspire to great things. A cleric's role is to be tough enough to survive a while if caught in the rare situation where he is surrounded by the bad guys. The party tanks know the cleric is essential for healing, raising them from death, protections etc., and so they should make sure that they help out the said cleric asap. But if the cleric goes down in the first round, there's little they could do.
I understand you want to play a less martial cleric character and there's nothing wrong with that from a role-playing perspective, but giving him weak peasant ability scores for STR and DEX is rather dangerous. Druids are fine but they do not have access to the same powerful health restoration spells as clerics. Giving him average scores on those attributes is fine. But he doesn't need the excessively high CHA or INT. Focus on WIS, STR and CON more. I know you want him to be a sage/diplomat character, but these people are generally NPCs that the PCs might consult from time to time outside of an adventure.
Another possibility is to ask your GM to create a prestige class that you can take on later (i.e like the Loremaster prestige class) that fits with what you want to role play.
I DM also, so I'm fully aware that combat never quite goes to plan but I really don't want to play a "normal" build. As soon as you drop the Str and Dex a bit there doesn't seem too much more that can go wrong if it drops some more.
But as other posters have rightly pointed out poisons, curses, diseases are going to render you useless a lot quicker than characters with higher stats. But this is only advice, and you specifically asked us for advice in your original post. You are free to ignore the suggestions, but experienced gamers know the pitfalls of your proposed character and quite rightly have given you some sterling advice.
I certainly don't want to dis your ideas out of spite, I was simply giving my opinion. All PCs need to be as useful to the party as they can be and a cleric is often essential for party survival. It was not a popular class in early AD&D because of the restrictions to only being allowed to use blunt maces etc (because they supposedly don't draw blood - a medieval idea for martial clerics). Maces, flails etc., draw blood quite readily and I was glad that v3.0/3.5 threw out that restriction.
Do as you wish, maybe it will work in your campaign, but I have a feeling that your GM may have to coddle you a little to keep you safe.
The party is ...Gmone Cleric
Half-Orc Barbarian
Gnome Sorcerer
Human Rogue
Human Druid [with companion & summoning]
In my experience, the smaller the group, the more self-sufficient the characters should be. Bigger groups can have more specialized characters, as they can cover each other's weaknesses. With 4-5 people, building in weaknesses above and beyond the norm isn't a recipe for success. A melee cleric would fill a lot of the void in this group, giving it an actual front line. Your front line is basically a Barbarian and a Druid (...eh, maybe not, as the druid is summoning).
Nobody in the above group has AC to speak of, so I see fights going a lot like this: You either wipe the enemy in a hurry, or get wiped just as fast. You CANNOT keep up on the healing, you have to rely on damage output alone to win the fights. You healing during the fight isn't going to help at all; if you can't output damage you might as well not be there. In a different party composition you'd work better - high AC parties allow healbots to keep them up full-time.
I can really see a surprise round messing this group all to hell and back. You need to own the surprise round - I hope everyone in your group has Stealth.
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I find it amusing, the amount of people who posted in this thread with replies along the lines of;
"NO You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to Min/Max so your cleric is AWESOME. LOL."
Yeah.
My opinion: Go for it! I always love when my players create characters that are practically opposite than the norm, gives them more personality then a generic Warrior Cleric or Ranged Combat Ranger (I had a player make a ranger scout once, Int was higher than dex to max his scouting skills. He spent most of his gaming time scouting ahead, and making attack plans).
Needless to say, unusual characters can be quite useful.
I have to say though, you better post the results on here :D
I find it amusing, the amount of people who posted in this thread with replies along the lines of;
"NO You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to Min/Max so your cleric is AWESOME. LOL."
Please don't start this bulldrek. No one has said this. Actually, the overwhelming complaint is that the character is too min-maxed. It's pretty much the definition of min-maxed.
Please don't start this bulldrek. No one has said this. Actually, the overwhelming complaint is that the character is too min-maxed. It's pretty much the definition of min-maxed.I find it amusing, the amount of people who posted in this thread with replies along the lines of;
"NO You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to Min/Max so your cleric is AWESOME. LOL."
Especially with the thread title being "Anything Wrong With...".
Please don't start this bulldrek.I find it amusing, the amount of people who posted in this thread with replies along the lines of;
"NO You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to Min/Max so your cleric is AWESOME. LOL."
Seconded.
As I said before: You don't have to totally cripple a character to have a good or memorable character. In fact, you don't even have to go all bizarro dimension on your character in order to have an interesting character (I've actually seen characters who were completely shallow beyond their "I'm so unusual" angle).
So the thing is: Playing an interesting character, playing a character without crippling weaknesses, and playing a character that doesn't look like most of his class are three completely separate things.
And it's imporant to note that we're not telling him that he must min-max to win or anything. We just tell him that his weaknesses will be so big the enemies cannot help but exploit them continuously (unless the GM goes out of his way to protect that character, which is about the worst thing a GM can do).
The reason there are so little "unusual" characters out there (going with the definition of "unusual" a lot of people seem to be stuck with) is that they all die long before they get to level 1.
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Going by the OP's stated desire I think these stats are a better package Racial mods included.
10
12
14
12
16
14Decent starting wisdom for spells, charisma for turning and even a point for some extra skills. And some health for survivability. This way he can be a walking bandaid without being a walking wound.
I can't see any thing wrong with the stats by LazarX above. Possibly the best stat suggestion yet IMHO.
I can: It gives 3 skill points (4 if he chooses to use his favored class bonus on skills instead of hit points) to a character whose player says he wants to fill in a lot of skills that the party is missing, and has stats that have no use whatsoever to the character or the character concept (which is more important) unreasonably high.
The original stats are fine. I've played characters in campaigns with worse (similar Str and Dex and a negative Con bonus as well). You have to be much, much more careful than you would with a more well-rounded Cleric, but it's not something that's going to make the character unplayable. There's no need to have Strength at 10 and Dex at 12 for a character who will never be on the front line of combat by choice.
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I can: It gives 3 skill points (4 if he chooses to use his favored class bonus on skills instead of hit points) to a character whose player says he wants to fill in a lot of skills that the party is missing, and has stats that have no use whatsoever to the character or the character concept (which is more important) unreasonably high.
The original stats are fine. I've played characters in campaigns with worse (similar Str and Dex and a negative Con bonus as well). You have to be much, much more careful than you would with a more well-rounded Cleric, but it's not something that's going to make the character unplayable. There's no need to have Strength at 10 and Dex at 12 for a character who will never be on the front line of combat by choice.
Well, I disagree. The last thing the little guy needs is poor REF, and average FORT saves. He's not going to have many hps to begin with. If he wants to max out his skills, he can start choosing more skills as his levels progress and place level ability gains on the stats that he wants more skills in. If he doesn't do this then he won't need to worry about skills at all, unless he can make use of them in the upper planes as a petitioner.
He's not going to need so many skills in Knowledge (arcana, divine) at first level anyway. It's overkill. If he doesn't at least have average scores in his STR and DEX to begin with (i.e. so that he won't incur penalties) he'd better start praying that all the saves he makes are based solely on WILL, which, I have to say, is being overly optimistic. Add to that the guy has deliberately made himself old and takes losses through that, he is also being slowed by his equipment encumbrance.
He's effectively made himself a sitting duck and about as much use as a chocolate teapot to his comrades.
There are only three other characters and as other posters have already observed, none of them are going to have great ACs.
His character is not "unplayable" as you point out, it's just that he probably won't be playing him for very long ;)
EDIT: For typos
He's got a Con of 12 and is going to be playing a Cleric. He'll have a better Fort save than the party Sorcerer or Rogue. Fort saves aren't based off Strength, so I have no clue why you're claiming that his Fort save will suck.
Reflex saves are a luxury. They're nice to have, but they're by far the least dangerous save to be regularly failing. Failing a Reflex save for a character without Evasion really doesn't do much but cause some extra damage. It's also possible to entirely fix his negative modifier to that save by taking Lightning Reflexes, which you'll note I mentioned.
He has two real weaknesses: Strength or Dex drains will suck a little more than usual (although really the difference between 6 and 10 isn't that much -- if you're in melee with a Shadow for long enough for it to get in two attacks, you're going to be screwed with either number), and his Reflex save is going to be a little poorer than usual (but Reflex is already typically very weak on Clerics anyway).
EDIT: And there are FOUR other characters in the party, for the record. The party is cleric (the OP's character), barbarian, rogue, sorcerer, druid. The druid is a summoner on top of that, so in actuality there'll be a barbarian, a rogue, an animal companion, and a summoned monster in melee in most fights. There's very little reason for the cleric to have to be in melee in most cases.
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He's got a Con of 12 and is going to be playing a Cleric. He'll have a better Fort save than the party Sorcerer or Rogue. Fort saves aren't based off Strength, so I have no clue why you're claiming that his Fort save will suck.
You are correct and I have edited this point. Momentary lapse,
Reflex saves are a luxury. They're nice to have, but they're by far the least dangerous save to be regularly failing. Failing a Reflex save for a character without Evasion really doesn't do much but cause some extra damage. It's also possible to entirely fix his negative modifier to that save by taking Lightning Reflexes, which you'll note I mentioned.
Reflex saves are not a luxury, when you are caught flat footed. Now he hasn't mentioned he's taking lightning reflexes, but his movement is severely limited by being a gnome and by encumbrance. Basically he will not be able to hold his own, if things go pear shaped, long enough to be bailed out by the barbarian. I've GM'd a few players who've taken it into their heads to play severely weakened characters for the sake of role playing, and they realize pretty quickly that events, bad die rolls and clever opponents end up taking them out too often. So usually my players will minimize stats they really don't feel they need to no less than 8 and max out the stats they do need. I had one cleric who actually had a very good Dexterity and contrary to opinion about clerics became very effective. If you're wanting to be a healer in the heat of a battle then a good DEX is worth considering provided you had good enough initial stat die rolls (did I say I abhor point buying) to satisfy the important stats.
He has two real weaknesses: Strength or Dex drains will suck a little more than usual (although really the difference between 6 and 10 isn't that much -- if you're in melee with a Shadow for long enough for it to get in two attacks, you're going to be screwed with either number), and his Reflex save is going to be a little poorer than usual (but Reflex is already typically very weak on Clerics anyway).
And here is the onion. These are significant weaknesses and there is quite a big difference between 6 and 10 when you're getting your abilities damaged or drained.
I could accept his choices as a GM if he was part of a larger party say 7-8 PCs, but there are only four and only one of these is a combat oriented character. A cleric whether he likes it or not is a secondary combat character because if nothing else he needs to stick back to defend the rogue and sorcerer. His avid need to be an intellectual skilled in many trades right at 1st level would be laudable if he wanted to be a sage or soothsayer or some such. But for a PC it would weaken the party as a whole.
But it's up to him and his GM and fellow players whether his stats are good enough or not for their purposes. He asked a question, we answered, he wouldn't last in my campaign but so be it.
Reflex saves are not a luxury, when you are caught flat footed.
Flat footedness has nothing to do with Reflex saves. Nor does it have anything to do with "holding his own". In fact, the only character who will naturally have a high Reflex save in the party he's listed will be the Rogue! Barbarians, Druids, and Sorcerers all have poor Reflex save progression and none of them really raise Dex beyond 12-14 in most any case.
And here is the onion. These are significant weaknesses and there is quite a big difference between 6 and 10 when you're getting your abilities damaged or drained.
Not really. A 6 is 2 drains to 0 in most cases (most ability damage/drains are 1d6, the average of which is 3.5), while a 10 is 3 drains. It's entirely possible for even a high-Strength character to be drained to helplessness or even death in a single round by monsters like Shadows; I've seen it happen. It's easier for someone with very low Strength, but it's not like they're incredibly common (and Shadows are pretty much the only creature that can actually kill with a Strength drain).
I could accept his choices as a GM if he was part of a larger party say 7-8 PCs, but there are only four and only one of these is a combat oriented character.
Wrong once again. It's a party of 5, with two combat focused characters (barbarian and rogue) and a summoner with an animal companion (druid). There's plenty of front line.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Stuart,
You seem to have q good handle on what your character's weak points are, I do think you're underestimating how often they'll arise though.
My only question about your state spear is the 17 intelligence. Why not settle for a 16 and put the points elsewhere?
His "concept" was "Walking Bandaid" period. That tells me he's setting this character to be nothing more than a healbot. If he wants skills and the ability to be casting healing spells, bard would have been a better choice. A Combat Healer needs to have survivability if he's going to be walking around healing people in the middle of a combat. There's nothing about his concept that requires him to be a skill monkey and if he uses his favored class for skills he's still got 4 pts per level which is more than sufficient to get the job done.
The Combat healer is more than someone who just walks up and touches, He may have to drag someone out as well, which is going to be rather problematic given that the character is SMALL as well.
Nowhere did he say he wanted to be a "combat healer" in the sense you're describing. Actually, he's specifically said that he doesn't want that:
We have a Sorcerer instead of a Wizard so that means no Knowledge junkies in the party. I want to max out Diplomacy, Kn Arcana, Kn Religion, Kn Planes, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and Heal.
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AC: I'm not a melee cleric so AC is irrelevant really.
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I don't want strength and dex! My goal will be to protect myself from my weaknesses, I appreciate that it's going to be hard but I don't want to play the normal cleric with the usual stats, I want to be different and risk the danger of being grappled by the frog familiar!
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I DM also, so I'm fully aware that combat never quite goes to plan but I really don't want to play a "normal" build.
What I want to play is a cleric...
minus
3/4 bab, d8, medium armour.
plus
d6, more spells and knowledges.
Simular to the 3.5 Cloistered Cleric.
A few things have changed because of the feedback I have received [thank you all]. A few don't appear to have grasped my general concept and have suggested stats that are not suitable for my character [12 INT for example].
My stats are now looing like this...
Str 6 [steve austin, not], Dex 8 [jackie chan, not], Con 11 [miss marple], Int 16 [orac], Wis 17 [professor yaffle] & Cha 16 [errol flynn].
Comments on Min/Maxing: I really didn't start this character off with the thought that I was min/maxing but I guess the figures don't lie. All that I can say is that I'm not doing it to "break" the game, in fact I'm actually trying to play a type of cleric that most players wouldn't want to [pretty selfless], but most would like to have in the party [assuming my weaknesses don't become a constant problem for the party as a whole]
My main healing will come from Channel. I'll be taking Selective Channel at 1st level and then either Extra Channel or Lightning Reflexes.
I'm going to propose that the party split the loot 6 ways so as to have a party healing fund. From this fund I'm going to suggest half the cost of a Phylactery of Positive Channelling comes to accelerate getting one [I may need some fair winds and good seas to achieve that!], I therefore wont be using Headbands of Wis/Cha.
I'm taking an AP trait that grants +1 skill point and +1 hit point "over and above" what you would normally receive. So I'll be taking 2 skill point [giving me the 7 I need, although I may now need Handle Animal too, see below] and +1 hit point. I'll put me free stat at level 4 into Con to help me survive the failed reflex save required from, say, a Fireball etc.
My God has changed to Gozreh, taking the Air Domain [resist electricity 10 at level 6] and Animal Domain [Animal companion at level 4 to ride]
Role-playing personality is still to be nailed. I'm wavering between nursie [blackadder] and Mrs Forbes-Hamilton [To the Manor Born], which are simply universes apart!
What I want to play is a cleric...
minus
3/4 bab, d8, medium armour.plus
d6, more spells and knowledges.Simular to the 3.5 Cloistered Cleric.
You might want to take a look at the Priest class variant I posted on these boards HERE. It was developed for exactly that reason.
A friend (who happens to be an RPG Superstar finalist) and I are also working on a Priest base class that deviates more from the Cleric than my class variant did, incorporating rituals and such into the class.