is it just me or does it seem like poison and even venom is too weak, when i think of someone being bitten by a snake or being poisoned i imagine some one dieing almost every time.
i know there is supposed to be a power balance but honestly if some one poisons you you should die, is should be almost imposable to survive something like this.
i am not saying it should be an auto kill but still the saves seem too low and the fact that it can take several failed rolls in order for you to die from it seems too unrealistic.
does anyone else feel this way to or am i alone on this.
Nope, I feel the current rules are fine.
While I completely understand where you are coming from, I have alwasy justified it as the people that get bitten and die are commoners, while heroic classes are either tougher than poison (see Scorpion King) or can cast remove poison on themselves.
is it just me or does it seem like poison and even venom is too weak, when i think of someone being bitten by a snake or being poisoned i imagine some one dieing almost every time.
I had a common housecat survive five poisonous snake bites (yes, in real life). Got sick as hell, but survived.
Conversely, a dog we had that was bitten by the same type of snake died pretty quickly, despite having around a 5-to-1 mass ratio over the cat.
i did not see that rule.
my real point isn't that everyone should die every time they get bitten or poisoned but that is should feel more lethal even in high levels, i don't feel being a high level character should make you hardyer vs poisons or venom, they should still scare the hell out of your character no matter what level they are.
i am aware that people do survive being bitten and poisoned but that is the chance of rolling a 20.
|
Poisons are actually quite powerful, and there are still poisons that can kill you fairly easily (Black Lotus Extract can do 6d6 Con damage to you, and it is a DC 20 that requires 2 consecutive saves to cure, which would kill almost any commoner that was exposed to it). Most poisons, however, are not the insta-kill that television makes them out to be. Most are debilitating at best, while others are just inconvenient.
The main point here, I think, is that you imagine normal people, commoners if you would, which in the world of Pathfinder most will have +0 to +1 (if they are especially hardy) fortitude saves. They will fail almost every time no matter what poison they are exposed to... As for "deadly venom", that is largely overstated, as I said before. Poisons generally serve to make you easier to kill, not to kill you outright. Although some can kill you outright as Black Lotus can demonstrate.
To sum it up- Poisons are dirty, underhanded tricks that can give you an edge, but they are by no means an "I Win!" button. There are spells for that.
i am aware that people do survive being bitten and poisoned but that is the chance of rolling a 20.
It wholly depends on what you get bitten by. And pathfinder doesn't really have any defined animals with poisons that I know of. If the giant snake is a european adder, it probably won't kill you. I've been bitten by those twice, and sure, you get ill, but unless you're especially weak you won't die. The same goes for spiders - a friend got bitten by a quite dangerous spider in Egypt and was back on his feet in two days.
It might simply be that in Golarion, really really poisonous animals are rare.And I think it's okay that high-level characters are good at resisting poisons. Over level 5, we're talking over what can be achieved IRL (apart from of course magic and those things). A level 13 character can leap several meters up into the air, survive without water for two weeks, punch through walls and so on. Making him able to survive the occacional poison sting isn't far-fetched. Poisons are still a threat to players though, especially from several weak monsters - far more so than the damage they do. Since the DC goes up per bite, getting swarmed by 30 tiny monstrous spiders can do you real harm, even at higher levels (unless you have poison resistance as some special ability).
I think poisons should be usable as a viable weapon - insinuative poisons that is. And, given that (for example) Wyvern poison only does 1d4 Con (at a cost of 3,000 gp), it's surprisingly little damage for a surprisingly high gold piece cost. That means that, for example, if a character who specialized in poisons dumped -all- his gold into poison doses, at 6th level, he could make 5 attacks over the entire level.is it just me or does it seem like poison and even venom is too weak, when i think of someone being bitten by a snake or being poisoned i imagine some one dieing almost every time.
i know there is supposed to be a power balance but honestly if some one poisons you you should die, is should be almost imposable to survive something like this.
i am not saying it should be an auto kill but still the saves seem too low and the fact that it can take several failed rolls in order for you to die from it seems too unrealistic.
does anyone else feel this way to or am i alone on this.
Someone who's focused at poisons should really make their own. That means the cost is just 1/3 the normal cost. Also, remember that it requires two saves to get cured. The average fort save for someone with bad fort at level 6, is +5. The save is DC 17. I did some math in oo calc, so I can't really copy it here, but if I'm correct you have a 61% chance of doing 2d4 con damage - an average of 5/2*9=22,5 hit point for a CR6 humanoid/animal/aberation.
And this is from an expensive poison. One I'd use is Purple Worm poison - DC24 for 1d3 strength damage, 6 rounds, 2 saves to cure. And only 233 gp if you make it. I can't do the math exactly on average damage, but you have a 91% chance of giving -2 to everything strength-related. 99% for -1. Two doses of these against the BBEG, in the same round, would probably be death for him - With a DC of 26, even a CR8 with Fort as a good save, that's still only a 30% chance to succeed on a save, only a 9% chance to be cured every turn.EDIT: Don't forget that someone who wants to use poisons as a main method of killing people, should try to use ingested poisons too - these are generally cheaper for the effect.
EDIT2: I really think they should be cheaper if you have access to the raw materials though, and know how to extract them. It could also make a great side-quest hook - the poisonmaker has found out a rare spider lives in a cave not so far away, so the whole party sets of to hunt it down, armed with barrels of antibiotics. If they get it, the poisonmaker can cheaply craft a powerful poison.
It would be quite simple to house rule: If you have the corpse of X, you can make poison X for 1/10th the original cost.
All this is why i don't like poisons which only lowers stats.
Although this kind of effect can be interesting, poison is also made to kill, therefore i prefer to use damaging ones, causing HP loss. Like in the old times.
I'd use is Purple Worm poison - DC24 for 1d3 strength damage, 6 rounds, 2 saves to cure. And only 233 gp if you make it. I can't do the math exactly on average damage, but you have a 91% chance of giving -2 to everything strength-related. 99% for -1. Two doses of these against the BBEG, in the same round, would probably be death for him - With a DC of 26, even a CR8 with Fort as a good save, that's still only a 30% chance to succeed on a save, only a 9% chance to be cured...223gp to do -4 on strength.
A scroll of ray of enfeeblement costs 25gp to do -4.5 strength - about 1/10th the cost for a bigger effect.
Spells, or at least ray of enfeeblement are better for PC's, and poison is better for NPC's. As a DM I know my NPC's will die but the affect of the poison might stay with them until the next fight unless they use resources to cure it. If they fail the ray of enfeeblement it goes away automatically in a few rounds anyway.
All this is why i don't like poisons which only lowers stats.
Although this kind of effect can be interesting, poison is also made to kill, therefore i prefer to use damaging ones, causing HP loss. Like in the old times.
You realise hit point loss is a lot less dangerous than con damage, right?
223gp to do -4 on strength.A scroll of ray of enfeeblement costs 25gp to do -4.5 strength - about 1/10th the cost for a bigger effect.
A scroll of RoE takes a standard action to use for only that effect, and has a save DC for no effect of 11 for -3.5 damage (it's 1d6 +1 per two levels, thus 1d6 for level one). This has a DC of 24, an average damage I guess is at about 8 strength damage (probably higher) for a level-appropriate foe, and works at the same time as a normal attack. So with two weapons, you can get two of those in at the same round, as part of a 3 attack session (with an iterative at level 6) or a two attack session with +3d6 SA damage each.
Plus, spell resistance doesn't apply, it can't be countered, it works in an antimagic field. A drawback though, is that some some creatures are immune to poison but not to negative energy.
EDIT: The ray has a 25% chance of dealing an average of 3.5 strength damage, else it deals no damage (supposing no SR). The poison has a 53% chance of dealing an average of 12 strength damage. It has an 81% chance to deal 4 strength damage.
Chance for ray of enfeeblement is 25% (saves on a 6+). Average damage is (1+6)/2=3.5 damage.
Chance for poison to deal full damage is:
0.9^6=0.53
Average damage on fail all saves is (6+18)/2=12.
Chance to 2d3 damage is 0.9*0.9=0.81, average damage (2+6)/2=4.
Slight derailment- If the save of a poison is con based and you buff the creatures con, will the poison save dice increase? If a druid wildshapes into a venomous creature, could he harvest his own poison and would it last past his return to normal form?
My GM is still on 3.5, but I'm interested in hearing the answer for both 3.5 and Pathfinder.
You're now talking about using two of these in the same round. That's a gold peace equivalent of roughly a third level spell (Bestow Curse, Ray of Exhaustion, Blindness/Deafness, etc.). It's still more cost effective to invest in scrolls.
No, I said you COULD use two in a round, which you can't with RoE. You don't have to use two for it to be more effective, but if you're going up against a BBEG it might be worth it. See my math breakdown above.
Slight derailment- If the save of a poison is con based and you buff the creatures con, will the poison save dice increase? If a druid wildshapes into a venomous creature, could he harvest his own poison and would it last past his return to normal form?
My GM is still on 3.5, but I'm interested in hearing the answer for both 3.5 and Pathfinder.
The DC of the save will increase, but not the damage dice.
There's no rules on harvesting poisons AFAIK, so RAW you can't harvest poisons at all. However, I'd say you have to kill the creature to harvest from it.
Stringburka, you've reported the average damage for RoE wrong. It's 1d6 + 1/level. That means it's 4.5, not 3.5
Not according to the PRD (don't have the book here)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/ray-of-enfeeblement"The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). "
Also, it has a duration of 1 round/level - so for 25 gp, you'd get one that lasts a single round.
Not that it matters much, because PW poison is just so much better anyway. Several times more powerful, and can be used up to level 9 or so without people regulary saving. Of course, it requires a bit of hit-and-run tactics. You won't see the poison take someone down in a round, it takes some time.
--------
I'd like to see more slow poisons, especially for animals. I'd much rather see the spider poisons for example, converted to 1/minute or even 1/hour and doubled duration (to 12 minutes/hours) with a small DC boost.
EDIT: In all fairness, the chance of successfully using the poison against someone with good fort save is drastically lower - it's 12% chance for 6d3 str damage, and 49% chance for 2d3 str damage. On the other hand, the chance for RoE is only 10% chance of 1d6 str damage.
You realise hit point loss is a lot less dangerous than con damage, right?
Well... Actually, no, it's not.
Losing 1d3 Con is much less dangerous than losing 30HP.Ability damage can be good for some poisons, but i prefer in general direct HP damage.
Besides, it's easier to keep track.
Now I'm thinking about working on a small collection of poisons, items and creatures related to poisons, and some rules for extracting them. Might become a poison pdf.
|
Now I'm thinking about working on a small collection of poisons, items and creatures related to poisons, and some rules for extracting them. Might become a poison pdf.
If you want poison rules that really scare the Hell out of your PCs, then use the alternate poison rules from "Pale Designs: A Poisoner's Handbook".
Using the Purple Worm poison example, the damage from that poison is 30 hit points the first round, 29 the second, 28 the third, etc all the way down to zero.
EDIT: You also take the normal Purple Worm damage on top of this
Its a bit extreme in some of the numbers, but it will scare the Hell out your PCs.
The Conan D20 RPG has pretty lethal poisons. IIRC they have multiple saves over many rounds (much like pathfinder, poisons might last 6 rounds for example) and each has a die size listed for it (such as 1d4). the first time you fail the save you lose the indicated die from an ability score, the next failed save results in losing the next die size up and so on.
one way to make pathfinder poisons more lethal would be to simply ignore the Cure: line and force them to make all of the saves.
Anyway, to each game its style.
There are many sources for many poisons types, ability damage, HP damage and many other effects.
That gives variety and options.
Now I'm thinking about working on a small collection of poisons, items and creatures related to poisons, and some rules for extracting them. Might become a poison pdf.If you want poison rules that really scare the Hell out of your PCs, then use the alternate poison rules from "Pale Designs: A Poisoner's Handbook".
Using the Purple Worm poison example, the damage from that poison is 30 hit points the first round, 29 the second, 28 the third, etc all the way down to zero.
EDIT: You also take the normal Purple Worm damage on top of thisIts a bit extreme in some of the numbers, but it will scare the Hell out your PCs.
I don't necessarily want the good poisons to get better - I think they're quite appropriate for the price. What I want is more decent poisons, as some are very bad and some are very good. And I like ability damage poisons, rather than hit point poisons, because it's more concrete, and it doesn't make it THAT much less dangerous over the levels. I like the feeling that the more the poison wears at you, the worse your ability to fight is. I think HP damage might be fine in some poison cases, but they should be the exception rather than the norm.
A problem is that you can't focus in poison. It takes no effort to focus in them, and because of this, they have to be pretty weak. As long as the investment is low, the exchange also have to be or everyone would use them.
Having a feat chain focused on improving poison might be a good idea, but it's hard to fathom how that would work in game (and I like when there's a rational reason for it).
One thing that could be implemented is feats that improve the poisons that one would make - but that means they can be passed on, and thus, either the characters should be able to find a seller to buy it from, or it would be so ridiculosly pricy that the poisonmaking character should be able to sell it for massive cash.
I could think of a few feats to make it more worthwile, but not that many. What about this?
Anatomical Expertise
Prerequisite: Healing 4 ranks
Benefit: You know how to strike with poisoned weapons as to maximize the poisons spread, making it harder to resist. Whenever you attack in a situation where Sneak Attack is applicable (whether you have Sneak Attack or not), and the target is exposed to your poison, the DC to resist it increases by 2.
|
|
point 1
don't forget the risk of poisoning yourself when you use these. Rules on p 558.
point 2
I dislike how I put poison X on my weapon and do not know who I will face when I next draw that weapon. I might pull it against someone with a high fort save and feel like I waste the poison. One possible solution is to carry multiple weapons(don't forget encumbrence, especially if walking at full speed) with the appropriate poison for the fight at hand. That might even be a non poisoned weapon if you feel it would be a waste.
Paging Kirth Gerson...poison criticism requested on Line 1...
(You're not the only one to think that poisons are too weak.)
Damn, has anyone looked at Dragon Bile? In the PRD at least (don't have the book here) it's just 100gp more (33 if you make it) than PW poison, it's save is DC26, and it has no cure (you have to make all 6 saves)!
That's good even at higher levels.
point 1
don't forget the risk of poisoning yourself when you use these. Rules on p 558.
Yes, that is a very real risk. A single level of assassin will solve that though, and I allow poison use as a rogue talent. If I make the poison booklet, I'll be sure to include poison use as a feat.
You realise hit point loss is a lot less dangerous than con damage, right?Well... Actually, no, it's not.
Losing 1d3 Con is much less dangerous than losing 30HP.Ability damage can be good for some poisons, but i prefer in general direct HP damage.
Besides, it's easier to keep track.
I'd have to beg to differ on this account. Not only are you taking damage but your MAXIMUM hp is going down. As well... multiple doses of constitution damage make those Fortitude saves harder and harder allowing the poison to be all the more effective. This makes it much easier in the long run for a simple flick to the face to eventually finish you off if the loss of constitution does not finish you first.
Constitution damage is just flat out debilitating.
You realise hit point loss is a lot less dangerous than con damage, right?Well... Actually, no, it's not.
Losing 1d3 Con is much less dangerous than losing 30HP.Ability damage can be good for some poisons, but i prefer in general direct HP damage.
Besides, it's easier to keep track.
I don't know about you, but any group I have ever played in had lots of HP healing but relatively little in the way of stat healing. By the time you are taking 30 damage from poison, you have over 100 HP and a cleric buddy who can help you out, or are flat out dieing. Con damage is scalable with level, so the GM can use it against you at any level annd you have roughly equal chance of living, provided the save DC is in line.
Now when talking about PCs using poisons, HP damage is great. But in my experience, the GM will use any tools that the PCs use against them.
If you want to make poison more lethal, rather than make the DC higher, you could expose a character to more doses.
For example: If one oz of poison X is a DC15 save for 1d4 con, then make 5 oz of poison X five different DC15 saves for 1d4 con each.
I feel this is more realistic than increasing the save DC or the damage. My reasoning is that IRL, people can survive for years without any symptoms, having ingesting minor amounts of certain poisons (arsenic, lead, etc.), but larger amounts may be deadly. The issue is in the number of "doses", not the lethality of each individual dose. For example, the FDA allows for 10 micrograms of arsenic per liter of drinking water, but arsenic is a deadly poison in larger amounts. Not to freak anyone out, but I think there are something like 300 different contaminants allowed in drinking water, ranging from bacteria to poisonous metals.
Also,
As to the issue of harvesting poison, I don't feel you should have to kill a creature to harvest the poison. Rattlesnakes are frequently milked for their venom, and the process does not harm the rattlesnake.
However, for play balance, if a druid changes into a rattlesnake, the venom should only remain venom as long as the druid remains a rattlesnake. Once the druid changes back to his/her natural form, your character is only carrying around a vial of the druids spit. In my opinion, allowing a character to keep the venom is a mistake.
|
If you think the existing poisons are too weak, design your own:
Death's Chill
Type: Contact
DC: 32
Initial: Death; save for 2d6 con damage
Secondary: 2d6 con damage
This delivers a guarenteed 2d6 con damage. Even if the initial shock doesn't kill you, it's likely that you will die from the high con damage that it inflicts.
Personally, I love the way poisons are handled in Pathfinder. My only real problems with them are the cost and the crafting time. The Weeks/months it takes to make 1 dose because they are cost ballanced against magical gear but use mundane crafting is rediculous. Coupled with the fact that many poisons can be gotten for free from common plants, it doesn't sit well with me.
Damn, has anyone looked at Dragon Bile? In the PRD at least (don't have the book here) it's just 100gp more (33 if you make it) than PW poison, it's save is DC26, and it has no cure (you have to make all 6 saves)!
That's good even at higher levels.
For 1,500 gp, you get something that will probably paralyze (not kill) the average commoner after 5 rounds. That has limited usefulness, I think.
As far as I'm concerned, there's basically no reason for PCs to use anything but the most expensive poisons*, and by the time you can afford to spend 1,000+ on a single dose of poison the game is starting to fall apart for non-magical PCs anyways.
* With the possible exception of drow poison, which is pretty cheap for a save-or-die effect (even if the DC is very low).
For 1,500 gp, you get something that will probably paralyze (not kill) the average commoner after 5 rounds. That has limited usefulness, I think.
As far as I'm concerned, there's basically no reason for PCs to use anything but the most expensive poisons*, and by the time you can afford to spend 1,000+ on a single dose of poison the game is starting to fall apart for non-magical PCs anyways.
* With the possible exception of drow poison, which is pretty cheap for a save-or-die effect (even if the DC is very low).
Oh, read the cost as 800 gp. Don't know where I got that from.
Anyway, what it does to a commoner isn't important. For the price of 500 if you make it yourself (and if you're going to use it on a regular basis, you really should), you can give a frost giant an average of around -7.2 to strength (60% chance to be afflicted per turn, average 3.6 hits for 7.2 average strength damage). And this takes a long time to heal, so even if the party has to retreat, it may very well be in effect when they return.
If you want to make poisons more deadly in your games, you can always have it so that you take half the effect of the poison even if you save. (Unless the subject is immune to poison of course) That's what I do. It makes poisons more realistic but since poison is used in the hands of NPCs more often than PCs on average, this rule can be harsh on the PCs. If your PCs are fine with this, it can be a viable option. Just realize that if the rule works for poison-using player characters, it works just as well for the baddies. Also, this only works for poisons with non status effects like 1d6 Con or 2d6 Dex... though I suppose a poison that puts you to sleep on a failure could give you some sort of penalties on a save.
For 1,500 gp, you get something that will probably paralyze (not kill) the average commoner after 5 rounds. That has limited usefulness, I think.
As far as I'm concerned, there's basically no reason for PCs to use anything but the most expensive poisons*, and by the time you can afford to spend 1,000+ on a single dose of poison the game is starting to fall apart for non-magical PCs anyways.
* With the possible exception of drow poison, which is pretty cheap for a save-or-die effect (even if the DC is very low).
Oh, read the cost as 800 gp. Don't know where I got that from.
Anyway, what it does to a commoner isn't important. For the price of 500 if you make it yourself (and if you're going to use it on a regular basis, you really should), you can give a frost giant an average of around -7.2 to strength (60% chance to be afflicted per turn, average 3.6 hits for 7.2 average strength damage). And this takes a long time to heal, so even if the party has to retreat, it may very well be in effect when they return.
You do realize it takes you 2 1/2 months to make 1 dose of Dragon Bile, right?
Stringburka mis-quoted me. HOGARTH actually said the following:
For 1,500 gp, you get something that will probably paralyze (not kill) the average commoner after 5 rounds. That has limited usefulness, I think.
As far as I'm concerned, there's basically no reason for PCs to use anything but the most expensive poisons*, and by the time you can afford to spend 1,000+ on a single dose of poison the game is starting to fall apart for non-magical PCs anyways.
* With the possible exception of drow poison, which is pretty cheap for a save-or-die effect (even if the DC is very low).
...but stringburka incorrectly stated that I said it. I would ask that you don't give me credit for another poster's comments.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that is a slippery slope I don't want to go down.
Thanks.
Since I'm interested in PCs who use poison, this is a problem. I'd gladly trade away the fact that poison effect will last much longer than spells if it means that poisons becomes more effective for PCs to use.Spells, or at least ray of enfeeblement are better for PC's, and poison is better for NPC's. As a DM I know my NPC's will die but the affect of the poison might stay with them until the next fight unless they use resources to cure it. If they fail the ray of enfeeblement it goes away automatically in a few rounds anyway.I'd use is Purple Worm poison - DC24 for 1d3 strength damage, 6 rounds, 2 saves to cure. And only 233 gp if you make it. I can't do the math exactly on average damage, but you have a 91% chance of giving -2 to everything strength-related. 99% for -1. Two doses of these against the BBEG, in the same round, would probably be death for him - With a DC of 26, even a CR8 with Fort as a good save, that's still only a 30% chance to succeed on a save, only a 9% chance to be cured...223gp to do -4 on strength.
A scroll of ray of enfeeblement costs 25gp to do -4.5 strength - about 1/10th the cost for a bigger effect.
Ray of Enfeeblement is (a) obvious, (b) permits a save for half, (c) is ineffective against more critters than it was in 3.5, (d) permits SR, (e) cannot be used as far away nor cheaply deployed in traps, and (f) is obvious. Poisons are not necessarily as obvious - asides from delivery via injury - can be used by FAR more characters (as in, all but Paladins, maybe) and at 9th level or so the party Wizard can fabricate poisons in massive batches so long as you have sufficient alchemical crafting raw materials.
Poisons are not one-round killers - they are multiple-round killers, debilitating one's foes over several rounds. Think the save DC bites face? Use multiple doses, or coordinate with your fellow casters. Have one use a spectral hand to slap a bestow curse on the victim. The cleric can utter a prayer to penalize his saves. Get nasty by having the entire group use poisons, say peppering the target with one or more bolts/arrows per character per round until they close to melee range. That DC goes up by 2 with every hit, and the duration massively increases.
Ranged attack method, party of 4, no 'normal' long range attacks left for the day, down to poisoned light crossbow bolts. Group gets initiative and volley fires 4 bolts with black adder venom at 80' against a foe with a 30' speed. Presumably you've "made them at cost", so each dose costs 40 gp instead of 120, so that volley costs just over 160 gp with the cost of ammunition. Base stats: DC 11 (cure 1 save), 1d2 CON/round for 6 rounds. The volley of 4 ramps that DC to 17, dealing 1d2 CON / round for (6+3+3+3=) 15 rounds.
Say you've just perforated a bog-standard ogre: 30' speed, +6 Fort save bonus. Group is at 80' - all you probably have to do now is scoot-n-shoot. Generally speaking, those 4 initial doses cost that ogre 1 or 2 points of CON. Ogre has a 15 CON, is rather dumb and CE, so it keeps coming - closing to 20' from the group. Said ogre has also just eaten 4d8 points of crossbow bolts - say you threw average damage for a total of 18 of the ogre's 30 hp. Wanting to see how long it takes for the adder venom to 86 the cretin, your group double-moves in circles, taking care to maintain that precious 20' of distance between them and the sorry ogre after accounting for the ogre's speed.
Assuming an initial d20 roll of 10 (total save of 16), ogre loses 1 point of CON (15 to 14) and the initial 18 hit points. Second d20 roll, next round, is an 11 (total save of 17) but the ogre loses 2 CON - effectively, the ogre loses 3 CON per 2 failed saves, meaning it will take a full minute for the black adder venom to frag him on ability damage alone - (CON now reduced from 15 to 12, lowering maximum and current hit points from 30 / 12 to 26 / 8 & lowering his Fort bonus from +6 to +5 against a DC of 17). Ogre's a bit worried now, dinner is staying out of easy reach and he's really not feeling well at all.
Round 3, ogre's d20 rolls are still hitting average - this time he rolls a 9 for a total of 14. Mark off another point of CON (12 to 11).
Round 4 is the big one - the ogre rolls a 12 or higher, it shrugs off the "el cheapo special" poison coursing through its system. However, if it fails - 55% likely at this point - then its CON drops to 9, its Fort save bonus drops to +4, max hp drop to 22 and current hp drop to (30 -18 -12 =) 0, rendering it staggered. NOW the big fella is in deep poo. Presuming that the group doesn't then euthanize it, the odds are favorable that the poison will kill the ogre.
Using the cheaper poisons in "volley doses", you can theoretically drop an ogre - admittedly requiring field of maneuver to work with, although certain barrier spells can suffice in this manner - within a minute, depending on the method of delivery or less.
An acceptable alternative to black adder venom is the lovely bloodroot poison. Cheaper at 100 gp per dose (cost 33 gp and change in materials), it also gives you a particularly formidable onset time ... of one round. With that round one's allies can try to slap a saving throw penalty on a foe, the better to succeed in delivery of the poison.
In some ways, bloodroot is preferable to the more expensive black adder venom despite/because of that onset time. DC 12 (instead of 11), dealing 1 CON & 1 WIS per round for a base duration of 4 rounds (fewer than the vicious baseline of 6 for black adder venom). However, that extra base point of DC tends to have a significant impact upon the chance of whether or not your poison-using ways are thwarted.
As a poison user, telekinesis and a healthy supply of arrows or crossbow bolts are Your Friend. A ring of telekinesis is Your Best Man / Maid of Honor. Fabricate is your Lover on the Side, as it is *pouf* poison's made, let's go kill something. The look on the victim's face when you riddle him/her/it with NINE doses of poison all at once ... priceless. Lemme see ... 5 times the base duration ... +16 to the save DC ... yeah, that drow poison is looking pretty good right now at a DC of 29 and a total "make" cost of 225 gp. Lights out, Tiny...
|
|
You do realize it takes you 2 1/2 months to make 1 dose of Dragon Bile, right?
Or you can just pull it out of the dead dragon in a couple of rounds. The crafting rules are decent for magical items, but for expensive mundane items they're ridiculous to the point that they should be ignored in favor of something that actually makes sense.
You do realize it takes you 2 1/2 months to make 1 dose of Dragon Bile, right?Or you can just pull it out of the dead dragon in a couple of rounds. The crafting rules are decent for magical items, but for expensive mundane items they're ridiculous to the point that they should be ignored in favor of something that actually makes sense.
But that would totally tread on the "Magic is awesome and you arn't" thing they have been cultivating for 30 years.
But that would totally tread on the "Magic is awesome and you arn't" thing they have been cultivating for 30 years.You do realize it takes you 2 1/2 months to make 1 dose of Dragon Bile, right?Or you can just pull it out of the dead dragon in a couple of rounds. The crafting rules are decent for magical items, but for expensive mundane items they're ridiculous to the point that they should be ignored in favor of something that actually makes sense.
No, I perfectly, agree that the craft rules for poisons are dumb. In case you didn't notice, my post previous to this was saying the biggest problems with poison were their cost and craft times. I was just pointing out that you shouldn't assume people are crafting their own poisons when talking about how cheap they are to use, because by the book they take forever and you wont get reasonable quantities.
I didn't think I would need to post fix something so blatantly obvious with a [/sarcasm] tag.
Slight derailment- If the save of a poison is con based and you buff the creatures con, will the poison save dice increase? If a druid wildshapes into a venomous creature, could he harvest his own poison and would it last past his return to normal form? My GM is still on 3.5, but I'm interested in hearing the answer for both 3.5 and Pathfinder.
In Norse Mythology the god Balder survived being poisoned after someone shapeshifted into a bush whose berries or leaves were an antidote. First the other gods had to make the snake say what kind of snake it was. The person shapeshifted had a rough time shifting back and later Balder died of something else anyway. When you shapeshift you take on all normal characteristics and can cast your own spells if the new form allows the mobility. That is a long standing convention.
I didn't think I would need to post fix something so blatantly obvious with a [/sarcasm] tag.
Perhaps you should work on your sarcasm. Your post was sarcastic to the person you replied to by being blatantly insulting to me and misrepresenting what I said.