A while back I ran into some posts asking about creating a ninja type class using the core rules only. Most people commented on using the rogue, which is a natural selection for a person of the shadows. However, as I like to find effective yet uncommon ways of doing things, I kept thinking about it and came upon this: a bard, especially at higher levels, would make a great ninja. Most people I know treat bards as buffers or field manipulators, and I usually have too, but take these things into account:
1) 3/4 BAB
2) High Skill points (especially effective with the Jack of All Trades class ability)
3) Personal spells well suited to a ninja lifestyle such as invisibility, dim door, silence, gaseous form, shadow walk, suggestion, project image, etc...
4) The perform substitution for other skills makes Perform Dance the perfect option here
5) A possible day time persona as a simple travelling musician
All in all, I think with the proper selection of feats and skill selections, a bard would make a pretty sweet ninja. Thoughts?
If you are going for the more traditional spy type of assassin, it can work pretty well. As you said, they have the ability to hide in plain sight, conceal their identity, and move secretly to places they shouldn't be at that time. Its pretty much how I have always envisioned the Bard doing things. Perform: Dance could be considered Kabuki theater style movements, giving you a perfect aliby for traveling and getting into places.
If you are going for the more modern interpretation, where they flip out and kill people, you lack the damage potential. Your not bad, but you don't have the damage to really 1 shot people the way a rogue can.
I really like the idea though.
Take a look at the 3.0/3.5 Arcanis stuff. Cadic was the god of music, song, the night, and assassination, and many travelling bards in Arcanis are cover ID's for assassins.
I'm sure there's a feat or something in there as well that would help.
You have PrC for that expanding on the base bard concept, sacrifying skill-monkey abilitites for expanded melee.
Also posted a bard variant a few days ago here that should be semi-decent.
This whole concept is, I think, the lack of imagination of the part of most. No matter how many Skald horn-blowing, sword wielding bards are mentioned, people keep seeing a prancing lute guy.Show me a build for a Skald horn-blowing, sword wielding bard which isn't going to get destroyed in melee.
Another alternative Bard - Van Helsing
What lvl would you like to see? Its quite doable.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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This whole concept is, I think, the lack of imagination of the part of most. No matter how many Skald horn-blowing, sword wielding bards are mentioned, people keep seeing a prancing lute guy.Show me a build for a Skald horn-blowing, sword wielding bard which isn't going to get destroyed in melee.
Another alternative Bard - Van Helsing
You seem to have changed what you are asking for. In the previous post, you complained that the bard was always "some silly guy with a lute." This person posited a different model of bard that was neither silly nor lute-using. Now it seems you've changed your mind; you don't really care whether he uses a lute, but whether he "isn't going to get destroyed in melee."
So... which is it?
You object to bards being mincing, prancing lutists? Or you object to bards getting destroyed in melee? Would you like a bard that didn't get destroyed in melee even if he was prancing around using a lute?
I guess I'm asking which is the important part of your objection, the style (lute-prancer) or the mechanics?
(P.S. The better melee bard doesn't play an instrument at all, but uses singing, dance, oratory, or comedy, so he can have both hands free.)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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While I want Bards who aren't silly, prancing lute players, I think it's perfectly fair to, also, argue that whatever other concept they are, they are effective at that concept.
If you want bards that aren't silly prancing lute players, I'm a little baffled as to why you think that can't be accomplished just in the base rules. Stringed instrument is only one of a dozen kinds of perform skills. Don't like that motif? Don't use it!
I'm not seeing what's so hard about that or why you seem to think bards are contractually obligated to run around looking like Ren Faire rejects. Nobody is requiring barbarians to run around in loincloths either, or paladins to only ride around in full plate on horseback saying thee and thou and milady all the time.
Now, if "silly prancing lute players" doesn't actually MEAN "silly prancing lute players" but is actually a euphemism for "class with Perform-related class abilities," then maybe I can understand your difficulty, since much of the class IS based around those class abilities, and if you can't separate "class ability related to Perform" in your mind from "silly prancing lute players" then you are going to have a problem.
I'd also argue that bards can be good at numerous roles other than performer just using the base rules and tailoring their spell list, which some folks seem to forget when they fixate on the perform class abilities. If your test is "as good at fighting as a fighter," of course they're not; they shouldn't be. They get their juice in other areas.
Regardless, I'll reiterate that the APG will have many options for taking the bard in different directions, be they particular career paths or just class abilities that emphasize their fighting, magical, or skill-monkey aspects.
Show me a build for a Bard which plays to his strengths and is not focused on performing, nor merely a secondary role such as buffer.
You realize, that Bardic strength lies in self-buffing as well as the buffing of others? A melee bard may not be buffing with spells as much as a second-line bard, but he still has the option to sing.
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Skald
Human Bard 7
15-pt buy
STR: 15 (+2 Belt), DEX: 14, CON: 13, INT: 10, WIS: 10, CHA: 16
HP: 50 (7d8, +7 CON, +7 FavClass, +7 Toughness)
AC: 22 (+8 Breastplate+2, +2 DEX, +1 Dodge, +1AmuletNatAC) FF:13 Touch: 13
Feats: Dodge, Arcane Strike, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Power Attack, Toughness
Attack: +9 KeenLongsword+1 (1d8+4 AS), +8 MWCompStr(14)Shortbow (1d6+4 AS)
Skills: Perform (Wind) +10, Perception +10, Stealth +12, Acrobatics +12, Perform (Sing) +10, Use Magic Device +13, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Oratory) +10, Knowledge (any 5) +4
Spells: Cast/Known 5/4/2; 0th lvl: Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Summon Instrument 1st lvl: Cure Light Wounds, Sleep, Silent Image, Grease, Animate Rope 2nd lvl: Mirror Image, Suggestion, Tongues, Cure Moderate Wounds 3rd lvl: Haste, Phantom Steed
Misc: Handy haversack
definitely capable of holding his own in any of the AP's as written. Not the ridiculous AC, stupid HP, hit you and make you dead tank, but certainly not the one-hit-killed nobody. Add in Inspire Courage (move action @ 7th lvl?) and Haste and he's shooting very respectfully (+11 or so, without any other buffs) on the 2nd round.
nice, M,M.
-t
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The bard I play in Galnorag's Second Darkness campaign (currently Bard 8, Dragon Disciple 3) has been the the most fun I've ever had with a character. Works as the party spy and mad scientist, plus can hold his own in most combat situations. He doesn't own a musical instrument either! All this, and he's just a little green kobold with a few bonus build points (And no, I had not heard of that other kobold bard before I made this guy).
The real beauty to the bard class is their flexibility; they can contribute something useful in every situation. Bards can cast enough battlefield control spells to free the full arcane caster up to blast away (grease & glitterdust rule low level play), know enough healing spells to allow the cleric to do other fun stuff, and can take on the goons in ranged or melee combat in order to free up the fighter and rogue to take out the BBEG. They also get good skills and bardic performance to boost their allies.
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Skald
Human Bard 7
15-pt buy
STR: 15 (+2 Belt), DEX: 14, CON: 13, INT: 10, WIS: 10, CHA: 16
HP: 50 (7d8, +7 CON, +7 FavClass, +7 Toughness)
AC: 22 (+8 Breastplate+2, +2 DEX, +1 Dodge, +1AmuletNatAC) FF:13 Touch: 13
Feats: Dodge, Arcane Strike, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Power Attack, Toughness
Attack: +9 KeenLongsword+1 (1d8+4 AS), +8 MWCompStr(14)Shortbow (1d6+4 AS)
Skills: Perform (Wind) +10, Perception +10, Stealth +12, Acrobatics +12, Perform (Sing) +10, Use Magic Device +13, Diplomacy +7, Perform (Oratory) +10, Knowledge (any 5) +4
Spells: Cast/Known 5/4/2; 0th lvl: Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Summon Instrument 1st lvl: Cure Light Wounds, Sleep, Silent Image, Grease, Animate Rope 2nd lvl: Mirror Image, Suggestion, Tongues, Cure Moderate Wounds 3rd lvl: Haste, Phantom Steed
Misc: Handy haversack
Is there any reason he isn't using a darkwood buckler? Since the bard isn't proficient with medium armor, he'd end up with a -3 on attack rolls, so he'd be better off with an elven chain.
I'd also take a different selection of spells, especially good hope and heroism as well as blur and/or mirror image.
Also, because of Bardic Knowledge, his knowledge skills would have a bonus three points higher.
The feats are identical to the ones I'd give a warrior bard, although I would probably give such a character more strength than charisma. But then, I usually use 25 point characters.
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Is there any reason he isn't using a darkwood buckler? Since the bard isn't proficient with medium armor, he'd end up with a -3 on attack rolls, so he'd be better off with an elven chain.
I'd also take a different selection of spells, especially good hope and heroism as well as blur and/or mirror image.
Also, because of Bardic Knowledge, his knowledge skills would have a bonus three points higher.
The feats are identical to the ones I'd give a warrior bard, although I would probably give such a character more strength than charisma. But then, I usually use 25 point characters.Well, the challenge was a horn-using Bard, so I kept off the shield so he could use the horn in combat. This is not really a CharOp build. It's only to demonstrate that it is doable.
I didn't count in all the class abilities, just the base stats. That's why I only put 1 pt into those 5 knowledges.
At 15-pt buy (I don't want to be accused of any cheating), it's hard to get all the stats correct. I would prefer more str, but CHA is so important I can't just ignore it.
Finally, I HAVE Mirror Image, Blur is really good for the concealment, and may be better choice than mine, but Good Hope and Heroism are morale bonuses, which do not stack with the Inspire ability. Since I will be blowing that horn (hence, no shield), those spells would be less than useful for this build (and these conditions).
Well LilithsThrall, is this Bard going to get destroyed in combat? I gave you 1st, 7th, and 14th.
In Pathfinder, Inspire Courage grants a competence, so it does stack with heroism or good hope. Also, heroism grants a bonus on saves and skill check and lasts for over an hour at 7th level.
And I'm not sure about the importance of charisma. It's nice to have, but 14 might be sufficient.
And you can easily use a buckler and a horn.
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you can easily use a buckler and a horn.Is there a rule that says so? I mean, it breaks suspension of disbelief just to say that a person can sword fight while blowing a horn. It completely devastates suspension of disbelief to believe that a person can sword fight, while blowing a horn and effectively using a shield with the arm he's using to blow the horn.
Does it matter? The bard might as well sing, dance or grip the horn with his teeth while blowing it.
If you have problems with such things, fine. But it doesn't reduce the bard's effectiveness in combat, just his selections of performance styles to use while fighting.
you can easily use a buckler and a horn.Is there a rule that says so? I mean, it breaks suspension of disbelief just to say that a person can sword fight while blowing a horn. It completely devastates suspension of disbelief to believe that a person can sword fight, while blowing a horn and effectively using a shield with the arm he's using to blow the horn.
Really? It straps to the arm and allows you to use a bow without penalty. I see no reason you can't hold a horn in it.
A while back I ran into some posts asking about creating a ninja type class using the core rules only. Most people commented on using the rogue, which is a natural selection for a person of the shadows. However, as I like to find effective yet uncommon ways of doing things, I kept thinking about it and came upon this: a bard, especially at higher levels, would make a great ninja. Most people I know treat bards as buffers or field manipulators, and I usually have too, but take these things into account:
1) 3/4 BAB
2) High Skill points (especially effective with the Jack of All Trades class ability)
3) Personal spells well suited to a ninja lifestyle such as invisibility, dim door, silence, gaseous form, shadow walk, suggestion, project image, etc...
4) The perform substitution for other skills makes Perform Dance the perfect option here
5) A possible day time persona as a simple travelling musicianAll in all, I think with the proper selection of feats and skill selections, a bard would make a pretty sweet ninja. Thoughts?
Oh look, Bards are highly skilled and have Perform and Stealth as class skills...
Oh, look at what the prereqs for the Shadowdancer PRC are... :)
You can make a very nice, nimble, mobile, stealthy warrior with a Bard. It's harder to make them stealthy assassins without Rogue or Assassin levels as mentioned previously, but certainly doable.
If I wanted to make the perfect spy, I'd use the Bard or Bard-Shadowdancer. Charms her way in, sneaks silently around and does her mischief, and then *poof*! She's gone.
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In Pathfinder, Inspire Courage grants a competence, so it does stack with heroism or good hope. Also, heroism grants a bonus on saves and skill check and lasts for over an hour at 7th level.
And I'm not sure about the importance of charisma. It's nice to have, but 14 might be sufficient.
Inspire Courage is still a morale bonus, but you are very correct about Inspire Greatness being a competance bonus.
I kinda wish Inspire Courage DID grant competance, though. It does mean I could drop some of the weaker spells and pick up Greater Heroism, though.
And the high CHA is mostly for better perform/UMD checks and bonus spells. I think it would be better if I could get the bard to 24 CHA for a 6th lvl bonus spell, but that's hard with everything else.
You're half right.
Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
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In Pathfinder, Inspire Courage grants a competence, so it does stack with heroism or good hope. Also, heroism grants a bonus on saves and skill check and lasts for over an hour at 7th level.
And I'm not sure about the importance of charisma. It's nice to have, but 14 might be sufficient.
Inspire Courage is still a morale bonus, but you are very correct about Inspire Greatness being a competance bonus.
I kinda wish Inspire Courage DID grant competance, though. It does mean I could drop some of the weaker spells and pick up Greater Heroism, though.
Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
Only the bonus on saves against fear effects is a morale bonus. The bonus on attacks and damage rolls is competence bonus. Which makes inspire courage, good hope and haste a very nice combination (with the help of a lesser rod of quicken).
And the high CHA is mostly for better perform/UMD checks and bonus spells. I think it would be better if I could get the bard to 24 CHA for a 6th lvl bonus spell, but that's hard with everything else.
What magic devices is he going to use? The bonus on perform skills is certainly nice, but so is a bonus on attack and damage rolls. If you switch the charisma and strength value you can easily drop weapon focus in favor of skill focus (umd). The bard's save DCs are still worse than the ones a sorcerer or wizard has to offer since his spells will have a lower level.
You think it's realistic to play a battle horn by gripping it with your teeth and play it well enough to get Bardic Performance bonuses for it?
Or do you just not think its relevant what breaks suspension of disbelief and has no rules to support it?
Like I wrote, it doesn't matter since the bard can easily use his voice instead of an instrument to grant those bonuses. And when I can live with people falling one mile without fear of dying, I can certainly live with bards gripping their horn with their teeth.
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I think you're looking at this the wrong way. The skald could be holding the horn in his hand and just playing a few blasts from it every few seconds. That would be IMO enough to constitute keeping the performance going. IMO You don't have to keep making noise the whole time for it to count as a bardic performance.
(edit) now there are some musical instruments that do require more attention to use that would not be appropriate for use with a shield (or anything in either hand for that matter!). Bagpipes, drums, stringed instruments, flutes and keyboards spring to mind.
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Like I wrote, it doesn't matter since the bard can easily use his voice instead of an instrument to grant those bonuses. And when I can live with people falling one mile without fear of dying, I can certainly live with bards gripping their horn with their teeth.There are rules which specifically allow people to fall one mile without fear of dying.
Are there rules which specifically allow a bard in melee with a sword and shield to grip a battle horn with their teeth and play it well enough to get bardic performance bonuses?
I asked that question earlier and, so far, you haven't answered.
In Pathfinder, Inspire Courage isn't about performing well, it's about performing. While most bards will certainly increase their performance skills, the bardic performances themselves don't require any skill ranks, just a bard level.
The performance doesn't have to be good. As long as his companions are able to hear it, they will be affected.On the other hand, discussions like this are the reason most players of bards simply select dance and sing as their main performance skills.
If it's not too much trouble, 7th and 14th. If you can show only one, then 7th.What lvl would you like to see? Its quite doable.
This whole concept is, I think, the lack of imagination of the part of most. No matter how many Skald horn-blowing, sword wielding bards are mentioned, people keep seeing a prancing lute guy.Show me a build for a Skald horn-blowing, sword wielding bard which isn't going to get destroyed in melee.
Another alternative Bard - Van Helsing
Not a wind using scald, but a Melee Bard none the less. 20 point buy (its the lowest my group plays). Not at those lvls, but I had already started it and these seem better places since abilities kick in.
At 8th lvl it combines Dirge of Doom with Dazzling Display to cause enemies to run in fear, and at lvl 9 picks up shattered defenses to attack them flat footed. AC is a problem for it, but its in the same range as a rogue. I used Perform:Comedy because it substitutes for intimidate.Back to the orriginal topic of the thread, a ninja bard, I'm working on one that dips a few levels into monk to pick up shuriken proficiency and FoB and poisons people.
Human Bard
str 16
dex 15 (+1 at 4,8, 20)
con 14
int 10
wis 8
cha 14 (+1 at 12,16)
1. Arcane Strike
H. TWF
3. Weapon Focus: dagger
5. Double Slice
7. Dazzling Display
9. Shatter Defenses
11. Imp. TWF
13. skill focus: perform
15. Two Weapon Rend
1.
Rapier +1 (+3str, -2 TWF) d6+4 (+3str+1AS)
dagger +1 (+3 str -2 TWF) d4+2 (+1str +1 AS)
special +1 hit and damge when performing
AC: 15 +3 studdd leather +2 dex
spells: expiditious retreat, grease
5.
2 daggers: +6 (+3BAB, +3str +1 WF -2 TWF+1 magic) d4+6 (3 str + 2 AS+1 magic)
Special: +2 when performing
AC:20 +5 armor +3dex +1ROP +1ANA
10,500gp
1250 +1 chain shirt
4600 2 +1 daggers
2000 +1 ROP
2000 +1 ANA
spells:
1 expiditious retreat, grease, silent image, featherfall
2 Mirror Image, Blurr, Rage
11.
2 daggers +14/9 (+8BAB, +4 str, +1 WF, -2TWF +3magic) d4+10 (4str +3 AS+3magic)
Special: +3 when performing, often attacking flat footed
AC 25 8+4+2+2
82000gp
36600 2 +3 daggers
16250 +4 chain shirt
8000 +2 ROP
8000 +2 ANA
16000 Belt of physical Perfection +2
Spells:
1. expiditious retreat, grease, silent image, featherfall, Disguise Self, Remove Fear
2. Mirror Image, Blurr, Rage, heroism, Invisibility
3. Haste, Good Hope, Displacement, Fear
4. Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Dimmension Door
15
2 daggers +20/15 (+11BAB, +5 str, +1WF, -2TWF+5magic) d4+15(5str + 5 AS+5magic)
special: +3 when performing, often attacking flat footed
AC 29 (8+5+3+3)
240000gp
100600 2 +5 daggers
25250 +5 studded Leather
18000 +3 ROP
18000 +3 ANA
64000 belt of physical Perfection +4
spells:
5. Dispel Magic, Greater Heroism, Persistent Image, Mislead
Oh look, Bards are highly skilled and have Perform and Stealth as class skills...Oh, look at what the prereqs for the Shadowdancer PRC are... :)
You can make a very nice, nimble, mobile, stealthy warrior with a Bard. It's harder to make them stealthy assassins without Rogue or Assassin levels as mentioned previously, but certainly doable.
If I wanted to make the perfect spy, I'd use the Bard or Bard-Shadowdancer. Charms her way in, sneaks silently around and does her mischief, and then *poof*! She's gone.
See, I think you can simulate all that without needing to dip. For example, by casting both silence and invisibility on yourself, you can run, jump, knock things over, climb, whatever you want for the duration and not be noticed except for by magical means. That means if you want to go assassinate someone, run for it, coup de grace, and run for it again, using a dim door if needed. Of course, at 20th level you can make somone laugh to death, so talk about the perfect covert assassination while in public...
Well.. I for one am VERY happy to see someone building a ninja by using a bard. Well done! :)
You know, the funny thing about it is, the traditional black outfits ninjas are typically portrayed in are, in point of fact, theatrical outfits, backstage outfits specifically. Since the historical ninjas were in fact keen on disguising themselves as travelling performers, and since one can watch countless jidageki films (thanks Netflix!), which show ninja types carrying shamisen and other instruments, I think it works great.
Next you will tell me that the battle Oracle is meant to allow someone to play Zatoichi...
Not that I haven't thought about it.
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Zone of Silence is by far the best spell to use if you don't want someone to hear you coming. 1 hour/level with a 5ft radius that doesn't stop you from actually using verbal components, just others from hearing them? Sign me up! This, combined with liberal use of Invisibility, is the most amazing combo for stealth. Or, better yet, Zone of Silence, Invisibility, and Gaseous Form! Now you can get into nearly anywhere without being detected. Even better yet if you can get partially charged wands of said spells. thus allowing earlier access to them.... But Zone of Silence costs 600gp per charge, so maybe just Invisibility and Gaseous Form. Gas can't make all that much noise, right?
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Which will work if the victim is standing perfectly still or is moving in a highly predictable manner - neither of which is likely.Yep, they'll never hear you coming. They may, however, wonder why everything suddenly went quiet as soon as you come within 15' of them. That kinda hurts your ability to stealth.Unless Silence was cast on an item, which you leave 15' away from the victim, and attack out of the bubble...
Or which will work if you tie a 15ft rope to a dagger, cast invisibilty on yourself and silence on the dagger, then drag it behind you.