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There have been a lot of homebrew races posted in these forums, and a great many of them are quite broken and very one-sided. There ARE some minor guidelines in the pathfinder conversion guide for making or converting races (which are often ignored, I might add) but not a lot of information on building up races that will lack an adjustment. So, after looking over the races I've written up a rough set of guidelines for making a race that will not be game-breaking, and which will be roughly on par with existing races, without having a level adjustment (typically).
Start here for stats. For the purposes of the guidelines, stat category means "physical" or "mental":
- +2 to a stat of choice if the race is at least half human.
- +2 to a predetermined stat and +2 to a stat of the other category, balanced with a subtraction from the same stat category.
Bonuses are racial bonuses, penalties are untyped penalties. Thus, racial bonuses do not stack, but the penalties do. The guidelines for races in PF are not "any combination of stats that sum to +2" as some people seem to believe.
As for racial abilities, races should have roughly the equivalent of 2.5 feats worth of abilities. To avoid dealing with fractions, we'll convert the 2.5 feats into 10 points... thus, 4 points is equivalent to 1 feat. Here are some examples of racial abilities and their "point cost":
10 point racial ability:
- Improve a racial stat bonus from +2 to +4
8 point racial ability:
- A feat of the player's choice
- Add a new +2 bonus to a stat that lacks it in a category that already has a bonus
4 point racial abilities:
- up to 30 foot fly, burrow, climb speed or up to 50' swim speed
- negate -2 worth of racial stat penalty.
- switch a racial stat bonus to the other category.
- +2 to a stat in a category with no stat bonuses yet.
- +1 bonus to all saving throws
- +1 AC bonus (armor, natural armor, etc)
- spell resistance of 6+class levels
- One natural attack that deals 1d6 or two (ie claws) that deal 1d4
- anything that resembles an existing feat (ie, gnome magic's +1 DC is identical to spell focus)
2 point racial abilities:
- 1 bonus skill point per class level
- +2 save bonus vs. small set of specific things (ie, fear, poison, disease... up to 3)
- +2 racial bonus to two different skills.
- Immunity to one type of effect (ie fear, sleep, poison)
- +5 spell resistance if the race already has it.
- One natural attack that deals 1d3 points
- Amphibious (breath both air and water)
- Darkvision 60'
- speed not reduced by heavy armor
- anything that resembles an existing feat but with half the bonus
1 point racial abilities:
- +4 dodge bonus vs. a specific creature type.
- +4 CMD bonus vs. one type of combat maneuver.
- +2 save vs one very specific thing
- +2 racial bonus to a skill.
- +1 attack bonus vs. specific creature types (one type - for humanoid and outsider must select up to two subtypes)
- Low-Light vision
- Weapon familiarity (up to 4 martial weapons - if only exotics for the race, costs 0)
- anything that is fairly trivial or minor
Things that give you MORE points to work with are generally penalties that are half as powerful as their same-point positive equivalents.
-4 point racial drawbacks
- -2 penalty to a stat that lacks a penalty in a category that has no existing penalties.
- -10 foot movement speed (a 5 foot penalty is worth nothing)
- Vulnerability to fire or cold.
-2 point racial drawbacks
- -2 penalty to a stat that already has an adjustment (positive or negative).
- Negate racial bonus to one stat
- Vulnerability to electricity, acid or sonic.
-1 point racial drawbacks
- -2 penalty to a stat in a category where additional penalties have already been applied.
- Light sensitivity
- Very situational penalty (ie, merfolk not liking to be out of water for long)
These are by no means complete or comprehensive, but they do give a rough guideline for building PF races that have no level adjustment and are on par with the existing examples of races from the Core books. Here's a quick look at a few of the existing races:
Human:
+2 to any stat
bonus feat of choice (8 pts)
+1 skill point per level (2 pts)
Half-Orc:
+2 to any stat
Darkvision (2 pt)
Intimidating (1 pts)
Orc Blood (1 pt)
Orc Ferocity (4 pts)
Weapon Familiarity (1 pt)
Gnome:
+2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Str
Small (none)
Slow (-4 pts)
Low-light vision (1 pt)
Defensive Training (1 pts)
Gnome Magic +1 DC Illusions (4 pts)
Gnome Magic cantrips (4 pts)
Hatred (1 pts)
Illusion Resistance (1 pt)
Keen Senses (1 pt)
Obsessive (1 pt)
Dwarf:
+2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Slow (-4 pts)
..and steady (2 pts)
Darkvision (2 pts)
Defensive Training (1 pt)
Greed (none - so specific that its fluff)
Hatred (1 pt)
Hardy (3 pts) - ad hoc +1 adjustment since "spells and spell like abilities" is pretty broad
Stability (2 pts)
Stonecunning (2 pts) - ad hoc +1 adjustment for the utility of 10' notice range
Weapon Familiarity (1 pt)
Merfolk:
+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha
Slow x 2 (-8 pts)
Negate racial penalty (4 pts)
Swap bonus to other category (4 pts)
+2 bonus to another stat (4 pts)
50' swim speed (4 pts)
Ambibious (2 pts)
Low-light vision (1 pt)
Can't (or won't) spend too much time out of water (-1 pts) ad hoc
Goblin:
-2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Cha
Improve +2 Dex to +4 Dec (10 pts)
-2 Str (-4 pts)
Negate bonus to mental stat (-2 pts)
Darkvision (2 pts)
Skilled (4 pts... +2 to two skills x 2)
Orc:
+4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Improve +2 Str to +4 Str (10 pts)
Negate mental bonus (-2 pts)
Penalty to mental stat with bonus (-2 pts)
Penalty to new mental stat (-1 pts)
Penalty to new mental stat (-1 pts)
Darkvision (2 pts)
Ferocity (4 pts)
Light Sensitivity (-1 pt)
Weapon Familiarity (1 pt)
Hobgoblin (12 pts, thus +1 adjustment... or CR 1/2 rather than 1/3):
+2 Dex, +2 Con
Negate racial penalty (4 pts)
Swpa bonus to other category (4 pts)
Darkvision (2 pts)
Sneaky (2 pts)
Kobold (0 pt, thus -1 adjustment.. or CR 1/4 rather than 1/3):
-4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con
-2 Con (-4 pts)
-2 to Mental stat with bonus (-2 pts)
-2 to Strength with penalty (-2 pts)
Darkvision (2 pts)
Armor (4 pts)
Crafty (3 pts) +2 to 3 skills, and two are always class skills ad hoc +1 pt
Light Sensitivity (-1 pt)
As always, the best guideline is to look at a racial ability and say "would I accept this ability as being about as powerful as a single feat? Would I let players have this ability as a feat without reservation?" If no, its worth more than 4 points! In fact, if its something you probably wouldn't let a player have as a feat, the race as a whole probably needs a level adjustment and thus the ability should be worth 8, 10, or even more points. You'll note, for example, that no 3.5 race had "Powerful Build" and 0 level adjustment... Goliaths and Half-Giants were both +1 ECL... and yet maybe a third of the races people post have powerful build with 0 adjustment.
Also notice the diminishing returns on stat penalties in the same category. This prevents people from category-loading their penalties in order to super-charge the race's stats in the other category and/or give lots of racial abilities. The Orc is an example of how you can category-load your penalties and get a pretty decent focus on the other category, but not superhumanly so!
I hope this helps some folks. Obviously when you get into fancy and intricate races you'll need to use ad-hoc point adjustments in conjunction with your common sense - the latter being the best tool of all.
Nice job VoodooMike I like.
though powerful build is grossly overpowered, slight build is nowhere near it. i would make slight build a lot cheaper than powerful build.
though powerful build is grossly overpowered, slight build is nowhere near it. i would make slight build a lot cheaper than powerful build.
Its a whole different story once you get into a wide variety of non-standard racial abilities. In general, you should ask yourself "how many feats do I think it'd take to replicate this effect?" and base your point value on that.
Powerful Build lets you use larger size weapons with no penalty, and gives you bonuses to CMD. It is worth at least two feats (so at least 8 points, possibly more).
Slight build I've only ever seen in the Web Expansion for Kobolds, and the PF kobolds don't use it. As it was, when you remove the +1 to AC and +1 to attack rolls, and the stat adjustments... there are almost no advantages to being smaller than your normal size other than squeezing. Its probably a half-feat (2pts)
Advantages and Disadvantages are not always balanced against each other - its about how much game utility is involved, hence the difference in cost of fire/cold vulnerability vs. electricity, acid, and sonic vulnerability, and so on. The average campaign will see Fire damage a lot more often than it sees Sonic damage.
I'm wondering what your guidelines for assigning LA are. To elaborate, I see that you assign a Hobgoblin a LA+1, even though it is only 2 points over. It is statistically better than some of the core, but is it worth giving up a class level? How many points do you think LA+1 is worth?
That's a total judgement call, really. I personally think the hobgoblin is probably fine without a LA, but it IS slightly better than a core race, and it does have a CR adjustment away from CR 1/3. CR 1/3 seems to be the 10 point races, and CR 1/2 is the better than core races (hobgoblin, aasimar, tiefling).
The real problem is that this is all on a power continuum rather than a ladder as levels are. How much MORE powerful do you say is worth a level adjustment? What if we add a minor feature... is it now? another one... now?
My personal thought on the matter is that you give a level adjustment as soon as a race is over core, even if that level adjustment means the resulting character is weaker than its core counterparts. In doing so, it dissuades powergaming by way of race development. Is a human with darkvision as a level 1 fighter on part with a level 2 fighter that has no special vision? Nope! However, make both of them be level 1 fighters and the one with darkvision is better than the one without. If you want to play a custom race then keep it on strict par with the core races, or accept the drawback of a level adjustment.
Of course, your group can go either way, but NOT doing so encourages custom races that slowly push at the edges of acceptable ability a bit at a time.
As for calculating level adjustment, my first, totally off-the-cuff thought was 11-20 +1, and so on... but I suspect it'd have to be a graded scale. To be honest, however, the guide is meant to help people design LA 0 races, not as a new attempt at what Savage Species failed to do (they tried to come up with a LA system that would let you make ANY monster into a PC and calculate appropriate ECL... some just have no rational ECL).
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This "guide" is all well and good, but it just seems very subjective. I don't see any problem with having two physical stat bonuses, especially if it is Con combined with another physical stat. Con is a stat that is useful by every class; why is it OK for casters to have a bonus to their primary stat along with constitution but a fighter cannot?
This "guide" is all well and good, but it just seems very subjective. I don't see any problem with having two physical stat bonuses, especially if it is Con combined with another physical stat. Con is a stat that is useful by every class; why is it OK for casters to have a bonus to their primary stat along with constitution but a fighter cannot?
As per all the core classes they have one +2 bonus to a mental stat and one bonus to a physical stat. Getting something with two bonuses to the same type, mental or physical, focusing them to one type of class. Like a race that has a +2 to wisdom and charisma would make a super good cleric.
The same could be said for Str or con, or dex and con.
It is more of a over focused on a specific role, such as melee, skill, or casting.
This "guide" is all well and good, but it just seems very subjective. I don't see any problem with having two physical stat bonuses, especially if it is Con combined with another physical stat. Con is a stat that is useful by every class; why is it OK for casters to have a bonus to their primary stat along with constitution but a fighter cannot?
Thus, the short answer is "because Paizo says so". If we're building races for Paizo's campaign setting, we should probably start with what they've declared, and with the core races as templates. PF conversion guide says one mental, one physical.
I think where you really need to put on your common-sense cap is when you look at the stats COMBINED with the racial abilities. Do they all combine to make a specific character type? For example, if we examine ONLY the stats for the core races then we see some races that have stats that seem tailored for a character type... ie:
+2 CHA, +2 DEX, -2 STR
+2 CHA, +2 CON, -2 STR
Does that look like a sorcerer to you? I'd be wary of that normally, but you look at the racial abilities and the races look a lot less tailored to sorcery. Gnomes do have a bit of magic, but they also have bonuses for fighting giants, goblins, reptiles, and they're slow moving. Halflings have physical skill benefits and weapon familiarity and fear save bonuses and are also slow.
Elves have a stat layout for a wizard, but they're penalized on CON, which is a hard hit for an already low HP class. Likewise, they've got skill boosts for perception and spellcraft, and a minor magic boost in the +2 spell penetration. The CON hit is the big sacrifice.
So, its more a matter of "what's the drawback?" - you lose mobility with the gnomes and halflings, and you lose HPs and fort save with the elf. You get stat benefits for a caster though.
Now, look at player made races... is there a broadness to the racial traits, or are they all focused on the same task the stat loadout is? Thus far, most player-made races have been task-focused rather than fleshed out. Beyond point systems, which really only serve to help determine relative power level of combined abilities, you need to look at your final product and say "is this a full-fledged fantasy race, or a tool for powergaming?"
Dark Dwarf
Stats: +2 Con, +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis
* Stats: Two physical stats with a +2 Bonus (4 points)
* Stats: Extra -2 Stat (-2 points)
* Darkvision 120 Feet (4 points)
* Defensive Training (1 point)
* Greed (0 points)
* Hardy II: +2 Save vs Disease, Fear, & Poison (2 points)
* Slow & Steady (-2 points)
* Stability (2 points)
* Stonecunning (2 points)
* Vulnerability to Electricity (-2 points)
* Weapon Familiarity (1 point)
[10 points total]
I'd say Darkvision 120 is 3 points not 4.. I don't know that 120 feet of darkvision is twice as useful to a player as 60 feet of it. Its a bit more useful but won't come into play super-often.
Otherwise that sounds spot on - I'm glad you understood the extra penalty thing. When I re-read the guide I realized its not as simple as I'd intended (mostly my poor wording).
Fire Dwarf
+2 Cha, +2 Con, -2 Wis
* Darkvision 30 Feet (1 point)
* Fire Hands: +1D6 Fire Damage to all unarmed combat & melee attacks with metal weapons. This can also be used with wooden weapons, but the weapon will burn at a rate determined by the GM. (6 points)
* Greed (0 points)
* Hardy (3 points)
* Hatred: Cold & Water Creatures (1 point)
* Slow & Steady (-2 points)
* Weapon Familiarity (1 point)
[10 points total]
Fire Hands might be more of an 8-point thing, or 1d4 for 6 points. An extra 1d6 points of damage, and non-physical, is pretty huge at low levels. It gets less so at higher levels, yes, but it does mean an additional +1 enhancement on all your weapons.
You could balance out the 8 point cost by tacking on Fire Resistance 5 (2 pts) and Vulnerability to Cold (-4 pts)
Gray Dwarf
Stats: +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha
* Darkvision 90 feet (3 points)
* Greed (0 points)
* Keen Senses (1 point)
* Passwall: Can cast the spell Passwall 2 times per day (6 points)
* Stonecunning (2 points)
* Vulnerability to Sonic (-2 points)
[10 points]
Eek, passwall is a level 5 arcane spell. I'd probably never allow that for a starting ability just because the ability to bypass walls makes life pretty hard on a DM. The reason Daylight was given such a low cost in the Aasimar assessment is that Daylight, despite being a 3rd level spell, has fairly small offensive and game-breaking potential. Fireball 1/day would not be treated the same just because it has the same spell level, and so on.
But yeah you've obviously got the picture, and lets face it, your dwarf variants are quite a bit less over the top than the majority of the player made races that have been posted on these forums. Good work!
Hmm what would you say a vulnerability to silver be?
Hmm what would you say a vulnerability to silver be?
I'd say -1, since it's rare to find silver weapons.
Hmm what would you say a vulnerability to silver be?I'd say -1, since it's rare to find silver weapons.
It is a cheap material to have really, and any character I have ever made, till pathfinder came along, always had a silver dagger or some other weapon. Or does vulnerability mean something else?
VoodooMike, consider me an ally in your battle against the broken races that persistently appear on this board. The only real flaw with your system is that by making race creation tools transparent, you enable a certain amount of validated munchkinery for people designing their own races.
But hell, they were going to be doing it anyway, so who cares?
So what ya think of my Chelonei?
Chelonei Racial Traits
Chelonei (Humanoid Turtle Species)
Ability Scores: +2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Dex
Size: Medium
Slow Pace: Chelonei have a base movement speed of 20 ft.
Natural Swimmer: Swim is always a class skill for Chelonei and they have a base swim speed of 20 ft. They also receive a +4 Racial bonus on Swim checks. In addition Chelonei can hold their breath underwater for a number of rounds equal to (6 multiplied by their constitution score), before having to make standard checks for drowning.
Low-light Adaption: Chelonei have Low-Light Vision
Shell: Chelonei have a +3 Natural Armor bonus granted by their shells, and as a move action they can withdraw into their shell. This grants them a Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning. however, they are unable to attack, move, cast spells with somatic components, and lose their dodge, and dexterity bonuses to Armor Class while withdrawn. Any items held in your hands that are not small enough to fit within the shell with you such as a dagger, must be dropped or stored elsewhere. While you're fully withdrawn you're considered to be prone.
In addition a Chelonei also gains Non-lethal Conversion 10 against Fire, Cold, and Acid Damage while withdrawn. This changes the first 10 points of damage from Fire, Cold, or Acid sources into non-lethal damage.
Unique Structure: Due to their shells Chelonei are incapable of wearing regular humanoid armor. This means that all armors must be specially constructed to fit a Chelonei. Any armor specifically constructed for a Chelonei has its cost multiplied by 2. In addition, if a Chelonei is wearing Heavy armor it is incapable of withdrawing into its shell.
Automatic Languages: Chelonei, plus one additional from bonus list. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Common, Draconian, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc
Age: Adult 20, Middle Age 80, Old 140, Venerable 200, Maximum 200 +1d%
Combat Facing Rules
If you are using the combat facing variant, any attack from behind a Chelonei that would hit their shell is instead made against their withdrawn natural armor bonus. This is twice their natural armor bonus minus their dodge and dexterity bonuses.
Chelonei are not very well known if at all in foreign lands, this is due to their tendencies for home life. Those that have heard of them, know that the stories tell of a kind, peaceful people whom are fair in all aspects. They hold family as the most precious jewel in life, and enjoy law, knowledge, and philosophy.
Personality: Chelonei tend to be a peaceful, sharing, happy people that enjoy leading simple lives. They enjoy learning new things, but above all hold family as the most important aspect of life. Although being a peaceful people, they are quick to retaliate if attacked. This is of course only if more diplomatic options fail.
Physical Description: Chelonei regardless of gender tend to have a height of 4'8" up to 6'0" feet in height. The bulk of their weight is from their shell, and this ends up giving them a total weight varying from 300-800 lbs. They are like any other humanoid creature, bipeds, and they have no hair on their turtle like bodies. Their skin is scaly, but some how surprisingly smooth and tends towards dull shades of green, brown, or yellow. It is possible for it to be lighter, more attractive shades, and even speckled. The most beautiful of the Chelonei people are the ones who have more bright, and colourful skin. The shell that all Chelonei have is very durable and helps to protect them, with some effort they are capable of withdrawing into their shells. It is unusual for Chelonei to wear clothing but some do have; gloves, belts, shoes, and bands for the head, arm, wrist or leg.
Relations: Chelonei are a peaceful race that usually stay within the boundaries of their village. They greet friendly visitors with hospitality and will often give aid to those who ask of it. Chelonei tend to have friendly relationships with Lizardfolk, but also have close ties with other species such as; Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Humans. There is a general distrust, and dislike for half-orcs due to their kin having a history of raids on Chelonei villages.
Alignment: Chelonei are creatures of order and neutrality, this leads them to be Lawful Neutral. However, the Chelonei that take upon themselves the task of adventuring tend to not fit the mold. They after all have some reason to leave their homes, and families, and explore the world. Be it a quest for knowledge, excitement, justice or revenge.
Chelonei Lands: Chelonei do not belong to any nation of their own and tend towards small villages on the boarders of other nations. Autonomy is one such trait that is common among the Chelonei peoples. Their homes tend to be built near sources of water, lakes, rivers, and oceans. Locations that crops can be grown in abundance. Chelonei villages consist of extended family units that span generations, and it is often possible for an entire village to exist solely of a single family unit.
Religion: Chelonei tend to respect and follow a more spiritual path than they do actual religion. They are more inclined to worship the forces that drive the waters, the earth, and the forests than they are any other. Though very seldom, some Chelonei turn away from the natural ways to worship the gods of other species.
Languages: Chelonei speak their own slow paced language called Chelonei. For any non-Chelonei listener it can require great patience to hold a conversation.
Names: Most Chelonei only have a single name that they are given at birth, family names are foreign to them, as they are rather closely tied to their families as their villages. That there is no need, everyone is family within their village. An example would be the Chelonei name followed by the name of their village.
Adventurers: Chelonei take up the tedious task of adventuring usually for the purpose of educating themselves with the wonders of the world, or a deeper understanding of life and more spiritual natures. They may even take up this duty to right wrongs that have been done upon themselves or their families. Chelonei tend to find that life among other races is far too fast paced for them. This is greatly known to other races who have met Chelonei and experienced their tendency towards lifestyles that allow them to take a slow pace. Chelonei love knowledge, and some even love debates of difficult issues, no matter the species they are dealing with.
So what ya think of my Chelonei?
Chelonei Racial Traits
Chelonei (Humanoid Turtle Species)
Ability Scores: +2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Dex
Size: Medium
Slow Pace: Chelonei have a base movement speed of 20 ft.
Natural Swimmer: Swim is always a class skill for Chelonei and they have a base swim speed of 20 ft. They also receive a +4 Racial bonus on Swim checks. In addition Chelonei can hold their breath underwater for a number of rounds equal to (6 multiplied by their constitution score), before having to make standard checks for drowning.
Low-light Adaption: Chelonei have Low-Light Vision
Shell: Chelonei have a +3 Natural Armor bonus granted by their shells, and as a move action they can withdraw into their shell. This grants them a Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning. however, they are unable to attack, move, cast spells with somatic components, and lose their dodge, and dexterity bonuses to Armor Class while withdrawn. Any items held in your hands that are not small enough to fit within the shell with you such as a dagger, must be dropped or stored elsewhere. While you're fully withdrawn you're considered to be prone.In addition a Chelonei also gains Non-lethal Conversion 10 against Fire, Cold, and Acid Damage while withdrawn. This changes the first 10 points of damage from Fire, Cold, or Acid sources into non-lethal damage.
Unique Structure: Due to their shells Chelonei are incapable of wearing regular humanoid armor. This means that all armors must be specially constructed to fit a Chelonei. Any armor specifically constructed for a Chelonei has its cost multiplied by 2. In addition, if a Chelonei is wearing Heavy armor it is incapable of withdrawing into its shell.
While I see that you're trying to balance the defensive bonuses by making the bonuses of variable utility, the fact is there's a LOT of defensive bonuses here, and very little by way of negatives. I *can* say that I think its too much for a LA 0 race, but lets hammer out a framework for judging that.
Lets start by looking at the benefits:
Swim Speed
Long breath-holding
Lowlight Vision
+3 Natural Armor
contingent 5/bashing DR
contingent energy resistance 10 vs 3 types
And then the blanket drawbacks:
Slow speed (20 feet)
Double armor costs
Since we're dealing with very "out there" features, its not a simple matter to assign point costs to these; rather, its harder to assign a cost everyone will agree on. It really comes down to judging four things - the natural armor bonus, the "shell" DR and shell ER, and the double armor cost.
Natural Armor +3, under the guidelines I wrote up, would be 12 points. Flat AC bonuses that stack with the various other AC bonuses characters will commonly have, are pretty powerful. Likewise, feats that give natural armor will give +1 each, and the guidelines set the cost of a feat at 4 points.
DR 5/bashing is pretty huge too. The feats we can compare it to are "improved damage reduction" which increases existing DR by 1, and feats like the warforged racial feat "adamantine body" that gives them DR 2/adamantine at level 1. We can also dive into Paizo territory and look at the feat "Fey Foundling" which gives DR 1/cold iron, with the drawback of taking +1 damage from cold iron weapons. For warforged, the DR 2 costs them their level 1 feat and counts as heavy, metal armor... so I think its safe to judge DR 1/anything to be 4 pts. DR 5/something would thus be around 20 pts under PF or 3.5 - we're only seeing DR 5/- as a 20-level culmination for classes.
The energy resistance is likewise pretty big. Nonlethal conversion is not a great mechanic - it is the regeneration mechanic more than anything else. It means, for example, that these turtlemen can sit in a fire and just stay unconscious but never dead until they die of starvation.. which is a strange concept. Regardless, nonlethal conversion means damage up to that point can never be lethal, which is not signficantly different from taking no damage in the grand scheme of things. We'll treat it as a minor contingency, but its not TONS worse than full energy resistance. Our past discussions have ER 5 vs fire or cold being 2 points, and DR 5 vs other energy as being 1 point, I believe. So, taking it as straight ER, the energy resistance would cost 10 points.
Armor costing double is not a huge drawback. It may make things a bit harder on the coinpurse at level one, but the cost of the physical armor is not where the cost of armor comes from in the long run - it costs the same to enhance an ogre-sized suit of armor as it does a gnome-sized - magic isn't size based. Likewise, magical armor and items resize themselves automagically. I'd probably give this -2 points at the most. Compare it to the warforged limitation of being unable to wear ANY armor or any body-slot items that aren't built right into them - that's a more fitting limitation to a race that is naturally armoured.
Now, assessing the point cost modification for the "only while withdrawn in shell" is where we make a lot of judgement calls. Requiring a move action to enter or exit "shell mode" is maybe too quick. It allows a caster to cast and then vanish. Taking a feat to make "stand from prone" a free action (kip up was it?) means they can alternate every second round that way. Additionally, while you've stated the race can't attack or cast spells with somatic components, the psionic classes have no somatic components. You can make a "full caster" turtleman that just stays in the shell and launches fireballs based on your current design. This makes the turtlemen super-defense casters, and while at first glance you may think there are enough drawbacks, from a mechanics point of view... not so much. I think that, at the very most, we can halve the cost of the shell defensive bonuses for this contingent aspect.
So, lets look at the total points based on all of this:
+2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Dex (0 pts)
Slow Speed (-4 pts)
Swim Speed (4 pts)
Hold Breath (1 pt)
Lowligight Vision (1 pt)
Armor costs double (-2 pts)
+3 Natural Armor (12 pts)
Turtle Shell (30pts / 2 = 15 pts)
Total = 27 pts as compared to a 10 point human or elf, etc.
Things you might consider if you care to adjust the race: natural armor bonuses can be replaced with armor bonuses - those would be worth less because they don't stack with actual armor (warforged do this to represent the fact that they have armor plates in some places, but not everywhere... turtles are shell-touch, but soft in other spots). Take another page from the warforged playbook and consider it not being possible to wear armor for these pre-armored creatures.
If a turtle is in its shell it can't really see properly. You might add in additional drawbacks to being withdrawn to make it a less desirable state. Being effectively blind while inside the shell is a good one - that would mean that rogues could use sneak attack against the turtle very easily when its hiding. It also grants total cover to all enemies even if the turtle tries casting non-somatic spells since he or she cannot target the enemies properly.
Finally, consider taking out a lot of those defensive benefits and instead giving the turtlemen racial feats. That lets them GAIN those powerful defensive benefits over time at the expense of feats that could be spent on other things.
What would be a good idea for something similiar to the Warforge's Composite Armor ability? Would it balance out? The are treated as always wearing leather, but they cannot wear any armor, so it isn't really a bonus.
what would the cost be for size tiny?
What would be a good idea for something similiar to the Warforge's Composite Armor ability? Would it balance out? The are treated as always wearing leather, but they cannot wear any armor, so it isn't really a bonus.
I suspect the overall point balance there will be negative. Being unable to put on armor or wear any body-slot items is a pretty big penalty, while having an inherent ARMOR bonus is less of a bonus. Even if you gave an inherent armor bonus to a race, I'd score it lower than any other type of AC bonus, as armor bonuses do not stack with actual armor. Maybe a 1/2 cost for AC bonuses if you're giving armor bonuses would work, and then a decent sized minus for the blocking on wearing any armor or robes, etc... -6 or -8 maybe? Additionally, having an inherent armor penalty and/or spell failure rate would be worth points too.
what would the cost be for size tiny?
You're getting into super-iffy territory if you leave the normal size ranges. Again, this guide was about making core-balanced races, not trying to do a new Savage Species fiasco list. Smaller than size small, or larger than size medium, and you're starting to seriously shift game play in abnormal ways.
In summary - invent your own cost. I'm not even going to speculate when it comes to out-in-left-field race traits, such as things that affect space and reach in a constant and significant fashion. I would just say "no" to anything like that, regardless of how it was supposedly balanced.
thanks.
if i might throw out a suggestion for your guide, i would only start calculating the points of a race after comparing the ability adjustments and skill bonuses, it seems to me that every base race gains either a +2 to 2 abilities and a -2 to 1 or a +2 to any one ability and a +2 to 2 skills, after that then you should start you calculations.
this is of course following the rule that the +2 to 2 abilities are in separate categories, i think this will alter the total points of the races.
like i said just a suggestion.
if i might throw out a suggestion for your guide, i would only start calculating the points of a race after comparing the ability adjustments and skill bonuses, it seems to me that every base race gains either a +2 to 2 abilities and a -2 to 1 or a +2 to any one ability and a +2 to 2 skills, after that then you should start you calculations.
Which two skills do humans get the +2 to? Which TWO do half-elves get a +2 to? Which TWO do Half-orcs get a +2?
I have LONG enjoyed Greg Korynta's Class Construction System as a means for developing "balance" classes. I wonder if his system could be modified to be a "Race Construction System" according to VDMike's ideas? It might prove quite useful for that...
If you're interested, Greg's system can be found here, among several others he's come up with...
Class Construction System
EDIT: The link doesn't seem to be working, so here's the URL: http://www.dragoneers.com/ideas/ideas.html
How many points would not being able to run at all be worth, lol. That or being cold blooded >.>
So how does this look now? Edit: Read the whole thing I changed things.
Chelonei Racial Traits
Chelonei (Humanoid Turtle Species)
Ability Scores: +2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Dex
Size: Medium
Slow Pace: Chelonei have a base movement speed of 20 ft.
Natural Swimmer: Chelonei have a base swim speed of 20 ft. and receive a +4 Racial bonus on Swim Checks. In addition Swim is always a class skill, and they are able to hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to (6 multiplied by their constitution score). before having to make standard checks for drowning.
Low-light Adaption: Chelonei have Low-Light Vision
Shell/Withdraw: Chelonei have a +2 Natural Armor Bonus granted by their tough shells. In addition as a move action they are capable of withdrawing inside the shell to gain Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning, and Energy Resistance 5 against both Fire and Acid. However, while withdrawn they are unable to; attack, move, cast spells with somatic components, lose their dodge and dexterity bonuses to Armor Class, take a -4 penalty to visual perception, and any items held within the hand that is not small enough to fit inside the shell with them (such as a dagger) must be dropped. In addition they are treated as if they had the prone condition while withdrawn.
Cold Blooded: Whenever a Chelonei takes Cold damage they suffer an additional equal amount of non-lethal Cold damage.
Unique Structure: Due to having a large shell that encompasses their body Chelonei are unable to wear normal humanoid armors. This means that any armor above light must be specially constructed multiplying its cost by 2. In addition if a Chelonei is wearing Heavy armor it is unable to withdraw inside its shell.
Automatic Languages: Chelonei, plus one additional from bonus list. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Common, Draconian, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc
Age: Adult 20, Middle Age 80, Old 140, Venerable 200, Maximum 200 +1d%
Combat Facing Rules
If you are using the combat facing variant, any attack from behind a Chelonei that would hit their shell grants their withdrawn bonuses against the attack with none of the penalties.
This means that they would have Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning, and Energy Resistance 5 against Fire and Acid.
============================
+2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Dex (0 pts)
Slow Speed (-4 pts)
Cold Blooded (-4 pts)
Armor costs double (-2 pts)
Swim Speed (4 pts)
Hold Breath (1 pt)
Lowligight Vision (1 pt)
+2 Natural Armor (8 pts)
5 DR = 20 pts (4 each)
ER Fire 5 (2 Points)
ER Acid 5 (1 Point)
Negatives from using Withdraw (-1 pt)
Total = 10 pts.
That cold blooded thing is really harsh man! Vulnerable targets only take half again the amount of damage they're vulnerable to, but here you've got a double damage situation! I'd rate being vulnerable to cold as a -4 weakness. That right there though... They just die from cold damage.
this is less about the point system but i have a question about making a race, if i am listing racial weapon proficiencies should i assume that simple weapons don't need to be listed.
Yeah, sort of got a point I guess. I'll lower it to half the damage in non-lethal. Thus it'd be the same as Cold vuln, but non-lethal so less harsh, but harsh enough at the same time.
Think it'd still be worth -4 points. I think it'd still be fair.
Yeah, sort of got a point I guess. I'll lower it to half the damage in non-lethal. Thus it'd be the same as Cold vuln, but non-lethal so less harsh, but harsh enough at the same time.
Think it'd still be worth -4 points. I think it'd still be fair.
I would try to argue that it isn't but the difference isn't enough to warrant even a 1 point difference using this system. Just trying to look out for prospective players who might get a bit annoyed at always getting one-shot by Cone of Cold.
Hmmmm, this got me wondering...
...what do you think of this racial build?
(Iconic Race from a famous game everybody knows)
+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Int
Normal Speed.
Medium size (but see Powerful Build).
Powerful Build (may wield larger weapons, gains +1 CMB and CMD, counts as Large for purposes of which detrimental effects may affect it, like Swallow Whole and so on).
Unusual Anatomy: Counts as "Nonhuman" when calculating armour costs.
Polite: +2 on Diplomacy skill checks.
Warded Soul: +2 on Saves against any effects created by evil undead and evil outsiders.
All in all, the race is competent in dealing damage (high strength for front-line melee, or high Int for Wizard), but lacks a bit in defensive properties (lower AC, no bonus to Con). It gains in CMB and CMD because of its Strength and Powerful Build, but loses a bit in CMD again because of its lower Dex.
Also, it will be difficult for a member of this race to qualify for TWF, Dodge and so on, cutting in on versatility a bit.
Any class can find purchase in this race's abilities but no single one will find ALL the racial abilities (including penalties) equally appealing.
And yes, I tried replicating a race from a famous MMORPG here. In said game, the race also has a host of powers that can't be mirrored in Pathfinder terms without infringing on class powers or bumping its LA to ridiculous levels. So I just left those out and went with what is most memorable about them (and least balance-threatening).
No further hints from me here.
this is less about the point system but i have a question about making a race, if i am listing racial weapon proficiencies should i assume that simple weapons don't need to be listed.
If you give a race simple weapon proficiency, all that happens is this:
You give their wizards (and commoners) simple weapon proficiency. So it seems that if you are going to do this, you should think about why their wizards are more combat trained than most.
well what i was going to do was list spear as a racial proficiency but wasn't sure if i needed to since it was a simple weapon.
well what i was going to do was list spear as a racial proficiency but wasn't sure if i needed to since it was a simple weapon.
That lets their wizards use spears. That's about all it does. Every other PC class already knows how to use spears.
i am actually working on a primitive tribal race and was going to list a few weapons they are proficient with.
I'm working on a race based on the obsidamen from the old Earthdawn setting. I figured they would be living constructs similiar to warforged. My first part is the Living Construct Template which I think would look something like this;
Living Construct
Physical Immunities: Immune to Sleep, Paralysis, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, the Sickened Condition, and Energy Drain. (16 points)
The ability to automatically stabalize (as listed in the Eberron Book). (2 points, half of the Die Hard feat)
Half effect from Healing sub-School. (-4 points)
Cannot heal damage naturally (-2 points)
Vulnerable to Heat/Chill Metal, Repel Metal and Stone, Repel Wood, and Rusting Grasp. (-1 point each, -4 points)
Composite Armor
Inability to wear armor (-8 points)
Base 2 Armor Bonus (4 points)
5% Spell Failure (-2 points)
Max Dex Bonus +6 (-1 Point)
Total Points: 5.
This is a rather advanced template and all constructive critism is welcome.
A quick correction. The race's Composite armor can be enchanted which is another situational bonus. That should bring the point total to +6.
VoodooMike, what would you say about a Large (tall) race without the natural reach of 10 ft? I always considered Powerful Build as way to create a Large race without the penalties of being Large.
I'm working on a race based on the obsidamen from the old Earthdawn setting. I figured they would be living constructs similiar to warforged. My first part is the Living Construct Template which I think would look something like this;
Living Construct
*other stuff*
The Obsidimen weren't living constructs, they were earth/stone given form and life. Also, they were quite vulnerable to poisons, diseases, suffocation (which is why none of them went swimming) and so on.
How about...
+6 Strength
-4 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
DR 2/adamantine
Can't gain the ability to wear heavy armor without spending the feat slot. Essentially, remove "Armor Proficiency: Heavy" from all classes for an obsidiman.
Additionally, give them the dwarven 'Slow and Steady' and 'Stability' traits. Automatic stabilization seems nice, too.
Maybe Power Attack as a bonus feat.
Just some brainstorming. ;-)
how big would it be to give a race a poisonous bite attack, nothing to powerful just something similar to a small snake or something similar.
Alright, had to do this for a player character in one of my home campaigns:
Starting point:
+2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Charisma (0 points)
Moar Strength!:
+2 Str (10 pts)
Me no need puny words:
-2 Int (-4)
and no Cha bonus (-2)
I've got hooves and silly knees. Also, I've got a tail.:
all heavy armour must be specifically tailored because of partly nonhumanoid body structure (-1)
I've got acute senses and You won't like me when I'm hungry!:
+2 racial bonus to Perception and Intimidate (2)
thick skin:
+1 natural armour (4)
That's not all, however...:
may take Hulking Brute and Scent as normal feats (1)
And we arive at the "Manotaur", a smaller relative of the big one:
+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence
+2 racial bonus to Perception and Intimidate checks
+1 natural armour
all heavy armour categories must be specifically tailored due to the partly nonhumanoid body structure
access to the Scent ability by taking a feat
may count as a large creature for CMB and CMD and for the purpose of which special attacks affect it by sacrificing its level 1 character feat
I'm bumping this back to the front page so that people may access it with less difficulty, and so that I may in the soon to be future present some changes to my species and hopefully get some feedback.
Chelonei Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity
Medium Size: Chelonei are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Cold Blooded: When suffering Cold Damage, Chelonei take half again as much (+50%) more Cold Damage.
Keen Senses: Chelonei receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks
Low-Light Vision: Chelonei can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Additional Rules.
Natural Swimmer: Chelonei have a swim speed of 30ft., and may hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to (6 multiplied by their constitution score) before drowning risks. This natural swim speed also grants them a +8 on all Swim Checks.
Slow and Steady: Chelonei have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
Snap Jaw: Hard-Shelled Chelonei have a Hooked Snapping Jaw which gives them a Natural Bite attack at 1d6 damage.
Claws: Chelonei have two Natural Claw Attacks which deal 1d3 damage.
Hard Shell: Chelonei have tough, resilient shells which encompass their bodies, this grants them a +1 Natural Armor Bonus.
Shelled Structure: Due to having a large shell that encompasses their body Chelonei are unable to wear normal humanoid armors. This means that any armor above light must be specially constructed by multiplying its cost by 2.
Age: Adult 25, Middle Age 85, Old 145, Venerable 205, Maximum 205 +1d%
Languages: Chelonei begin play speaking Chelonei and one additional language in their list. Chelonei with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aquan, Common, Draconian, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, and Terran.
What would you say role playing penalties would be points wise?
Such as ostracism, or other similar major penalties.
The reason I ask this is because to try and make my races for my homebrew system apealling I have made there abilites powerful however they often have trouble 'role-ing' due to their race.
Mind you this is just my setting and is very heavy role play but just wanted to know what you thought?
Thank you for writing this up, VoodooMike! This is super helpful.
The Race Cookbook made by LPJ Design really addresses race creation in a slightly mathematical bit, but so far, the book seems to nail out balanced races. I have been using it to retool races from DragonStar for my Pathfinder game, and it's been going smoothly. Helped really get rid of the level adjustments for almost every race that had one, so far anyways.