One of my friends is currently teaching English in Korea. Her Korean counterparts are convinced that a particular sentence is correct and acceptable even though anyone who speaks English as their native tongue would think a foreigner was saying it.
"They gave me it."
MS Word, and other computerized grammar checkers don't flag anything as wrong, and with a word as short as "it", searching grammar websites hasn't been very productive either.
My advice was two-fold:
1)- Since the purpose of language is communication, you should be looking for the BEST way to convey your idea. When held up against other ways of saying the same thing (i.e. "They gave it to me."), that usage is not the "most correct".
2)- English is not their first language, and in an academic context such as theirs, they are largely looking at English as a matter of theory. However, there is an old saying that there is a difference between theory and practice. In theory there is no difference, in practice there is. For those who speak English as their first language, as a matter of daily practice, "They gave me it." just plain sounds wrong.
Unfortunately, the Korean English-teachers are getting pedantic over the issue as if they feel like they are defending their honor or some nonsense. As such, my friend would be appreciative if an English teacher in a primarily English-speaking country could dive in with an assist.
Thanks in advance.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Sounds like your friend's Korean co-teachers have been looking on wikipedia, which uses this exact sentence, "the latter form [using to or for] is grammatically correct in every case, but in some dialects the former (without a preposition) is considered ungrammatical, or at least unnatural-sounding, when both objects are pronouns (as in He gave me it)."
So, grammatically correct in some dialects but unnatural sounding to most of us.
Grammaticallity Judgment Test -- Mark the following sentences as grammatical or ungrammatical.
He gave me a banana.
He gave a banana to me.
He gave to me a banana.
He gave it to me.
He gave me it.
In the end, tell your friend not to argue about 'rightness' or 'wrongness' but to say "I would never say that" and "It is wrong to my ears as a native English speaker from country X". English is so widely spoken that people will find examples of dialects where such a sentence might be acceptable.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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The sentence works. They is the subject, a pronoun substituting for some group of people. gave is the ditransitive verb. me is the "indirect object". And it is the direct object, a pronoun referring to some noun phrase.
Would you agree that They gave me the ticking octopus. is a legal sentence?
Thanks for the prompt replies. My friend's lunch break just ended, but hopefully I can catch her on Facebook chat for an update during a student exercise.
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There is nothing wrong with the sentence, and it's not as unusual as you may think--here's a fairly recent example:
"What was their philosophy? They gave me it: war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength."
--O'Brien, speaking of Goldstein during Winston's interrogation
I think it sounds quite nice, actually.
That does sound nice I suppose, but I'm not sure that an example involving brainwashing is the best way to go. ;)
Also, 1984 was written almost 60 years ago and in the UK to boot (different dialect from American English). Lord knows that the English language has changed a lot since just the 1990s let alone 1949.
Unfortunately, the Korean English-teachers are getting pedantic over the issue as if they feel like they are defending their honor or some nonsense. As such, my friend would be appreciative if an English teacher in a primarily English-speaking country could dive in with an assist.
Are you sure that linguistics is the primary issue? People in different nations can have very different ideas about the appropriate way to address disagreements. While I'm not well-read about Korea, I've heard that Koreans traditionally expect people to address disagreements with much more tact and delicacy than an American would normally employ. They may be stubborn because of the approach used, rather than the issue itself.
In the end, tell your friend not to argue about 'rightness' or 'wrongness' but to say "I would never say that" and "It is wrong to my ears as a native English speaker from country X". English is so widely spoken that people will find examples of dialects where such a sentence might be acceptable.
This, right here. The sentence is technically correct, even if it sounds odd. I was stationed in Korea for a year. The best way to address these things are to give to them the argument that it is mechanically correct, and then let them know that it sounds very awkward to modern American speakers. They keep their professional pride and still take your cues. Win-win.
Wulf: They aren't fighting, it's all been civil. My friend's degree is actually in psychology and she's probably one of THE most tactful people I know. She's been over there for the better part of a year now so she is accustomed to such things.
Kain: Good advice. Even the article on ditransitive verbs that Tarren Dei linked to said as much.
At any rate, my friend (who was following this thread via a link I sent her) reports: Problem is officially solved and [the Korean English teacher] gave me a stamp for it. I now have a rubber stamp that says "keep up the good work" to use! Thanks so much.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! :)
I'm not an English teacher, but I live in Korea. Does that count? ;)
Konglish ftw^^
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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"Ditransitive"? Would that mean, either transitive or not? I can't think of a proper use of the verb give that doesn't have a direct object.
I may screw this up but I believe that ditransitive verbs can take a direct object and an indirect object while transitive verbs only take a direct object.
Ditransitive: "He gave it to me"
Transitive: "He wants me"
Intransitive: "He fell"
stuffHangook saram imn&!#*?
EDIT: I can't believe the filter banned a common Korean verb ending. Let's try again. H a n g o o k s a r a m i m n i g g a?
Hahah
Aniyo, 100% wegookin imnida^^ (romanized Korean looks funky)On topic: While I'm not a native speaker I'd say it's okay, depending on the context as described above.
"They gave me it" might be bad English but it doesn't sound wrong to a Scotsman
'They gave it to me' should be correct. I am not familiar with Korean syntax but it seems like they might be applying their syntax to the English language and that is why it makes sense to them.
'They gave it to me' should be correct. I am not familiar with Korean syntax but it seems like they might be applying their syntax to the English language and that is why it makes sense to them.
Korean syntax would be way off. Something like "They me to it gave" if you go word by word. They do have a way of making interesting sentences, but I guess you can find that in any country.
It'd make sense in Scandinavian* though.
*It's a language with 3 major dialects/accents imo.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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'They gave it to me' should be correct. I am not familiar with Korean syntax but it seems like they might be applying their syntax to the English language and that is why it makes sense to them.
Actually, the syntax is allowed in English.
"She gave my syphilis" contains almost the same syntax. The only difference is that both of the objects are pronouns.
In some dialects of English when both objects are pronouns it sounds wrong (and therefore is wrong for those dialects). Maybe yours is one of those dialects. How are you on "They gave her it" or "They gave me her" or "We gave her it"?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Korean syntax would be way off. Something like "They me to it gave" if you go word by word. They do have a way of making interesting sentences, but I guess you can find that in any country.
Wouldn't we drop the 'they' in Korean and make it "Me-to it gave"?
EDIT: Where are you in Korean?
Korean syntax would be way off. Something like "They me to it gave" if you go word by word. They do have a way of making interesting sentences, but I guess you can find that in any country.
Wouldn't we drop the 'they' in Korean and make it "Me-to it gave"?
EDIT: Where are you in Korean?
In most cases yeah, as long as it's clear who 'they' are.
In/close to Seoul, hopefully finishing my masters degree this summer.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Korean syntax would be way off. Something like "They me to it gave" if you go word by word. They do have a way of making interesting sentences, but I guess you can find that in any country.
Wouldn't we drop the 'they' in Korean and make it "Me-to it gave"?
EDIT: Where are you in Korean?
In most cases yeah, as long as it's clear who 'they' are.
In/close to Seoul, hopefully finishing my masters degree this summer.
An MA in Korean? That's great.
I've lost a lot of my Korean but will try to get some back when I visit this summer.
One of my friends is currently teaching English in Korea. Her Korean counterparts are convinced that a particular sentence is correct and acceptable even though anyone who speaks English as their native tongue would think a foreigner was saying it.
"They gave me it."
MS Word, and other computerized grammar checkers don't flag anything as wrong, and with a word as short as "it", searching grammar websites hasn't been very productive either.
My advice was two-fold:
1)- Since the purpose of language is communication, you should be looking for the BEST way to convey your idea. When held up against other ways of saying the same thing (i.e. "They gave it to me."), that usage is not the "most correct".
2)- English is not their first language, and in an academic context such as theirs, they are largely looking at English as a matter of theory. However, there is an old saying that there is a difference between theory and practice. In theory there is no difference, in practice there is. For those who speak English as their first language, as a matter of daily practice, "They gave me it." just plain sounds wrong.
Unfortunately, the Korean English-teachers are getting pedantic over the issue as if they feel like they are defending their honor or some nonsense. As such, my friend would be appreciative if an English teacher in a primarily English-speaking country could dive in with an assist.
Thanks in advance.
Yes, it sounds strange but is OK, just as it is OK to say,"He gave me gold" or "He gave me that." The only guideline for this construction is that there must be a direct object right after the indirect object pronoun-in this case, 'it' is the direct object of 'gave.' I've never really thought about how often an English teacher encounters problems like this, but offhand I can think of so many examples. Predicate nominatives are a big one.
You don't say,"It's I" or "It is I," unless you're being silly, and yet 'It's me' is blatantly ungrammatical.
Me fail Korean? That's unpossible!
Eh, this has been answered to death, but my 2 cents:
It's not incorrect, but it is not common in American English. As Tarren Dei noted, suggesting that's not a common usage where you're from is fine.
Not an English teacher, but I have a Master's degree in English Literature and have done professional editing and proofreading work.