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Maybe this should be in the Rules Questions boards, I'm not sure... if so, I'm sure someone can toss it over there. Edit: Players of mine, please do not read any of this ;)
Anyways, I've been working on my Pathfinder RPG conversions for book 5 of Legacy of Fire and have come to realize something. Hydras suck. At least, they suck for their CR.
Let's take the Pyrohydra that comes up often in this. There's a few versions, one with 8 heads (CR 9), one with 9 heads (CR 10) and one with 11 heads (CR 12). I'll use the CR 12 one as my basis for comparison since I have a lot of other CR 12 creatures.
Now before I continue, I'm very well aware that creatures of the same CR won't always match up. Some will have higher stealth capabilities, others better social skills, others better combat, some very unique special abilities, some magic, etc. But in the case of the hydra... I don't know, it just seems like a pansy for its CR compared to everything else I can find.
Here's all the examples of CR 12s I've updated so far, behind spoiler tags.
A cleric type CR 12
BASSADOUM CR 12
XP 19,200
Male fire-infused advanced babbler cleric of Flauros 9 (Tome of Horrors Revised 26, Advanced Bestiary 111)
CE Large magical beast (fire, reptilian)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +33
Aura chaos, evil
DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +5 natural, -1 size)
hp 152 (19 HD; 10d10+9d8+57); fire healing
Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +16
Defensive Abilities elemental body; Immune fire; SR 21
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
OFFENSE
Spd 40 ft., bipedal 20 ft., firewalk
Melee 2 claws +24 (1d8+8/19-20 plus 1d6 fire) and bite +23 (1d8+8 plus 1d6 fire)
Special Attacks breath weapon (30-ft. cone, 2d6 fire damage, Reflex DC 22 half, usable every 1d4 rounds), channel negative energy 4/day (5d6, DC 15), chaos blade 1/day (4 rds.), fire bolt 10/day (1d6+4 fire damage), heat, sneak attack +2d6, touch of chaos 10/day
Spells Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +20)
5th – quickened divine favor, fire shieldD, spell resistance
4th – chaos hammerD (DC 21), cure critical wounds, poison (DC 21), tongues
3rd – blindness/deafness (DC 20), cure serious wounds, dispel magic, magic circle against lawD, magic vestment, searing light
2nd – bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cure moderate wounds (2), hold person (DC 19), produce flameD, resist energy
1st – bless, burning handsD (DC 18), command (DC 18), cure light wounds (2), protection from good, sanctuary (DC 18)
0 – create water, guidance, mending, stabilize
D domain spell; Domains chaos, fire
TACTICS
Before Combat Bassadoum casts magic vestment on his cloak and clothes at the start of each day, and before combat casts bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, fire shield, spell resistance, and tongues.
During Combat Bassadoum casts quickened divine favor and chaos hammer on the first round of combat. If in area C15, he prefers to fight from the idol’s basin and support the battle with spells.
Morale Bassadoum fights to the death.
Base Stats AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 16; hp 114; Fort +14; Melee 2 claws +22 (1d8+6/19-20 plus 1d6 fire) and bite +21 (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire); Str 22, Con 12; Skills Swim +19
STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 12
Base Atk +16; CMB +25; CMD 38
Feats Alertness, Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Elemental Channel, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (claw), Improved Natural Attack (claw), Lightning Reflexes, Quick Draw, Quicken Spell, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +16, Perception +33, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +9, Swim +21; Racial Modifiers +4 Acrobatics, +4 Swim;
Languages Draconic, Ignan; tongues
SQ spontaneous casting (inflict spells)
Gear headband of Wisdom +4, ring of protection +2, bronze jewelry worth 285 gp
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Elemental Body (Ex) Bassadoum has a 25% chance to ignore the effects of poison, paralysis, sleep, stunning, or additional damage caused by sneak attacks and critical hits.
Fire Healing (Ex) Bassadoum heals 1 hit point for each full round it is in contact with fire. When struck by a magical fire effect, he heals a point of damage per 10 points of damage the fire effect would have otherwise dealt.
Firewalk (Su) Bassadoum can climb an object on fire as though it had a 40-foot climb speed. He can fly at a speed of 40 feet with perfect maneuverability so long as he’s in contact with fire. He can walk on top of fire as if walking on air with an air walk spell.
Heat (Su) Bassadoum’s natural attacks and metallic weapon melee attacks deal an extra 1d6 points of fire damage.
An undead type CR 12
QILZAR AGHA BAGOAS CR 12
XP 19,200
Eunuch dwarf advanced elite darnoc (Tome of Horrors Revised 90)
CE Medium undead (incorporeal)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +24
Aura frightful presence (30-ft., DC 23, 4d6 rds.)
DEFENSE
AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 14 (+4 deflection, +4 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 153 (18d8+72)
Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +14
Defensive Abilities +2 turn resistance; Immune cold, undead traits; SR 25
OFFENSE
Spd fly 30 ft. (perfect)
Melee incorporeal touch +17 (1d8 plus curse of the grave)
Special Attacks discord
TACTICS
During Combat Bagoas begins combat with his discord ability, which also activates his frightful presence, and then springs forward to use his touch attacks and retreats back to the pavilion.
Morale Bagoas never flees from combat.
STATISTICS
Str --, Dex 19, Con --, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 18
Base Atk +13; CMB +17; CMD 28
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (incorporeal touch), Mobility, Wingover
Skills Fly +33, Intimidate +25, Knowledge (nobility) +20, Knowledge (religion) +23, Perception +24, Stealth +25
Languages Common, Dwarven, Ignan
SQ rejuvenate
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Curse of the Grave (Su) Any damage dealt by the darnoc’s incorporeal touch does not heal naturally and resists all magical healing. Before the damage can be healed, the curse must first be broken with a break enchantment or remove curse spell (requiring a DC 20 caster level check for either spell).
Discord (Sp) Once per day, a darnoc can scribe a symbol in the air. All creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or higher within 60 feet who can see the symbol must make a DC 23 Will save or immediately fall into loud bickering and arguing. Meaningful communication is impossible, as is spellcasting with verbal components, but other actions can still be undertaken. Each round, there is a 50% chance that a bickering creature attacks another target of an alignment different than its own different alignment—if there are multiple possible targets in sight, determine the target attacked randomly. Once a darnoc creates this effect, the symbol remains in the air for up to 2 hours before fading. It also fades if the darnoc is destroyed, and can be dispelled (CL 18th). This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Rejuvenate (Su) Bagoas rejuvenates at full hit points in area D18 2d6 rounds after being reduced to 0 hp until presented with the deed to the citadel (see above).
A combat type CR 12
ARGBADH KARAMBAGYA CR 12
XP 19,200
Male elite bronze giant (Tome of Horrors III 84)
N Huge humanoid (giant)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +19
DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 10, flat-footed 22 (+2 Dex, +14 natural, -2 size)
hp 216 (16d8+144)
Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +10
Defensive Abilities rock catching; DR 10/--; Resist fire 20
OFFENSE
Spd 50 ft.
Melee +1 keen longsword +24/+19/+14 (3d6+20/17-20) or 2 slams +23 (1d8+13)
Melee (Power Attack) +1 keen longsword +20/+15/+10 (3d6+32/17-20) or 2 slams +19 (1d8+21)
Ranged bronze throwing sphere +13 (2d8+19)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks rock throwing (120 ft.), sardonic laugh
TACTICS
During Combat Karambagya uses his sardonic laugh and hurls bronze shot before charging in for melee with his longsword, attacking with a power attack.
Morale Karambagya is disconsolate at his current circumstances and gladly fights to the death.
STATISTICS
Str 37, Dex 15, Con 29, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +12; CMB +27 (+31 bull rush); CMD 39 (41 vs. bull rush)
Feats Awesome Blow, Cleave, Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +18 (+31 jump), Perception +19
Languages Giant, Ignan
Gear +1 keen longsword, bronze throwing spheres (14), boots of striding and springing
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Sardonic Laugh (Ex) As a standard action, a bronze giant can unleash a bellowing laugh that strikes fear into the hearts of any creature within 100 feet that hears it (DC 18 Will save negates). On a failed save, a creature is shaken as long as it remains within 100 feet of the giant and for 2d4 rounds thereafter. Creatures that save are immune to that bronze giant’s laugh for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.
All of these creatures are very different. One is a great cleric, one is an amazing fighter, and one is a dangerous incorporeal undead. All are unique, but I think equally challenging in different ways. No question in my mind that they're all CR 12.
Then we come to the hydra.
ELEVEN-HEADED PYROHYDRA CR 12
XP 19,200
N Huge magical beast (fire)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 9, flat-footed 20 (+1 Dex, +12 natural, -2 size)
hp 115 (11d10+55); fast healing 11
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +5
Immune fire
OFFENSE
Spd 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee 11 bites +14 (2d6+4)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks breath weapon (15-ft. cone, 3d6 fire damage, Reflex DC 19, usable every 1d4 rounds per head), pounce
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9
Base Atk +11; CMB +17; CMD 28 (can’t be tripped)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Perception +16, Swim +12; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
SQ hydra traits, regenerate head
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Fast Healing (Ex) A pyrohydra's fast healing ability is equal to its current number of heads (minimum fast healing 5). This fast healing applies only to damage inflicted on the hydra's body.
Hydra Traits (Ex) A pyrohydra can be killed by severing all of its heads or slaying its body. Any attack that is not an attempt to sever a head affects the body, including area attacks or attacks that cause piercing or bludgeoning damage. To sever a head, an opponent must make a sunder attempt with a slashing weapon targeting a head. A head is considered a separate weapon with hardness 0 and hit points equal to the pyrohydra's HD. To sever a head, an opponent must inflict enough damage to reduce the head's hit points to 0 or less. Severing a head deals damage to the hydra's body equal to the hydra's current HD. A pyrohydra can't attack with a severed head, but takes no other penalties.
Regenerate Head (Ex) When a pyrohydra's head is destroyed, two heads regrow in 1d4 rounds. A pyrohydra cannot have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time. To prevent new heads from growing, at least 5 points of acid or cold damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before they appear. Acid or cold damage from area attacks can affect stumps and the body simultaneously. A pyrohydra doesn't die from losing its heads until all are cut off and the stumps seared by acid or cold.
I mean... eh. It just seems unsatisfying. I upped the damage of its heads to 2d6 with Improved Natural Attack, and it does have 11 bites and pounce, which is nice. But the strength damage is relatively low and even though it gets 11 of them, it just seems like a pansy otherwise. I suppose if it hits with *every* bite then it can average 121 damage, but that's with 11 rolls and a relatively low attack modifier compared to all the others. The 'combat' example up there can average 90 damage with its three attacks, the lowest one equaling the bite modifier. And that has a 17-20 crit range. Plus the power attack, guh. Then it goes up to an average 126 damage, with two of the three attacks still having a better modifier than the hydra. And only needing to make three attacks for that damage is better than eleven.
Give a party of four level 11-12 PCs one or two rounds and they could easily tear this hydra apart. There's not even a real reason to go after the heads, fast healing 11 doesn't help much when the party can easily do 5-7 times that each round. An AC 21 is only so so, and 115 hp does seem like a decent amount... but at that level? Eh. All other three have 40-100 more hp than it.
I'm just not impressed. Anyone else get this feeling? And I don't want to start a discussion about all CR inadequacies, I'm sure there are more. Just the hydra. Anyone else think the CR is too high for what it does? Perhaps if it got to go up in size with the extra heads...
Oh, and sorry for the lack of bolding and such. I have it all nicely formatted in word but don't really want to take the time to apply the B tag to everything in there. :)
Cryohydra/Pyrohydra (+2 CR): Variants of the standard hydra, the cryohydra lives in cold marshes or on glaciers, while the pyrohydra prefers deserts or volcanic mountains. A cryohydra gains the Cold subtype, while a pyrohydra gains the Fire subtype. Each of its heads has a breath weapon (15-ft. cone, 3d6 cold damage [cryohydra] or 3d6 fire damage [pyrohydra], Reflex half) useable every 1d4 rounds. The save DC is 10 + 1/2 the hydra's HD + the hydra's Con modifier. Although fire attacks cannot prevent a pyrohydra's neck stump from growing new heads (since it is immune to fire), 5 points of cold damage does. Acid works normally on both hydra variants.
...every head. So on a full attack, that's alota breath.
I've always been underwhelmed by the hydras in 3.5 and still in pathfinder. they just don't have enough bite, and die way too fast. One possible solution for you, which I have used before, is based on the fact that we all know the PCs will just go for the body and bam, it's dead. SO what I have done on occasion is when they killed the body, the heads still lived on as detached separate entities, each with half the total HP of the original beast. They then would no longer regen and split in two when they were killed. Seemed to make the battle more appropriate in my sessions.
Creative Director
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The reason the hydra's CR is what it is is that it's kinda a broken monster. It SHOULD be higher CR with more hit points, more AC, better stats all around. What we have with the hydra as is is a monster whose damage output is VERY high but whose other stats are nowhere near what they should be for that CR.
What this boils down to is that if your PC starts a combat next to a hydra or within its pounce range and loses initiative, he'll probably be in a world of hurt. But if you can outmaneuver the hydra and stay out of range of its insane number of attacks, it can be a cakewalk. The CR is set more or less in the middle of the zone... too low for its damage but too high for the rest. It's a VERY swingy monster with a threat level that varies greatly depending on the setup.
This is one monster we should have probably just thrown the 3.5 CR out the window on and upped its stats to match its damage potential; We did this for the kraken, after all. We were just trying to limit the number of times we did that.
In any case, there's NOTHING wrong with adjusting a hydra's CR in game to more accurately represent the level of threat it created in your group. Just be careful using them. They may die fast, but if they manage to get up on a PC an make all their attacks, it can hurt!
If your party is not afraid of a Hydra because they can get in on and beat it to death in a round or two by beating its body then have the hydra be a little smarter.
A smart hydra will sunder its own heads so it is always walking around with double the number of heads. In the PRD it does not say how long the extra heads stay around.
Regenerate Head (Ex) When a hydra's head is destroyed, two heads regrow in 1d4 rounds. A hydra cannot have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time. To prevent new heads from growing, at least 5 points of acid or fire damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before they appear. Acid or fire damage from area attacks can affect stumps and the body simultaneously. A hydra doesn't die from losing its heads until all are cut off and the stumps seared by acid or fire.
In the case of your pyrohydra if the PCs do not have fire resistance you will toast a few of them in the first round. 22 15' cones doing 3d6 save for half. If they make all their saves average damage in 1 round is 115 points of damage.
On the round it decides to attack the party let's assume it hits only 50% of the time, that is 11 hits for on average 121 points of damage.
First round breath should be the the death or near death of 1 to 2 PCs.
Second round finish off the injured PCs work on a new one.
By the end of the second round 2 PCs should be dead if they went up to kill the hydra.
Also each head recovers its breath weapon in 1d4 rounds. Roll for each head.
Round 1: All 22 attack with breath weapons
Round 2: 25% recover breath weapon. 5 use breath weapons 18 attack
Round 3: 25% recover breath weapon. 6 use breath weapons 17 attack
The damage output is INSANE! Just play the hydra smart.
Oh and Hydra's have loot right? Treasure type Standard.
Well who says the hydra's loot is not a belt of mighty +4. Or +22 hit points and +2 to breath save.
Or an amulet of mighty fists +0, frost. Add an extra 1d6 cold damage to each attack!
Heck ditch iron will and lightning reflexes and pick up toughness two more times, another 22 hitpoints.
Or bumped it CR 1 more by adding the Advanced template! +2 to hit and damage, +22 hitpoints, +4 AC (+2 dex, +2 nat armor)
Add those three together: Advanced Template, Belt of Mighty, and Pick up toughness two more times gives you.
+66 hit points, +2 to hit and damage with bite, +4 AC, Breath weapon DC 23. Makes it a lot meaner!
Here is another way to beef that bad boy up. Add half red dragon to it.
ELEVEN-HEADED half Green dragon PYROHYDRA CR 14
XP ?
N Huge Dragon (fire)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 9, flat-footed 20 (+1 Dex, +16 natural, -2 size)
hp 170 (11d10+110); fast healing 11
Fort +14, Ref +8, Will +3
Immune fire, acid, sleep, paralysis,
OFFENSE
Spd 20 ft., swim 20 ft., fly 40 ft.
Melee 11 bites +21 (3d6+7) 2 claws +16 (1d8+7)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks breath weapon (15-ft. cone, 3d6 fire damage, Reflex DC 23, usable every 1d4 rounds per head), pounce
STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Base Atk +11; CMB +17; CMD 28 (can’t be tripped)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack, Toughness, Toughness, Weapon Focus (bite)
Equipment: Belt of Mighty +2, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Rhino hide Armor
Ok so you cannot stop heads from regrowing now since it is immune to fire and acid.
Hitpoints are high, and it flies!
You charge 80 feet with fly and power attack with the base bad boy for 11 bites at +18 (3d6+13) with the charge it is actually +20 (5d6+13). Oh don't forget his two claw attack at +15 (1d8+2d6+13).
go with 75% hit rate average damage: 264 points of damage with 15' reach! Hmmm that's a dead PC a very hurt PC and scared PCs.
If you had the smart hydra that sundered its own heads and only had 50% success (bad rolls): 354 average damage on the first round charge, 2 dead PCs other PCs ready to run.
TPK if Hydra gets jump on the party.
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The 3.5 Hydra had a nasty ability in that it could AoO with each head independantly, so it was very difficult to close in on.
I would keep this and consider giving the hydra one standard-action per head, rather than just one byte per head, and maybe add improved grab, snatch, and the ability to grapple with each head without taking -20.
In other words, consider it more like lots of individual serpent heads attached onto one body. Only one move action possible in a round, because only one body, but otherwise each head has its own standard action. If the hydra also casts spells, this could be pretty devastating.
Richard
The weirdest thing is, our lvl 14 party would tear that hydra a new one, even just two or three of us.
I have always been of the opinion that hydra's should be treated as ambush predators. Shift their skills around so they have stealth, have it hide under water and then surface ripping into an unsuspecting PC and dragging them under the water.
oh... and i like to take them back to greek myth and give them poison...really nasty poison
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I think in 3.5 the hydra was still over ranked. I soloed a 9 headed cryo hydra with a Fighter. Sure had to use the Tower Shield for cover a few times to chug some healing potions and the fight lasted well over 10 rounds and I had about 10 HP left when it fell... but I did solo it... barely.
A party would have trashed it in nothing flat.
But then again, to be honest, MOST monsters are killed nothing flat. I would say that in PFS the average combat is 2 rounds before the monster is dead, with 1 PC getting hit for some damage if lucky. It seems to me the whole CR=level issue is not to throw a serious life and death threat at the party but to waste their resources. If you want the PCs to actually have a chance to face death you need a CR of at least level +3. Anything less isn't a serious threat to life and limb.
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I have always been of the opinion that hydra's should be treated as ambush predators. Shift their skills around so they have stealth, have it hide under water and then surface ripping into an unsuspecting PC and dragging them under the water.
oh... and i like to take them back to greek myth and give them poison...really nasty poison
and Rending... if two heads get a hot they should rip you apart!
Lots of little things that can be added to make them better.
mmmm looks like someone needs to write a Hydra supplement... make the book hydras the boring low level standard easy kill hydras, now we get the REAL hydras of myth!
My group still makes jokes about hydras to this day, nearly two years after I started running them through Red Hand of Doom. Emphasis on started; that campaign lasted one encounter. TPK in the first encounter! Like others have said, in 3E if a hydra got within melee range of a PC, and that PC didn't have Improved Sunder, then that PC was as good as dead. (In 3E, at least; they do look somewhat toned down in Pathfinder.)