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I have a quick question. What is the difference between a zombie, and a flesh golem?
Zombies are corpses, animated with necromantic magic and are either free-roaming (unintelligent) or controlled by their creator (or someone that has gained control of them).
Flesh golems are animated constructs, built from the bodies of various corpses and animated with an "elemental spirit" of some kind. Flesh golems are under the control of their creators, or have gone 'beserk' and lash out at anything near them.
Both are resistant to damage, though a flesh golem is tougher than a zombie of the same hit die. Flesh golems have more resistances, but are harder to repair (as zombies can be "healed" with negative energy).
What Thammuz said.
Zombies are undead creatures. Think of them as 'living' dead.
Flesh golems are constructs. Think of them more as robots or automatons than creatures.
In terms of why one is undead while another is a construct, they are generated through different creation methods. Infused with negative energy and necromancy for a zombie versus trapped elemental spirit and necromancy for a flesh golem.
Thematically they are different mainly because of their origins. Zombies are more inspired by voodoo (for the servant kind) and zombie movies (for the free-roaming variety). Flesh golems are basically Frankenstein monsters. In Classic Horrors Revisited there's even information for them gaining an INT score and being much more tragic characters like the Frankenstein monster.
Also, as constructs, flesh golems don't have the same vulnerabilities that undead do, but can be superficially mistaken for undead by an uninformed adventurer.
For a more confusing one, what's the difference between a whole lot of rock infused with an elemental spirit (earth elemental) and a whole lot of rock infused with an elemental spirit (stone golem)? ;)
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For a more confusing one, what's the difference between a whole lot of rock infused with an elemental spirit (earth elemental) and a whole lot of rock infused with an elemental spirit (stone golem)? ;)
Earth elemental is a short term binding on our plane using any available earthen matter, where as a Stone Golem is a permanent one bound in a stone form.
Due to the differences of creation and the target substance they are very much different things.
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Thank you every one for your answers. So if I understand this correctly, a zombie is a corpse that has been animated through the animate dead spell, using negative energy, which is an evil act.
A flesh golem is made through the “stitching “ together of several corpses, and it is animated by binding an elemental spirit to the mass of dead tissue by using something like a Manuel of golems. While a morally ambiguous act (we are not sure if this is a good or evil act), the golem is under control of the creator, unless it goes “berserk”.
Thanks. As suggested in the classic horrors revisited, a flesh golem might be something nice to stick in with other undead monstrosities.
For a more confusing one, what's the difference between a whole lot of rock infused with an elemental spirit (earth elemental) and a whole lot of rock infused with an elemental spirit (stone golem)? ;)Earth elemental is a short term binding on our plane using any available earthen matter, where as a Stone Golem is a permanent one bound in a stone form.
Due to the differences of creation and the target substance they are very much different things.
More than that:
Earth elementals are not bound in stone... they are living stone. It's not "I take this spirit and put it in the rock" It's "I summon the spirit OF this rock." They aren't critable because all the rock is a full part of their body unlike the golem (the "shape" doesn't matter... they are innately aware and capable of changing any part of the body as they see fit).
An earth elemental is a soul too... the body and soul are the same thing instead of separate like in prime material creatures.
Thank you every one for your answers. So if I understand this correctly, a zombie is a corpse that has been animated through the animate dead spell, using negative energy, which is an evil act.
A flesh golem is made through the “stitching “ together of several corpses, and it is animated by binding an elemental spirit to the mass of dead tissue by using something like a Manuel of golems. While a morally ambiguous act (we are not sure if this is a good or evil act), the golem is under control of the creator, unless it goes “berserk”.
Thanks. As suggested in the classic horrors revisited, a flesh golem might be something nice to stick in with other undead monstrosities.
To me the simple thing is this. A zombie is a decaying moving corpse, while a flesh golem is more like Frankenstein's monster.
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Zombies are corpses, animated with necromantic magic and are either free-roaming (unintelligent) or controlled by their creator (or someone that has gained control of them).
Hey now! Let's not have any disparaging comments about the supposed lack of intelligence among the heart beat challenged. Why, just the other day, Larry Lichman and I had a nice discussion on the social and philosphical ramifications of brain-eating vice flesh-eating (a very important distinction).
As a player, I know the difference. One is a mook, one is a bad@**. I've noticed their similarity before too, and noticed the irony that they are esentially the same group of ingredients. Just because a flesh golem can have arms that didn't originally belong to it's torso, it's supposed to be stronger??? Why not just animate the corpse of a weightlifter? Seems illogical.
However, you can't just look at the creatures superficially. Essentially, I think you have to ignore the stat block and emerse yourself into the story to get the real difference.
To me, undead are an attempt to violate the natural order. They are a soul avoiding the afterlife (voluntarily or not) in some way. Yes, even "stupid" undead, like zombies, have at least a fragment of the soul, which to me is why agents of divine beings (clerics) have power over them (turn undead). I think that Egyptian mythology had a belief in a multi-part soul, five parts in fact, so perhaps a zombie or skeleton only has one of the parts.
Conversely, my idea of a construct is simply that someone was looking at a bunch of material and trying to build the optimal servant out of it. Creators of constructs have no interest in the soul. In fact, giving the creature a soul makes it vulnerable to turning by pesky clerics. These creators just want the best building blocks available to make the best minion possible. If the raw materials they happen to use are formerly living material, so be it.
Philisophically, these creators see no difference between a block of stone and a soul-less pile of formerly living material. They do not attampt to infuse the material with a soul, and therefore the golem is not affected by turning undead.
Perhaps it's easier to animate a collection of parts with a soul (or part of a soul) because a soul spent it's entire life animating it's body. However, perhaps taking the easy route is what makes zombies weaker than flesh golems. Perhaps the easy route is not the optimal route.
Anyway, without looking at the creatures through the eyes of someone inside the story, there really isn't a good reason why one is vastly more powerful than the other.
Thats my 2 coppers.
One is animating a corpse with ambient energy, one is animating a corpse with an enslaved spirit. The former is evil, the latter is not.
Reasons? Hellifino.
One is animating a corpse with ambient energy wich has antilife properties and, at least according to Libris Mortis, the Book of bad Latin, emanates them, wich eventually corrupts, mutates and even reanimates its surroundings acting as minor beacon of negative energy.
One is animating a corpse with an enslaved spirit, wich is non-sentinent and therefore not a person (anything with an ability score of at least 3) and not subject to the ¨slave¨ condition.
The former is dumping nuclear waste, the later is cultivating fungi to make yogurt or something.
Humbly,
Yawar
I know the bestiary lists each of the undead as evil (CHANGED FROM 3rd ED.), but I take issue with the assumption that necromancy is evil. For that matter, I disagree that ALL undead are evil. Certainly, many are, but several fiction stories have examples of good undead. Blade, Louis from interview with the vampire, Angel from the Buffy series, etc.
Also, on a related note...
At least for my game, I feel that something has to have at least an intelligence score of 3 to be evil. Skeletons (no intelligence) can't make moral decisions, and therefore are no more evil than an animated object. Again, that's not official, just my homebrew ruling.
I guess my point is that you shouldn't try to define the difference with rule terminology, like "it's evil... 'cause it says so". That type of reasoning may help the player in a metagame way, but it doesn't help the player character at all.
That's like saying the difference between demons and devils is that one is CE, and the other is LE. While true, it's not the best way to describe it because it doesn't help the character distinguish the difference. Alignment is just a label. Real people don't go around stating their alignment. Some people may not even know thier own alignment. Characters in a story shouldn't state alignments either.
I still think the real difference between the flesh golem and the zombie is in the soul. Undead have them, construct's dont. It's a simple answer that works IN the game story.
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The reason for the 'Evil' tag is because they are animated by pure negative energy, and therefore no matter how many orphans an intelligent undead saves, he will still detect as evil because of the unholy energy powering his body.
That, and most undead are naturally evil (which is why an uncontrolled zombie or skeleton will just go around attacking anything that moves), or have had to survive by feeding off of the living for so long that they just don't see living beings so much as people, but more like hamburgers.
The reason for the 'Evil' tag is because they are animated by pure negative energy, and therefore no matter how many orphans an intelligent undead saves, he will still detect as evil because of the unholy energy powering his body.
Neutral clerics can use negative energy. Yet, they are NEUTRAL.
That, and most undead are naturally evil (which is why an uncontrolled zombie or skeleton will just go around attacking anything that moves),
There are PLENTY of real world creatures that do this. All viruses, all bacteria, a large number of animals, and even some plants. I wouldn't call any of them "naturally evil". If they lack intelligence, it's my opinion that they shouldn't be considered evil.
or have had to survive by feeding off of the living for so long that they just don't see living beings so much as people, but more like hamburgers.
I feed off of the (formerly) living every day. I see a cow as... my next hamburger. Maybe I'll put bacon on it and cause the death of two animals. Three, actually, because the bun I'll eat used egg as an ingredient. Then there are all the plants that are also living things that had to die as well for me to have my bacon cheeseburger. I'm getting hungry just talking about it. Are you suggesting that everyone that eats bacon cheeseburgers is evil?
On a related note, I feel that just because something attacks humans doesn't make it evil, as long as it's motiviation is survival or instinct. Everything is food for something else, even humans.
I guess I see alignment as more of a bell curve than an even distribution.
Chalk it up to different strokes, I guess. I still see the main issue of something being evil as being with the creature's ability to make a conscious decision to perform evil acts. All I'm saying is that as far as my game is concerned, no intelligence = Neutral. That includes undead for my game. If you DM, feel free to do it differently.
