I want to hire a smith to create a huge sized greatsword and longbow for my shield guardian to use. Sadly, I can't find rules for making weapons of such size (of particular concern is the price and weight). The equipment chapter says to double the price and weight of items for large creatures, but says nothing at all for huge and greater weapons.
Furthermore, the construct type says that humanoid constructs are proficient with any weapon mentioned in their stat block. Since my golem's stat block will list greatsword and composite longbow, does that mean he is proficient in them? If not, is there a way for me to make him proficient?
I guess nobody knows then?
Creative Director
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I want to hire a smith to create a huge sized greatsword and longbow for my shield guardian to use. Sadly, I can't find rules for making weapons of such size (of particular concern is the price and weight). The equipment chapter says to double the price and weight of items for large creatures, but says nothing at all for huge and greater weapons.
Furthermore, the construct type says that humanoid constructs are proficient with any weapon mentioned in their stat block. Since my golem's stat block will list greatsword and composite longbow, does that mean he is proficient in them? If not, is there a way for me to make him proficient?
Costs for weapons beyond the sizes PCs normally interact with weren't important enough to get wedged into the rulebook. You could certainly extrapolate the costs based on the differences between Small, Medium, and Large weapons, though. It's not something we've put a lot of thought into yet though.
After all it is effectively twice as long, twice as wide, and twice as thick (to stay proportional) and 2x2x2 = 8.
Who says it's proportional? Daggers, which are effectively small shortswords, are about the same thickness as medium-sized shortswords.
Anyway, there are only two examples of weapon-using golems that I can think of, both in Rise of the Runelords. The first is in module #2 and is an intelligent golem, the second is in module #5 and is a specially-crafted golem.
Ordinary golems cannot use weapons to attack.
Ordinary golems cannot use weapons to attack.
That's not true. If I command my golem to use weapons in a fight, then he will use weapons in a fight.
Likely not proficient in said weapons though.
Ordinary golems cannot use weapons to attack.That's not true. If I command my golem to use weapons in a fight, then he will use weapons in a fight.
Likely not proficient in said weapons though.
Golems have no intelligence. It goes beyond mere nonproficiency: they cannot actually USE weapons because weapons are a completely alien concept. You tell your golem "Use this weapon to attack with" and it's just going to flail away with it as if it were part of the golem. At best you could use improvised weapons rules for them. However, the intent is pretty clear that standard golems, even if they have weapons, use them as part of their slam attack.
Weight is easy: it doubles every size category. Now cost is a different story. You might be able to hunt through some 3.5 books.
Golems have no intelligence. It goes beyond mere nonproficiency: they cannot actually USE weapons because weapons are a completely alien concept. You tell your golem "Use this weapon to attack with" and it's just going to flail away with it as if it were part of the golem. At best you could use improvised weapons rules for them. However, the intent is pretty clear that standard golems, even if they have weapons, use them as part of their slam attack.
Is there some rule I am missing that says you treat mindless creatures differently than others where weapons are concerned?
Golems have no intelligence. It goes beyond mere nonproficiency: they cannot actually USE weapons because weapons are a completely alien concept. You tell your golem "Use this weapon to attack with" and it's just going to flail away with it as if it were part of the golem. At best you could use improvised weapons rules for them. However, the intent is pretty clear that standard golems, even if they have weapons, use them as part of their slam attack.Is there some rule I am missing that says you treat mindless creatures differently than others where weapons are concerned?
Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics.
Unless your character is there to give it precise blow-by-blow attack instructions ("Swing your sword waist high from left to right"), the only way a golem knows how to attack is by smashing. It doesn't know HOW to attack with a weapon. Since it doesn't know how to attack with a weapon, telling it to attack with a weapon is just going to result in it attacking as it normally would, only aiming the weapon at the target instead of its fist.
Golems have no intelligence. It goes beyond mere nonproficiency: they cannot actually USE weapons because weapons are a completely alien concept. You tell your golem "Use this weapon to attack with" and it's just going to flail away with it as if it were part of the golem. At best you could use improvised weapons rules for them. However, the intent is pretty clear that standard golems, even if they have weapons, use them as part of their slam attack.Ordinary golems cannot use weapons to attack.That's not true. If I command my golem to use weapons in a fight, then he will use weapons in a fight.
Likely not proficient in said weapons though.
Caryatid Column uses weapons, it's in the bonus bestiary, it's a construct.
Zombies and Skeletons can use weapons because it explicitly says they can: "...possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating force - a cunning that allows them to use weapons and wear armor." They don't use them particularly well, but part of their being is knowing how to use them.
Golems are different. They are constructed of lifeless material and infused with an "elemental" spirit (as per the description of the clay golem and flesh golem) to move them. Golems are essentially low-tech robots; using a weapon is completely beyond them. Since the Shield Guardian description doesn't include the addition of weapons and proficiency, and in fact is just a basic golem with the specific additional abilities, I would say they can't use them.
Caryatid Column uses weapons, it's in the bonus bestiary, it's a construct.
One, they're not golems. Two, Caryatid Columns cannot be made into Shield Guardians. Three, Caryatid Columns specifically state that they can use weapons, while no golem does.
It's the exception that proves the rule.
By default, golems and constructs can't use weapons.
However, you can always enchant them to allow this (See Carytid Columns for a RAW example).
The system doesn't place a cost on being able to use a weapon for a golem.
Personally, I'd put it down to be about the cost of enchanting a weapon to be dancing (If you can enchant a weapon to use itself, surely you can enchant a golem to use weapons the same way).
So I'd add 32K to the price of the golem and be done with it. Were it to come up in my game as the GM.
EDIT : I don't know how that jives with the price of a Carytid Column, as the Bonus Bestiary entries are not in the SRD. :( I thought they were OGL as well.
Personally, I'd put it down to be about the cost of enchanting a weapon to be dancing (If you can enchant a weapon to use itself, surely you can enchant a golem to use weapons the same way).
So I'd add 32K to the price of the golem and be done with it. Were it to come up in my game as the GM.
Makes sense to me.
EDIT : I don't know how that jives with the price of a Carytid Column, as the Bonus Bestiary entries are not in the SRD. :( I thought they were OGL as well.
They're cheap (7k gold to make), but they're pretty wimpy to start with and have no natural weapons.
Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics.Unless your character is there to give it precise blow-by-blow attack instructions ("Swing your sword waist high from left to right"), the only way a golem knows how to attack is by smashing. It doesn't know HOW to attack with a weapon. Since it doesn't know how to attack with a weapon, telling it to attack with a weapon is just going to result in it attacking as it normally would, only aiming the weapon at the target instead of its fist.
Or I could just tell the golem to thrust the pointy end of the sword into them there bad guys. Sure it will look awkward and unskilled, but that's what the non-proficiency penalty represents.
Swinging a sword or firing a bow hardly qualifies as complex strategy or tactics either.
Complex strategy/tactics will be things like guerrilla warfare, utilizing terrain effectively, attrition techniques, skirmish hit and run maneuvering, formations, etc.
Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics.Unless your character is there to give it precise blow-by-blow attack instructions ("Swing your sword waist high from left to right"), the only way a golem knows how to attack is by smashing. It doesn't know HOW to attack with a weapon. Since it doesn't know how to attack with a weapon, telling it to attack with a weapon is just going to result in it attacking as it normally would, only aiming the weapon at the target instead of its fist.Or I could just tell the golem to thrust the pointy end of the sword into them there bad guys. Sure it will look awkward and unskilled, but that's what the non-proficiency penalty represents.
Swinging a sword or firing a bow hardly qualifies as complex strategy or tactics either.
Complex strategy/tactics will be things like guerrilla warfare, utilizing terrain effectively, attrition techniques, skirmish hit and run maneuvering, formations, etc.
If your only problem with a golem using a weapon is a lack of INT why not follow the intelligent item creation rules. For a mere 500 gold during creation you can give it INT on par with a commoner. It gets better from there, you can continue with the intelligent item rules and give it blindsense 120ft. for 6000 more, fly 30ft. for 10k more or even gain an (Sp) ability 3/day for varied cost. all with the added benefit of being able to take feats and skills.
Or I could just tell the golem to thrust the pointy end of the sword into them there bad guys. Sure it will look awkward and unskilled, but that's what the non-proficiency penalty represents.
Actually, trying to use most swords as piercing weapons will result in them being improvised weapons. Only short swords and rapiers are thrusting weapons.
And if you don't think swinging a sword or shooting a bow is complex, I very strongly suggest you actually learn to use one yourself.
If your only problem with a golem using a weapon is a lack of INT why not follow the intelligent item creation rules. For a mere 500 gold during creation you can give it INT on par with a commoner. It gets better from there, you can continue with the intelligent item rules and give it blindsense 120ft. for 6000 more, fly 30ft. for 10k more or even gain an (Sp) ability 3/day for varied cost. all with the added benefit of being able to take feats and skills.
The problem with that is the golem is then sentient, and is no longer bound to follow your rules. It can get bored, wander off, smash what it's guarding, etc.
The problem with that is the golem is then sentient, and is no longer bound to follow your rules. It can get bored, wander off, smash what it's guarding, etc.
That's not such a problem. Considering that its a shield guardian type golem, it's easy enough to give it the special purpose of "protect certain creature (you)" or at the very most, it would take an ego check to give it orders.
Or I could just tell the golem to thrust the pointy end of the sword into them there bad guys. Sure it will look awkward and unskilled, but that's what the non-proficiency penalty represents.Actually, trying to use most swords as piercing weapons will result in them being improvised weapons. Only short swords and rapiers are thrusting weapons.
And if you don't think swinging a sword or shooting a bow is complex, I very strongly suggest you actually learn to use one yourself.
Swinging a sword EFFECTIVELY is complex. Simply using it is not. Again, the non-proficiency penalties cover the lot of it.
Saying golems and similar creatures with no intelligence can't use weapons AT ALL is just you making up house rules.
Saying golems and similar creatures with no intelligence can't use weapons AT ALL is just you making up house rules.
Nope. I challenge you to show me where in the rules it says that a mindless creature can use a weapon, categorically.
Skeletons are specifically called out as an exception to mindless creatures and weapons, as are caryatid columns. If a mindless creature could use a weapon normally, those exceptions would not need to be made.
The non-proficiency penalty certainly does NOT cover complete inability to use a weapon. It covers the ability to wield a weapon but not knowing how to wield it effectively.
Saying golems and similar creatures with no intelligence can't use weapons AT ALL is just you making up house rules.Nope. I challenge you to show me where in the rules it says that a mindless creature can use a weapon, categorically.
Let's turn that one around, shall we?
I challenge you to show me where in the rules it says that a mindless creature can't use a weapon, categorically.
I searched for the term "mindless" in the entire Pathfinder SRD, and did not come up with anything that specifically supports either your interpretation or my own. It's not expressly covered either way.
However, the general tone of the rules seem to indicate that if you are a creature, and you have an appendage that can wield a weapon, then you can use manufactured weapons to make attacks. Period.
However, the rules seem to indicate that if you are a creature, and you have an appendage that can wield a weapon, then you can use manufactured weapons to make attacks.
While most skeletons are mindless automatons, they still possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating force—a cunning that allows them to wield weapons and wear armor.
Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics.
While it may be sculpted to carry a stone shield or stone weapon such as a sword, these aesthetic choices do not affect its combat abilities.
I'd say that's a contraindication.
However, the rules seem to indicate that if you are a creature, and you have an appendage that can wield a weapon, then you can use manufactured weapons to make attacks.While most skeletons are mindless automatons, they still possess an evil cunning imparted to them by their animating force—a cunning that allows them to wield weapons and wear armor.Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics.While it may be sculpted to carry a stone shield or stone weapon such as a sword, these aesthetic choices do not affect its combat abilities.I'd say that's a contraindication.
I still think you are reading far too much into the "They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics" quote.
As for crafting weapon-like aesthetics into a golem, that doesn't apply to the discussion at all, as I am talking about equipping them with real weapons, not just shaping their arms to look like clubs or stone swords.
And how about the skeletons specifically stating that they are an exception to mindless creatures being unable to use weapons and armor?
And how about the skeletons specifically stating that they are an exception to mindless creatures being unable to use weapons and armor?
It looks like flavor text to me rather than a rule. If there is any exception, its that they remain proficient in their wielded weapons despite being mindless.
If you don't mind, I would like to redirect any further posts for this off-topic discussion to another thread.
In 3.5 it doubles from medium every size category if I remember correctly.
Large x2
Huge X4