Can golems lower their magic immunity?


Rules Questions


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Since a golems immunity to magic functions like infinite spell resistance, does that mean that a golem can spend a standard action to lower the resistance just like a creature with spell resistance could (such as when the golem's master orders it to, so as to be able to cast overland flight upon it)?


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This looks suspiciously familiar... why is that... oh yes, because this was already covered in another thread:

Here

In that thread we pointed out that the golem does not have spell resistance and therefore couldn't lower it if it wanted to, and indeed couldn't want to since it is mindless.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

This looks suspiciously familiar... why is that... oh yes, because this was already covered in another thread:

Here

In that thread we pointed out that the golem does not have spell resistance and therefore couldn't lower it if it wanted to, and indeed couldn't want to since it is mindless.

There was some back and forth, but the question was never really answered in full, so I thought I would try a different angle.

Golems being mindless is a moot point, as their master can still command them to do things such as to climb a tree, open a door, or lower their resistance--all things mindless creatures arguably couldn't normally do on their own.

Also, I'm hoping for game designer input. *crosses fingers*

Don't worry, I won't be posting the topic a third time. I didn't realize at first that I was basically repeating the same issue. Sorry 'bout that.


The RAW answer is NO despite any back and forth that might have occurred in the other thread.... move along....


These things happen. The main issue is the fact that the golems don't have spell resistance, they have complete immunity to magic that allows spell resistance (except for a few specific cases for each golem which are detailed out in that golem's description).

So there isn't SR to lower -- it's a complete and blanket immunity based on a feature of the golem that isn't SR.

(NP on the same topic twice, maybe next time simply asking more directly in the original thread would work though, just as a friendly idea)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Golems can't voluntarily lower their immunity to magic.


James Jacobs wrote:
Golems can't voluntarily lower their immunity to magic.

I think we need an officially authoritative answer to this question.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
The main issue is the fact that the golems don't have spell resistance, they have complete immunity to magic that allows spell resistance (except for a few specific cases for each golem which are detailed out in that golem's description).

Allow me to rephrase the question then: Can a golem lower its immunity to magic if commanded to do so by its master?

If so, would the ongoing buff spells cast upon it by its master suddenly go away once its immunity went back up again?

EDIT: Ninja'd by J.J.! Oh well, at least I have an answer.


If it helps any I would have answered the same way, it's an ability... you can't turn it off anymore than an elf can turn off their keen senses, or a dwarf can turn off its stability, or that the golem can turn off its size... it's a basic part of what the golem is.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
If it helps any I would have answered the same way, it's an ability... you can't turn it off anymore than an elf can turn off their keen senses, or a dwarf can turn off its stability, or that the golem can turn off its size... it's a basic part of what the golem is.

I could see someone arguing that, if it is supernatural in nature, than it could be willfully lowered. In fact, I was going to say something to that effect before JJ responded.


Unfortunately that doesn't work either since it's (ex) and would be akin to saying that the paladin could lower his Divine grace if he wanted (if it was (su)... which it's not).


Abraham spalding wrote:
Unfortunately that doesn't work either since it's (ex) and would be akin to saying that the paladin could lower his Divine grace if he wanted (if it was (su)... which it's not).

divine grace might not be the best example, it gives the paladin a bonus on saving throws... a paladin might not be able to chose not to gain the bonus on his saving throw, but he can always choose to fore-go making a saving throw all together by willing accepting the effect.


Ok, like a paladin turning off his immunity to fear, or disease.

Or a diviner turning off his Forewarned ability.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Ok, like a paladin turning off his immunity to fear, or disease.

Or a diviner turning off his Forewarned ability.

better examples :)


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Unfortunately that doesn't work either since it's (ex) and would be akin to saying that the paladin could lower his Divine grace if he wanted (if it was (su)... which it's not).

So it is. Still many immunities on other creatures are nevertheless supernatural in nature.


Ravingdork wrote:
Since a golems immunity to magic functions like infinite spell resistance, does that mean that a golem can spend a standard action to lower the resistance just like a creature with spell resistance could (such as when the golem's master orders it to, so as to be able to cast overland flight upon it)?

Trick question. Overland flight is a personal spell ;)

And I'd say no, they can't.

-James


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Makes it tough to run a lifespark golem, (from Advanced Bestiary, or just flesh golems in Classic Horrors Revisited,) spell-caster I wager; unless you, as a GM, are willing to bend the rules.

Personal spells don't seem to allow spell resistance, though. Or at least, they don't refer to SR in any personal spell listing.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It just occurred to me that spells such as overland flight and fire shield do not have a spell resistance listing.

Furthermore, if granted to a shield guardian, the shield guardian will be able to "cast" it upon itself despite being personal range (since it is casting it upon itself).

I think I found what I was looking for. :D


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

It just occurred to me that spells such as overland flight...

I think I found what I was looking for. :D

Right, just my conclusion. ^-^

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

It just occurred to me that spells such as overland flight and fire shield do not have a spell resistance listing.

Furthermore, if granted to a shield guardian, the shield guardian will be able to "cast" it upon itself despite being personal range (since it is casting it upon itself).

I think I found what I was looking for. :D

Like it's been pointed out. Overland Flight is a personal spell. a caster can't put it on anything or anyone else save a familliar which can share or have personal spells on it since it's an extension of the caster.

In short, if you want your golem to fly you're going to have to build in the capability by making a new golem design. Golems can't use magic items (other than by swinging them) and they can't have overland flight put on them.


RD isn't talking about casting overland flight on the golem, he is talking about using the golems spell storing ability (as a shield guardian) to have it cast overland flight on itself.

Or are you claiming that you can't put personal spells into items such as a ring of spell storing?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
cwslyclgh wrote:

RD isn't talking about casting overland flight on the golem, he is talking about using the golems spell storing ability (as a shield guardian) to have it cast overland flight on itself.

Or are you claiming that you can't put personal spells into items such as a ring of spell storing?

Shortly after posting before I realized it was a moot point in the case of overland flight. Shield guardians can only store 4th-level and lower spells, whereas overland flight is a 5th-level spell. Oh well. Still tons of other personal range spells without spell resistance that will work (which, unfortunately, means fly is out as well).


Ravingdork wrote:
cwslyclgh wrote:

RD isn't talking about casting overland flight on the golem, he is talking about using the golems spell storing ability (as a shield guardian) to have it cast overland flight on itself.

Or are you claiming that you can't put personal spells into items such as a ring of spell storing?

Shortly after posting before I realized it was a moot point in the case of overland flight. Shield guardians can only store 4th-level and lower spells, whereas overland flight is a 5th-level spell. Oh well. Still tons of other personal range spells without spell resistance that will work (which, unfortunately, means fly is out as well).

Actually cwslyclgh just presented you the answer to your problem:

Get a ring of spell storing, and put the overland flight spell into the ring. Place the ring on the golem, and tell the golem to activate the spell from the ring.

Since overland flight doesn't allow spell resistance it will take effect, and since it came from the ring the golem is a valid target.

It is expensive (the ring) but it would work.


Ravingdork wrote:
cwslyclgh wrote:

RD isn't talking about casting overland flight on the golem, he is talking about using the golems spell storing ability (as a shield guardian) to have it cast overland flight on itself.

Or are you claiming that you can't put personal spells into items such as a ring of spell storing?

Shortly after posting before I realized it was a moot point in the case of overland flight. Shield guardians can only store 4th-level and lower spells, whereas overland flight is a 5th-level spell. Oh well. Still tons of other personal range spells without spell resistance that will work (which, unfortunately, means fly is out as well).

Hmm.. perhaps you can argue that you can always overcome your own spell resistance?

I believe such was the case in 3.5, not sure in pathfinder however.

-James


You do always overcome your own spell resistance in Pathfinder. Golems don't have spell resistance, though; they have Magic Immunity, which makes any spell with an "SR: yes" line have no effect on them. It's commonly referred to as infinite SR or the like, but it is not a form of SR and thus self-casting won't bypass it.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

Actually cwslyclgh just presented you the answer to your problem:

Get a ring of spell storing, and put the overland flight spell into the ring. Place the ring on the golem, and tell the golem to activate the spell from the ring.

Since overland flight doesn't allow spell resistance it will take effect, and since it came from the ring the golem is a valid target.

It is expensive (the ring) but it would work.

I'm starting to have second thoughts about overland flight. It's based off of the fly spell, which does allow for Spell Resistance. That might explain why the spell resistance line is absent from overland flight, because it only shows the lines that are different from its predecessor spell.


Ravingdork wrote:
I'm starting to have second thoughts about overland flight. It's based off of the fly spell, which does allow for Spell Resistance. That might explain why the spell resistance line is absent from overland flight, because it only shows the lines that are different from its predecessor spell.

Going to share something with you:

Target or Targets: ...

If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells. (from the magic section under Aiming a Spell)

There you go. The spell has a target line of "You" therefore regardless of anything else it doesn't allow spell resistance therefore golems are not immune to it.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I'm starting to have second thoughts about overland flight. It's based off of the fly spell, which does allow for Spell Resistance. That might explain why the spell resistance line is absent from overland flight, because it only shows the lines that are different from its predecessor spell.

Going to share something with you:

Target or Targets: ...

If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells. (from the magic section under Aiming a Spell)

There you go. The spell has a target line of "You" therefore regardless of anything else it doesn't allow spell resistance therefore golems are not immune to it.

And the fly spell can be cast on other people, and therefore does have the spell resistance line. It's not like the Lesser/Greater type spells after all I guess.


Abraham spalding wrote:
There you go. The spell has a target line of "You" therefore regardless of anything else it doesn't allow spell resistance therefore golems are not immune to it.
Magic Immunity wrote:
A golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance

It doesn't matter if spell resistance applies or not. It matters that the spell or spell-like allows SR.


Zurai wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
There you go. The spell has a target line of "You" therefore regardless of anything else it doesn't allow spell resistance therefore golems are not immune to it.
Magic Immunity wrote:
A golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance
It doesn't matter if spell resistance applies or not. It matters that the spell or spell-like allows SR.

Sigh

Target or Targets: ...

If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells. (from the magic section under Aiming a Spell)

They are omitted because it doesn't allow SR or a Save throw. Hence the line isn't needed at all.

It doesn't apply/ isn't allowed, and the golem isn't immune to the spell. You only have to find a way to apply it to the golem. Which a ring of spell storing will let you do.


Yeah, you're right, sorry.


No problem, I didn't explain it very well the first time through.


James Jacobs wrote:
Golems can't voluntarily lower their immunity to magic.

What about Awakened Golems?

Can an Awakened Golem become a spellcaster? ;)


No they cant.
Magic Immunity is not another version of SR.


This may or may not be helpful because I don't have too much time to research, but

creating new races wrote:
Unless stated otherwise, all racial traits are extraordinary abilities

And then there is a whole section on constructs and subraces. There might be something there.


Not sure if there is any way to suppress an extraordinary ability, but that's the shtick.


Koi Eokei wrote:
Not sure if there is any way to suppress an extraordinary ability, but that's the shtick.

There is not default rule that any trait extraordinary or magical can be suppressed. As an example undead cant choose to fail a fort save against poison or be subject to enchantment spells. They are flat out immune to both. Creatures with magical DR can't just turn it off and allow a normal dagger to bypass it.


Yeah. I looked into it before when I wanted my group to have a role play encounter with an ancient black dragon. But ran into issues with the aura. I wanted her to be hidden before she revealed herself, but the aura kept giving me issues. Says its a free action, but its extraordinary, so I couldn't find a rule to lower or suppress it, make her not so terrifying, let the party get close enough to chat, not be detected simply by being. Didn't work out so well, ended up sending an emissary which was very lackluster.


Isn't a dragon's aura only activated when making an attack, using a breath weapon, etc.?
At least in 3.5 dragons only had their fear aura activated when they did something terrifying instead of it being always active.
I might have changed in PF but I wasn't aware of it.


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UMR wrote:
Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken.

Looks like the aura is only active for the duration of the action triggering it.


So if a dragon charges and rips your comrade to shreds and forgets to use the free action required to activate its aura, "eh, that was nuts, but we should be fine guys, I'm not worried."
Extraordinary abilities are always on. That's how they work.

The OP wanted to know if his golem can drop his immunity to magic as if it were SR. It's not. Rules say its a racial trait. Racial traits are extraordinary abilities unless otherwise stated.

I'm sure he found a solution to his problem. I'm flexible, the game goes on. But my own quest: I'm looking for a workaround.


Koi Eokei wrote:

So if a dragon charges and rips your comrade to shreds and forgets to use the free action required to activate its aura, "eh, that was nuts, but we should be fine guys, I'm not worried."

Extraordinary abilities are always on. That's how they work.

With the exception that, like dragonhunterq linked, it is stated that it works only as part of an attack.

You'll probably still be scared but not supernaturally scared, that's the difference.


I should have quoted, sorry. I was replying to Kileanna's post about Draconic auras specifically, rather than making a general point.

Koi Eokoi wrote:
Extraordinary abilities are always on. That's how they work.

Not all (Ex) abilities are always on - some are triggered by another action, or require you to actively do something (like Grab for instance), or require activation...

It is worth noting that 'usually' is not limiting language. In theory you could activate it at other times - A dragon raising it's head and simply asking "hello, are you breakfast?" while activating the aura for a scary greeting.

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