Unchained Summoner Changes

[Lord Twitchiopolis]

Christopher Dudley wrote:

Azten wrote:

Scythia wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

I feel like i must have been the only person who NEVER considered eidolons to be normal outsiders that for some reason attached themselves to some person.

I mean the iconic's story and the summoners fluff made them feel like a special outsider that couldn't maintain a form without someones help.

You're not the only one.

I thought it made sense that the eidolon was an extension of the Summoner's will given form. That's why it was shaped completely by their decision.

I will third this notion. Now alignment shifts just make the extension of your on will disappear, instead of changing to match.*

*If the Unchained version is used. Sorry, PFS players, more restrictions for you...

Fourthed. One of my summoner concepts involves a pre-existing outsider. The other is a divinely bestowed alternate form.

Late to the party, as it just arrived last night. Glad to finally have my copy of "Pathfinder Unchained (except for summoner, which is shackled)".

I'm OK with the spell list changes, for the most part. I'm willing to try it with the reduced the number of evolution points. Why I'm throwing out the Unchained summoner is subytypes. It went from "The eidolon takes whatever form the summoner desires" to "The eidolon takes one of a small set of forms that we imagine with restrictions." And I realize that the subtypes grant specific bonuses at particular levels, which makes up for some lost evolution points with... things that were evolutions. I'm reminded of some SKR advice for archetype design. 4) Limiting an existing class ability to one already-available choice isn't cool, nor is it a limitation.

Admittedly, I haven't put in effort, but glancing at the list, didn't see anything that my synthesist character...

Fifthed?

My summoner concept for Legacy of Fire was a Summoner/Cavalier who would eventually ride his eidolon instead of his horse, this eidolon being a equestrian quadruped with the front limbs and head of a rooster, a glorious peacock tail, and three scorpion-like tails with stingers underneath his plumage. I envisioned the eidolon as either true neutral or Lawful Neutral, more prideful than anything else. How would such a concept with an Inevitable or a Psychopomp?

[Kalindlara]

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

My beef with Unchained Summoner is that the eidolon outsider types seem to be a helter-skelter cherry pick with no rhyme nor reason to the type.

It's not a "one of each alignment" set nor a "only outsider types from Beastiary 1." It's "a little this, a little that" that doesn't cover all outsider races.

Want to make a kyton or oni based eidolon? Aeon? Well, you're SOL...

To be fair, the omission of oni was likely intentional, as they're native outsiders. I'd have loved a rakshasa eidolon, for the record. :)

The absence of kyton torments me, though. Just the thought of a shackleborn tiefling summoner... shivers with excitement

[QuidEst]

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

My beef with Unchained Summoner is that the eidolon outsider types seem to be a helter-skelter cherry pick with no rhyme nor reason to the type.

It's not a "one of each alignment" set nor a "only outsider types from Beastiary 1." It's "a little this, a little that" that doesn't cover all outsider races.

Want to make a kyton or oni based eidolon? Aeon? Well, you're SOL...

It is the main outsider of each alignment, plus one extra good, neutral, and evil type. Div is "any evil", making it more flexible than Kyton, useable by six alignments instead of three.

[Mechagamera]

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:

Mechagamera wrote:

A player makes an unchained summoner with an Azata eidolon. He/she asks the GM if the eidolon can look like an animated suit of armor with no mechanical difference. GM says "of course." Problem solved.

Of course, you could use an Inevitable eidolon.

Or, more likely, the GM says "That doesn't sound much like an Azata to me, why don't you use a subtype that seems to match your concept better?", and then the player says "because in order to get proficiency weapon, I would have to either spend a precious Eidolon feat on weapon proficiency, or else spend a precious evolution point for the concept to really work", to which the GM will think "This sounds like a player who is trying to cheese the system for some mechanical advantage I can't quite put my finger on, so I'll stand my ground about using a different subtype for that concept and if the player won't accept my compromise, that proves it wasn't about the concept, but only the mechanics."

I have to ask what you did to make your GM distrust you so much.

[Mechagamera]

I would like there to be a few more outsider types, though. I think the problem is that they were going for equal number of good, evil, and neutral types, and for good, we are getting down to the minor ones after what was provided. Still, a foo animal eidolon would work......

[FLite]

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

My beef with Unchained Summoner is that the eidolon outsider types seem to be a helter-skelter cherry pick with no rhyme nor reason to the type.

It's not a "one of each alignment" set nor a "only outsider types from Beastiary 1." It's "a little this, a little that" that doesn't cover all outsider races.

Want to make a kyton or oni based eidolon? Aeon? Well, you're SOL...

Well, they do need to save something for the next book...

More seriously, there are how many different outsider races? I am a little surprised that they don't seem to have done one from each plane, but there was never a chance they were going to fit everything in there.

[Kalindlara]

FLite wrote:

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

My beef with Unchained Summoner is that the eidolon outsider types seem to be a helter-skelter cherry pick with no rhyme nor reason to the type.

It's not a "one of each alignment" set nor a "only outsider types from Beastiary 1." It's "a little this, a little that" that doesn't cover all outsider races.

Want to make a kyton or oni based eidolon? Aeon? Well, you're SOL...

Well, they do need to save something for the next book...

More seriously, there are how many different outsider races? I am a little surprised that they don't seem to have done one from each plane, but there was never a chance they were going to fit everything in there.

I think they nearly did. Excepting the Material Plane, obviously. :)

Remember that we no longer have the Great Wheel. Only nine major planes exist, one for each alignment... plus the four elemental planes... plus the Positive/Negative/Ethereal/Shadow.

We got the nine and the four. Pos/Neg are arguably way too obscure. The Ethereal is the spiritualist's domain. That leaves Shadow.

So, clearly, we need kytons. :)

[FLite]

Lets see...

Material: irrelevant
Positive / Negative: Do we even have denizens for them?
Shadow: Missing
Astral: Missing
Ethereal: Spiritualist
Elemental: Done
Outer Planes: Done
Other Planes: Missing

So that gives us Shadow, Astral, The Dead Vault(not likely, you shouldn't be able to summon from a prison plane, or what is the point), Dream, Time (probably not), The Immortal Ambulatory (If you want draconic, thats probably where you will get them), Leng (there are your cthonic horrors.) Plus possible positive and negative. Plus any additional subtypes from the other planes they want to throw in.

Oh, and First world, which may need a rewrite for the First World summoner, not sure how that interacts with subtypes.

[Kalindlara]

FLite wrote:

Lets see...

Material: irrelevant
Positive / Negative: Do we even have denizens for them?
Shadow: Missing
Astral: Missing
Ethereal: Spiritualist
Elemental: Done
Outer Planes: Done
Other Planes: Missing

So that gives us Shadow, Astral, The Dead Vault(not likely, you shouldn't be able to summon from a prison plane, or what is the point), Dream, Time (probably not), The Immortal Ambulatory (If you want draconic, thats probably where you will get them), Leng (there are your cthonic horrors.) Plus possible positive and negative. Plus any additional subtypes from the other planes they want to throw in.

Oh, and First world, which may need a rewrite for the First World summoner, not sure how that interacts with subtypes.

I forgot the Astral. :)

For Pos/Neg, we have the jyoti and the sceaduinar.

The various demiplanes probably wouldn't get anything specific. Plus, this is technically a world-neutral product. :)

There are extraplanar-specific fey - the lurker in light comes to mind.

[FLite]

Kalindlara wrote:

The various demiplanes probably wouldn't get anything specific. Plus, this is technically a world-neutral product. :)

There are extraplanar-specific fey - the lurker in light comes to mind.

Unchained may be world neutral, but that doesn't mean they can't put subtypes in world specific splat books. Besides, Psychopomps are only sort of world nuetral, in that you would need to file the boneyard off them to use them anywhere else...

[FLite]

Sigh. Wrong thread

[Albatoonoe]

Personally, I want a Nightshade subtype...

[Kalindlara]

FLite wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

The various demiplanes probably wouldn't get anything specific. Plus, this is technically a world-neutral product. :)

There are extraplanar-specific fey - the lurker in light comes to mind.

Unchained may be world neutral, but that doesn't mean they can't put subtypes in world specific splat books. Besides, Psychopomps are only sort of world nuetral, in that you would need to file the boneyard off them to use them anywhere else...

I was surprised to see them in Bestiary 4. They were refluffed as "servants of the gods of death".

And I would love to see more subtypes.

[Ashram]

Kalindlara wrote:

FLite wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

The various demiplanes probably wouldn't get anything specific. Plus, this is technically a world-neutral product. :)

There are extraplanar-specific fey - the lurker in light comes to mind.

Unchained may be world neutral, but that doesn't mean they can't put subtypes in world specific splat books. Besides, Psychopomps are only sort of world nuetral, in that you would need to file the boneyard off them to use them anywhere else...

I was surprised to see them in Bestiary 4. They were refluffed as "servants of the gods of death".

And I would love to see more subtypes.

I can understand why they replaced aeons, since the setting devs (I believe mainly James Jacobs) weren't happy with them. Considering in their write-up, they could basically turn hostile in the blink of an eye and work towards completely inscrutable goals, they were hard to quantify as friend or foe most of the time.

Doesn't mean I can't still like them and dislike psychopomps for basically becoming ascended canon.

[Kalindlara]

They can't hate aeons too much, as they're still popping up in APs. More often than psychopomps, in fact. :)

[Dekalinder]

Besides, is not like the psychopomp idea is any new

[John Pryor]

Hi. Coming in a little late, but I've actually read the Summoner in Unchained. The previous poster made what I think is a key point, and it's being shrugged off. It is true, I believe, that most summoners design their Eidolons as beatstick damage dealers. And the fixes in Unchained are designed to bring those back into line. I can understand the reasoning behind that. Some of us, though, went other routes. There is advice on the web that I followed to make my eidolon more or less a rogue/scout. (Tracking, scent,... things like that). For fighting I drop the eidolon and use summon monster SLA. It has been a LOT of fun to play. After reading Unchained Summoner a couple of times, my conclusion is that it doesn't look like fun. All the eidolons are pretty much the same and they are all slanted toward combat. There are some slight differences in resistances, but otherwise pretty much the same. Oh, and there are mandatory alignments, which FURTHER restricts the eidolon you can have. To those who are saying you don't have to use Unchained rules, that's true for a home game, but not for Society play. My understanding is that you have to use the Unchained version in Society, except for those Summoners that are grandfathered in. So, the poster who said that the designers are forcing us into one vision of the eidolon is, in my opinion, correct. I understand the desire to not have summoners be overpowered and that's not unreasonable. But let's also remember that classes are supposed to be fun to play. If all eidolons are essentially the same, I don't think much of anybody will play them. Too boring. If eidolons are going to be outsiders, let's have some options for INT build, CHA build, WIS build, DEX build. Just my 2 cents worth.

[FLite]

Can you post your current build? I would like to see how it would be different under unchained.

Because scout builds should be among those least affected by the changes, other than that their skill points are more in line with other classes.

For example, a 10th level rogue with 14 INT has 100 skill ranks.

assuming we treat "skilled" as +8 skill points:

a 10th level APG eidolon with one stat increase in INT can have 160+ easily,

a 10th level unchained eidolon with one stat increase in INT can have 104+ easily,

(Also the eidolon can get an effective +2 to all skills, because he has a built in aid anouther buddy. Or for that matter, play a halfling, with the helpful racial trait, put your +4 int head band on the eidolon, make sure you have a couple points in every skill it has and use your FCB to give your eidolon an extra skill point each level.

The eidolon now has 130 skill points, and gets +4 on all skills that can benefit from aid anouther.

There is not much out there that can match that.

[FLite]

As far as scouting:

A bunch of the sub types get fly for free.

Earth Elemental gets Burrow for free, making them superlative scouts.

A little out side the range for PFS, but psychopomps get spirit sight for free at level 12, and invisibility (self) at will at 16.

It's not that we are shrugging of the point. It is that the omniskill eidolon who does all skills better than anyone else is just as much a problem (in a different way) than the omnikill eidolon, and the changes in subtypes, in personality alone, if not in mechanics, make different creatures better for different tasks.

[John Pryor]

Well, I haven't tried re-speccing yet, but here's my existing build for a Level 5 scout style Eidolon:

Alignment LN

Serpentine, Small, Climb, Tail, Tail Slap (1d4), Bite (1d4), Reach (Bite)
Skilled Stealth, Skilled Perception, Scent, Limbs(Arms), Skilled Disable Device.

Feats: Alertness, Uncanny Alertness
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11

Attack +5, Fort +2, Reflex +9, Will +4, AC 22, Init +5, HP 26

Skills:
Disable Device, 4 ranks, +19
Perception, 4 ranks, +18
Sense Motive, 2 Ranks, +8
Stealth, 4 ranks, +24
Survival, 2 ranks, +10

Obviously, not spec'd for combat. Great for scouting, though and for tracking. Summoner is Human, with Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, and Improved Initiative. I bought a small sized MW Thieve's tools and carry it for Eidolon to use

I haven't tried re-spec'ing. Hmmm... Maybe not as bad as it first appeared:
On a quick read, I see that I could have 4 evolutions in Unchained, and 16 Skills, so I could retain the 3 Skilled evolutions and scent. I could have the same skill ranks.

If I'm reading correctly, then, we would have Base stats of
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11. Because of Level bonus, add +2 to Str and Dex. Good Fort save and Will save, Poor Ref save (for a scout?).

So I guess the big difference is in ability scores for my build. 20 Dex vs 14. Also biped vs Serpentine

Eidolon has to have be within 1 step of alignment of summoner.

[Deadmanwalking]

Elementals can be serpentine, and an air elemental could be an excellent scout, and would very much be available to a LN guy.

[John Pryor]

FLite, good points. Some of the abilities you refer to kick in at lvl 12 or higher. Since I am a Society player capped at lvl 12, lvl 12 and higher is of little interest to me personally. But it's still a fair point.

[FLite]

I admit my one disappointment is that they haven't released enough outsiders. I'm hoping some of the upcoming books will fix that. Also, your dex is 16, not 14 (assuming you stay size small)

I assume you are Lawful Good? (It's too bad you aren't nuetral good, you could have a serpentine Azata with arms for free and lose nothing but a bite you aren't using anyway, and in 3 levels get flight for free.) If you are lawful nuetral you could get a Nuetral earth elemental, and get serpentine. It would put you back two skill evolutions, but you would get burrow in 3 levels.

You could go Agathion Quadruped and only drop your dex 2 points, again you would have to drop 2 skilleds to keep arms, but you could get one back by switching out your improved initiative for extra evo.

[Mechagamera]

Isn't N within 1 step of LN? If so, a psychocomp is a good choice for a snakey sneaky eidolon.

[John Pryor]

My existing character is LN. Some good suggestions. Ok, I'll withdraw my initial criticisms and wait to see how things go. Thanks!

I appreciate the discussion and the chance to work through a build, new vs old.