The effect of Wall of Force on Summon Monster...

[Ben Wilder]

Does Wall of Force block Summon Monster spells, or can you summon the creatures in on the other side?? I couldn't find a thread devoted to the subject on the forums, and I was unsure after reading the spell description in the Core Rulebook. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Todd Morgan]

Ben Wilder wrote:

Does Wall of Force block Summon Monster spells, or can you summon the creatures in on the other side?? I couldn't find a thread devoted to the subject on the forums, and I was unsure after reading the spell description in the Core Rulebook. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can dimension door and teleport past it, I think you should be able to summon past it, as they seem to be similar effects.

[Ben Wilder]

Thats kind of what i was thinking, but Teleport and Dimension Door are conjuration (teleportation) effects and Summon Monster is a conjuration (summoning) effect. To me, it's pretty much the same thing, since you are essentially just teleporting the creature from it's home plane to a designated location within your own. But...I'd really like to know what the official ruling is, to clear up whatever gray area lies between the two types of effects.

[cwslyclgh]

PRD wrote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

Wall of Force blocks line of effect.

[0gre]

This line:
"Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. "

Is pretty clear that any spells other than travel spells are blocked.

I know summoning monsters is also conjuration but there are a lot of spells that are conjuration. I don't see any reason there should be an exception.

[Carpjay]

0gre wrote:

Is pretty clear that any spells other than travel spells are blocked.

I know summoning monsters is also conjuration but there are a lot of spells that are conjuration. I don't see any reason there should be an exception.

I agree. Teleportation is itself a Conjuration spell, but I do think the "similar" spells bypassed are all those that remove you from one point in space and place you in another...you are not actually traveling a line of effect, in other words, you are disappearing at one POINT of effect and reappearing in another.

At first I was leaning towards allowing summoning to bypass, as well, thinking that,hey, caster is at one point, the summoned creature is at the other point, no real line of effect. But would I then allow a mage to call forth, say, a flaming sphere using the same loophole, and place it beyond the wall? No, I would not, and the summoned creature bypassing it would be the same, just a creature carrying out orders rather than a sphere of energy directed by you (granted, that is a stronger line of effect with the caster-required control, but...).

This is mostly off the cuff, however, not claiming any thorough research other than reading the generic Summoning description the SRD Magic section, which does not say much to help either way.

[0gre]

Carpjay wrote:

0gre wrote:

Is pretty clear that any spells other than travel spells are blocked.

I know summoning monsters is also conjuration but there are a lot of spells that are conjuration. I don't see any reason there should be an exception.

I agree. Teleportation is itself a Conjuration spell, but I do think the "similar" spells bypassed are all those that remove you from one point in space and place you in another...you are not actually traveling a line of effect, in other words, you are disappearing at one POINT of effect and reappearing in another.

At first I was leaning towards allowing summoning to bypass, as well, thinking that,hey, caster is at one point, the summoned creature is at the other point, no real line of effect. But would I then allow a mage to call forth, say, a flaming sphere using the same loophole, and place it beyond the wall? No, I would not, and the summoned creature bypassing it would be the same, just a creature carrying out orders rather than a sphere of energy directed by you (granted, that is a stronger line of effect with the caster-required control, but...).

This is mostly off the cuff, however, not claiming any thorough research other than reading the generic Summoning description the SRD Magic section, which does not say much to help either way.

Except summoning doesn't teleport you, it opens a planar gate and pulls you from another plane. You also cannot summon into a room you can't see into but you can teleport or dimension door into it.

Essentially if you let summoning in you are opening the door for almost any other type of spell as well. Stinking cloud, grease...

[Sean Terrill]

simply put, conjure doesn't work. D.Door and teleport do because they are effecting you rather than the space outside, as someone has already put out there, line of effect blocks all spells unless the spell directly says otherwise.

[Troubleshooter]

Alternately, one could argue that line of effect is drawn through to the astral plane, across it, and back through to the material plane. The wall is not in the line of effect.

[Keiger]

Troubleshooter wrote:

Alternately, one could argue that line of effect is drawn through to the astral plane, across it, and back through to the material plane. The wall is not in the line of effect.

Wall of FORCE affects all overlapping planes, as does every force effect.

[Mojorat]

You know this was a 3 year old thread right? Anyhow wall of force blocks line of effect. A glass window stops line of efffect. The reason teleport and dime sionsl door work is the movement for these spells is an effect of the spell. The target line for these spells is creature touched.

[Nipin]

Wall of Force is a wall with no roof. As such, the line of effect merely extends over the wall and to the target (like an archer would shoot over the wall). If the caster is making a dome, then the caster simply needs to leave a small opening (1-2 inches is more than enough) in the dome for creating line of effect. Since spells are magically guided it really doesn't matter where the hole is located.

[seebs]

Nipin wrote:

Wall of Force is a wall with no roof. As such, the line of effect merely extends over the wall and to the target (like an archer would shoot over the wall). If the caster is making a dome, then the caster simply needs to leave a small opening (1-2 inches is more than enough) in the dome for creating line of effect. Since spells are magically guided it really doesn't matter where the hole is located.

This has three essential claims:

1. The line of effect can go around an obstacle as long as there's a way past it.
2. An opening only needs to be 1-2 inches across.
3. A caster can leave a small hole in a wall of force.

Let's get the first two first.

PRD wrote:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

And let's look at Wall of Force for the third one:

PRD wrote:

The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.

So, no small holes.

[Claxon]

A seebs pointed out Nipin, you are wrong on all accounts.

[seebs]

Actually, there's another claim ("a wall with no roof") which seems to be correct, at least for the actual 5th level spell "wall of force". I hadn't thought about that, but it's another claim, so it's not all counts, just three out of four.

[Nipin]

Summon the creature using a line of effect which extends above the wall.

I am fine with using the raw that the hole must be at least 1 square foot, and the wall of force must be continuous and unbroken. However, you could still leave a hole in the roof of your dome. The hole would just need to be larger than I had expected.

[blahpers]

Nipin wrote:

Summon the creature using a line of effect which extends above the wall.

I am fine with using the raw that the hole must be at least 1 square foot, and the wall of force must be continuous and unbroken. However, you could still leave a hole in the roof of your dome. The hole would just need to be larger than I had expected.

A summoned creature must be summoned on a surface which can support it. How will this work with your method? Summon it on top of the wall?

As for the dome: How are you making a dome exactly? The spell doesn't allow for that.

[seebs]

Nipin wrote:

Summon the creature using a line of effect which extends above the wall.

That means the creature has to be above the wall. The line of effect can't curve over the wall. The phrase "like an archer would shoot over the wall" is not compatible with the rules.

And the summon has to be on a surface which can support it.

Quote:

I am fine with using the raw that the hole must be at least 1 square foot, and the wall of force must be continuous and unbroken. However, you could still leave a hole in the roof of your dome. The hole would just need to be larger than I had expected.

So far as I can tell, you don't even have a choice as to whether or not your wall has a roof, because the wall of force is only vertical. I am not sure whether that's intentional.

Point is, if the wall is near you, then the only places you can aim your summon are pretty close to straight up, and you need to be able to get line of effect to the location you want your creature at, and the creature can't be summoned somewhere that it would fall.

[Claxon]

Nipin wrote:

Summon the creature using a line of effect which extends above the wall.

I am fine with using the raw that the hole must be at least 1 square foot, and the wall of force must be continuous and unbroken. However, you could still leave a hole in the roof of your dome. The hole would just need to be larger than I had expected.

The line of effect is a striaght line, it cannot curve. And you cannot summon creatures into a square that does not support them. For instance, terrestrial creatures cannot be summoned in the air or in water. So, the only creatures you would be able to summon with a line of effect that extends over and above the wall would be flying creatures. Which would then need to fly down from the square they are summoned in, to attack people on the ground.