You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extra-dimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.
As I read it, true seeing CAN NOT detect a character using Hide in Plain Sight, even when HiPS is a supernatural ability?
Also, true seeing states that it allows one to see invisible creatures and objects "normally". How does that interact with the invisible stalker, who is "normally" Naturally Invisible (Ex) and seems to have no visible form? Normally, an invisible stalker can't be seen, so it remains undetectable?
Finally, is a scrying sensor an "invisible object", meaning that true seeing will detect it?
If these questions are answerable by RAW, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that subject first. If not, what do you think the RAI is here?
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As I read it, true seeing CAN NOT detect a character using Hide in Plain Sight, even when HiPS is a supernatural ability?
Also, true seeing states that it allows one to see invisible creatures and objects "normally". How does that interact with the invisible stalker, who is "normally" Naturally Invisible (Ex) and seems to have no visible form? Normally, an invisible stalker can't be seen, so it remains undetectable?
Finally, is a scrying sensor an "invisible object", meaning that true seeing will detect it?
If these questions are answerable by RAW, I'd like to hear your thoughts on that subject first. If not, what do you think the RAI is here?
No books in front of me, so no page referrences, but I'm not leting that stop me!
1) True Seeing won't even get through a bad Groucho Marx disguise. Nor will it help you spot the sniper in a camo suit. I'm going to just assume that the supernatural part of Hide in Plain Sight is just the distraction part of the ability, the Jedi-mind-trick that gets the targets to look off for a second. The actual hiding part is all skill.
2)I remember looking up this one specifically for an encounter I ran with an Invisible Stalker back in 3.5. See Invisible gets you nothing, but True Seeing gets a fuzzy outline. You can target normally, but you don't see "what it really looks like" because that IS what it really looks like.
3) Yep, the scrying sensor is an invisible object/point in space, and it can be noticed with a perception check, seen with See Invisibility and True Seeing.
For what it's worth...
You should be able to see what an Invisible Stalker looks like with True Seeing, but since looking at one through True Seeing is more the exception than the rule, there really isn't any description of what it actually looks like. They arn't non-existent, they are just always invisible.
Oh yeah, it may not look like anything in particular, but you can see it.
Please note that mind blank prevents true seeing from working too, so if the person using invisibility/what not has mind blank you simply won't see them either.
there are actually a fair number of threads that deal with how HiPS works (see link above and links within that thread). a lot of the discussion deals with whether the (Su) versions (e.g. Shadowdancer and Assassin) actually require the concealment provided by shadow/dim illumination, or if proximity to this type of lighting triggers some other supernatural event that allows hiding. If the former, then true seeing and blindsense/sight (and possibly darkvision) should defeat it. This is my personal reading, although for balance reasons, I don't think that darkvision should.
given the number of threads and amount of discussion back and forth, I don't think there is enough in RAW to put this to bed. I think the main problem is how vague the HiPS description is.
If you have the (very) old D&D choose-yourown-adventure books, they actually show a picture of an invisible stalker becoming visible. Although of human size, they're mostly humanoid, with an overlarge bulbous nose...and four lower legs in equidistant fashion, not a centaur.
True Seeing sees through darkness, which would include shadows. So, for someone to Hide, they'd have to have some other form of concealment available. Likewise, you can't normally hide from Darkvision or other non-standard senses, at least without the Darkstalker feat.
===Aelryinth
True Seeing sees through darkness, which would include shadows. So, for someone to Hide, they'd have to have some other form of concealment available. Likewise, you can't normally hide from Darkvision or other non-standard senses, at least without the Darkstalker feat.===Aelryinth
Seeing through the shadows doesn't make them go away. It's called "Hide in Plain Sight" for a reason.
Seeing through the shadows doesn't make them go away. It's called "Hide in Plain Sight" for a reason.
But what do those shadows do? If they provide concealment at a range, true seeing (or darkvision) negates the ability. If it is illusory camouflage, then darkvision shouldn't negate, but true seeing should. If some other thing, then stealth should be usable against true seeing, darkvision, blindsense/blindsight, tremorsense, scent or any other unusual sense.
shadowdancer and assassin (note shadowdancer is supposed to read like assassin).
Hide in plain sight (Su)
At 8th level, an assassin can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
stealth skill:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
So the implication here is that concealment and stealth go hand in hand. HiPS is an exception to this, but why? Is it because it grants concealment when none exists, or fool the senses of the observer, or something else?
"You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are."
This is the first line of the True Seeing description. The emphasis is on allowing the caster to see things that something (darkness, magic, illusion) does not allow you to see, as in, the light rays that could be hitting your eyes with the true image are somehow being altered or stopped.
For this reason, someone in disguise or hiding naturally by camouflage still hides from you...the image you are seeing is "as they actually are," the "hiding" happens because your brain needs to work really hard to find Elmo.
I agree 100% that true seeing would do nothing against mundane stealth skill, or the ranger's (Ex) camouflage or HiPS abilities.
the unfortunate thing is that it is entirely possible that the (Su) versions of HiPS are, in fact either darkness and/or illusion effects. Or it could be a mind-affecting enchantment type effect (distraction, etc.). or it could be something else entirely.
Unless something is specifically listed as an darkness, illusion, or mind-affecting effect it is not one of these things.
In order to be part of a group like this the power/spell/ability/whatever in question has to be directly labeled as such.
Unless something is specifically listed as an darkness, illusion, or mind-affecting effect it is not one of these things.
In order to be part of a group like this the power/spell/ability/whatever in question has to be directly labeled as such.
Good point! you are absolutely correct that it doesn’t have those descriptors.
This is kind of what I was getting at, that it may be an omission. Certainly, not all (Su) abilities are detailed completely. For example, Wholeness of body is not listed as a conjuration (healing) effect, although it presumably is, or Quivering palm is presumably a death effect, but isn’t listed as such, etc.
The reason that I resist the RAW interpretation, is that it has the implication that HiPS should be effective against unusual senses, like blindsense, blindsight, scent or tremorsense. Why, because it doesn’t say that it is restricted to visual perception. RAI, I doubt this is what is intended, which is why I think that the description is just not complete.
Also, the fluff suggests it has a visual basis as it relies on lighting.
Unless something is specifically listed as an darkness, illusion, or mind-affecting effect it is not one of these things.
In order to be part of a group like this the power/spell/ability/whatever in question has to be directly labeled as such.
Good point! you are absolutely correct that it doesn’t have those descriptors.
This is kind of what I was getting at, that it may be an omission. Certainly, not all (Su) abilities are detailed completely. For example, Wholeness of body is not listed as a conjuration (healing) effect, although it presumably is, or Quivering palm is presumably a death effect, but isn’t listed as such, etc.
The reason that I resist the RAW interpretation, is that it has the implication that HiPS should be effective against unusual senses, like blindsense, blindsight, scent or tremorsense. Why, because it doesn’t say that it is restricted to visual perception. RAI, I doubt this is what is intended, which is why I think that the description is just not complete.
Also, the fluff suggests it has a visual basis as it relies on lighting.
Actually no, Wholeness of body is specifically not a conjuration(healing) effect. conjuration(healing) only applies to spells and spell-like abilities (since spell like abilities are spell like).
Supernatural abilities are abilities that are on their own. They aren't spells and don't function in the same ways that spells do, they act outside the rules of magic as it is known unless specifically stated otherwise. Schools of magic and the like only apply to spells (and to some extent spell like abilities).
It's not an omission but the fact that it doesn't work like anything else.
The description is complete because these abilities don't work like anything else.
Actually no, Wholeness of body is specifically not a conjuration(healing) effect. conjuration(healing) only applies to spells and spell-like abilities (since spell like abilities are spell like).Supernatural abilities are abilities that are on their own. They aren't spells and don't function in the same ways that spells do, they act outside the rules of magic as it is known unless specifically stated otherwise. Schools of magic and the like only apply to spells (and to some extent spell like abilities).
It's not an omission but the fact that it doesn't work like anything else.
The description is complete because these abilities don't work like anything else.
hmm OK, another good point about (Su) and schools of magic.
what about Quivering palm, not a death effect?so, do you then think HiPS should work against unusual senses as well?
I would say that HiPS should work against visual senses... blindsense and blindsight have some specific stuff in them about how they work with the stealth skill so I would rely on that for those abilities.
My thought is that HiPS simply gives you the ability to hide when normally you wouldn't be able to -- you are still hiding though which is a mundane activity.
True Seeing doesn't take away the shadows, or dim light which is the trigger for HiPS... not the fact the other person can see into it.
Again I put it at the "(SU) doesn't work like other things" point.
I would say that HiPS should work against visual senses... blindsense and blindsight have some specific stuff in them about how they work with the stealth skill so I would rely on that for those abilities.
My thought is that HiPS simply gives you the ability to hide when normally you wouldn't be able to -- you are still hiding though which is a mundane activity.
True Seeing doesn't take away the shadows, or dim light which is the trigger for HiPS... not the fact the other person can see into it.
Again I put it at the "(SU) doesn't work like other things" point.
sounds like a reasonable interpretation, thanks for satisfying my curiosity.
I hope you will forgive me for preferring my own :-)I suppose that I want supernatural abilities to fit within the framework of other magical effects and to be consistent with the fluff, but I can appreciate the strict RAW interpretation.
I still think that it is a matter of piecing together an incomplete puzzle. I would love to have a more complete description of the HiPS ability (even if it is just fluff) so that it is easier to adjudicate interactions like this (true seeing, unusual senses). Unusual senses especially are bound to come up in play.
I think there is plenty of room for multiple interpretations here honestly, and an argument on what each part does comes down to a hierarchy of priority... the problem is the game gives us no means to rank a hierarchy especially since so many spells of lower level counter higher level spells, and visa versa...
In the end as long as everyone at the table understands how the rules are going to be applied and can agree to abide by that it doesn't really matter IMO.
Yeah thread necro but this seemed as good a place as any.
Essentially, ethereal jaunt vs true seeing.
Now I know see invisible sees ethereal creatures and that with true seeing you can focus on the ethereal plane.
Therefore my question without focusing does a creature with true seeing detect someone using ethereal jaunt?
I think no.