I did a from-the-grounds-up homebrew for about 5 years, and enjoyed it, but it burned me out. I'm running a Forgotten Realms campaign now, though, and I'll tell you, I'll never do a 100% original homebrew again. I have to do far less prepwork now, I don't have to create maps and NPCs all the time, and I have the luxury of disregarding or downplaying what I dislike. In the end, it essentially becomes my take on the FR. It helps that there's only one guy at the table who's a true Realms fan, and he doesn't mind my changes. I've been throwing in published stuff like cities and organizations from other sources to keep things fresh for him too. We're having a good time with it, so it's working well in my eyes.
OK folk I want to put out a warming on my post: The opinions presented here are from an unapologetic rules lawyering munchkin.
I am not a fan of home-brews.
I am useing the Forgotten Realms as my prime example.
My DM does not like to do a whole lot of work on a campaign he's stricktly a module junkie, so a player like me that has devoured all the information possible on everything from the gods,politics,important heroes and figures to coats of arms for the civilized nations is invaluable.
Yes, I will admit it I am "that guy"
With a homebrew everything is left to the whim of the dm with the players haveing no leg to stand on as far as but continuity.
Prime example a buddy of mine was running a home brew and I found a way to make his system really work for me and give my little gnome necromancer darn near unlimited power,all within his rules set.
He didnt like that so with no warning he changed the way magic works in his game, he didnt like the fact I was playing an evil gnome(they should all be happy hobbit like folk) and placed an alignment restriction on all non-human races. Shortly there after the game broke up because he'd done too many people like that.
The above example is my most extreme example of why home brews don't work, with out published continuity the players have no way to address grevances.
The first home brew I played in was great because the DM let us as players have some limited imput as to his world, I.E. My druid is from forestX so he created forest X, the fighter was a noble woman from the duchey of Y and so forth we got to help with the world and that made alot of diffrence.
Published worlds have been play tested and the bugs knocked out, you can still make them your own but it gives the players familiarity and more of a sense of involvment in the overall campaign if everyoone knows a little something about whats going on.
Depending on the playstyle of the group, I think the "incompleteness" of a homebrew setting is one of the most intriguing aspects. Honestly, how accurate were our maps of earth before the advent of technology? Everything was roughly done by hand, for centuries.
There's a mix of both fear and excitement, not knowing what lies beyond that mountain range. Anything could happen. There's a unique level of fun(at least for me and my groups) when the DM and the players work together during the course of the game to create the setting. It becomes less of the DM just telling the players what's what, and makes it more of an involving group activity. The players tend to care more for their characters, seeing as they helped create the place they possibly came from.
Often times, a problem my players and I run into in established settings, is that everything's been done, every place has been explored, etc. Sure, this can easily be retconned by the DM, but that's just more work. Like in the cases of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, there are already so many powerful NPCs running around capable of bending reality, the PCs often feel insignificant, and it gets harder for us to justify these PCs as the heroes of the day, when Rary or Bigby or whomever could just walk up and do the whole job without batting an eyelash. I know this is not always the case, but at our table this dicussion comes up. In a homebrew, the players get to be the heroes, without too much worry of a random god-like NPC showing up and stealing the spotlight.
Homebrew campaigns are a lot of work, and honestly sometimes we don't feel like going through all that just to play. But, on those rare occasions, I find them very interesting.
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OK folk I want to put out a warming on my post: The opinions presented here are from an unapologetic rules lawyering munchkin.
I am not a fan of home-brews.
I am useing the Forgotten Realms as my prime example.
My DM does not like to do a whole lot of work on a campaign he's stricktly a module junkie, so a player like me that has devoured all the information possible on everything from the gods,politics,important heroes and figures to coats of arms for the civilized nations is invaluable.
Yes, I will admit it I am "that guy"
Just out of curiosity, how often does that informtion come up if the DM is a module junkie?
That's one of my biggest complaints about it. The cannon was so complete that there didn't seem to be any room for the player characters to have an impact on the world. (As a side note this is part of why I can't get into MMORPGs)
I ran four campaigns (mostly 1-15 stuff) in my homebrew. The second one actually took place fifty years before the start of the first, my players were worried because they would be dealing with the run-up to the first campaign and they thought I would be too rigid in keeping events happening even if they should have been able to stop them. I told them that I have no problem ith alternate universes, they saw the world 50 years later where their characters did not exist. Future campaigns in that world took place in a different region so I never had to answer which of the two realities they were playing in.
That said, I love homebrew. It is more work but worth it in the end. I just don't have the time for it unfortunately. Maybe after I run Council of thieves and Legacy of Fire I will have more time but right now I just cant dedicate any time to plotting out full adventures and worlds. That really is the big drawback of homebrew is the time requirements... well that and the occasional odd plot element. (Played in one campaign where a boat, named bote, became sentient and ascended to godhood. Not certain when we will let the person who was DMing live it down.)
Allow me to play devil's advocate: Doesn't this sort of player participation run the risk of mucking up the creator's artistic vision for his/her world, resulting in a "too many chefs ruin the soup" kind of situation? :(
As DM I of course have a veto. The funny thing is that I have never had to use it. I think because a homebrew is also a group effort. In fact, I get the best ideas for my world after a good D&D session.
As a matter of fact, three of the things in Luna's homebrew example had all happened in my FR game. My current character idolizes a previous character of mine from the game before (which is funny because the new young wizard is a total sweetheart, but his misplaced hero worship is for a guy who's a total ass [even though he became the Magister]). Two of the party members from the first game went on to join the Faerunian pantheon as lesser gods, and two other characters built up powerful cities in their time that in our continuity rival Waterdeep and Calimport. Many might say that these kinds of these destroy the pre-conceieved notion of "what is Faerun", but quite frankly, I strongly feel that this is the point and that many players and DMs still don't realize that ... :(
Yes, I totally agree. That is also what I like about my homebrew, and what I like about D&D.
I did a from-the-grounds-up homebrew for about 5 years, and enjoyed it, but it burned me out. I'm running a Forgotten Realms campaign now, though, and I'll tell you, I'll never do a 100% original homebrew again. I have to do far less prepwork now, I don't have to create maps and NPCs all the time, and I have the luxury of disregarding or downplaying what I dislike. In the end, it essentially becomes my take on the FR. It helps that there's only one guy at the table who's a true Realms fan, and he doesn't mind my changes. I've been throwing in published stuff like cities and organizations from other sources to keep things fresh for him too. We're having a good time with it, so it's working well in my eyes.
A homebrew does not have to be 100% original. Though my world map and country and place names are original, this does not mean I do not use maps, cities, prestige classes, etc. from commercial sources. If I need a city map, I use one from an official source, and then rename the city. Of course I look for a city which more or less fits with the position on the world map. Then I keep the parts of the city which fit in my campaign world, and discard those which do not. If I would not use commercial sources, I would not even have time to DM :-)
With a homebrew everything is left to the whim of the dm with the players haveing no leg to stand on as far as but continuity.
He didnt like that so with no warning he changed the way magic works in his game, he didnt like the fact I was playing an evil gnome(they should all be happy hobbit like folk) and placed an alignment restriction on all non-human races. Shortly there after the game broke up because he'd done too many people like that.
The above example is my most extreme example of why home brews don't work, with out published continuity the players have no way to address grevances.
The first home brew I played in was great because the DM let us as players have some limited imput as to his world, I.E. My druid is from forestX so he created forest X, the fighter was a noble woman from the duchey of Y and so forth we got to help with the world and that made alot of diffrence.
My homebrew is not something I change on a whim. As I told before, I always make notes and they become canon. My players know that, and we even have a resource (a website) with maps, etc. If I ever change anything (which is almost never), I always consult with the players about this. There was one moment I made a major change in my homebrew, and that was when we stepped over from first to third edition. This was with the consent of all the players.
The problem you are describing is probably caused by your DM, not by his homebrew.Often times, a problem my players and I run into in established settings, is that everything's been done, every place has been explored, etc. Sure, this can easily be retconned by the DM, but that's just more work. Like in the cases of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, there are already so many powerful NPCs running around capable of bending reality, the PCs often feel insignificant, and it gets harder for us to justify these PCs as the heroes of the day, when Rary or Bigby or whomever could just walk up and do the whole job without batting an eyelash. I know this is not always the case, but at our table this dicussion comes up. In a homebrew, the players get to be the heroes, without too much worry of a random god-like NPC showing up and stealing the spotlight.
Yes, that is why I never liked FR. One name in particular: ELMINSTER.
This does not mean there are no high-level characters in my homebrew. But they are mostly off-world (= on another plane), busy, in deep trouble themselves (after all, if the PCs were high-level, they would be), are not interested at all in the specific problem the PCs are dealing with, do not know anything about it or have mysteriously disappeared (creating another adventure hook for high level).
*pout* I can't afford to go. Maybe next year...I'm feelin' ya on the money thing. I could afford the tickets, but not the hotel and flight.
Any chance of an East Coast PaizoCon?
I would certainly attend, and I think I might be able to get someone to deal in the dealer's room.
Just out of curiosity, how often does that informtion come up if the DM is a module junkie?
I'd wager 'not often' and thus 99% of all the information would thus be largely academic. Your chances of having any sort of meaningful interaction with all the significant groups and events would be minimal, and they would only be referred to in passing to add flavour, or to remind you what setting you were in.
There is a place for Built, and there is a place for Bought, but its just apples and oranges, and to try benchmark the two is quite difficult.
Quite frankly most players couldn't care less what the setting is and wouldn't take the time to read up on it even if you sent them bits of information and told them they were mandatory reading. I've only ever had one player ask for reading material on my setting of his own accord; it's certainly not the norm, and staying a few steps ahead of your players is something that just works often enough to take it for granted.
Having that said I do get where you're coming from. The first thing that comes to mind is that most GMs have a lot more of their setting in their heads than they've ever put down on paper. Writing out a setting is a lot of work, and if you haven't done it, it pays to sit down with the creator and pick their brains about what they have. That's certainly the least I could do if someone is taking that active an interest in making a character that fits the world. Second thing that comes to mind is that the lack of detail can work in your advantage; you can work with the GM to come up with something you like and he can make it fit somewhere into the world without straining consistency like you might with a more established setting. The players can be part of the world building as much as the GM.
Anyway I have about sixteen more pages of text on this subject in my head but I gotta run so I can start cooking.
Hell, Unless you have good players most of them won't look past the character creation rules for some settings, I ran Eberron for 2 years, and constantly tried to get my players to read read read, become more immersed in the setting, I even created an NPC Bard that would regail stories between games on a forum I created, I spent so much time trying to make the world more immersive, but most of the time, it was time wasted.
I like when I have good players, to have them expand the world, this is especially true in Earthdawn with my kids right now, I'm getting them to submit their journal pages with pictures and descriptions of new flora and fauna they find, it expands the world, and makes it more interesting when I can throw in something they created, and they feel like they have contributed to the world.
I even remember when I was younger, I would go through the FR novels, and write down common phrases, then give those out to my players.
Hell, Unless you have good players most of them won't look past the character creation rules for some settings
Quoted for truth.
Most of the time, players only have a passing curiosity with the setting, and just assume default fantasy mode.
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I make homebrewed beer, but it tastes nothing like the flavor of Pathfinder.
Now I wonder what Pathfinder flavored beer would taste like...
Anywho, I like premade settings. In my limited experience, homebrewed settings, including my own, are a bit too 'internal' and make the most sense in the head of the designer, and end up having some pretty gaping logical flaws (or ommisions) when they hit the table and transform from 'my fanfiction' to 'interacting entertainment medium.'
Or, to paraphrase, "No homebrew survives contact with the players."
Published settings benefit from having a half-dozen (or more) hands in the pot right from the beginning. The Realms may have started as Ed Greenwood's baby, but it has had more input from different creators than one can shake a stick at, for better (Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim) and for worse (Time of Troubles, Spellplague). Without *some* pot-stirring and meddling and 'mucking things up,' a one-author setting, IMO, begins to feel a bit incestuous, like one of those houses that you visit where the owners have everything just so and clearly never allow their kids to *touch anything,* making it not a home, so much as a showplace that one is to see and possibly compliment, but not in any way feel welcome to interact with.
And, whatever metaphor I was going for, I think I beat it to death. Ignore the whimpering. Just shoot it and put it out of its misery.
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One of the best things about homebrew can be when players help make the campaign world.
Player A is making a cavalier. This guy comes from a knightly order, even though the Dm hasn't come up with any yet. If the DM and player can work together, they can flesh out the knighthood and it's place in the campaign world. This gives the player a much greater investment in the game, as part of it is his creation.
Done right, a homebrew can have even greater player involvement that anything purchased out of a box.
*touches nose* NAILED IT!!! That is precisely what I wanted to say at an earlier point!! +1
Set has a point; homebrews would be more internal; players have to learn it rather than read the manual more often than not. I suppose I have a little advantage there as I used all the mythic lands and their mythic histories and a few novels. So, generally we all have and idea of mythic Greece or mythic Scandanavia and so on. So I am always checking the lore and have lots of real world source material for heroes and dieties and magic items and the like. I guess my homebrew is a halfway homebrew; Does that make it like a lite beer; Homebrew Lite or Homebrew Select; hehe I drank select lite beer for a bit for lower calories; but prefer my own brewed amber beers or better yet; drink my brothers. I brew beer from a can as well, most times, so like my world; I started with a lot of external help hehe.
I tend to agree with the original poster; on average, the homebrew campaigns I've played in lacked the kind of logic, flavour and detail I like. But there have been a few awesome exceptions where the GM has obviously put in a lot of work to the campaign world. But as a rule, I'd rather have a prepackaged campaign guide to no campaign guide at all (or a campaign guide that's just a few notes written on a scrap of papaer).
On the other hand, I've seen plenty of pre-made campaign worlds that I don't like either. For instance, I don't really like the standard Forgotten Realms campaign world (too many ultra-powerful NPCs for my taste).
P.S. I'm sure some people out there who enjoy this kind of thing, but the worst case scenario for me is a GM who has the whole campaign world mapped out to a high level of detail but who hardly shares any information with the players, and then gets smug enjoyment from how ignorant the PCs are.
DM: "Oh! I can't believe you said that to Sir Grimbor! Haha!"
Player: "Why, what's so special about Sir Grimbor?"
DM: "Oh, nothing...nothing. <chuckle> I'm sure you did the right thing."
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On the other hand, I've seen plenty of pre-made campaign worlds that I don't like either. For instance, I don't really like the standard Forgotten Realms campaign world (too many ultra-powerful NPCs for my taste).
I haven't dealt too much with FR, but what I have seen of it leads me to believe that the average commoner is in the epic levels.
I've seen homebrew campaign settings that are at least equal to the average level of quality of published settings. The only real difference were mostly that of professional editing and polish.
That being said, there are also settings that are pretty horrible. Apparently the infamous Dungeons & Dragons movie was based on the homebrew campaign setting of the creator.
Quality for homebrew, just like quality for published settings, varies wildly. But I wouldn't necessarily say that one is better than the other. Both have their own advantages and disadvantages. And most poeple find a happy medium....Either a homebrew campaign that is influenced by one or more published settings, or a pusblished setting that is modified to the interests of the DM & players.
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Set has a point; homebrews would be more internal; players have to learn it rather than read the manual more often than not.
And this is why I waited until I had 20k words of source before even letting players write characters. And even then, I just had her import a character from her own homebrew to ease the transition.
Just to give you an idea of how intense and full bodied my game is; i gave a player a 8 page sheet tailor made to her character about all the movers and shakers she knew and got a second one ready for all the themes currently going on rumors and the like; but she never even bothered to read the first handout of the people she knew. Go figure, she was playing a well connected person, but didnt bother to read it; was she overwhelmed? These were just to top 50 movers and shakers in her perpective; not even the fairly important list of hundreds of others. I seriously have three 3 inch binders of characters and npcs for various areas and another notebook full of themes, prophesies, and the like; and then the current pc notebook with all their writings. Then yet another notebook of important magic items, relics and the like.
nothing dissappoints a gm more who gets a new character who has been wanting into his homebrew than not reading the background stuff he gives you. Hard to imagine that people lack for stuff from a GM.
Just to give you an idea of how intense and full bodied my game is; i gave a player a 8 page sheet tailor made to her character about all the movers and shakers she knew and got a second one ready for all the themes currently going on rumors and the like; but she never even bothered to read the first handout of the people she knew. Go figure, she was playing a well connected person, but didnt bother to read it; was she overwhelmed? These were just to top 50 movers and shakers in her perpective; not even the fairly important list of hundreds of others. I seriously have three 3 inch binders of characters and npcs for various areas and another notebook full of themes, prophesies, and the like; and then the current pc notebook with all their writings. Then yet another notebook of important magic items, relics and the like.
nothing dissappoints a gm more who gets a new character who has been wanting into his homebrew than not reading the background stuff he gives you. Hard to imagine that people lack for stuff from a GM.
This was the problem I had with my homebrew back in 2nd edition, the players didn't care to know anything but the most glaringly obvious differences from the typical fantasy world. That's not the fault of the homebrew, but the lack of player interest.
The Realms may have started as Ed Greenwood's baby, but it has had more input from different creators than one can shake a stick at, for better (Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim) and for worse (Time of Troubles, Spellplague).What you have as examples of "for worse" illustrate my complaints about FR cannon. Your examples of "for better" do reflect some of the better aspects of the Realms development, expansion is usually better than taking detail too much under the microscope (which some of the more heavily published aspects of the realms are guilty of.)
On the other hand, I've seen plenty of pre-made campaign worlds that I don't like either. For instance, I don't really like the standard Forgotten Realms campaign world (too many ultra-powerful NPCs for my taste).I haven't dealt too much with FR, but what I have seen of it leads me to believe that the average commoner is in the epic levels.
Actually it's more like every other person is a spell caster, there is a high level character for every commoner, and 1 in 5 of those are epic level.
To be fair, while I'm not a fan of Forgotten Realms, my biggest criticism of it is not so much the quality of the setting in general, but the overbuilt details (especially in the area of epic NPCs).
If it seems there is a lot of picking on Forgotten Realms going on, that is only because it is probably the most heavily developed campaign setting around. As a result it makes a good example for both the best and worst a published setting has to offer.
In the end though, the quality of the DM has a lot more influence than the quality of the setting. Some DMs can do wonders with almost no setting background. Some can have a setting as detailed as the Realms and still fall flat. Add in varying levels of interest on the part of the players in the background material and you end up with no clear cut winner in the published vs. homebrew comparison. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both...
Man, Grey Box FR is by far one of the best products I own to this day.... That and 2e Planescape, Darksun, Spelljammer box sets and the Hollow world boxed set. If I still had my old Rules Cyclopedia I would have my most important D&D sets/books collected.... Need to track one down when I have money.
If I remember correctly The Forgotten Realms was a homebrew that got polished and published. The world was created and and then was adapted to fit the needs of campaign. I think Elminster just started out as some generic sage to generate a plot hook or put the PCs on the right track. As time went on he become the super magic user so many have differing opinions about today.
I think this shows one of the stronger aspects of homebrew campaigns. They offer a better flexibility to adapt to the wants and needs of a group than published worlds. In the hands of a good DM with plenty of time it works really well.
Hell, Unless you have good players most of them won't look past the character creation rules for some settings
Quoted for truth.
Most of the time, players only have a passing curiosity with the setting, and just assume default fantasy mode.
I guess that my table is the exception to the rules then cause I am the forgotten realms guru of the group, my buddy dave is the greyhawk font of knowlege and justin is all about everything ebberon so we all have our feilds of intrest. The DM runs the modules here and there with a few tweaks, randome encounters,personally created npc,etc. but for the most part he deals with the math and studd of the game leaving the players to fill him in on things like who the simbul is or who iuz is or why this house hates that house in a trade disput etc.
The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.
The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.
While that's true, I still think it takes some of the fun out of playing low-to-mid level characters facing off against a powerful bad guy's evil scheme to have the DM explain "Hey, that so-called powerful bad guy is really a pipsqueak, and the really powerful people in the world (both good and evil) have more important things to worry about". YMMV, of course.
Hell, Unless you have good players most of them won't look past the character creation rules for some settingsQuoted for truth.
Most of the time, players only have a passing curiosity with the setting, and just assume default fantasy mode.I guess that my table is the exception to the rules then cause I am the forgotten realms guru of the group, my buddy dave is the greyhawk font of knowlege and justin is all about everything ebberon so we all have our feilds of intrest. The DM runs the modules here and there with a few tweaks, randome encounters,personally created npc,etc. but for the most part he deals with the math and studd of the game leaving the players to fill him in on things like who the simbul is or who iuz is or why this house hates that house in a trade disput etc.
The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.
The problem I have heard alot of people say they have with the Uber Npcs of the FR is not that they are only too powerful it's that there is statisticly too many people who upstage the pcs who are supposed to be the up coming movers and shakers, and the real breakdown is "If Elminster is so powerful why is he letting (X) take over (Y)?" These powerful do gooders kinda never sem involved in any of the events if you want the pcs to shine so they all look lazy or they are always doing cool stuff while the pcs get trashed and occaisonally have to lick their wounds, but most importantly 65+% of all people who run FR campaigns SEEM to use the npcs as Dues Ex Machina and the players feel slighted by npcs that save them... At least from my xp...
Hell, Unless you have good players most of them won't look past the character creation rules for some settings
Quoted for truth.
Most of the time, players only have a passing curiosity with the setting, and just assume default fantasy mode.
I guess that my table is the exception to the rules then cause I am the forgotten realms guru of the group, my buddy dave is the greyhawk font of knowlege and justin is all about everything ebberon so we all have our feilds of intrest. The DM runs the modules here and there with a few tweaks, randome encounters,personally created npc,etc. but for the most part he deals with the math and studd of the game leaving the players to fill him in on things like who the simbul is or who iuz is or why this house hates that house in a trade disput etc.
The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.
Are you sure that one of your friends isn't LG, the other true N, and yourself CE? Or some such mixture? ;-)
You are indeed the exception to the rule. Your unabashed twinking/munchkining aside, I'd love to play with you and your friends some day.
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The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.
The problem isn't that there are some epic level NPC. It's that pretty much EVERY character you meet in the novels is epic level. I think the character generation system in Faerûn consists of 9d6 drop 6, arrange as desired, add 20 +1d12 levels of desired class, and then begin play as the weakest character on the continent.
Hell, Unless you have good players most of them won't look past the character creation rules for some settings
Quoted for truth.
Most of the time, players only have a passing curiosity with the setting, and just assume default fantasy mode.
I guess that my table is the exception to the rules then cause I am the forgotten realms guru of the group, my buddy dave is the greyhawk font of knowlege and justin is all about everything ebberon so we all have our feilds of intrest. The DM runs the modules here and there with a few tweaks, randome encounters,personally created npc,etc. but for the most part he deals with the math and studd of the game leaving the players to fill him in on things like who the simbul is or who iuz is or why this house hates that house in a trade disput etc.
The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.
Are you sure that one of your friends isn't LG, the other true N, and yourself CE? Or some such mixture? ;-)
You are indeed the exception to the rule. Your unabashed twinking/munchkining aside, I'd love to play with you and your friends some day.
were always looking for new players if your anywhere near norfolk,va come on and play. Game days alternate between sat/sun depending on everyones work schedule. As long as you know that your setting yourself down to some serious, unashamed munchin,uber twink gameing come on in. We can honestly use a rouge if your serious no one at our table wants to play a non-spellcaster so I have to keep useing my zombies to find all the traps and that gets expensive after awhile. We do have a fighter but thats because his cleric died and he had to suck it up and be the hp sponge for the rest of us, he's looking to suicide the charecter asap so he can play a cleric again. Just so you know what your getting into.
The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.The problem isn't that there are some epic level NPC. It's that pretty much EVERY character you meet in the novels is epic level. I think the character generation system in Faerûn consists of 9d6 drop 6, arrange as desired, add 20 +1d12 levels of desired class, and then begin play as the weakest character on the continent.
I can only recommend the latest module we ran called tearing of the weave. It was great. NONE of the uber NPC's could do anything because of shar and her shadow weave takeing over. It was all up to the pc's to lead the revolt against tyranny and unless the cleric is a cleric of mystra with the devotion feat at 3rd level the party is gonna be sucking on healing. I was a cleric of mystra(is any other god worth bothering with?)so I was able to cast in the anti-magic shell enviroment to keep my party memebers alive. Naturally the villians had full command of their powers. It's a tough module but as long as somebody's a mystran cleric it's surviable.
Or you can go online download the free 2nd ed moduoles and convert them, it's alotta work but the stories are amazing.
The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.The problem isn't that there are some epic level NPC. It's that pretty much EVERY character you meet in the novels is epic level. I think the character generation system in Faerûn consists of 9d6 drop 6, arrange as desired, add 20 +1d12 levels of desired class, and then begin play as the weakest character on the continent.
Now now, that's how you generate non-spellcasters in Faerun. Spellcasters roll 20d6, don't drop anything, arrange to taste, add 20 +d100 levels of desired class and get to pick up 1d4 PCs as followers;)
The Realms holds a bit of a special place for me simply because it was the first campaign setting where paladins weren't all portrayed as lawful stupid or spanish inquisition. I'm looking at you, Greyhawk.
??? I am not a fan of Greyhawk (by far), but what do you mean? What's special about Greyhwawk paladins?
Now now, that's how you generate non-spellcasters in Faerun. Spellcasters roll 20d6, don't drop anything, arrange to taste, add 20 +d100 levels of desired class and get to pick up 1d4 PCs as followers;)The one thing about forgotten realms that I would like to point out is that The high lvl NPC's that everyone complains about in the realms (the sacred 7,drizzit and company) they dont have to be used. Why would uber powerful wizards or other npc's bother with bandits and 1st level stuff when you have interdimesional threats that can destroy all life for them to battle. In other words thye stick to their challenge rateing, now if and when the pc's get to 20th or so lvl then they have hit the big leagues and el and company will welcome the help. Thats how it's always been played in any game I've been in.The problem isn't that there are some epic level NPC. It's that pretty much EVERY character you meet in the novels is epic level. I think the character generation system in Faerûn consists of 9d6 drop 6, arrange as desired, add 20 +1d12 levels of desired class, and then begin play as the weakest character on the continent.
no that's half casters
spellcasters roll 108 d6 and don't drop anything getting 4 free maximized scores. they add 20 +108 d1,000 levels and have a minimum of 108 percent of the maximum. there are 108 of them for each one of the 108 stars of destiny. and another 108 are born for each inidivdual descendant of one of the 108 stars. they all secretly have every beneficial template at no ecl adjustment, even illegal ones, 108 times each per template, these templates have no cosmetic effect, they are just to make them more epic, when they touch someone they roll a number of d1,000s equal to 108 to the 108th power with static damage equal to 108 to the 108th power. and all spells they cast are free actions that may be done at will. they also ignore the caps limiting every spell, regardless of the school that the spell came from.
Wow, this thread certainly digressed...!
It seems fairly universal that while it's all well and good that FR has epic NPCs, those characters can be terribly misused/abused by a DM and actually do little to increase the joy of the roleplaying game experience...
Does that mean that we generally prefer settings (homebrew or otherwise) where evil threats are more powerful than the goodly (or at least neutral) forces, and that few (if any) NPCs should rival the abilities of accomplished party of PCs? Eberron took that concept and ran with it, but that setting in 3.5 is challenging to run epic-level play for (believe me, I'm DMing such a game as we speak). If a concensus is generated from the collected opinions of the posters, we could have a very interesting (and important!) piece of data to consider when running a published setting or a homebrew.
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Does that mean that we generally prefer settings (homebrew or otherwise) where evil threats are more powerful than the goodly (or at least neutral) forces, and that few (if any) NPCs should rival the abilities of accomplished party of PCs?
I do, at least the first half. After all, a world where good is more powerful than evil doesn't have the need for heroes that one where the forces of evil have the upper hand. It's one slight problem I've had with the game for quite a while, the most powerful angels are slightly more powerful than the most powerful devils/demons, the metallic dragons are slightly more powerful than their chromatic counterparts, etc.
NPCs, I don't agree. Some should always be more powerful than the PCs, although that number should rapidly decrease as they grow more and more powerful.
Well, although i agree that the debate somewhat digressed from the original topic, some of the posts made me think about my own homebrew setting, and i will keep them in mind for the future...
... which make this thread useful, at least for that.
So, thanks :)
Another problem that has not been discussed has happened in the two homebrews that I have played in, although it not a bad thing in the overall scheme of things and does make some interesting problems and roleplay for the PC's. The uber good guys may be prevented from acting for various reasons. For example, by compact, the higher power good NPC's cannot act, because if they act then the uber bad guys can then act. That is just an example, but you can see the interesting complications that or similiar situations could cause the PC's.
Does that mean that we generally prefer settings (homebrew or otherwise) where evil threats are more powerful than the goodly (or at least neutral) forces, and that few (if any) NPCs should rival the abilities of accomplished party of PCs? Eberron took that concept and ran with it, but that setting in 3.5 is challenging to run epic-level play for (believe me, I'm DMing such a game as we speak).
Personally, I prefer that kind of setting. I like the idea that the PCs rank among the big shots in the world fairly early on. After all, Gandalf was only a 5th level magic-user. ;-)
I think Eberron also made a wise choice in putting powerful creatures (like outsiders, giants and dragons) physically or metaphysically remote from the main game area.
I prefer a more Renaissance feel to campaign settings, though (e.g. more castles and crossbows, and fewer trains and daily newspapers).
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Part of the Elminster problem is that he is basically a god. There isn't any likelihood of him being killed.
What would make more sense for a campaign world is for the "Elminster" to be a fading star. Retired, weakening, and soon to die. Then it makes sense for the PCs to strive to fill the power vacuum (for the good, presumably, but as the campaign goes) that his demise will cause.
If the same campaign world is used again and again, have each subsequent campaign occur in that transition - the "Elminster" of the day could have been recently assassinated, for example.