Currently there really isn't one. Enough things changed between 3.x and Pathfinder Core that many of the CharOp cleric builds don't work in a Core only game anymore.
Further spells that were zOMG must have in 3.x simply aren't as awesome as they were in 3.x which requires adjustments to strategy.
Finally a lot of the cleric's utility depends on domain spell selection and thus you generally need to talk about what domains and domain spells are worth taking.
That being said I think that collectively a simple guide (less detailed than what Treantmonk is doing) could probably be generated relatively fast just through the posts of various members.
|
From what I've seen for clerics, you really don't have a list of awesome and a list of terrible. There are several reasons for this and I'll see if I can't help ya out.
Your (her) character is definitely going to have a large affect on the type of spells you (she) pick. If your a melee style cleric, you'll take spells that help you bash things about and buff yourself, if your a healing type you'd be expected to have magic that helps getting rid of diseases and poisons and if your a blaster type you'd have more attack spells like searing light and the like. Plus when you throw in your domains, it's very difficult to say what you should or shouldn't have because no one is going to know what kind of cleric you want to be except for you (her).
It's much better to come up with a few probable spell lists for the various situations that might come up in an adventure. Preparation is the most powerful magic of all. Look at all the spells that you have access to and then come up with a list for a day where you know your going to be in a city, in the wilderness, on a boat, in a cave, etc. It won't make you perfectly ready for any challenge, but it certainly will help out significantly.
Feel free to experiment as well, as a cleric your very capable of trying out your spells once or twice before you don't put them on your spell list again. If she finds some she really likes, all the better.
+1. The best strategy is to be prepared. Nobody can do that perfectly all the time, of course, but with the entire list at your disposal every 24 hours, you're as flexible a spellcaster as it gets.
Here's some thoughts on 0-Level Cleric Spells (Orisons)
Bleed: Don't bother
Create Water: Very Campaign Specific - Desert Campaign go for it otherwise don't bother
Detect Magic: Good Orison to memorize, however if you've got an arcane caster in the group it might be worthwhile to let him memorize instead.
Detect Poison: Ok in trap heavy games, otherwise the handful of times you cast it each day is very very limited
Guidance: Good choice, the fact that is sticks around until discharged means you can use it as a minor buff all day long
Light: Good choice for dungeon campaigns so that you don't have to invest in lanterns or sunrods as much
Mending: Good utility choice but not something you need to prepare daily
Purify Food and Drink: If the party can use survival to hunt this spell isn't that useful. Longterm dungeon crawl maybe it raises in utility.
Read Magic: Ok, but let the Wizard memorize this
Resistance: Good but the limited duration limits it's use as a routine buff.
Stabilize: For various reasons in combat healing is subpar. Stabilize can help prevent you from having to spend money and time casting raise dead and restoration. I'd say prepare this and hope you don't need to use.
Virtue: Poor choice, it simply doesn't scale up at all.
I will work on higher level spells later.
I have a cleric just turning 5th level, and here's my thoughts:
* If you're playing in a team game, spells tend to work best when others benefit or become enabled by them. Spells that affect your whole party, like bless and prayer, are better than they seem. If one melee character gets one additional hit because of your bless, the spell is already worth it. Casting magic weapon on a character that doesn't have a magic weapon can be *tremendous* if magic DR is involved. Same with align weapon -- casting align weapon: good on that cold iron axe can be extremely effective on some bad guys.
* Don't underestimate the effect of area of effect (AoE) spells. A spell may have suboptimal damage output -- but you have to consider using the spell on multiple enemies simultaneously. Then the spell suddenly becomes much better. Sound burst is one such spell that is consistently underrated. The damage is low, yes. The stun is a fortitude save, yes (many tough enemies have good fortitude saves). But in the ~4 level range, fortitude saves aren't that high. The chance to get a stun from sound burst on average is significant. And anyone knows that stuns can cause some serious tempo losses in a fight.
* Spell resistance is bad. Making a monster make a saving throw is typically a bad deal statistically unless you target a weak save. Spell resistance makes many spells a bad deal *on top* of a bad deal. I always treat a spell with spell resistance: yes as a spell that has a significant failure chance. If you can cast spells that aid in combat without making a spell resistance check, you're more likely to be effective. Yes, you can take feats like Spell Penetration and be an elf -- but for a cleric this can be a bit of a feat stretch.
* Spells that are multi-purpose are underrated because they're not specialized. Dispel magic in PF is not weak. It's a spell designed to be both offensive and defensive. It can remove a specific bad debuff from a party member. It can also remove a buff from an enemy. It can also be used as a kind of universal counterspell. Yes, it got nerfed from 3.5. But it's still not a bad spell. Any spell that is both offensive and defensive can be considered more flexible than a spell that does only defense or only offense. Flexibility of purpose is good.
|
This would be my assessment of first-level cleric spells. Ratings are based on each spell's worthiness for being memorized, not their overall utility. Many good spells you are better off having on scrolls or wands, and need not waste spell slots memorizing. As always, circumstances in your adventures and campaigns may skew the values of these considerably.
Four-Star Spells
Bless: At low levels, one of the best 1st-level cleric spells to take. The bonus is small, but should affect your entire group, and that +1 to hit will probably make a difference at least one in any fight.
Shield of Faith: The deflection bonus is not huge, but I find it tends to scale ahead of any magical rings granting deflection bonuses you or your allies might have, and an extra two or three points of deflection bonus can have a significant impact for most melee fighting types.
Three-Star Spells
Command: If you plan on coming up against intelligent foes, this spell can be blue; if against any of the many creatures immune to enchantments like this (such as investigating a tomb with undead, vermin, and the like) it is red.
Divine Favor: If you plan on being in melee, this is not a bad spell to have, and the bonus does scale up as you advance in level.
Obscuring Mist: A decent battlefield control spell, useful if you need to escape from an overwhelming encounter, or close with enemies with stronger ranged support. Its biggest weakness is that it surrounds you, so it also hinders the ranged spellcasting and attacks of you and your allies.
Sanctuary: A nice protective spell for you to allow you to reposition yourself and cast buff spells, healing, etc. in battle. Especially considering how much higher Concentration check DCs are in Pathfinder, anything to avoid having to roll them is a boon.
Two-Star Spells
Bane: The reverse of bless, unfortunately while this spell affects a large number of creatures, it allows a fairly easy Will save, and the effect is relatively minor.
Cause Fear: At low levels only this spell can be decent, especially if your group is designed to work together to stack fear effects (e.g., you have someone with maxed out Intimidate). After a few levels, though, the hit die cap turn this spell red.
Hide from Undead: Circumstantially useful. If you do plan on going against undead, you'll want it memorized rather than on a scroll, since intelligent undead do get a save.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: These spells give a decent array of perks, though not as good as in 3.5 ed. The short duration is a big weakness, especially compared to the magic circle spells. It is a decent spell to have on a scroll, or even a wand, if you do end up with a charmed ally, or running up against a summoner.
One-Star Spells
Bless Water: Strictly for downtime between adventures.
Comprehend Languages: Get this on a scroll; don’t waste spell slots memorizing it.
Cure Light Wounds: You should never need to memorize it, since you can spontaneously convert to it and as soon as you can you should have wands of cure light wounds available in your group.
Curse Water: Another downtime spell, for the evil caster.
Deathwatch: The information this spell gives is not precise enough to be worth the spell slot. Just use visual cues to determine how injured someone is. (Is your fighter lying on the ground gushing blood from a throat wound? He's probably not at 50% health.)
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: Circumstantially useful, but just get it on a scroll instead.
Detect Undead: Another decent spell to have on a scroll, but probably not memorized.
Doom: A single-target save or suck mildly spell with a save allowed. Generally not worth it.
Endure Elements: If you need this spell you'll likely know about it well in advance. You probably won’t even need it on a scroll.
Entropic Shield: The miss chance granted by this is low enough that you definitely cannot count on it, and certainly shouldn’t waste a spell slot praying for it.
Inflict Light Wounds: Your melee attack likely does more damage than this, or it should, and doesn’t leave you empty-handed afterward.
Magic Stone: Again, you are better off simply making a ranged attack than wasting a slot on this spell.
Magic Weapon: At low levels this spell might be memorized if you plan on fighting creatures with DR, or as a minor boost to you or an ally. Otherwise not worth it, especially since by level 2-3 pretty much anyone who attacks regularly in combat likely has a magical weapon anyway.
Remove Fear: Just take a few on scrolls and leave it at that.
Summon Monster I: While many of the summoning spells can be useful, at low levels the duration of this is too short, and by the time it becomes usable the creatures it summons are too weak to be viable in combat.
As has already been posted, it depends on what type of cleric she is playing. From what i have seen, though, in my players selections, go with party buffing spells. Since you can spontaneously cast cure spells, don't even bother putting htem on the list. Also, since it is easier to buff your team than debuff the enemy, typically it is smarter to buff your team first, then if the enemies are still alive, do something to them. I like to build clerics as field manipulators, meaning that they don't do much to directly influence combat, but provide boons or detriments to give the rest of the party an advantage to take out the enemies.
At 5th level my spells might look like this:
1st lvl: Obscuring Mist, Protection from ..., and shield of faith.
2nd lvl: Shield Other, Sound Burst
3rd lvl: Prayer
Hope this helps.
|
Ok, I broke down and have begun to work on a Cleric Guide. So far, it is 11 pages, give or take, and I am only to 2nd level spells. I have a topic about Feats, Skills, Races, Tactics, Gear, and I think one more. Any suggestions or requests? At the moment, it is just Word, but I am going to see if I can get ahole of TreantMonk for a little help doing it the way he did.
If you want to simplify things, grab Scribe Scroll as the 5th level feat.
Why? Because let's face it, there are two kinds of cleric spells. Ones that are always useful (bless, Prayer, CLW), and ones that alternate between useless and lifesaving (water-breathing).
Scribe scroll is awesome for a new cleric player, because it lets you keep a set of the seldom used spells on hand for emergencies, while you prepare the same 5 spells for most days.
I've played with players like your wife before, and one of the mistakes commonly made is to feel like all spells in the book need to be mastered immediately. That's really not the case.
Pick 2-3, and learn what they do. If useful, you're set. If not, learn two more. Over time, the list will become more familiar, which is how everyone else learned them.
Good Luck
|
Ok, I broke down and have begun to work on a Cleric Guide. So far, it is 11 pages, give or take, and I am only to 2nd level spells. I have a topic about Feats, Skills, Races, Tactics, Gear, and I think one more. Any suggestions or requests? At the moment, it is just Word, but I am going to see if I can get ahole of TreantMonk for a little help doing it the way he did.
Hi Beckett,
Thanks for putting together a guide. I look forward to reading it.
Treantmonk wrote his in Google Docs. One of its applications is similar to Word and you can share it with anyone.
|
|
a subsection on Spl Comp. stuff would be good. The book appears to still get alot of great use and spells like conviction, radient assault need mentioning.
I love to hate the Spell Compendium. . .
It took some of the best 3.5 spells and really screwed them up, in my opinion. But I will see about adding some Spell Compendium material. I am not sure if that is allowed on Google Docs and d20PFsrd.com, but I will check. And if not, I will just right them up here.
|
Nothing that appeared in the Spell Compendium, so far as I know, is OGC (open game content). Since d20pfsrd.com ONLY posts open game content nothing from SC could be reposted.
Edit #1: When I say "reposted" I mean to say you can not repost the spell details word for word. You can certainly refer to a spell and include your commentary on the usefulness of said spells, but you can not post the actual contents of those spells.
Edit #2: I'm working with Beckett to get his stuff added to the site btw. He has started working on a Google Doc and is linkifying/hooking his spell references it into the site already. I'll probably get a page up on the site sometime tomorrow.
3rd level:
Summon Monster 3 -- If you are good non chaotic, the lantern archon has several ways to go about helping you, from an extra ordinary ranged touch attack that by passes all damage reduction (great for when the party simply doesn't have a weapon to get through somethings DR), to the Aid spell, to a constant effect magic circle of protection from evil. Just bringing this guy out gives you a boost and you can rely on his damage to at least attract attention from you. For evil characters the Dretch gives use of a third level spell for free (stinking cloud) and has decent DR... over all just not as good of a monster as the lantern archon is though -- however a squad of Lemures can make a surprisingly strong wall if nothing else.
Magic Vestment -- has been mentioned but it deserves mention again. This saves you money at the expense of a spell slot.
Prayer -- Help me hurt you. Not bad for a team player spell -- not as good as haste though (which you can't have), no save throw to boot so you know you'll get something out of this spell.
Invisibility Purge -- Hey when you need it you need it, better than glitterdust at showing where they are, and it lasts longer too at better range.
2nd level:
Silence -- you don't want to hear the rogue anyways, and if he's standing right beside the enemy wizard so much the better!
Status -- depends entirely on how much the DM allows the players to share information. If he makes you keep your mouths shut about how your characters are doing this will let you keep tabs on them.
Resist Energy -- not so much now but at higher levels having an all day buff that prevents up to 30 damage of an energy type will generally mean that if you make the save throw you won't take damage.
Lesser Restoration -- Ability damage isn't so rare, and if it does show up this will keep you going. Truthfully you would rather have a wand of it though.
Spiritual Weapon -- It's a spell that attacks on it's own. When you need to hurt something with DR or out of everyone else's reach this is your baby. Now the damage isn't much but it can get multiple attacks, and is force so it'll hit incorporeal enemies too. It's something you can put out there on the first round while assessing the opposition and just let it go while you do more important things.
Delay Poison -- Hey if you can get them through the adventuring day you can hit them with the heal kit and your heal skill to make the save later *when you have the time and aren't in combat*. It saves you higher level spell slots casting Neutralize Poison and in the end is just as good, once you take a good heal skill into account. Long lasting too.
1st level:
Shield of Faith -- This ones iffy... the effect is nice, the action to cast it and the 1 minute a level duration isn't as much. If you know you are heading into something it's useful against anything however...
Protection from alignment -- This will generally give you the same benefits and more. The problem is knowing what alignment you are going to be facing when you prep the spell. Evil is generally a good guess, and Chaotic is just as good too usually .
Magic Stone -- IF (and I do mean IF) you KNOW you are going to fight undead this gives you three attacks that will hurt them at the cost of one spell slot... it becomes a ranged +2 greatsword basically against undead, that you can use 3 times... the spell lasts 30 minutes too so cast it before you go into the graveyard and give the stones to the rogue to use with that sneak attack and good initiative and there is a decent chance he'll take out one of the undead before the fight begins.
Divine Favor -- Meh, if you are going to be fighting and not casting this has use. Even at higher level it can't hurt to have it prepped once or twice, you might not want to use the Righteous Might but still want a bit of a boost... and this will give it to you.
Deathwatch -- Before you knock it realize it's a detection spell that is not concentration. That means you can cast it with it's 10 minute per level duration and sweep the room in a few rounds before you enter it to find hiding living creatures and the like. It doesn't pinpoint them, but it does tell you what you are facing and the fact that something is there... not bad for a first level spell!
Bless -- is best at lower level. At the level you are getting to it's simply not worth the time to cast anymore.
Ah, thanks man.
Just a few things on first glance:
Maybe change the text to Arial and left-align to make it easier to read?
And your color-coding confuses me, is red better than black?
And i can hardly concern green form black (but that may be my monitors fault...)
But otherwise, a good start, thanks again :)
Lvl 2: Shield Other. One of the best spells in the game for its level, only made better by the new channeling mechanic. It reduces damage to a level that you can use your AoE to counter. Really, I can't praise this spell enough
As mentioned in an earlier post, the problem with the ulta efficient cleric is what kind of cleric are we talking about. Until we define the role this particular cleric is going to play in a party evaluating spells is at best a guess.
I have a tendency to play the healer role so having skill focus (healing), the healing and goodness domains are pretty standard for me. The other role I have played in the past is the undead slayer so glory and sun would be my choice along with improved channeling and extra channeling. My friend plays a cleric of Gorum and goes for the self buffing spells and feats which enchance battle. His normal response for healing requests is "Healing spells are for weaklings."
So for me, scancuary is more important than divine favor or magic weapon. In my opinion the decision you make at 1st level for god/goddes and favorite weapon, domains and role to be played define 90% of what spells are going to be most valuable to you.
Doug
|
|
Ah, thanks man.
Just a few things on first glance:Maybe change the text to Arial and left-align to make it easier to read?
And your color-coding confuses me, is red better than black?
And i can hardly concern green form black (but that may be my monitors fault...)But otherwise, a good start, thanks again :)
It is a work in progress. I had it all on Word, and when it converted over, it didn't keep the same colors. At the moment, I wasn't really color coding it, per se, as much as showing spells and the like to stand out.
I am concidering going to directs with the color coding though. A.) would be towards certain builds/functions or B.) to show general dood and bad spell choices.
Again, I did that in one day, and am far from finished. Any suggestions or requests that I haven't yet gotten to? I plan on looking at a few builds, (generic Cleric, White Mage, Necromancer, Battle Cleric, Ranged Cleric, Mage Killer, and one or two more come to mind).
|
|
Ah, thanks man.
Just a few things on first glance:Maybe change the text to Arial and left-align to make it easier to read?
And your color-coding confuses me, is red better than black?
And i can hardly concern green form black (but that may be my monitors fault...)But otherwise, a good start, thanks again :)
It is a work in progress. I had it all on Word, and when it converted over, it didn't keep the same colors. At the moment, I wasn't really color coding it, per se, as much as showing spells and the like to stand out.
I am concidering going to directs with the color coding though. A.) would be towards certain builds/functions or B.) to show general dood and bad spell choices.
Again, I did that in one day, and am far from finished. Any suggestions or requests that I haven't yet gotten to? I plan on looking at a few builds, (generic Cleric, White Mage, Necromancer, Battle Cleric, Ranged Cleric, Mage Killer, and one or two more come to mind).
Ranged cleric is very hard to build. You need High Dex, Decent Strength, Decent Con, Decent to High Wis, Decent Cha and you can dump int. I don't think it's all that viable, unless you are primarily a spellcaster and a ranged weapon is your backup.
|
|
I agree, but I am also of the opinion to really play a Cleric, they need decent to good Abilities all around. This was just as true in 3.0/3.5, but specifically in the case of the ranged Cleric, PF has made it a little harder with the way they have changed Rightious Might and Enlarge Person (in regards to ranged attacks). Both are now just terrible spells for ranged combat, and there are no PF alternatives yet.