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Do spells of the polymorph subschool change your creature type? Or do you keep your own? My lich sorcerer wants to know.
I'd say so, under the description of the Polymorph sub-school it states that "You lose all Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as Darkvision, Scent, Keen Scent and so on (and in this case all the benefits of being Undead)) as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed of your original form."
As for the Lich's type in this case, it changes to match the creature in question (turning into a Giant type creature means you count as a Giant vs Dwarves and so forth for their bonuses and are vulnerable to Bane qualities associated to that type of creature.
For all intensive purposes, undead cannot usually 'Polymorph' into living creatures but the Lich is and exception to this rule (as in when it is willing to be affected, such as is described under the Lich's entry in the Bestiary) and thereby 'adopts' the new type temporarily (thusly counts as living, breathing being (which means it loses its Undead Immunities associated with its Undead Type) once more BUT it still keeps its soul in a recepticle so when it does it will regenerate back as a Liche when it dies - pretty much an awesome contingency should the Liche 'die' in living form.)
Since the Liche has NO Constitution score normally, it would adopt its original -previously living before undeath- Constitution score, which (if it isnt previously recorded) is likely the spellcasters second lowest stat statistically (as it is with most Mages, after Strength).
Princess you missed some stuff specifically in the polymorph description you should read over it again... Polymorph specifically does not change your type.
So...which is it?
Actually it DOES mention the Type element to the Polymorph spells, see below.
It mentions the change of type in Page 211-212, stating "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific TYPE, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor"
Also it says halfway down the page on 212, "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin TYPE, your gear melds into your body."
-Those two points clearly illustrate you change your Form because you adopt the TYPE of the creature you assume-
As for the powers you lose/keep, it states at the bottom of 212 "When under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose ALL extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent and darkvision) and well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those abilities that allow you to add class features (such as Sorcerors that can 'grow' claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form MIGHT restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by your new form."
That means if both forms possess the same ability, you keep it - otherwise it should be lost unless its Spellike (Sp) in nature with a few exceptions for Supernatural abilities like the Lich's Rejuvenation.
This seems clear cut to me. A Undead character using a Polymorph spell would LOOK Undead still in whatever form it takes unless it uses some kind of spell to make it seem living (which would require an Illusion spell) if it didnt gain a Constitution score. Assuming it DOES gain a Constitution score as it is written added to its pre-undead state of the caster, then it LOOKS living and functions as written in the spells.
This would also mean that the creatures TYPE would be a huge issue pre-Polymoprh spells, and what if anything would it change to and how it functions. Simply put - you turn into the creature in question, you gain or keep abiltiies that the assumed form has compared to your own and you assume the creatures Type. Otherwise, undead spellcasters would assume undead forms of these creatures and be vulnerable to all weaknesses of undead creatures. A Lich's Rejuvenation is unique in that it works through a recepticle or a phlactery and not directly the Lich itself which is all it should retain (apart from ability score modifiers) as well as its spellcasting ability.
Princess,
I'd argue that you're reading it wrong. Polymorph sub-school states that you gain the appearance and abilities of the form you turn into. It doesn't mention anything about specifically gaining the creature type you're turning into. I doubt they'd make an oversight like that.
Edit: Ja, you're right in that it specifically says the word "type", but not in the context in which you are trying to apply it.
Princess,
I'd argue that you're reading it wrong. Polymorph sub-school states that you gain the appearance and abilities of the form you turn into. It doesn't mention anything about specifically gaining the creature type you're turning into. I doubt they'd make an oversight like that.Edit: Ja, you're right in that it specifically says the word "type", but not in the context in which you are trying to apply it.
Nope, thats wrong - otherwise Undead spellcasters have a huge advantage over living spellcasters (adding charisma to each hit die for hit points is a huge advantage for a start) as well as all Undead Immunities in "Polymorphed" forms. And this would tip it more over the edge.
The section that lists abilities gained/lost by changing form clearly state under the Spell itself what you gain (and not from the type section listed at the back of the Bestiary). Undead Spellcasters turning into Polymorphed creatures would LOOK like Undead Creatures if they had a CON of 0 - they wouldnt breathe, be cold blooded and be corpse-like but somehow pass for a member of that species they emulate (in this case a Undead Dragon). They would not be vulnerable to [Favored Enemy (Dragon)/Bane Weapon (Dragon)] and still be weak to 'Channel Energy', 'Disruption' weapon and suchlike.The spells specifically state you and I quote...
"You become a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary)" ...thats for Form Of The Dragon I
Every form spell carrys with it a similar entry that you become/assume the form of the creature and possess its special abilities and qualities - it doesnt say you 'act/look like' the creature or have diet flavor-similar abilities, you BECOME the creature albeit a differently flavored version of it minus any natural Ex or Su abilities you once had in your last form and gaining any Ex and Su abilities listed under the spell description.
When the spell asks you to CONSULT the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary it pretty clear about what you are.
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
Ok since I'm spelling it out anyways:
It says you can take the form of a creature of a specific type.
Now our english classes should teach us that the "of a specific type" refers to the "of a creature" which is the type of form you can take. It doesn't give you the creatures type... it allows you to assume the form of a creature of that type.
Meaning you can't use dragon shape to assume a magical beasts shape.
Please note that each time it states that you take the appearance, or form it specifically doesn't say you take the type. It also specifically states that you don't gain all of the abilities... in short if it's not spelled out that you get it -- you don't get it .
In fact if you were the creature... then you wouldn't need a bonus to your disguise check to disguise yourself as the creature!
EDIT:
In fact if it actually granted you the type then all sorts of other abilities would be gained... something that specifically doesn't happen.
The spells only grant form that's all they ever state that they grant.
I just said that you didnt gain all the powers and abilities of the creature, I specifically wrote that as given in the Polymorph description you lose any form-specific Extraordinary and Supernatural abilities and gain anything listed in the spell description only (In a Lich's case, that counts for just about anything short of ability modifiers and the liche's unique Rejuvenation quality which is more tied to the Phalactery it has to craft to store its soul/essence so functions independantly of its form.) - not whats described under the Type entry for that creature. You are essentialy in a grey area between two types - you remain what you are quintessentially but are also something else, an undead spellcaster who assumes the form of a Giant is still just undead in that case, it ceases to be a Giant by that standard vs say a Dwarf's racial bonus vs giants though it is very similar. That'd be fine if it wasnt for a few problems - if its Undead, then it surely cannot assume the form of say...an Elemental, since thats an energy form and the Lich is made up entirely of negative energy - living things...fine, but elementals make no sense.
So by your logic then, the Lich turns into an Undead Animal, Undead Giant, (Undead?) Elemental (Maybe if its anything like those in the Libra Mortis), Undead Dragons and so forth. Since it sits with a flat Constitution of ZERO, it is dead in appearance whatever form it takes, the Disguise element means it simply looks like an undead or corpse version of whatever it assumed the form of.
You cannot have Con 0 and not be undead, so whatever form it takes, its Undead, can be blown to bits with Channel Energy, Disruption Weapons and Cure (Positive) Energy spells as well as Searing Lights and so forth. Its not going to be using that spell to pretend to be 'one of the guys' if it sits among a group of them, its going to be a corpse version one way or another of that creature (unless it facilitates this with a 'Disguise Self' or other spell to appear to be living - thats about the only way it'll manage it).
A being composed of negative energy (such as a Lich) is not going to pass for normal in any society - Vampires on the other hand are as close to living, breathing people as Undead are going to get short of using a medley of spells to hide their nature and change their form.
You are wrong in so many ways, Princess.
Yes it is still an undead and will suffer as such. However that doesn't mean its appearance is such. Appearance is a very fickle thing and easy to change even in the normal world...
Especially so for a spell that states it grants you physical form just because you look like you might have a Con score, doesn't mean you do.
By your slippery slope argument I would also be stating that a human beast shaped into a lion would look like a "human lion" since he is still a humaniod type.
Which I'm not saying. I'm saying it specifically grants you form, it specifically grants abilities it states you get, and it does nothing to your type, because it doesn't specifically change your type, and doesn't need to.
You are still what you were before the spell, you simply look different, and gain some new abilities thanks to the spell, it still does nothing to alter your type.
Alright, well maybe I tend to think in terms of 3.5 too much, that was a slippery slope of endless arguements.
"Being Human and using Polymorph means I lose my bonus feat?" was one such conundrum I heard over and over from people writing into things like Dragon Magazine and forums.
Fair enough, the Lich assumes the form and retains its old type. Only thing that slightly confuses me is the [Elemental Shape] spells when applied to a Lich, given that Lich's are powered by negative energy and Elementals are beings that lack a real anatomy and are fuelled by elemental energies. Those spells open up with the wording "You can assume the form of a small air, earth, fire or water elemental" whereas [Form Of The Dragon] just simply states "You become a medium chromatic or metalic dragon"
It'd make more sense to have it written the same way to say "You assume the form of a medium size chromatic or metallic dragon"
Thats where my confusion partially lay with the different wordings.
Probably a bad choice of wording on the form of the dragon spell.
However on the lich assuming different forms -- just remember it's the spell powering the change... that's why it doesn't last that long. The lich doesn't really need any other power source since he's still what he is... it's just hidden behind the spell which is providing the different form.
You haven't really changed, you are simply using a suit of power armor basically, ala Iron Man.
Probably a bad choice of wording on the form of the dragon spell.
However on the lich assuming different forms -- just remember it's the spell powering the change... that's why it doesn't last that long. The lich doesn't really need any other power source since he's still what he is... it's just hidden behind the spell which is providing the different form.
You haven't really changed, you are simply using a suit of power armor basically, ala Iron Man.
Thanks for clarifying this - I much prefer Pathfinders Polymorph spells to 3.5 (my players hunted through every Monster Manual I owned and all splatbooks for something within their 'hit dice' range that was better than basic equivilents)
I better understand it now, this also solves a dispute with one of my players who used the spell and was used to how it worked in 3.5, I should have double-checked it, I just noticed the wording of becomes under Form Of The Dragon spells and was somewhat confused. But thanks for clearing it up.
Probably a bad choice of wording on the form of the dragon spell.
However on the lich assuming different forms -- just remember it's the spell powering the change... that's why it doesn't last that long. The lich doesn't really need any other power source since he's still what he is... it's just hidden behind the spell which is providing the different form.
You haven't really changed, you are simply using a suit of power armor basically, ala Iron Man.
Thanks for clarifying this - I much prefer Pathfinders Polymorph spells to 3.5 (my players hunted through every Monster Manual I owned and all splatbooks for something within their 'hit dice' range that was better than basic equivilents)
I better understand it now, this also solves a dispute with one of my players who used the spell and was used to how it worked in 3.5, I should have double-checked it, I just noticed the wording of becomes under Form Of The Dragon spells and was somewhat confused. But thanks for clearing it up.
I personally like how they simplified polymorph. I would always shy away from polymorph in 3.5, not so in PF :)
As simplified as it is, certain interactions were left vague as a result.
As simplified as it is, certain interactions were left vague as a result.
Which do you mean?
Generally put you lose any of the following:
Natural Attacks
Natural Armor
Natural senses
Natural Movement modes
And gain whatever the spell states that you gain. In the case of an undead caster you won't gain Con from some spells simply because you do not have a con score. It's not a con of 0 it's a lack of con and therefore you can't gain any... just like you can't lose any. This means certain abilities aren't going to be so strong for you (like poison or a breath weapon) but yeah that's part of being undead.
As simplified as it is, certain interactions were left vague as a result.Which do you mean?
Generally put you lose any of the following:
Natural Attacks
Natural Armor
Natural senses
Natural Movement modesAnd gain whatever the spell states that you gain. In the case of an undead caster you won't gain Con from some spells simply because you do not have a con score. It's not a con of 0 it's a lack of con and therefore you can't gain any... just like you can't lose any. This means certain abilities aren't going to be so strong for you (like poison or a breath weapon) but yeah that's part of being undead.
It doesn't sound like a lich loses very much when turning into a dragon.
It doesn't sound like a lich loses very much when turning into a dragon.
He doesn't. Liches are powerful creatures.
It doesn't sound like a lich loses very much when turning into a dragon.He doesn't. Liches are powerful creatures.
As are any creatures who can turn into dragons I imagine.
I'll tell you, it didn't make much sense to me when some people came on and saying the lich lost this and that when transforming into a dragon--effectively becoming weaker for having cast a high level spell.
That to me is the first red flag that they might be wrong. Casting a spell should always be beneficial to the caster.
what about a dhampir who uses Infuse Self, can he be healed by positive energy?
The dhampir's Negative Energy Affinity is not an extraordinary or supernatural ability, nor does it depend on the form the dhampir takes, so it is not lost when under the effect of a spell with polymorph subscschool. The wording of Insuse Self doesn't mention it either. That means that the ability stays, and the dhampir is still damaged by positive energu.
Just like this thread.