I have a player who's been using a somewhat modified Eidolon in my current game, and he's been asking me questions about the base form. Specifically, the options for a skilled/scout based Eidolon, or the inability to properly mimic the abilities of normal animals.
So I sat down and came up with this change. Let me know what you think.
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BASE FORMS
You may choose your eidolon's starting form. You may choose to start with a Small or Tiny sized creature instead of Medium (see Changing Form and Size for the penalties and bonus based on size).
Base Stats
Size: Medium
Speed: 20 ft.
AC: +2 natural armor
Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Evolutions: 5 points to spend on (body) evolutions
Alternative Starting Scores
Strong: Str +2, Dex -2
Agile: Dex +2, Str -2
Tough: Con +2, Dex -2
Cunning: All mental stats +2, all physical stats -2
Canny: One mental stat +4, Str -4
Example Evolution Packages (based on forms)
Standard Biped: claws or slam, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Standard Quadruped: bite or hooves, limbs (legs) x2
Standard Serpentine: bite (improved), climb or swim, tail, tail slap
Standard Avian: flight, limbs (legs), talons
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CHANGING FORM AND SIZE
An eidolon's form is based on it's limbs and flight evolutions. Also, an eidolon can start as either Medium, Small or Tiny, and may gain Large and Huge using the increased size evolution.
Use the following modifications when changing sizes from a Medium-sized eidolon.
Tiny
Abilities: Str -8, Dex +4
Natural Armor: -
Attack/AC: +2
CMB/CMD: -2
Skills: Fly +4, Stealth +8
Damage reduced by two steps
+8 evolution points
Small
Abilities: Str -4, Dex +2
Natural Armor: -
Attack/AC: +1
CMB/CMD: -1
Skills: Fly +2, Stealth +4
Damage reduced by one step
+4 evolution points
Large
Abilities: Str +8, Dex -2
Natural Armor: +2
Attack/AC: -1
CMB/CMD: +1
Skills: Fly -2, Stealth -4
Damage increased by one step
Reach increased to 10 feet (if tall)
Huge
Abilities: Str +16, Dex -4
Natural Armor: +5
Attack/AC: -2
CMB/CMD: +2
Skills: Fly -4, Stealth -8
Damage increased by two steps
Reach increased to 15 feet (if tall) or 10 feet (if long)
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NEW AND ALTERED EVOLUTIONS
The following evolutions have been altered to allow for greater access to animal forms, and to streamline the "forms" and how natural attacks work with them.
Evolutions that qualify for starting forms have the tag (body) next to their name. All damage listed is for Medium sized eidolons. Increase or decrease the damage accordingly for different sized eidolons.
Bite (Ex, body): The eidolon gains a beak or a mouth full of sharpened teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack that deals 1d6 damage. An eidolon that does not possess any limbs (arms) may use their bite to manipulate or hold objects, although they can use it to wield weapons.
A second point can be spent to increase the strength of the jaw, granting 1-1/2 times it's Strength modifier on damage rolls with this bite.
Claws (Ex, body): The eidolon gains a pair of claws at the end of two limbs, granting it the potential of claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks that deal 1d4 damage. This evolution can be selected more than once, however each time it applies to a new set of limbs.
Claws that are placed on limbs (legs) are not immediately usable for attacks, and require additional evolutions (see rear and rake evolutions).
Climb (Ex, body): Otherwise unchanged.
Flying Maneuvers (Ex): The eidolon becomes adept at flying maneuvers. It gains the Hover and Wingover feats as bonus feats. The eidolon must have the flight evolution with the wings option to choose this evolution.
Hooves (Ex, body): The eidolon gains 4 hooves, placed on two sets of limbs (legs). One combination of two hooves can be used as a natural attack in a round, as if you have the rear evolution. These attacks are considered secondary attacks that deal 1d4 damage.
If the eidolon only has one set of limbs (legs), he gains no natural attacks, but instead increases his base speed by +10 feet as if he had improved the legs (see the limbs evolution for details).
Pincers (Ex, body): Otherwise unchanged.
Pounce (Ex): The eidolon gains quick reflexes, allowing it to make a full attack after a charge. The eidolon must have two or more sets of limbs (legs), or an improved limbs (legs) to gain this evolution.
Rake (Ex): The eidolon gains the ability to make 2 rake attacks on foes it is grappling. The eidolon must have the claws or talon evolution on at least one set of limbs (legs) to gain this evolution. The two rake attacks are treated as normal claw or talon attacks (primary attack and 1d6 or 1d4 damage), and they must not have the rear evolution.
Rear (Ex): The eidolon gains the ability to use natural weapons associated with legs normally. This may not be applied to the first set of limbs (legs) on a creature.
Slam (Ex, body): Pretty much unchanged, except taking out the part about replacing claws, since there is no default "must choose" package for starting forms.
Stinger (Ex, body): Pretty much unchanged, except an added clause: "A tail that possesses both a tail slap and a sting evolution may only use one or the other in a single round."
This is because a tail slap can be used to trip (my addition), and a stinger can be used to poison. Also, they can do different damage types (piercing vs bludgeoning), etc.
It also makes sense that a single tail can have both, but not use both at the same time.
Swim (Ex, body): The eidolon gains webbed hands or feet, powerful flippers or fins, giving it a swim speed of 20 feet. Any limbs (legs) that grant a bonus to land speed also grant a bonus to swim speed.
Alternatively, if the eidolon does not have any limbs that provide increased movement, swimming is considered their primary mode of movement. This increases the base swim speed to 40 feet, and lowers the land speed to 10 feet.
The undead construct's swim speed can be increased by spending additional points, gaining a 20 foot increase to speed for each additional point spent.
Tail (Ex, body): Pretty much unchanged, except the added clause about the +2 Acrobatics bonus to balance checks: "This bonus stacks with the racial bonus from the skilled evolution."
Tail Slap (Ex, body): Pretty much unchanged, except for the added clause similar to the Stinger entry.
Talon (Ex, body): The eidolon gains two talons at the end of a set of legs, granting two additional natural attacks. These attacks may be used immediately if the eidolon does not have any other limbs (legs), however the legs lose the ability to grant +10 speed.
If the legs are not used for movement (due to a swim or fly speed), the eidolon may use the talons to hold or manipulate objects, however they do not allow wielding a weapon.
Tentacle (Ex, body): Pretty much the same except an added clause: "This evolution does not require any limbs, and can be selected more than once. A tentacle can be used to manipulate or hold objects as a normal hand might, however it cannot wield weapons. If an additional point is spent, the tentacle becomes slightly longer and stronger, allowing it to wield weapons as well.
Wing Buffet (Ex, body): Otherwise unchanged.
Flight (Ex, body or Su): The eidolon has a pair of large wings, like those of a bat, bird, insect or dragon, granting them the ability to fly. The eidolon gains a fly speed of 20 feet. Alternatively, if the eidolon does not have any limbs (legs) that provide increased movement, flight is considered their primary mode of movement. This increases the base fly speed to 40 feet, and lowers the land speed to 10 feet, and it's base form is considered avian.
The eidolon's maneuverability depends on their size. Medium or smaller eidolons have good maneuverability. Large eidolons have average maneuverability. Huge eidolons have poor maneuverability. For 2 additional points, the eidolon flies by means of magic. It does not have wings, but it's maneuverability increases to perfect. Flying by magical means makes this a supernatural ability, and is not considered a body evolution.
The eidolon's fly speed can be increased by spending additional points, gaining a 20 foot increase to speed for each additional point spent. You must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution, unless flight is the primary mode of travel for the eidolon.
Gore (Ex, body): The eidolon gains a number of horns on its head, giving it a gore attack. This is a primary attack that deals 1d6 damage.
At 5th level, if an additional point is spent, the eidolon gains the powerful charge special ability. On a successful charge, the gore attack deals double the natural attack damage (2d6 if Medium, 2d8 if Large, etc), and deals 1-1/2 times Strength damage. No other damage modifiers are increased.
Limbs (Ex, body): The eidolon gains an additional set of limbs. These limbs can be either arms or legs, gaining specific bonuses for each. In either case, evolutions may be associated to each set of limbs to gain natural attacks, although legs do not gain the attacks automatically.
If chosen as legs, they come complete with feet. They grant a +10 bonus to land speed. You may instead spend points to increase the speed gained from one set of existing legs by +10 per point.
If chosen as arms, they come complete with hands. They may be used to wield weapons or manipulate objects normally.
The eidolon has a base form based on it's limbs. If the eidolon has two or more limbs (legs), or if it has none, it is considered a quadruped or serpentine respectively, and treated as long. If the eidolon has only one set of limbs (legs) it is considered a biped and tall. If limbs (arms) are added to a quadruped or serpentine form, it is treated as tall.
If the eidolon has a different primary mode of movement, their form is either serpentine or avian, depending on if they have swim or fly speed as their primary movement. They are still treated as long, unless they also have limbs (arms).
Trip (Ex): Pretty much unchanged, except that it can be associated with either the bite or tail slap evolutions (must be chosen). I'm considering allowing the tentacle one too (maybe only if the tentacle also has reach?).
It makes more sense that it would have access to this, as a swipe with a tail just seems like it could be easily transferred into a trip attempt.
Increased Size (Ex): The eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains bonus and penalties to various physical aspects (see Changing Form and Size). The summoner must be at least 6th level in order to select this evolution.
If 6 additional evolution points are spent, the eidolon instead becomes Huge, gaining further bonus and penalties. The summoner must be at least 11th level to select this evolution.
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I apologize for the length of this, and hope people read it despite the spoilers and tons of text. I've limited rewriting too much (in the "mostly unchanged" section), however some of them needed a complete rewrite.
I plan on having my player use these rules for his eidolon, so any feedback on balance would be appreciated.
Obviously, I have no playtesting feedback ATM, but I like this setup. One problem I foresee with flight and the avian form set up...If I don't bother with limbs (legs) as part of the base, does my eidolon suddenly get slower at flight if I add them later?
Also, can the alternate ability scores be stacked (in particular, canny and cunning)? And I think Canny should be a-4 to any physical, not forced into Strength.
Some examples...
Mimicking the Lion
Limbs (legs) x2 (4 points)
Bite (1 point) with Grab (2 points)
Claws x2 (2 points) with Rear (1 point) and Rake (1 point)
Pounce (1 point)
Scent (1 point)
Skilled (Stealth) (1 point)
Total Points: 14 (10th level minimum for all the abilities)
There we go. He now has a Bite and 2 Claws as his normal attack routine, he can pounce, and if he succeeds on his bite, he gets to initiate a grapple and get his rake attacks too. Plus the scent ability, 40' movement, and the extra bonus to Stealth to boot.
If you chose a "Strong" starting score set, and Constitution for the two Ability Score increases, he'd have 20 Str, 16 Dex and 15 Con, which is pretty much the same modifiers as the Lion as well.
All legal, with no fudging the rules (well, my suggested rule changes).
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Mimicking a Hawk
Starting as Tiny (Str 6, Dex 18)
13 Evolutions to play with (5 must be body evolutions)
Limbs (legs) (2 points)
Flight (3 points, primary mode of movement, 60' fly, 10' land)
Talons (1 point) (mostly for holding things, it's 1d2 damage)
Skilled (Perception) (1 point)
And then 6 more points for other abilities. Such as the follwing:
- Increase mental stats (+2 Int and +2 Wis for skills). This would cost 4 points total, and doable at 1st level.
- Give the skilled evolution to any skills you want boosted. Start with a +20 Stealth check before any ranks! Disable Device with your talons! Etc, etc...
- Give some survivability with resistances (1 point per type)
- Give it a spell-like ability for some added utility (at will cantrips like message or mage hand on a scout/infiltrator do wonders).
That's a pretty good 1st level utility eidolon if you ask me. Maybe the bonus evolution points on Tiny need to be toned back, since the loss in Strength and damage basically makes it's focus somewhere else.
Obviously, I have no playtesting feedback ATM, but I like this setup. One problem I foresee with flight and the avian form set up...If I don't bother with limbs (legs) as part of the base, does my eidolon suddenly get slower at flight if I add them later?
Also, can the alternate ability scores be stacked (in particular, canny and cunning)?
The "fly as a primary mode of movement" is a choice. With this choice, your legs never grant a +10 movement to speed. Hence why talons on those legs can hold things.
I could probably make that clearer. Adding legs would simply add more natural attack possibilities with talons, etc. If you want, you can change it at a later time to simply be normal flight with a land speed, when you change your eidolon again.
I forgot to put in the Con changes for size changes. It should be as follows (remember, these are based on changing from Medium to this size):
Tiny: Con -2
Small: Con -2
Large: +4
Huge: +8
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I'm starting to think that since Tiny is so detached from combat (has to enter space to make an attack, damaged reduced severely and Str reduced severely), you are likely going to build him with utility in mind.
Since a number of changes between Tiny and Small don't happen (no extra Con or Nat Armor changes), while the bonuses they will be looking for now (skill increases) doubled, I think they might not need much more evolution points over Small.
Perhaps +5 or +6 instead of the +8? That would still give a fairly strong utility eidolon at 1st level for sacrificing basically all combat ability.
Instead of saying people start with Small or Tiny Eidolon; I would suggest that changing the size of your Eidolon to Tiny would be an evolution pick.
You keep the tested rules of Small and Medium for people that want a Guard or Attack Eidolon but you allow people that want to move towards a smaller form to have an option to do so at a later level.
Druids can not do tiny forms at first.
There are some good advantages in stealth in a tiny form (cat, rat, and monkey size).
There might be people that would even like to pay evolution points to go to the diminutive level (bats and toads).
I would suggest that at the same level a summoner can choose to increase their Eidolon to Large size that they can choose to go to Tiny size.
I would also suggest that going to Diminutive size is at the same size as Huge size.
Also, when pricing the evolutions, you need to make sure to think on what happens when the Summoner gets access to the Evolution points (Aspect) and what they will do to themselves.
your idea as i see it is fairly impressive, i like the primary movement and the ways to get any evolution, i think you do need to scale back the bonus EP for going tiny and both tiny and huge need to be for later levels. I think the flying manuevers evolution is a bit overpowered, it is two whole feats for just one EP...and going huge shouldn't cost so much, they won't be able to fit in most places at that size anyway.
@Kaisoku
A question have I!
First of all, I really like what you've done here. I was trying to come up with something similar myself, but you beat me to it.
Now, on to the question.
I have been working on a class based in large part on the Summoner. This class is meant to represent a character who can transform himself into a "monster" of one sort or another. Kinda like a werewolf, only not a race, and can be used to represent any number of other things as well (such as a "wizard" who's only learned one spell -- to transform himself into a hideous abomination -- or a "half-devil" who can take on the form of her devil parent.
So my question, then, is if you'd be willing to allow me to take your work here and integrate it into my own. I plan on posting the class up on the homebrew forum when I'm done with it (which may take a bit, it's been more work than I thought when I started.)
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this. I'm looking forward to seeing more.
@Inverse Rain
Go ahead! That sounds like a perfect way of doing a shifter class! I could see it fitting any shapeshifter oriented character concept (druid wildshaping, arcane caster polymorphing, lycanthropy gone amuck, etc).
I was basically using the Eidolon rules and reorganizing it, so my only real contribution here is that it's in a different, more customizable setup. So yeah, no problems with you using the idea for your class.
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@Ceefood
I'm just making changes to the base forms (and subsequently some of the evolutions to make it fit the idea).
The actual chart for BAB, Saves, Skills, etc, would all stay the same (although if you start with higher Int due to the ability score change, you could end up with more skillpoints).
So saves would still be the same as the standard Eidolon.
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@Kyranor and Smerg (Tiny at later levels)
The problem I'm seeing here is that Familiars allow for a Tiny or Diminuative animal right off the bat.
This ability isn't like the Druid wildshaping ability, so it's not appropriate to compare, I think. While Tiny in the hands of a primary caster might be amazing (huge bonuses to stealth, getting places, etc), this is being used on a companion instead.
For example, a Wizard can start off at level 1 with a Diminutive Flying creature (a Bat). Tiny flyers, like raven, hawk or owl, also exist.
Arcane casters can get this utility right from the get go, so I don't see a problem with doing it for the summoner.
However, it does drive home the idea that Tiny (or even Diminutive) are not going to be used for combat. Since that's the case, missing out on evolutions meant to give more combat ability isn't exactly a loss, nor is the sudden loss in Strength score.
What I could see instead is to have a different set of Ability Scores for a purchase cost, with a minimum Summoner level.
3-Point Evolution
Non-combatant (Ex): The eidolon is refocused away from a combat brute, and more towards a skilled or adept role. The eidolon's starting ability scores become Str 7, Dex 14, Con 9, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 14. You may choose to lower any one mental score by 2 to improve another one by 2. The eidolon no longer gains a Str bonus with levels, and instead gains half the bonus towards one mental score. The strength reduction from changing to Small or Tiny sizes is reduced by half, however they no longer gain additional evolution points.
You must not have the Improved Size evolution to select this evolution. The summoner must be at least 5th level to select this evolution.
This gives you the following scores:
Medium Str 7, Dex 14, Con 9, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 14
Small Str 5, Dex 16, Con 9, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 14
Tiny Str 3, Dex 18, Con 9, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 14
I'd also change the Tiny evolution to give no additional evolution points over Small (just the 4, to match the opposing cost of 4 for Large).
If you are making a Tiny creature, it's likely going to be for utility, so you'll be going for Non-Combatant anyways, and not be getting any extra evolution points.
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@Kyranor (other comments)
I was under the impression that Perfect maneuverability bypassed the need for fly checks for things like "maintaining flight while moving less than speed" or hovering, and didn't need to spend movement to turn, etc.
Since it's more like levitation or windwalking, rather than flight with air passing under wings, I just assumed it worked this way still.
Having reread the Fly skill, and checking the bestiary for any other information, it seems that if you fly through levitation, you can't do those things anymore (beholder must be crying big anti-magic tears).
If this is the case, then yes, I can see the cost being too little. Maybe 1 point per feat then? Or maybe you need to buy both feats at once at a 2 point cost?
3 points just seems like a bit much (unless you are getting into including fly-by attack).
Regarding the cost of Huge... you are getting +16 Strength and +8 Con, along with 2 size upgrades for your damage (weapon and natural). That's getting into the double dice area, which makes the Vital Strike line ever so much more powerful. Not to mention +5 Natural armor bonus (stacking with the classes normal advancement), as well as reach (in my suggested changes, Huge actually gets access to 15' reach).
The detriments (-4 Dex, -2 Attack/AC, and -skills) really doesn't matter since most of it is countered elsewhere anyways (the eidolon gets +Dex with levels automatically, and Str counters -attack), and the skill loss on skills he's not going to use isn't a cost.
So yeah, I think 2 extra points over what's listed is worth it. Especially since this is obtainable at 11th level (which I figured out in another thread, would cost something like 180,000gp item on a normally large creature).
Honestly, I'm seriously considering not allowing Huge at all.. or at least, not in a permanent/continuous fashion.
Maybe as a "hulk gets angrier" method, where for a number of rounds per day he gets an increased bonus to strength and a longer reach, but no other changes and not permanent.
Then I could see it being reasonable to gain at all, and worth a lower cost.
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@Ceefood
I'm just making changes to the base forms (and subsequently some of the evolutions to make it fit the idea).
The actual chart for BAB, Saves, Skills, etc, would all stay the same (although if you start with higher Int due to the ability score change, you could end up with more skillpoints).
So saves would still be the same as the standard Eidolon.
since you dont have baseforms anymore & you get to make your own based on this there is no standard form from which the saves come from like quadraped or biped
unless I am reading wrong & you are keeping the baseforms in which case the section allowing for body parts seems like added evo pts
please correct me if I am wrong or reading wrong
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please correct me if I am wrong or reading wrong
First, Kaisoku, this is awesome. The best stuff just got better.
Second, Ceefood is right. On page 35 of the APG, on the left, you'll see that base saves are given to the different forms.
However, each form receives two good saves and one bad, so the easiest solution, under your system, would be to just allow the player to choose two saves which are good and one that is bad.
Oohhh! I get it now.. yeah, I can see what you mean.
Yeah, it would probably be easiest to just decide which two are the good saves.
You could maybe make it based on the alternative ability score package, however it's not always obvious which ones should be high or low, and people will have differing opinions.