Cheatsheet: Druid Changes in Wildshape


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Fact check request:

As I am currently running a druid, I frequently find myself trying to figure out adjusted stats in Wildshape. Several things factor in: size changes apply benefits and penalties to AC, To-Hit, and Damage (and reverse that trend for CMBs); strength and dex changes also modify combat stats. Natural armor is applied; etc.

To that end, I've tried compiling the total changes. These values are the total change to each stat; thus, if a druid has a +9 to To-Hit (TH) and they change into a diminutive animal, they end with a +11 TH.

To calculate these values for small druids, subtract 1 from the TH and AC values, and add 1 to the CMB and CMD changes.

*AC is starred because it presumes wild armor. If your armor or shield are not wild, subtract the value of the armor.

I have a more thorough spreadsheet showing my math, as well, if anyone's interested...I wouldn't be surprised to see an error or two.

Thoughts? Something I'm missing?

Diminutive Animal : Dam= -2 TH= 2 AC*= 8 CMB= -6 CMD= -3
Tiny Animal : Dam= -1 TH= 1 AC*= 5 CMB= -3 CMD= -1
Small Animal : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 3 CMB= -1 CMD= 0
Medium Animal : Dam= 1 TH= 1 AC*= 2 CMB= 1 CMD= 1
Large Animal : Dam= 2 TH= 1 AC*= 2 CMB= 3 CMD= 2
Huge Animal : Dam= 3 TH= 1 AC*= 2 CMB= 5 CMD= 3

Small Air Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 4 CMB= -1 CMD= 0
Medium Air Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 0 AC*= 5 CMB= 0 CMD= 2
Large Air Elem : Dam= 1 TH= 0 AC*= 5 CMB= 2 CMD= 4
Huge Air Elem : Dam= 2 TH= 0 AC*= 5 CMB= 4 CMD= 7

Small Earth Elem : Dam= 1 TH= 2 AC*= 5 CMB= 0 CMD= 0
Medium Earth Elem : Dam= 2 TH= 2 AC*= 5 CMB= 2 CMD= 2
Large Earth Elem : Dam= 3 TH= 2 AC*= 4 CMB= 4 CMD= 3
Huge Earth Elem : Dam= 4 TH= 2 AC*= 3 CMB= 6 CMD= 5

Small Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 4 CMB= -1 CMD= 0
Medium Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 0 AC*= 5 CMB= 0 CMD= 2
Large Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= -1 AC*= 5 CMB= 1 CMD= 3
Huge Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= -2 AC*= 5 CMB= 2 CMD= 5

Small Water Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 5 CMB= -1 CMD= -1
Medium Water Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 0 AC*= 5 CMB= 0 CMD= 0
Large Water Elem : Dam= 1 TH= 0 AC*= 4 CMB= 2 CMD= 1
Huge Water Elem : Dam= 2 TH= 0 AC*= 3 CMB= 4 CMD= 3

Small Plant : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 3 CMB= -1 CMD= -1
Medium Plant : Dam= 1 TH= 1 AC*= 2 CMB= 1 CMD= 1
Large Plant : Dam= 2 TH= 1 AC*= 3 CMB= 3 CMD= 3
Huge Plant : Dam= 4 TH= 2 AC*= 3 CMB= 6 CMD= 5

Example math:

Diminutive animal:
Size mod to AC/TH: +4
Size mod to CMB: -4
STR: -4
DEX: +6
CON: 0
Damage from STR: -2
TOTAL DAMAGE CHANGE: -2
To-Hit from STR: -2
TOTAL TO-HIT CHANGE: -2 + 4 = +2
Natural Armor: +1
AC from DEX: 3
TOTAL AC CHANGE: 1 + 3 + 4 = +8
CMB from STR: -2
[b]TOTAL CMB CHANGE: -2 - 4 = -6

CMD from STR: -2
CMD from DEX:+3
TOTAL CMD CHANGE: -2 + 3 -4 = -3

Thanks,
~Fizzlebolt


Wish it could be boiled down this simply.

Your ac <> touch ac <> flat-footed ac, so these would be calculated separately.

In addition, the following factors are also changed:
1) Reflex Save / Fort Save, and if memory serves, Will Saves are oftentimes moot
2) HP can change (particularly if you're a water elemental)
3) Skill bonuses change
4) Number and type of attacks (remember that you have to back out improved natural attack[s] if the base critter has the feat)
5) Special abilities, senses, attacks
6) CMD versus trip can be affected (look at the picture of the medium earth elemental - four legs)

I'm sure there's a whole lot more, but I think this still needs a good bit of work.

One rule I think Paizo should've adopted would've been to unify the amount of damage the druid deals with one type of natural attack versus another.
(Claw does this. Bite does this. Slam does this. Wing Buffet does this. Scale according to size.)

A comprehensive fancy slider cheat sheet would be welcome. Perhaps I should make and sell one.


Takamonk wrote:

Wish it could be boiled down this simply.

Your ac <> touch ac <> flat-footed ac, so these would be calculated separately.

In addition, the following factors are also changed:
1) Reflex Save / Fort Save, and if memory serves, Will Saves are oftentimes moot
2) HP can change (particularly if you're a water elemental)
3) Skill bonuses change
4) Number and type of attacks (remember that you have to back out improved natural attack[s] if the base critter has the feat)
5) Special abilities, senses, attacks
6) CMD versus trip can be affected (look at the picture of the medium earth elemental - four legs)

Xi ) The ac values are derived...but I could show at least a column indicating what to do to get them. Unless I make my spreadsheet into a more interactive resource (which I suppose I could do) these will have to be done per char.

1,2,3) I actually have these values in the spreadsheet I used to generate this chart. Skill bonus changes are a little ugly to display--at the moment I'm just going with "str-based skills" etc. Just trimmed it out for space purposes...

4,5,6) These are getting into the rabid-detail level; while a full outline would be cool, for the most part these are (like armor) specific cases (once you've looked up the number and kind of attscks a lion has, for instance, you have all the info you need...just have to calculate damage bonuses. That said, I think ill add a section summarizing abilities per beast-shape level, and perhaps a few notes of other modifiers like legs--good point!

At work right now, but I'll try to toss up an update this evening, and perhaps make the spreadsheet available. I dont really intend to make the bestiary unnecessary--just to make it easier to apply the stat changes as a unified whole.

Other thoughts? Are folks even interested, or am I overthinking it? ;)


Also remember, "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability." So if you turn into a Dire Wolf that has a natural armor of 3 you only get 3. The spell allows for up to 4, but you are limited by the form you are taking.


Enkili wrote:
Also remember, "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability." So if you turn into a Dire Wolf that has a natural armor of 3 you only get 3. The spell allows for up to 4, but you are limited by the form you are taking.

I'm not sure that's the case--i believe that portion refers to the abilities of the monster; the natural armor bonus, like the strength, is a flat bonus. (Natural armor is not one of the listed abilities; rather, it us listed separately, with the ability score enhancements).

Liberty's Edge

Fizzlebolt wrote:
Enkili wrote:
Also remember, "If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability." So if you turn into a Dire Wolf that has a natural armor of 3 you only get 3. The spell allows for up to 4, but you are limited by the form you are taking.
I'm not sure that's the case--i believe that portion refers to the abilities of the monster; the natural armor bonus, like the strength, is a flat bonus. (Natural armor is not one of the listed abilities; rather, it us listed separately, with the ability score enhancements).

Fizzlebolt is correct. The Natural Armor bonus is clearly listed with the Strength and Dexterity bonuses. It's one of the fixed values that is dependent on size but independent on form.

Beast Shape 1


Below, I've added STR, DEX, and Con bonuses, as well as sections for Touch and flatfooted AC. [edit: added Touch/FF] [edit2: correct Touch/FF].

Keep in mind: These are changes to existing values, not total values. That means that Touch=2 doesn't mean a touch AC of 2, but a touch AC of 2 higher than TouchAC prior to wildshape.

Going to try to get a website up with these values (and the spreadsheet) soon.

Additional thoughts? Is there anyone with the devotion to turn this into something prettier and more useful? I can go ahead and mail you the .xls in advance, if so.

Furthermore--how's my math? I wouldn't be surprised if I've missed something...

Wild Shape Bonuses
Wild Shape Bonuses Wild Shape Bonuses
Diminutive Animal : Dam= -2 TH= 2 AC*= 8 Touch= 7 Flatfoot= 5 CMB= -6 CMD= -3 StrSkills= -2 DexSkills/Ref= 3 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Tiny Animal : Dam= -1 TH= 1 AC*= 5 Touch= 4 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= -3 CMD= -1 StrSkills= -1 DexSkills/Ref= 2 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Small Animal : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 3 Touch= 2 Flatfoot= 2 CMB= -1 CMD= 0 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Medium Animal : Dam= 1 TH= 1 AC*= 2 Touch= 0 Flatfoot= 2 CMB= 1 CMD= 1 StrSkills= 1 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Large Animal : Dam= 2 TH= 1 AC*= 2 Touch= -2 Flatfoot= 2 CMB= 3 CMD= 2 StrSkills= 2 DexSkills/Ref= -1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Huge Animal : Dam= 3 TH= 1 AC*= 2 Touch= -4 Flatfoot= 2 CMB= 5 CMD= 3 StrSkills= 3 DexSkills/Ref= -2 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0

Small Air Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 4 Touch= 2 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= -1 CMD= 0 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Medium Air Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 0 AC*= 5 Touch= 2 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 0 CMD= 2 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 2 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Large Air Elem : Dam= 1 TH= 0 AC*= 5 Touch= 1 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 2 CMD= 4 StrSkills= 1 DexSkills/Ref= 2 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Huge Air Elem : Dam= 2 TH= 0 AC*= 5 Touch= 1 Flatfoot= 2 CMB= 4 CMD= 7 StrSkills= 2 DexSkills/Ref= 3 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0

Small Earth Elem : Dam= 1 TH= 2 AC*= 5 Touch= 1 Flatfoot= 5 CMB= 0 CMD= 0 StrSkills= 1 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Medium Earth Elem : Dam= 2 TH= 2 AC*= 5 Touch= 0 Flatfoot= 5 CMB= 2 CMD= 2 StrSkills= 2 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Large Earth Elem : Dam= 3 TH= 2 AC*= 4 Touch= -2 Flatfoot= 4 CMB= 4 CMD= 3 StrSkills= 3 DexSkills/Ref= -1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 1
Huge Earth Elem : Dam= 4 TH= 2 AC*= 3 Touch= -3 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 6 CMD= 5 StrSkills= 4 DexSkills/Ref= -1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 2

Small Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 4 Touch= 2 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= -1 CMD= 0 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Medium Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 0 AC*= 5 Touch= 2 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 0 CMD= 2 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 2 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 0
Large Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= -1 AC*= 5 Touch= 1 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 1 CMD= 3 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 2 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 1
Huge Fire Elem : Dam= 0 TH= -2 AC*= 5 Touch= 1 Flatfoot= 2 CMB= 2 CMD= 5 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 3 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 2

Small Water Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 5 Touch= 1 Flatfoot= 5 CMB= -1 CMD= -1 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 1
Medium Water Elem : Dam= 0 TH= 0 AC*= 5 Touch= 0 Flatfoot= 5 CMB= 0 CMD= 0 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 2
Large Water Elem : Dam= 1 TH= 0 AC*= 4 Touch= -2 Flatfoot= 4 CMB= 2 CMD= 1 StrSkills= 1 DexSkills/Ref= -1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 3
Huge Water Elem : Dam= 2 TH= 0 AC*= 3 Touch= -3 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 4 CMD= 3 StrSkills= 2 DexSkills/Ref= -1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 3

Small Plant : Dam= 0 TH= 1 AC*= 3 Touch= 1 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= -1 CMD= -1 StrSkills= 0 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 1
Medium Plant : Dam= 1 TH= 1 AC*= 2 Touch= 0 Flatfoot= 2 CMB= 1 CMD= 1 StrSkills= 1 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 1
Large Plant : Dam= 2 TH= 1 AC*= 3 Touch= -1 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 3 CMD= 3 StrSkills= 2 DexSkills/Ref= 0 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 1
Huge Plant : Dam= 4 TH= 2 AC*= 3 Touch= -3 Flatfoot= 3 CMB= 6 CMD= 5 StrSkills= 4 DexSkills/Ref= -1 ConSkills/Fort/HP-Per-Lvl= 2


Corrected: I forgot that you use your dexterity bonus "IF ANY" to flat footed AC. Added a conditional that adds in the negative DEX to flat footed AC if the DEX is less than 0. Does that sound correct?

The Exchange

Fizzlebolt wrote:
Going to try to get a website up with these values (and the spreadsheet) soon.

I seem to recall a site where this might be a good fit...

Spoiler:
If you want to join the crew just email me a Google ID.


I made one but yours is much better. I wish I would have found this sooner.

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