Confused by Kineticist Burn

[Shib]

Hi all,

I’m trying to wrap my head around how the kineticist from OA works. I have a player who is really excited to create one, but I guess I’m having a stupid day because I can’t quite conceptualize how burn is supposed to work.

Question 1: What is the hard limit for burn? Is it a) the amount of nonlethal damage a character can take or b) 3 + Constitution modifier? The rulebook seems to rather clearly suggest b, but I don’t quite understand why burn is tied to nonlethal damage if there’s already a hard limit associated with it that doesn’t connect to your current level of nonlethal damage? Are these two separate things?

Question 2: On a related note, what is the point of increasing the amount of nonlethal damage (“For each point of burn she accepts, a kineticist takes 1 point of nonlethal damage per character level”) if there’s already a hard limit on burn at 3 + Con?

I think I’m misunderstanding how burn and burn management would work. I’d appreciate any clarification y’all could offer. Either it’s unclear in the rulebook or I’m just not practicing good reading comprehension :)

[vhok]

you seem to understand it. if your level 5 1 burn is 5 non-lethal. so if you have 40HP and 2 burn your basically at 30hp till you sleep because 10 non-lethal will knock you out if you hit 30 lethal damage. having burn tied into non-lethal damage was a terrible idea and makes the class much harder to use.

1. there are 2 hard limits 3+con mod or until it just strait knocks you out because it stacks with lethal damage

2. at higher levels 1 non-lethal per burn would of been nothing and pointless and they wanted you to feel the burn.

[Wraithguard]

For the sake of precision.

PRD wrote:

Burn (Ex): At 1st level, a kineticist can overexert herself to channel more power than normal, pushing past the limit of what is safe for her body by accepting burn. Some of her wild talents allow her to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect, while others require her to accept a certain amount of burn to use that talent at all. For each point of burn she accepts, a kineticist takes 1 point of nonlethal damage per character level. This damage can't be healed by any means other than getting a full night's rest, which removes all burn and associated nonlethal damage. Nonlethal damage from burn can't be reduced or redirected, and a kineticist incapable of taking nonlethal damage can't accept burn. A kineticist can accept only 1 point of burn per round. This limit rises to 2 points of burn at 6th level, and rises by 1 additional point every 3 levels thereafter. A kineticist can't choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier (though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control). A kineticist who has accepted burn never benefits from abilities that allow her to ignore or alter the effects she receives from nonlethal damage.

There are hard limits on:

a) Burn per round (rises slowly by level)
b) Accepted Burn per day (rises with Con modifier)

Important notes:
a) Every point of burn gives you non-lethal damage based on your character level, not Kineticist level.
b) Since this non-lethal damage cannot be removed until you rest for the day, your effective HP will almost always be lower than your maximum HP, even when you are fully healed of lethal damage.

This help?

[Texas Snyper]

Q1: The hard limit on burn per round is set by the class and based on level. The hard limit on maximum burn is 3 + CON.

Q2: It makes the burn cost relevant and equal as your character levels up (assuming no multiclassing). Basically 1 burn = -1 CON mod for the day, which is fine since the class loves and stacks CON like a madman.

[Imbicatus]

However, elemental overflow raises your effective constitution, allowing you to offset the burn damage, and take even more burn when necessary.

[Milo v3]

I removed the limit on how much burn my kineticist player could take in a day and just let him decide how risky he wants to be + one less thing to take care of.

[GeneticDrift]

at lvl 1 you might be able to have 6 points of burn. Each point of burn deals one unhealable damage.

Burn causes nonleathal damage but they are different things.

Lvl 1 hp 12.
You decide to take a point of burn.

You now have 1 burn.
12 max hp. 1 unhealable nonleathal damage. 11 effective hp.

You do this 5 more times (taking you to your max burn)

6 burn
12 max hp
6 unhealable nonleathal damage
Effectivly 6 available hp.

At level 2 you gain 8 more HP.
Max hp 20
Max burn 6

Taking one burn:
1 burn. 2 unhealable nonleathal damage
Effictive HP 18

Taking 6 burn (through out the day)
6 burn. 12 unhealable non leathal.
Effictive HP 8

[Imbicatus]

Except you still have those hp that you "lost" from burn. They act as a buffer between unconsciousness and death. If you only had 8 hp and took 9 ho damage, you are bleeding to death, and need to make checks to stabilize. If you take twice that you may be killed outright. In your example those extra hp mean you don't need to stabilize, and you don't need to worry about bleeding out. You are actually less likely to die unless there is a Tpk, even then you might be left for dead.

Those hp don't keep you awake, but they do keep you alive.

[Taenia]

Keep in mind that effects that depend on current hit point totals are not affected by non-lethal damage. For example a Kineticist with 158 hit points and 52 non lethal damage would not be affected by a Power Word Stun.

[thaX]

The nice thing about Non-Lethal damage is that the character will pass out before his lethal damage goes below 0, in theory.

[lemeres]

1. 3+CON is pretty much the same as 'the most damage a character can take from burn'. At least if you don't specialize your build.

Lets cut off con for a minute- that balances out since you get +1 more hp/level and you can take 1 more burn per level (or -1 hp/level). So canceling those you, you get 3 burn.

Now, the class is a d8 class. The average hp per hit dice for that is 4.5 per level. So that 3 burn (-3 hp/level) is taken from 4.5/level. That means that at max burn, you have 1.5 hp/level. Or 30 hp at level 20. There are level 2 barbarians with more hp than that.

You can improve the situation with toughness and favored class bonuses... but the 3+CON limit is set there because that is pretty much most burn you can take on with minimum health. They didn't want you knocking yourself unconscious with burn and leaving you with 0 effective hp pool for the rest of the day (basically, you would be out for 24 hours).

2. The point is that you are a VERY tanky class. You use con for everything. Burn counteracts that, forcing you to use up some of your effective hp for your basic actions. It isn't completely bad- you can do most actions without taking on burn, and then just spend it on things like the earth user's DR and elemental overflow.

Basically, the system lets you have some ability to nova and send out big old blasts that carry a lot of sepcial effects from infusions... but if you want to shoot things out like a wizard, you get wizard HP. So you must decide- will you sacrifice tank-i-ness for a moment of power?

[Shib]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all of your responses, it helped me understand the class a lot better.

I think I will pass this along to my buddy so he can start thinking about how he wants to play his character.

Happy to hear any other thoughts you might have, but I think my original question has been answered.