Well it's more of a "What does the cleric get that others don't?" kind of question.
Clerics get unlimited access to armor (meaning no spell failure or druid limitations) and shields. They do now need to spend a feat on heavy armor IF they want it.
d8 HD/ BAB
Full spellcasting with almost unlimited access to spells on his spell list, in addition to extra spells from two domains (meaning it is quite possible to have spells that are supposedly "wizard/sorcerer only")
Two good Saves
Special abilities: 4 domain powers, and channel energy... depending on the domain choosen possibly an extra feat.
The problem was worse in 3e/3.5e.
You have a class with two good saves (and their class abilities kinda support the attributes that increase those saves even more) who can wear heavy armour and still cast, who gets the whole spell list all at once.
And then there's magic. With the right spell selection and a little preparation, a cleric's a better fighter than a fighter - and he still gets to do magic!
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less of an issue in PFRPG, but in 3.5ed, all it took was:
Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell
Extra Turning (as many as you can reasonably add)
Nightsticks (as many as you can afford)
Cloistered Cleric Variant (in the www.d20srd.org site)
add in spells like :
Divine Favor
Divine Power
Righteous Might
Stormrage (spell compendium)
Foresight (domain)
Then, Planar Ally for something level appropriate (Planetar is a good choice...cleric casting, good fighting, angel stuff, and flight)
You now have a Full-BAB, immune to everything (with the right buff-time), flying, Large, very very strong cleric with LOTS of AC, HP, Saves, and Resistances. He also gets Bardic Knowledge, 6+int skills, and 3 Domains.
Weakness: Dispel Magic or Disjunction or Reflex Save or Die spells (almost none, except the Metacreativity Power: Ectoplasmic Cocoon).
Strengths: Everything else.
-t
less of an issue in PFRPG, but in 3.5ed, all it took was:
Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell
Extra Turning (as many as you can reasonably add)
Nightsticks (as many as you can afford)
Cloistered Cleric Variant (in the www.d20srd.org site)add in spells like :
Divine Favor
Divine Power
Righteous Might
Stormrage (spell compendium)
Foresight (domain)Then, Planar Ally for something level appropriate (Planetar is a good choice...cleric casting, good fighting, angel stuff, and flight)
You now have a Full-BAB, immune to everything (with the right buff-time), flying, Large, very very strong cleric with LOTS of AC, HP, Saves, and Resistances. He also gets Bardic Knowledge, 6+int skills, and 3 Domains.
Weakness: Dispel Magic or Disjunction or Reflex Save or Die spells (almost none, except the Metacreativity Power: Ectoplasmic Cocoon).
Strengths: Everything else.
-t
You forgot to add in travel domain to be immune to grapple, stun, snare, etc. In PF, substitute in liberation domain instead.
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Yeah, it was Libris Mortis.
The biggest problem with them is that it was ambiguous as to whether you could use multiples of them (Meaning, a crafty player could convince a DM that it was ok to use multiples). That combined with Divine Metamagic made cleric's horribly unbalanced (not counting the many good spells they had).
PFRPG reduced some of this, many of it was from changing the polymorph rules/nerfing some spells. Also since Libris Mortis isn't as available it isn't as big of a problem. I bet if you searched the WotC forums you'd probably find some great examples of overpowered clerics.
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Thanks psionichamster, have to pull that off the shelf and look it over.right. travel domain.
mine had it, forgot to mention it. also had a ring of freedom of movement, for kicks.
nightsticks were in Libris Mortis, IIRC? (google em)
-t
They essentually gave you extra turning attempts. 3 I believe. They are not broken, it is when added to Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell that people had issues.
Also, for the record, there is a big part of the Cleric being "broken" because a lot of other players wanted to have them sit back and only heal and buff. When they didn't, mostly Fighters, complained. It is not nearly as universal as they seem to make people think, in my experience, anyway.
Thanks psionichamster, have to pull that off the shelf and look it over.right. travel domain.
mine had it, forgot to mention it. also had a ring of freedom of movement, for kicks.
nightsticks were in Libris Mortis, IIRC? (google em)
-t
I played a cleric archer in 3.5, so some things to add. The most broken thing about clerics in 3.5 was persistant spell + Divine metamagic. For the cost of 3 feats, your were allowed to make your buff spells essentially permanent at the cost of a few uses of your turning attempts(which were pretty worthless in 3.5 anyhow). Even if you allowed those feats in PF, channeling is so much better in PF that I am not sure I would like wasting all my channel attempts on my buff spells.
Greater Magic Weapon gives you 50 magic arrows per day for cheap. In PF ammo no longer stacks with the weapon, so this isn't as big of a deal anymore. GMW in PF is still good for allowing you to turn your +1 flaming shock weapon into a +3 flaming shock weapon.
Pick up the key feats for your fighting style. For an archer, you need rapid shot and precise shot. For a melee, go 2 handed with power attack.
Travel domain gave you freedom of movement spell as an immediate action. In addition, you get some great mobility spells (longstrider, dimension door, teleport, etc). You can get a similar effect from the liberation domain in PF. In PF a lot of the offensive domains were heavily nerfed. You may want to look into the Holy Warrior option(give up all domain spells and abilities for d10 HD/BAB).
Divine Favor and Divine Power all stacked in 3.5. In PF, they don't stack. Further, the size bonus from righteous might does not apply to ranged attacks in PF.
Under 3.5 rules at level 12, my bow shots were doing 2d6(large longbow) + 3(enhancement from bow) +3 (enhancement from arrow) + 1d6(flaming bow) + 1d6(shock bow) +3(Divine Favor) +4(strength bonus) = 27 damage average damage per shot with 4 shots a round at +26/+26/+21/+16, and I could easily switch arrows to bypass any DR. In PF, my damage per shot would be down to around, 22.5 per shot with a full attack at +22/+22/+17.
With a melee character you can get more out of the strength bonuses gained from stacking DF, DP, and RM in 3.5. You could easily get 30+ strength, and go full round attack with a large two hander for three attacks at +26/+21/+16 for an average of 46.5 damage a swing. Throw in power attack for even more damage. In PF this would be more in the range of 35ish damage per swing with a full attack of +22/+17.
Defensive spells
Spell resistance spell gives you a spell resist of 12 + CL, essential a second save against all spells.
Spell Immunity allows you to pick a few spells you can be immune to.
In addition to offensive bonuses, Righteous might gives you natural armor, and damage reduction. Really good against lots of weak attacks.
Shield of Faith, A +3 deflection bonus at level 6 is pretty good, but it scales slowly from there. Doesn't stack with ring of protection.
Persistent Spell was the main culprit. Even without Divine Metamagic, you could use Easy Metamagic and low-level splatbook spells like conviction to get unbeatable saves, and still use one high-level slot for persistent divine power.
Another thing to watch out for is a Sentinel of Bharrai or 3.5e druid with the Vow of Poverty.
A lot harder to break the PF cleric. If you have the usual suspects as magic items (Cloak of Resistance, Belt of Giant Strength, Ring of Protection, etc.) most of your buff spells won't stack and become fairly worthless. I made the mistake of casting magic circle against evil and it ended up doing absolutely nothing. It's pretty much only good against summoned monsters and creatures that dominate.
I thought that the negative energy channeling cleric may be broken but after playing one, I don't think it is. It's powerful and arguably a better blaster than a Sorcerer but it comes at significant costs (your spells suck).
How to break a cleric?
A Storm Giant with a gargantuan 2x4 tends to work pretty well.
Divine Power / Rigteous Might / Divine Favour, were stronger and easily stackable in 3.5 PF did manage these spells a bit better and they aren't really broken now.
My favourite was the already-mentioned Divine Favour, Divine Power, Righteous Might combo, but throw in Haste from a Wizard/Bard, and take St Cuthbert's Strength and Destruction domains. One round per day, Cleric level to Strength, and one attack level to damage = insane.
I'm banned from playing Clerics. :(
Wasn't Persistent Spell gone in 3.5?
Wasn't Persistent Spell gone in 3.5?
Nope. It was a comple book add on: I believe Arcane, but it could have been Divine.
They changed the spell slot increase from SRD to the book though.
Wasn't Persistent Spell gone in 3.5?Nope. It was a comple book add on: I believe Arcane, but it could have been Divine.
They changed the spell slot increase from SRD to the book though.
That's funny. I don't remember this.
Heh.
24-hour Epic-Level Time Stop FTW.
For 3.5, Persistent Spell was in Complete Arcane and reprinted in Player's Guide to Faerun. Divine Metamagic was in Complete Divine. Nightsticks (which were extra turning uses in a can) were in Libris Mortis and (IIRC) reprinted in Magic Item Compendium.
Divine Metamagic was a 3.5 addition to make clerics even sillier. Before 3.5, the turning cheese of choice was Divine Might in Defenders of the Faith, which added +cha to weapon attacks for cha rounds. (Due to some ambiguity in DOTF, this feat was highly regarded if activating it was a non-action but not terribly interesting if it required a standard action.) Divine Might was reprinted in Complete Divine with swift-action activation but one-round duration, but Complete Divine also introduced Divine Metamagic.
Yeeeah. I had a Paladin player using Divine Might in 3.0. I used Divine Metamagic on a TON of my NPCs in 3.0 and 3.5. For some reason, I never noticed Persistent Spell. Maybe it was just that it was so freaking busted in 3.0 I completely blocked it from my sensory input.
Divine Metamagic wasn't broken as long as the DM ruled that the caster must be capable of casting the spell with the Metamagic feat applied normally. So if you can't cast the Quickened spell (eg quickened cure light wounds) because its too high a level then you can't use Divine Metamagic Quicken spell on it. Rules as written doesn't clarify one way or the other, but its the best way to balance it out without outright banning.
Divine Metamagic wasn't broken as long as the DM ruled that the caster must be capable of casting the spell with the Metamagic feat applied normally.
That's how I ruled it, and every single cleric PC still took Extend Spell... Persistent Spell... Easy Metamagic (persistent)... Divine Metamagic... Extra Turning as their first 5 feats.
Really - players never cease to amaze. I take it that you were using the errata in which locks in the metamagic feat that Divine Metamagic uses when you gain Divine Metamagic. Given you couldn't use persistent spell (+6 spell slots) or divine metamagic persistent spell until you could cast 7th level spells (13th level) why would anyone take it so early? Extend spell I get, but Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell you could hold off on until levels 9 and 12. Up until then they're dead spots. Thats quiet an investment just to have a first level spell last 24 hours. Going on this ruling at best you could do 6th level spells without investing in a way to reduce the spell slot cost of metamagic feats.
I definitely ruled that you had to have a slot that could fulfill the requirement but still divine metamagic and persistent spell was total cheese.
Ultimately the crux of the issue is that in the 3.x design process the powers that be decided that 1e style clerics were not much fun to play. You were a moderately decent melee combatant that was basically forced to reserve the majority of your spell power to function as a healbot for the rest of the party. So basically you got to be a mediocre fighter with some buffs. No wonder it was so hard to get people to play clerics.
Well 3.x changed that paradigm in a big way. You can still play the healbot gimp but few people with access to the internet fall into that trap.
Basically the cleric got to be the following
d8 HD - Good
Full Armor and Shields - Good
Simple Weapons - Decent
Two Good Saves - Good
3/4 BAB Progression - Decent
Full Casting - Excellent
Domains - Excellent
The cleric spell list got some decent improvements and while it's not as varied as the arcane spell list it's definitely not remotely horrible by any means. Further with the introduction of cheap wands you can craft yourself the healbot duties just got offloaded to the wand. You have full use of your spells to buff or blast as needed.
The calculation is that in comparing full casters the arcane list and a higher max damage dice is so much better than the divine list that the cleric gets a better HD, better armor, better weapons, and better saves than the wizard :|
And if that wasn't enough let's throw some additional benefits the clerics way in the form of cheesy feats like divine metamagic.
3.x Druid exhibits most of the same problems but gets the added benefit of being able to dump physical stats because you are just going to be animal form anyway.
Realistically the cleric should've been divided into 2 classes in 3.x a 3/4 BAB martial cleric with spell levels capped at 6 like a bard and a spellcasting focused cleric with wizard BAB, armor, weapons, and 9 levels of spells. Throw additional abilities to balance the wizard cleric list as necessary.
Unfortunately they decided to go with the overcompensate school of design and we got CoDzilla instead...
Have to admit that I have yet to see anyone run riot with a cleric, but have seen wizards tear games up again and again. I've seen a couple of druids wreak games too. I agree that DM's that allow clerics to become Clighters* with Divine Metamagic abuse would definitely be powerful and dominating, but have yet to see it other than the first Clighter. We quickly ruled as I posted above and allowed the player to change their feats if he wanted to.
* the nickname we gave clerics that tried the Persistant Righteous Might (etc) abuse.
I agree that the cleric feels like it wants to be two things. As you posted one is a warrior and part time caster and the other is a full time caster. Maybe theres a design area for PF to look into.
Heh most people complain X class is OP usually dont have DM's just say " no..." seriously i've had players try broken combos and once i see the combo, i simply say no! typically if its X spell/feat combo i revise/house rule the feat/combo AND if its a rules lawyer player whines cause he cant abuse system i point to the door! THIS is my game! my rules and if my players dont like it there welcome to find a stupid DM allows them to abuse crap!
DM's need to look at material before they allow it in game, i careful examine any and all books are brought to table. I am quick to say " no " to anything i think will ruin an encounter or game. Half of brokeness of X class is from some weird feat from some other source book. But were some base line spells i always new were broken as crap Divine might being one of them. Most of this has been fixed in pathfinder sure are still going to be optimal builds and broken combos come to light but seems to me ALOT of brokeness is still coming from old 3.5 content still being used.
Morale of this story? your the DM put your damn foot down!
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Well, lets be honest here. Clerics really don't have much in the way of good feat choices. Even as Full Casters, most Metamagic feats are poor choices for Clerics, because their spelllist is so limited. Most other magic related feats either do not apply, or are also poor choices generally, because Clerics do not usually focus on Save D.C.'s. Most of their common spells are either buffs, or not Save dependant such as Cures or similar "fix other peoples mistakes". That was the reason that Divine Metamagic was braught in, because typically Metamagic for Clerics was a pointless feat. Unlike a Wizard who could prepair one or more spells per level with metamagic feats, Cleric spells scale differently, and the cost is just too high for the benefit (generally). It would have been better to base the spell level increase on the individual spells rather than a set amount.
The other point of Divine Metamagic was to allow the Cleric to use Turning Attempts, which can be an extremely weak class ability, depending on GM style and game type. It is also easy to say that the Cleric had so much going for them, but they also have a lot going against them that a lot of people do not concider, in my opinion. A completely arbitrairy alignment rule that is all in the DM's hand. They had the largest deficiency in good prestige Classes and Feats of any core class, even less than some of the non-core classes such as Warlock. It was the hardest class to benefit much from multiclassing as other class abilities either had little to no synergy or outright forbid Cleric abilities from working, (such as Rage). The Cleric got nothing after 1st level. The Cleric might also have to spend a lot of money out of their own pocket to fix other players mistakes, but worse than that, might have to give up their own XP. Things like Greater Restoration, Raise Dead, True Res., the staple Cleric Spells. They (players and character) tended to get little respect from other players, as they where taken for granted and expected to heal, by wands for the party, not take part in fights so that other can act recklessly and have the Cleric stand by to cure whatever affliction right afterwards.
those are all good points. clerics were not overpowered. they burnt a lot of resources subverting the fighter. and they are burning money dealing with other peoples ailments. clerics, and any players willing to play them without having to draw straws should be respected better.
Ok but if we throw out all the 'supplement' stuff, and just stick to the 'official' Pathfinder stuff, is the Cleric still a broken/unbalanced class?
Ok but if we throw out all the 'supplement' stuff, and just stick to the 'official' Pathfinder stuff, is the Cleric still a broken/unbalanced class?
no, and the supplemental stuff was more compensation than it was, actually broken. it burned resources. to fix a problem with an underpowered core mechanic. i am fine with divine metamagic. i thought it was overpowered, until i realize, that clerics have to burn at least 3 feats, and spend a fortune in gold. they still have less hp than the fighter, and are taxed several rounds spent self buffing. so it's a wash.
1. I take it that you were using the errata in which locks in the metamagic feat that Divine Metamagic uses when you gain Divine Metamagic.
2. Given you couldn't use persistent spell (+6 spell slots) or divine metamagic persistent spell until you could cast 7th level spells (13th level) why would anyone take it so early?
1. Yes
2. Easy Metamagic feat = +5 spell slots, not +6. Starting at 12th level, every cleric had an all-day +4 to attacks and damage; at 17th, every cleric always had full BAB as well. Overall, a fighter could out-fight a cleric only until the cleric's persistent spells started kicking in, and everyone knew it.In Pathfinder, with Persistent Spell lost in 3.5 and a lot of the cleric's combat self-buffs cut down a notch or two, clerics seem to be using more spells as spells, and less of them as simple means to beat the fighter at his own game.
dang... from the thread title, i was expecting a string of devious responses about the necessary torture steps to get information out of a cleric. Jack Bauer style.
Greater Magic Weapon gives you 50 magic arrows per day for cheap. In PF ammo no longer stacks with the weapon, so this isn't as big of a deal anymore.
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Under 3.5 rules at level 12, my bow shots were doing 2d6(large longbow) + 3(enhancement from bow) +3 (enhancement from arrow)
Actually, Bow and ammunition didn't stack in 3.5 either. They did in 3.0 though.
Actually, Bow and ammunition didn't stack in 3.5 either. They did in 3.0 though.Greater Magic Weapon gives you 50 magic arrows per day for cheap. In PF ammo no longer stacks with the weapon, so this isn't as big of a deal anymore.
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Under 3.5 rules at level 12, my bow shots were doing 2d6(large longbow) + 3(enhancement from bow) +3 (enhancement from arrow)
Must have been 3.0 where I was doing that then.
Well, lets be honest here. Clerics really don't have much in the way of good feat choices. Even as Full Casters, most Metamagic feats are poor choices for Clerics, because their spelllist is so limited. Most other magic related feats either do not apply, or are also poor choices generally, because Clerics do not usually focus on Save D.C.'s. Most of their common spells are either buffs, or not Save dependant such as Cures or similar "fix other peoples mistakes". That was the reason that Divine Metamagic was braught in, because typically Metamagic for Clerics was a pointless feat. Unlike a Wizard who could prepair one or more spells per level with metamagic feats, Cleric spells scale differently, and the cost is just too high for the benefit (generally). It would have been better to base the spell level increase on the individual spells rather than a set amount.
The other point of Divine Metamagic was to allow the Cleric to use Turning Attempts, which can be an extremely weak class ability, depending on GM style and game type. It is also easy to say that the Cleric had so much going for them, but they also have a lot going against them that a lot of people do not concider, in my opinion. A completely arbitrairy alignment rule that is all in the DM's hand. They had the largest deficiency in good prestige Classes and Feats of any core class, even less than some of the non-core classes such as Warlock. It was the hardest class to benefit much from multiclassing as other class abilities either had little to no synergy or outright forbid Cleric abilities from working, (such as Rage). The Cleric got nothing after 1st level. The Cleric might also have to spend a lot of money out of their own pocket to fix other players mistakes, but worse than that, might have to give up their own XP. Things like Greater Restoration, Raise Dead, True Res., the staple Cleric Spells. They (players and character) tended to get little respect from other players, as they where taken for granted and expected to heal, by wands for the...
Let's be honest here. Clerics get the same access to "good feats" as anyone else with the exception of Arcane strike and the fighter only feats. They also get access to channeling feats which most classes do not. Cleric's are a good solid class. They may be the best class for spell focus:evocation due to the secondary effects(blind, stun, die, etc.) on some of their evocation spells. They have a limited spell list compared to whom? If your answer is wizard then yes, that is correct. Other than that they have a top notch spell list and they get every spell on their list by leveling up, something they were going to do anyways. At level 17 they get miracle and now have access to almost every spell. I would say the cleric is just fine to specialize spellcasting, melee, or archery, and can pick their "good feats" in accordance with what the player wants them to do.
So I am confused, are people still suggesting that the vanilla PF Cleric, drawing on the PF rules (core rulebook) is an overpowered class?
I just don't see it, and would like some info pointing to them being 'broken'.
So I am confused, are people still suggesting that the vanilla PF Cleric, drawing on the PF rules (core rulebook) is an overpowered class?
I just don't see it, and would like some info pointing to them being 'broken'.
Ok let me spell it out again:
Arcane casters get 9th level spells, and that's it.
Druids get 9th level spells, wild shape, other perks, two good saves and medium BAB/HD, and a companion... but they have metal restrictions and a fairly (not completely by any means) weak spell list.
Clerics get the full 9th level spells, full armor (if they want it... only a single feat) without any restrictions on armor or weapons, channel energy (so they can save their slots for "fun things" which they have plenty of) medium BAB/HD two good saves, and two domains (with no sacrifices like the wizard has to make, or restricted spell list like the sorcerer) and can add on spells to their spell list with the domain, and get their entire spell list to choose from without needing a book or to spend gold on it.
Clerics can blast as well as the wizard, fight better than most (even other medium BAB classes) buff, heal, dispel, do the utility thing, in armor with decent weapons, with other class abilities, with channel energy, and extra spell slots (without giving anything up again unlike the wizard or druid)... and one of the best spell lists around.
The cleric gives up nothing and gets the best of everything. Still. Not as bad as in 3.5 but it's still there. When it comes down to it they get the most for the least.
where can i find the feat divine metamagic?
Clerics do appear to have the capacity to be good all-rounders, but they don't seem to be the 'best' when the rubber hits the road.
Whilst all that stuff sounds good on paper, Clerics aren't winning the DPS shoot-out on Melee'ing, and for sheer Magic carnage they aren't topping the board either.
I'd be keen to see a stat-block of a level 1/5/10/15 (or similar pattern) cleric showing its advancement and an overview of the perceived capabilities and where it gets good on the curve.
Edit - Limitation - PF Core book only.
Clerics have very few good spells over 6th level. Sure, there's a couple of gems in there but most of it is alignment based crap that screws your party at least marginally. These extras are needed to help balance them out. Even with a medium BAB, they still suck at melee without spending time buffing and still not all that great when they do. I think they are balanced well in PF.
Clerics have very few good spells over 6th level. Sure, there's a couple of gems in there but most of it is alignment based crap that screws your party at least marginally. These extras are needed to help balance them out. Even with a medium BAB, they still suck at melee without spending time buffing and still not all that great when they do. I think they are balanced well in PF.
If you don't like clerics you can just not play them. Let's list a few nice cleric spells over 6th level just for argument's sake.
Weather domain cleric - Control weather + control winds
Animal domain cleric - share spells, anti-magic field, have your anaconda wrap up the enemy wizard in an amf or share righteous might/divine power with your friendly neighborhood dire lion
good groups - Holy word +bead of karma
anyone you don't want to touch you - repulsion
Spellcasting focus cleric - heightened sanctuary
resurrection/true resurrection - no explanation necessary I hope
summon monster 7-9
dimension lock
firestorm
greater planar ally
greater spell immunity
astral projection
energy drain
etherealness
gate
implosion
miracle - congratulations you're now a level 15 wizard too
other spells in this range can be very useful situationally not to mention your domain spells-powers
Are clerics broken? are they OP? well they can be if built right i think big deal here is people are looking at them in a 1 vs 1 situation vs other classes. Here is real picture as to WHY they have all crap they have. In a real combat situation isn't WoW cant taunt the enemy off of the cleric so its widely thought by developers that, could just focus fire the cleric if really wanted to and its suppose to be a common tactic. I am not so sure that actually works in reality... personally i think problem with cleric is that can use all magic in full plate armor while wielding a great sword of destruction and buff themselves up so much there an unstoppable killing machine.
So if REALLY want to weaken or beat the class solution is to simply tone them down for your games if thats your issue.
Step 1: give them spell failure in armor
Step 2: give them D6 hit dice
Step 3: remove there armor proficiency.
now they are basically wizards with divine magic, and is probably way should be in first place. People can disagree all want BUT here is my own perception to the class. Clerics are suppose to be divine healers or casters, having them be a walking tank is probably a bit dated now. If want to be a holy warrior then maybe roll a paladin, anyway not decided if i'd use this sort of rule for my own games but defiantly a way to go.
Side Note: a side note,spells like wish, limited wish, miracle i strictly control as a DM i WOULD never allow a cleric to use a spell like that to simulate an arcane spell. Just like i'd ever allow an arcane caster to use a similar spell to simulate a divine spell. Why? because thats not your spell type no reason to allow you to use spell to throw a fireball or heal(as a wizard). If its something specific like need that spell to kill the uber bad guy maybe then... but yea as a DM do need to control uber spells like wish and miracle.
just my 2 cents.
while wielding a great sword of destruction
I'm a fossil and have a hard time with the above :p I think I am stuck in the age of Blunt only weapons - Clerics with swords is just all wrong.