|
Okay this is a nice revelation, but it is a poor revelation before 6th level. Even at 6th level you have a whoping two spells it applies to, glyph of warding, and that spell has a 10 minute casting time, so no combat application and fireball, which has combat applications so that's when it's useful, but only one spell?
At 7th level you get wall of fire but come on two spells before level ten that work with a revelation that can be taken at level one?
Oh at 10th level you get one more spell that an oracle can cast, flame strike.
The problem is that produce flame, as written doesn't work with this spell, making it useless for low level players, and low utility at hire levels. You have to multi-class to make this revelation have real utility, but for an oracle only 2 spells by 10th level can even use this revelation and I don't think this revelation is meant to only be useful for high level oracles.
Just re-write it so that it works with produce flame then it isn't a trap revelation for low level oracles (like my player who only got use out of it because he has sorcerer levels) When we did a 5th level playtest for the oracle we had to stop the game in the middle of playing so that the oracle could choose another revelation when he learned that burning magic didn't work with the only flame spell he had THE SPELL GRANTED BY THE FLAME FOCUS. Either that or make the revelation not choosable before 7th level so no one accidentally takes it.
|
Okay this is a nice revelation, but it is a poor revelation before 6th level. Even at 6th level you have a whoping two spells it applies to, glyph of warding, and that spell has a 10 minute casting time, so no combat application and fireball, which has combat applications so that's when it's useful, but only one spell?
At 7th level you get wall of fire but come on two spells before level ten that work with a revelation that can be taken at level one?
Oh at 10th level you get one more spell that an oracle can cast, flame strike.
I seem to recall it being said that there will be new spells in the APG, and specifically ones for the Oracle that apply to the different elemental revelations.
Still seems wierd for the Bonus Spell granted by the Foci to not work with the Class Ability.
But if the spell itself is just a place-holder for new APG spells....
|
|
Still seems wierd for the Bonus Spell granted by the Foci to not work with the Class Ability.
But if the spell itself is just a place-holder for new APG spells....
that was the big one for me, Produce flame, with burning magic to extend the damage seems like a no brainer pick for low leves. Then it turns out that burning magic doesn't work with that spell, okay so I'll just get another flame spell when I hit next level, whats that? oh I have to wait till 5th level and get fireball, so at 10th level I'll have 3 spells that benefit from this ability(fireball, wall of flame, flame strike), well isn't that dandy.
I don't see the problem here. So it doesn't apply to a lot of spells. You can cast the few it does apply to until you run out of slots.
|
|
I don't see the problem here. So it doesn't apply to a lot of spells. You can cast the few it does apply to until you run out of slots.
not if you take it before 6th level (which I've seen) and a revelation should apply to more than one spell on your list. It really should apply to any spell that deals fire damage, why it doesn't I don't know. hell even if you wait to get it till you have spells you can apply it to two of you're spells which are your highest level slots one of which is a non-combat spell. You're saying there's no problem if an oracle takes this as their first revelation and then can't use it till they hit sixth level? Unless of course they multiclass wizard/sorcerer.
Once again there are 3 solutions
1)just make it something you can't take until 7th level (when you actually can cast spells it applies to)
2)re-write it so it applies to produce flame
3)add low level spells to the cleric spell list that deal fire damage
but it is a problem.
Okay this is a nice revelation, but it is a poor revelation before 6th level. Even at 6th level you have a whoping two spells it applies to, glyph of warding, and that spell has a 10 minute casting time, so no combat application and fireball, which has combat applications so that's when it's useful, but only one spell?
At 7th level you get wall of fire but come on two spells before level ten that work with a revelation that can be taken at level one?
Oh at 10th level you get one more spell that an oracle can cast, flame strike. [...]
I agree with KaeYoss, I don't see the problem here. You can take the revelation later.
Also, the get fireball at level 7 and you get wall of fire at level 9 and then flamstrike at level 10 and evetually you get fire seeds and fire storm.Whats the probelm? Flame is one of the more powerful mysteries.
Not like the problematic Wind Mystery. Link How many electricity spells do the master of air and electricity get? Zero!
I think it should work with the oracle's spell-like abilities, as well.
Hrmm, these Mysteries look like they need the help of a little metamagic feat called Energy Substitution.
I think it should work with the oracle's spell-like abilities, as well.
Most of the Mysteries don't have SPA (spell-like abilities), they have Su or ex.
None of the elemental mysteries have any SPA, they only have SU or Ex.
Well then I'd like to see them work with her Su abilities.
|
|
Okay this is a nice revelation, but it is a poor revelation before 6th level. Even at 6th level you have a whoping two spells it applies to, glyph of warding, and that spell has a 10 minute casting time, so no combat application and fireball, which has combat applications so that's when it's useful, but only one spell?
At 7th level you get wall of fire but come on two spells before level ten that work with a revelation that can be taken at level one?
Oh at 10th level you get one more spell that an oracle can cast, flame strike. [...]
I agree with KaeYoss, I don't see the problem here. You can take the revelation later.
Also, the get fireball at level 7 and you get wall of fire at level 9 and then flamstrike at level 10 and evetually you get fire seeds and fire storm.
Whats the probelm? Flame is one of the more powerful mysteries.
Not like the problematic Wind Mystery. Link How many electricity spells do the master of air and electricity get? Zero!
The problem is the levels before you get there were you don't have those spells are you paying attention
I've said that every dang time, it's possible to take this ability at first level, and then not be able to use it until 6th level basically making it a trap. That is the problem. At higher levels its not a problem I'm not claiming its a problem You'll note the title even says not really good before 10th which is admitting it gets better at higher levels. but to give an ability at level one that you can't use until level 6 is an issue, especially when you'd have to be familiar with every spell in the clerics list before hand to know that, and even if this is a class where you assume the player and DM have some familiarity with the game. It's still something that can be missed, as I said I had a fifth level playtest of these classes where neither I, the DM with lots of gaming experience, nor the player, who was already playing an oracle of flame in our real game, caught the problem and then the player either a) had to play through the entire level (god forbid we started at level 1 ) with an ability that doesn't do jack s++@, or b) pause the game while the player picks a new flame revelation so that he doesn't have a useless ability.
And it's easy to fix, either don't let you take the ability before 6th level where you have spells you can cast that work with it, or make lower level fire spells on the clerics list that require a save, or just make the ability apply to fire spells that don't require a save.
But to say that an ability that you can get at level one that will have litterally no use until level 6 isn't a problem I don't get that. Why don't we give the fighter an ability at level one that says at 10th level you'll get to critical on a 15 instead of a bonus feat, eventually he'll be able to use it, so what's the problem? I have no problem with the ability as is as long as it doesn't let you take it before you can actually use it.
As to the other elemental classes, just because there are bigger problems doesn't mean you ignore minor problems. "Gee my brakes aren't working, guess that means I don't have to get that broken tail light fixed." Not when you can fix both.
stuff
Please don't shout. It's enough your avatar is.
I get it, but I don't think it's a problem.You can pick this revelation later.
They might just add:
You must be at least 11th level before selecting this revelation.
|
|
stuffPlease don't shout. It's enough your avatar is.
I get it, but I don't think it's a problem.
You can pick this revelation later.
They might just add:
You must be at least 11th level before selecting this revelation.
Like I said, that would be fine. I don't even mind them saying must be 6th level before selecting this revelation, sorry for shouting (I forget that instead of just emphasis it's supposed to be shouting, I shoulda just used bold) I've edited the post.
Anywho that's a fine solution I just don't want it to be possible for someone to come to a table with an ability and then realize it can't be used for 3-4 levels. saying it can't be taken before x is a perfect solution. I was just getting bothered that it was being said that it isn't a problem at all.
stuffPlease don't shout. It's enough your avatar is.
I get it, but I don't think it's a problem.
You can pick this revelation later.
They might just add:
You must be at least 11th level before selecting this revelation.
Like I said, that would be fine. I don't even mind them saying must be 6th level before selecting this revelation, sorry for shouting (I forget that instead of just emphasis it's supposed to be shouting, I shoulda just used bold) I've edited the post.
Anywho that's a fine solution I just don't want it to be possible for someone to come to a table with an ability and then realize it can't be used for 3-4 levels. saying it can't be taken before x is a perfect solution. I was just getting bothered that it was being said that it isn't a problem at all.
I agree with you. There are some odd stuff going on with the elemental mysteries. Flame included.
For example “Form of Flame” and “Water Form”. They last for one hour per level but you what are you suppose to do with these forms? Turn into Codzilla? And can you cast spells in these forms? I had hoped the Oracle would be a bit like a cleric focused on spells with some aces up his sleeve. But these forms seam to indicate something else.I'm not sure what Jason has in mind.