Director of Games
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Not much noticed so far, I'm loving the new uses for the Discoveries! One thing I saw was that the first Mutagen grants an 'alchemical' bonus to one of the physical scores, but the other enhanced Mutagens from Discoveries grant 'enhancement' bonuses instead.
Ah... good catch. That should be alchemical.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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On page 7 under "Sticky Bomb" when it says "Bombs that have effects that happen 1 round later instead have those effects 2 rounds later."
Does that mean:
a. They happen once, 2 rounds after the bomb hits (meaning NO effect on the round in between); or,
b. They happen twice, once per round for 2 rounds after the bomb hits.
lvl 10 human alchemist lvl 1 and 3 feats are point blank shot and weapon focus(bomb) leaving you with a few undetermined feats.
18 dex (start at 16 +2 from lvls 4 and 8) 18 int 10 every other stat. drink a dex mutagen taking my dex to 22 so i have a +15/+10 to attack with a bomb. Dex with a penalty to wisdom? seriously who needs it when you stand in the back throwing bombs.
All discoveries are 3 potent bombs + fast bombs + sticky bombs.
14 times / day you can throw 2 bombs / round if you just stand still with a +15/+10 attack bonus that deals 16d6 dmg each, each lasts an extra round. so if you get to throw again round 2, thats possibly 16d6 damage continuing from last round and a new 16d6 damage this round. making it 32d6 damage on round 2 with another 16d6 set up for round 3. So IF you hit, that means 4 bombs have done 64d6 damage, which leaves you with another 10 bombs for the day.
My dm has already stated he will never allow this class as is in our sessions anymore. The rest of the group agreed.
The only hope i see here is the one line that reads, "Unless otherwise noted, discoveries that modify bombs do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an indvidual bomb."
sticky bomb reads, "Creatures that take a direct hit from a sticky bomb take the damage again 1 round later. Bombs that have effects that occur 1 round later instead have those effects occur 2 rounds later." suggesting its effects stack with other discoveries.
If you can do this, you have finally made a class that is better than a wizard and the barbarian. considering this doesn't look at anything it can craft, brew, or its elixirs.
sorry forgot to add the int modifier to damage. which adds 4 damage to each attack.
I'm only posting this as what i believe caused this to be possible is a combination of posts saying they want greater specialization capabilities, and more damage potential so that you can rival fighters or wizards depending on what role you choose through specialization.
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lvl 10 human alchemist lvl 1 and 3 feats are point blank shot and weapon focus(bomb) leaving you with a few undetermined feats.
18 dex (start at 16 +2 from lvls 4 and 8) 18 int 10 every other stat. drink a dex mutagen taking my dex to 22 so i have a +15/+10 to attack with a bomb. Dex with a penalty to wisdom? seriously who needs it when you stand in the back throwing bombs.
All discoveries are 3 potent bombs + fast bombs + sticky bombs.
14 times / day you can throw 2 bombs / round if you just stand still with a +15/+10 attack bonus that deals 16d6 dmg each, each lasts an extra round.
So what you are saying is the first round is 8d6/8d6 total is 16d6. Round 2 is 16d6/16d6 total 32d6. Thats beyond ridiculous. This needs addressed immediately.
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lvl 10 human alchemist lvl 1 and 3 feats are point blank shot and weapon focus(bomb) leaving you with a few undetermined feats.
18 dex (start at 16 +2 from lvls 4 and 8) 18 int 10 every other stat. drink a dex mutagen taking my dex to 22 so i have a +15/+10 to attack with a bomb. Dex with a penalty to wisdom? seriously who needs it when you stand in the back throwing bombs.
All discoveries are 3 potent bombs + fast bombs + sticky bombs.
14 times / day you can throw 2 bombs / round if you just stand still with a +15/+10 attack bonus that deals 16d6 dmg each, each lasts an extra round. so if you get to throw again round 2, thats possibly 16d6 damage continuing from last round and a new 16d6 damage this round. making it 32d6 damage on round 2 with another 16d6 set up for round 3.
My dm has already stated he will never allow this class as is in our sessions anymore. The rest of the group agreed.
The only hope i see here is the one line that reads, "Unless otherwise noted, discoveries that modify bombs do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an indvidual bomb."
sticky bomb reads, "Creatures that take a direct hit from a sticky bomb take the damage again 1 round later. Bombs that have effects that occur 1 round later instead have those effects occur 2 rounds later." suggesting its effects stack with other discoveries.
If you can do this, you have finally made a class that is better than a wizard and the barbarian. considering this doesn't look at anything it can craft, brew, or its elixirs.
You should ask if he'll allow it in your next play session to be tested. It sounds a lot like you'll be NOVAing your Alchemist doing that, considering he's only likely to have what 14 bombs? Two attacks a round = 7 rounds worth of bombs a day. That = around two fights of awesome damage domination, and about 5 fights of plinking with the crossbow, while everyone else shines.
lvl 10 human alchemist lvl 1 and 3 feats are point blank shot and weapon focus(bomb) leaving you with a few undetermined feats.
18 dex (start at 16 +2 from lvls 4 and 8) 18 int 10 every other stat. drink a dex mutagen taking my dex to 22 so i have a +15/+10 to attack with a bomb. Dex with a penalty to wisdom? seriously who needs it when you stand in the back throwing bombs.
All discoveries are 3 potent bombs + fast bombs + sticky bombs.
14 times / day you can throw 2 bombs / round if you just stand still with a +15/+10 attack bonus that deals 16d6 dmg each, each lasts an extra round. so if you get to throw again round 2, thats possibly 16d6 damage continuing from last round and a new 16d6 damage this round. making it 32d6 damage on round 2 with another 16d6 set up for round 3. So IF you hit, that means 4 bombs have done 64d6 damage, which leaves you with another 10 bombs for the day.
My dm has already stated he will never allow this class as is in our sessions anymore. The rest of the group agreed.
The only hope i see here is the one line that reads, "Unless otherwise noted, discoveries that modify bombs do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an indvidual bomb."
sticky bomb reads, "Creatures that take a direct hit from a sticky bomb take the damage again 1 round later. Bombs that have effects that occur 1 round later instead have those effects occur 2 rounds later." suggesting its effects stack with other discoveries.
If you can do this, you have finally made a class that is better than a wizard and the barbarian. considering this doesn't look at anything it can craft, brew, or its elixirs.
sorry forgot to add the int modifier to damage. which adds 4 damage to each attack.
I'm only posting this as what i believe caused this to be possible is a combination of posts saying they want greater specialization capabilities, and more damage potential so that you can rival fighters or wizards depending on what role you choose through specialization.
Some things.
First, you're essentially complaining that an alchemist that pours everything into doing damage can do a lot of damage. Oh the horror! Literally, you cannot do anything but throw bombs.
Secondly, alchemists have low will save. Dropping wisdom in a class that will most likely already have low wisdom? That's not a no brainer. Congrats, all it takes is one -wisdom attack and you die. Way to go, there. Or one will-save spell that you can't make.
Thirdly, you claim he's better then a wizard. What?
First off, wizards are best off not blasting. They're better off doing battle field control. Speaking of which, a level 7 wizard can defeat your level 10 alchemist no problem. He casts Fear. The end! or maybe a level 3 wizard comes along and throws a Fog Cloud out. The end! hell, the wizard doesn't even need to do anything to you. Fire Shield. Done.
Which reminds me. Fourthly, the monster is immune or resistant to fire damage. Woops! There goes your entire character!
All you've shown is that, if you heavily, heavily, heavily specialize, you're good at the thing you specialize in. Well...ok? You're a one trick pony to the extreme, and all it takes is one quick protection from fire spell, and you're now utterly useless. Or an enemy with good reflex saves - useless again. What about an enemy who runs or flies away? You get the idea.
the target of a direct hit gets no reflex save, yes a wizard could easily beat you but with improved initiative as the other level 1 feat you now go on +8, +10 if you drink your mutagen before combat.
Yes, my argument to the group was well its all fire damage it could be resisted or something could be immune to it.
So your telling me, you need a wizard or a monster specifically set to handle him (by this i mean finding monsters with a damage reduction to fire, in all the adventure paths I've played there has only been one where there was more than 1 creature with a resistance to fire). While everyone else is screwed.
But hey, at least its still a magical effect :)
oh and fear doesn't effect creatures higher that 5hd
Isn't the alchemist effectively neutered without his gear though?
the target of a direct hit gets no reflex save, yes a wizard could easily beat you but with improved initiative as the other level 1 feat you now go on +8, +10 if you drink your mutagen before combat.
Yes, my argument to the group was well its all fire damage it could be resisted or something could be immune to it.
So your telling me, you need a wizard or a monster specifically set to handle him (by this i mean finding monsters with a damage reduction to fire, in all the adventure paths I've played there has only been one where there was more than 1 creature with a resistance to fire). While everyone else is screwed.
But hey, at least its still a magical effect :)
oh and fear doesn't effect creatures higher that 5hd
No, CAUSE Fear only effects enemies 5HD and lower. Fear doesn't have that limitation.
Your build is still intensely specific and build around doing only one thing, and it takes far more then just fire resistance to shut you down. You said it yourself - you have to stand still and do nothing but throw very elemental specific bombs.
As for fire resistance, Protection from Energy is both common and level 3. That means at level 10, almost any level 5 spellcaster can completely shut you down. That's hardly a "monster specifically set to handle him." Not that he needs to use that, since your SO specialized, that a simple fog spell or, hell, fighting in the dark, equally shuts you down.
64d6+32? At level 10?
256 damage to one target. About 85 DPR assuming everything hits.
A wizard 10 can do 180 in 3 rounds with 3 maximized fireballs to everything within 20ft. Easily achieved with a rod of lesser maximize. Using up just three 3rd level slots. Your alchemist is using up 1/3 of his offensive capabilities for that. The wizard is still packing all his 4th and 5th level spell slots. Which could include up to 3 maximized scorching rays.
Does your DM not allow evokers in his sessions either? or double bladed sword wielding barbarians
You've made a glass cannon that'll die in 2 hits from a fire giant.
There will always be some combination with some classes that would make it rather unpleasant for the representative adversaries. It's almost impossible to avoid. Some things are up to the GM as well. Give the player the no finger if you think it's overpowered. Really can't see the problem. It seems like the GM only works as a host and have nothing to say if it's in the books. Usually in our games the GM has the final word, and if a player discovers something overpowered either by random luck or "sinister" tinkering he usually takes it up with the player in a friendly tone. No point of making so much fuzz out of nothing. Some like it flashy, others like it toned down.
If this doesn't make much sense I will excuse myself by saying that I haven't slept much the last few days. Right now I look like my monkey.
I've always hated when classes had seemingly overpowered effects like this. It reminds me of some of the crazy prestige classes from 3.5 that I always thought were just unnecessary to the system and had a tendency to steep the playing field for certain players and make the game less fun for others.
So far I've been pretty happy with the classes in Pathfinder (minus the already fixed issues within the Summoner) but I'd hate for something like this to be possible in the final edition. So far I've been playing pathfinder predominantly with only pathfinder material, no house rules besides game supplements like the crit hit/miss decks, but things like this were one of the big reasons I switched from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
I haven't seen this actually play out yet and I hope it's not as completely crazy as it seems here, but if it is I really hope it's addressed before the final version.
To me it sounds like the problem isn't with any other feature than sticky bombs, really. Without it, that 64d6 damage drops down to 32d6 damage or an average of 112, which sounds okay to me. Sticky Bombs does seem to increase the alchemist's damage output too greatly, but I think an easier solution would be to ban the discovery and not the class. Have you ever banned a wizard because of a single spell?
Or change Sticky Bombs to only allow ONE bomb's damage to persist at a time, so a Full Attack with multiple Sticky Bombs would not stack atop each other. It would still be a viable Discovery, especially when you can't Full Attack (and when you choose to split your bombs amongst multiple targets).
64d6 over 3 rounds is a lot of damage, but not a game breaking amount considering it's going to be used to kill a single target.
Imagine if you took this guy into a fight with with a 10th level party against 4 stone giants. He could kill one of them in 2 rounds. Then again so can the fighter or barbarian or ranger with favored enemy giants.
Except the alchemist just threw 4 bombs to kill one guy. He can only do that two maybe three more times.
It's not even a hard optimization to smack on the wrist. A single casting of Confusion is going to result in hilarity against his +2 Will save.
64d6 over 3 rounds is a lot of damage, but not a game breaking amount considering it's going to be used to kill a single target.
It is, though :/ Not every encounter has a lot of opponents.
I'm not sure you've really looked through how many CR ~10 creatures have fire resit/immunity or some other way to deal with this. Most of the time if you encounter a single monster that will be a challenge for a party of that level it's going to be a CR 11-13 anyways.
Say you fight a storm giant. It only has about 200 HP. First round, beatsticks move in defensively. Alch throws his two bombs for 16d6+8 damage and the storm giant is now exploded and covered in napalm. You know what it's going to do on it's turn? Move up to the Alch and Improved Vital Strike him into bloody smetherines. Cause it just hit you for 12d6+21 damage and can't miss except for a 1. It's average damage will flat out kill you.
The alchemist suck if he use no buffs and meet creatures with fire resit/immunity?
Well not all creatures will have fire resit/immunity and the Alchemist can use stuff like Blur or Greater Invisibility or Displacement or/and stoneskin.
He can also fly or Levitate. Or he could use mirror Image.
Ac for AC:
dex 18, +4 to AC
+2 Chain shirt +6 to AC
Shield spell +4 to ac
Barkskin +2 or +3 to AC
Ring of deflection +2 to AC
Dodge (the feat) +1 to AC
Ioun Stones Dusty rose Prism +1 AC
Haste (or boots of haste) +1 AC
This leave him with AC 32. There are ways to boost it even more.
Not all creatures he meet will have an attack bonus of +27. And if they do the alchemist can always buff himself and/or he can choose to attack when the creature is allready hurt by the other members of the party or not use all his power as not to draw attantion.
Then there is the rest of the party. The fire giant will be occupied by the fighter, rogue, cleric or whatever.
My point is: The alchemist is not without tactical options. If his is the player is stupid.
Edit twice: fire resit/immunity? He can use Frost or Acid bombs can he not, or am I wrong?
Or change Sticky Bombs to only allow ONE bomb's damage to persist at a time, so a Full Attack with multiple Sticky Bombs would not stack atop each other. It would still be a viable Discovery, especially when you can't Full Attack (and when you choose to split your bombs amongst multiple targets).
Or using Sticky Bombs is a standard action.
stuff
Agree: things like this were one of the reasons we switched from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
I think a Pathfinder Bestiary II is more important than new classes.
A wizard 10 can do 180 in 3 rounds with 3 maximized fireballs to everything within 20ft. Easily achieved with a rod of lesser maximize. Using up just three 3rd level slots. Your alchemist is using up 1/3 of his offensive capabilities for that. The wizard is still packing all his 4th and 5th level spell slots. Which could include up to 3 maximized scorching rays.
hm, come to think of it, that is a good point. A 10 level wizard have more fire power and a 10 level rogue can sneak attack all day long.
The Alchemist has his Bombs. When he run out of Bombs he won't be able to much damage at all. But if he want to burn all his Bombs in one fight that's his problem. The problem is only what will you do if you meet a foe how gladly use all his Bombs in just one fight.
A wizard 10 can do 180 in 3 rounds with 3 maximized fireballs to everything within 20ft. Easily achieved with a rod of lesser maximize. Using up just three 3rd level slots. Your alchemist is using up 1/3 of his offensive capabilities for that. The wizard is still packing all his 4th and 5th level spell slots. Which could include up to 3 maximized scorching rays.hm, come to think of it, that is a good point. A 10 level wizard have more fire power and a 10 level rogue can sneak attack all day long.
The Alchemist has his Bombs. When he run out of Bombs he won't be able to much damage at all. But if he want to burn all his Bombs in one fight that's his problem. The problem is only what will you do if you meet a foe how gladly use all his Bombs in just one fight.
As long as the alchemist is 2nd level or higher, he/she can work a lot of poison attacks into what he/she does in combat and still be very effective, particularly when combined with the mutagen to get an extra to hit bonus.
Don't forget i have listed only 3 feats of his 6 total. He already has point blank shot so why not add deadly aim, arcane strike, vital strike as the other 3 and you now have a heavy crossbow wielding alchemist. you can now do +13 to attack for 2d10 + (3 arcane strike) + (4 deadly aim) + (1 pointblank shot) for 2d10 + 8. Not great but hey, this is a normal heavy crossbow, and once again with no other gear.
As long as the alchemist is 2nd level or higher, he/she can work a lot of poison attacks into what he/she does in combat and still be very effective, particularly when combined with the mutagen to get an extra to hit bonus.
i repeated this statement as it also applies here.
Ah you are right, i was just looking at caster levels which he does have.
I'm just playing devils advocate here as I do believe with a change to sticky bombs and/or fast bombs this class will be more balanced and a great class to play.
and on another side note
A wizard 10 can do 180 in 3 rounds with 3 maximized fireballs to everything within 20ft. Easily achieved with a rod of lesser maximize. Using up just three 3rd level slots.
That would actually be 3 level 6 spell slots and he doesn't even get 1 slot till level 11. And unlike fireball, evasion doesn't work against the bombs.
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64d6+32? At level 10?
256 damage to one target. About 85 DPR assuming everything hits.
A wizard 10 can do 180 in 3 rounds with 3 maximized fireballs to everything within 20ft. Easily achieved with a rod of lesser maximize. Using up just three 3rd level slots. Your alchemist is using up 1/3 of his offensive capabilities for that. The wizard is still packing all his 4th and 5th level spell slots. Which could include up to 3 maximized scorching rays.
Does your DM not allow evokers in his sessions either? or double bladed sword wielding barbarians
You've made a glass cannon that'll die in 2 hits from a fire giant.
So you are comparing a level 10 wizard burning magic item charges over a period of 3 rounds to an alchemist simply attacking over 2 rounds?
Yeah, that is totally apples to apples.
64d6+32? At level 10?
256 damage to one target. About 85 DPR assuming everything hits.
A wizard 10 can do 180 in 3 rounds with 3 maximized fireballs to everything within 20ft. Easily achieved with a rod of lesser maximize. Using up just three 3rd level slots. Your alchemist is using up 1/3 of his offensive capabilities for that. The wizard is still packing all his 4th and 5th level spell slots. Which could include up to 3 maximized scorching rays.
Does your DM not allow evokers in his sessions either? or double bladed sword wielding barbarians
You've made a glass cannon that'll die in 2 hits from a fire giant.
So you are comparing a level 10 wizard burning magic item charges over a period of 3 rounds to an alchemist simply attacking over 2 rounds?
Yeah, that is totally apples to apples.
Actually, it is. Except the alchemist is using up his limited class abilities, while the wizard is simply using a magic item. The alchemist's potential damage is measured over a 3 round period, so it makes sense to measure the wizard's over a 3 round period. And that's likely not the most broken combo you can come up with for a 10th level wizard (especially since it doesn't involve any quickened spells).
Does the extend potion work on extracts? and if so can you extend a combined potion/extract?
Assuming it remains as it did in the initial release for the playtest, no. Anything that says it effects potions specifically only effects actual potions (aka, things made with Brew Potion).
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On a more useful note, I'm a little confused about the alchemist's ability to use Craft (alchemy) to ID potions "as if using detect magic." Does the Craft (alchemy) check replace the usual Spellcraft check?
I took it to mean that so long as the alchemist holds a potion for 1 rd its treated as if he had cast Detect Magic and is able to use the Craft(alchemy) skill in place of Spellcraft to identify it.
Someone explain to me something...
Unless otherwise noted, discoveries that modify bombs do not stack. Only one such discovery can be applied to an indvidual bomb.
Potent bombs: The damage dealt by an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6. An alchemist can select this discovery more than once, its effects stack.
Nothing here about its effects stacking with the other bombs, just itself.
Sticky bomb: The effects of the alchemist’s bombs are persistent and continue to damage creatures for 1 round after the initial damage. Creatures that take a direct hit
from a sticky bomb take the damage again 1 round later. Bombs that have effects that occur 1 round later instead have those effects occur 2 rounds later. An alchemist must be at least 10th level before selecting this discovery.
Nothing here about its effects stacking with other bombs.
Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.
Nothing here about its effects stacking with other bombs; however, it's not made clear whether or not this is an effect that modifies the bomb itself or just the alchemist.
So... you can't have a potent and sticky bomb, and it's up in the air whether or not fast bombs modify bombs.
Another comparison could be the rogue using Major Magic to cast chill touch and two-weapon fighting. Ten touch attacks (plus two normal attacks) over 3 rounds That's 210 just from the chill touches along with Str damage and 2 more normal sneak attacks.
Bombs that have effects that occur 1 round later instead have those effects occur 2 rounds later.
that would actually suggest you can stack it with other discoveries as how else would there be an effect that would occur 1 round later.
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round.
this just states the alchemist can now make bombs faster, not that the bombs are easier to make. so RAW it would appear this all stacks.
...or make there monsters immune/resistant to fire...
Yeah, but if a DM has to go that far the class should have been looked at closer to make it so doing things that require DM intervention are not as possible. If i want to play a mad bomber and the DM is cool with the idea, then why ruin the fun by using monsters specifically to ruin my character.
All I'm trying to say is this needs to be looked at as someone playing a pathfinder scenario could do this.
On another side note, why not use an elixir of cat's grace instead of the mutagen. With the elixir you don't have the wis penalty and still have the same attack bonus, leaving you to make a str mutagen for when you run out of bombs and want to use a mighty composite longbow.
I do believe i'll stop being this bush as I'm sure other people have things they want to post about the class as well good or bad.
As a DM you should always take your players into account for every encounter. That's something that is applicable for every class. You should know ahead of time that someone who has tweaked there alchemist into a glass cannon bomber is going to be nuking creatures. That they are going to be able to kill 3 things really really good or spread it out and kill things fairly well.
To go back to the wizard example consider Disintegrate at level 10 it can one shot almost any CR appropriate undead creature or caster.
If your party has a wizard you're certainly going to take that into account. They don't even have to specialize to be effective at blasting.
You shouldn't just blindly follow an AP or PS and throw your hands up in frustration when encounters get taken apart by the party. Because any member of the party can do that if you let them.
My dm has already stated he will never allow this class as is in our sessions anymore. The rest of the group agreed.
then he should not include any class that allows the players to min max, and should switch to 4th where everything is nice a predictable.
Don't forget i have listed only 3 feats of his 6 total. He already has point blank shot so why not add deadly aim, arcane strike, vital strike as the other 3 and you now have a heavy crossbow wielding alchemist. you can now do +13 to attack for 2d10 + (3 arcane strike) + (4 deadly aim) + (1 pointblank shot) for 2d10 + 8. Not great but hey, this is a normal heavy crossbow, and once again with no other gear.
As long as the alchemist is 2nd level or higher, he/she can work a lot of poison attacks into what he/she does in combat and still be very effective, particularly when combined with the mutagen to get an extra to hit bonus.i repeated this statement as it also applies here.
And let's not forget RAPID SHOT! I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, which is weird...
You keep saying a DM has to specifically choose an enemy to counter the alchemist.
He doesn't.
We've already shown how multiple other classes can meet that damage output - the only difference is, a barbarian isn't limited at all in how he does the damage. Neither is the fighter. The rogue just has to be able to sneak attack the enemy. So you've essentially burned ALL your discoveries to make a character with the damage output of other classes, only vastly more limited.
Again, protection from fire isn't a horrible rare thing. At the very least, it's a level 3 spell that almost every caster can and would learn.
Hrmm,
Bomb
"Bombs are considered a weapon and can be selected using feats such as Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus."
Fast Bomb
"This functions just like a full-attack with ranged weapon."
Rapid Shot
"When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round."
Uh oh... I think it adds an extra bomb. This should be changed.
[..]
Again, protection from fire isn't a horrible rare thing. At the very least, it's a level 3 spell that almost every caster can and would learn.
Again: He can use Frost or Acid bombs can he not, or am I wrong?
Again: He can use Frost or Acid bombs can he not, or am I wrong?[..]
Again, protection from fire isn't a horrible rare thing. At the very least, it's a level 3 spell that almost every caster can and would learn.
He can only do that if he get's the discoveries to do this. So you're trading raw damage for versatility. A good trade imo, but it would reduce the "epic bombing."
He can only do that if he get's the discoveries to do this. So you're trading raw damage for versatility. A good trade imo, but it would reduce the "epic bombing."Again: He can use Frost or Acid bombs can he not, or am I wrong?[..]
Again, protection from fire isn't a horrible rare thing. At the very least, it's a level 3 spell that almost every caster can and would learn.
The question I'd like answered is which bomb discoveries he can use simultaneously. Will he be able to use fast/frost/explosive bombs at the same time, for instance?
I love what the update did to the class, but I am left a little confused...
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He can only do that if he get's the discoveries to do this. So you're trading raw damage for versatility. A good trade imo, but it would reduce the "epic bombing."Again: He can use Frost or Acid bombs can he not, or am I wrong?[..]
Again, protection from fire isn't a horrible rare thing. At the very least, it's a level 3 spell that almost every caster can and would learn.
The question I'd like answered is which bomb discoveries he can use simultaneously. Will he be able to use fast/frost/explosive bombs at the same time, for instance?
I love what the update did to the class, but I am left a little confused...
The way it comes across to me is that the catalyst is mixed and prepared in X number of vials (the catalyst being inert until activated). When the alchy activates it, he either activates it as a normal bomb or, depending on what discoveries he has, activates it as an alternate type of bomb. If the way i interpret it is correct, an alchy could, using fast bombs and various other discoveries, throw two (or three depending on the level) different types of bombs in one round.
Again: He can use Frost or Acid bombs can he not, or am I wrong?[..]
Again, protection from fire isn't a horrible rare thing. At the very least, it's a level 3 spell that almost every caster can and would learn.
Read through his build again. He explicitly uses all of his discoveries for damage in order to achieve this.
That's why I'm saying he's so obscenely specialized. If he changes any of those discoveries, his damage drops. He's stuck standing there, throwing fire bombs, and doing nothing else. Meanwhile the rogue is doing the same amount of damage, but has a plethora of other things he can do.
This isn't a big shocker. If you specialize to the extreme, you're good at the thing you specialize in. Consequently, when you specialize that much, it's much easier to shut you down.
There's a difference between being good at something you specialize in and being ridiculous at it.
224 damage (on average) isn't good, it's ridiculous. CR 13 monsters are around 200 hp at best, and those are supposed to be very hard challenges for the average level 10 party. Taking them down in two rounds doesn't exactly seem right, does it? Even if he sacrificed one discovery of potent bombs to get frost bombs or whatever to deal with the fire resistant stuff he'd still be around 200 damage.
Like I said earlier, the problem lies in sticky bombs. Without them, the very specialized alchemist would still be doing around 115 damage which is very good for that level, and an appropriate damage output for someone who goes all out.
Sticky Bombs should in my opinion be turned into a standard action or simply removed. A discovery that doubles the damage the bomb does is way too good.
I agree, a standard action for it would be appropriate. That way it's similar to Vital Strike. It's a way to make your bombs more powerful while you are moving around since you can't always get a full round action.
The old Sticky Bomb was needed before hand for bombs to still be good-ish. That's no longer necessary.
Not much noticed so far, I'm loving the new uses for the Discoveries! One thing I saw was that the first Mutagen grants an 'alchemical' bonus to one of the physical scores, but the other enhanced Mutagens from Discoveries grant 'enhancement' bonuses instead.Ah... good catch. That should be alchemical.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Also for True Mutagen it only gives "a +6 enhancement bonus to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution."
In addition to being an alchemical bonus shouldn't it also be +8 to all since Grand Mutagen gives +8 to the 1st, +6 to a 2nd and +4 to the 3rd. It should also clarify if True Mutagen also gives -2 to int, wis, cha.