Eidolon


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


So I've been doing some reading through the message boards and have noticed that, well, (most) everyone seems to be in agreement that the Eidolon is pretty OP.

For example:

My Eidolon at first level (humanoid form):

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11

Evolutions:
Slam (to replace claws) 1D8+3
Bite 1d6+3
Improved Natural Armor

AC: 15
CMB: 5
CMD: 16

Since these are both primary attacks, they are made at the full attack bonus. This gives a companion two attacks at a bonus that would not be attainable except by a character with good attack progression and an 18-19 Str (and they would still only get 1). Add on top of this the fact that you have a "buffer" for the Eidolon, and I can see things getting out of control fast.

What I would like to see is the Eidolon as a player class. You would select a base race, and through progressively frequent contact with other planes, they begin to harness the magical energies and use them to change their form. I don't believe this would be OP if the STR/DEX stat progression were removed. Having this as a class would be pretty damn close to broken...having it as a companion just makes it seem rediculous...

You are now $0.02 richer :D


You can't take Improved Natural Armor at level 1, so your Eidolon has all of 13 AC. Yeah, it's got two attacks, but a player can have that, too, and have a higher AC to boot. Even the hit points won't be that different, since the Eidolon does not get maximized hit points for its first hit die and the player does. A level 1 Fighter is likely to have 12-16 hit points (10 from maximized d10, +2-6 from Con and/or Toughness); a level 1 Summoner's Eidolon will have, on average, 13 hit points (2d10 averages to 11, +2 for a +1 Con bonus and 2 HD). So, the Eidolon has better offense but worse defense. That seems fair to me.


Zurai wrote:
You can't take Improved Natural Armor at level 1, so your Eidolon has all of 13 AC. Yeah, it's got two attacks, but a player can have that, too, and have a higher AC to boot. Even the hit points won't be that different, since the Eidolon does not get maximized hit points for its first hit die and the player does. A level 1 Fighter is likely to have 12-16 hit points (10 from maximized d10, +2-6 from Con and/or Toughness); a level 1 Summoner's Eidolon will have, on average, 13 hit points (2d10 averages to 11, +2 for a +1 Con bonus and 2 HD). So, the Eidolon has better offense but worse defense. That seems fair to me.

touche on the INA (just re-read description)...but as for a player having 2 attacks at a +5 bonus?? The only base class i can think of having 2 attacks open at first level (not using TWF) is the monk, and those are going to be at max of +3/+3 (if they have a 20 str). As for the armor, if you can't take that, then share spell + mage armor...puts AC at 17 when it's up...and in all reality...what use does the summoner have for any spells that don't enhance their Eidolon? The Summoner comes across as a cohort or companion to the Eidolon, not the other way around.

I think doing away with the summoner and adding the Eidolon as the class would add a nice, original class option with a different mechanic than any other class...again just my $0.02.


Ryan White 148 wrote:
but as for a player having 2 attacks at a +5 bonus??
I made no such claim. I said that PCs could get two attacks at first level. This is a true statement. There are even other ways than TWF; Cleave, for example.
Quote:
monk, and those are going to be at max of +3/+3 (if they have a 20 str).

+4/+4 with a 20 strength or dex, actually. Monks flurry as if they had Fighter BAB.

Quote:
As for the armor, if you can't take that, then share spell + mage armor...puts AC at 17 when it's up...

Which is still less than a fighter is going to have all the time, and it only lasts for 1 hour per cast. BTW, you don't need Share Spells to cast mage armor on your Eidolon. It has a target of "one creature".

Quote:
and in all reality...what use does the summoner have for any spells that don't enhance their Eidolon? The Summoner comes across as a cohort or companion to the Eidolon, not the other way around.

Only if you choose to play it that way. The Summoner has plenty going in his own right. Not as much as a Druid, but he's got a more powerful companion than a Druid.


So the thing it seems you come back to is the def vs. offense of the eidolon. It seems that a barbarian would be a good comparison. A barbarian uses light armor as i recall...relies on dex, gets natural armor. It just seems like your going to have a pocket barbarian following you around taking orders. I just think that summoner w/ SLA = good class by itself (albeit maybe add better spell progression) and Eidolon = good class by itself with some minor tweaks. Yes they would be a bit squishy at first, but as they progress and get natural armor (and possibly a light armor class proficiency - no weapon proficiencies) this squishyness would be reduced and eventually they would catch up to other classes later on. I like the evolution system as it is, and i think it would just be a nice departure from the standard class progression that would put more control into the hands of the players if it was a stand alone class.


A Summoner without an Eidolon is a very poor class. Medium BAB and Medium Casting already puts it a step behind Druids and Clerics. An almost completely non-offensive spell list puts it even further behind them. No martial weapon proficiencies and no shields puts them behind Clerics, Druids, and Bards. A complete lack of class features aside from summon monster spells as spell-like abilities seals the deal.

The Eidolon is slightly better than a Fighter or Barbarian at offense at levels 1-3, but quickly slides into "much worse" afterwards as long as the excessive build options (20 tentacles and so on) are reigned in. It's much worse than a Fighter or Barbarian (who get medium armor, not just light) at level 1 and gradually rises to better as it levels up (although it cannot wear armor at all, ever).


Zurai wrote:

A Summoner without an Eidolon is a very poor class. Medium BAB and Medium Casting already puts it a step behind Druids and Clerics. An almost completely non-offensive spell list puts it even further behind them. No martial weapon proficiencies and no shields puts them behind Clerics, Druids, and Bards. A complete lack of class features aside from summon monster spells as spell-like abilities seals the deal.

The Eidolon is slightly better than a Fighter or Barbarian at offense at levels 1-3, but quickly slides into "much worse" afterwards as long as the excessive build options (20 tentacles and so on) are reigned in. It's much worse than a Fighter or Barbarian (who get medium armor, not just light) at level 1 and gradually rises to better as it levels up (although it cannot wear armor at all, ever).

However, you can give the Eidolon weapon use and that combined with another primary attack can get a little scary. I built a 10th level fighter, trying to build something that has decent HP, AC and dishes out hurt quickly and an eidolon at 10th level for the summoner.

The fighter is actually still behind the eidolon on base damage, bonus to hit and about even on AC and HP. The only way the fighter can catch up is "getting lucky" on things such as Cleave. However, these differences can be made up with the fact that the eidolon also gets feats. So, if you allow the eidolon to pick up Cleave (for example) means the eidolon goes back ahead. Since the fighter also usually has a lower intelligence, not necessarily 7-10, means that their skill points end up about even too, if not favoring the eidolon if you spend points there. The d10 on the eidolon and built in stat-ups seem to be the biggest unbalancer towards the eidolon from what i've seen.


umbralatro wrote:
However, you can give the Eidolon weapon use and that combined with another primary attack can get a little scary.

Don't forget that, when you use both natural attacks and manufactured weapons in the same attack sequence, the natural attacks are automatically treated as secondary, regardless of whether they're primary attacks normally. That means -5 to hit and only 1/2 Strength bonus to damage. A lot of people forget this when they're talking about Eidolons with weapons.


The Eidolon as it is would probably be underpowered, yes. But more than the power of it, I like the concept of a planetouched type class that evolves over time...maybe with a capstone class ability that would allow a restructure of EVPs after X amt of time spent in heavy meditation contacting the planes or something like that. All i'm saying is the concept for a new character class is there, and with some minor tweaking could definitely be feasible.

Liberty's Edge

Ryan White 148 wrote:
what use does the summoner have for any spells that don't enhance their Eidolon?

This is something I totally would have to disagree with. In fact, last night in running a PFS mod, other than casting Guidance on him every so often, when I did cast, it was on the monsters.

I Dazed a number of lower level creatures, used Daze Monster on a higher level orc, used Guidance on other allies, and, most importantly, Greased the holy symbol right out of the evil cleric's hands, saving our party from probably losing a few of our level 1's if not worse (a level 3 cleric doing 2d6+ neg energy hurts a bit, you know?).

So, I would definitely argue with not needing the casting.

I also will say that after having play a couple levels with the Summoner, the fact that Summon Monster acts like the spell and not how originally written for the class is actually not a hindrance, and really keeps the class from becoming ridiculously overpowered....so kudos on that change after all!


Lets compare this to a human fighter with a greatsword. You initial feats will be Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Cleave. If you are using a points buy system, you should be able to get an 18 strength(16 +2 racial). At level 1, +6(+1 BAB +1 MW +1 Weapon focus +4 strength) to hit with a single attack for 2d6 + 6 damage. If you use cleave, and the first attack hits, you are getting a second attack +6 doing 2d6 + 6 damage. Power attack for -1 to hit, and +3 damage for a total of 2d6 + 9. On top of all this, I can move and still get both of my attacks.

At level 2, the fighter should probably have a MW greatsword, and at least a breastplate for a +8 to hit, and a 16 AC base.


Actually, I think at higher levels the eidolon might be a bit weak for the main feature of a class that specializes in minions, such as what a summoner should be. I have yet to playtest it at those levels, but it only seems marginally better than a druid's companion - and the druid has a lot more tricks in his bag.

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