Making potions and elixirs seems like a very flavourful thing for a wizard.
Unfortunately I don't really see anyone doing it. Are the item creation feats mostly window dressing?
What do people think? Do you use brew potion?
S
The primary problem with potions are that you are paying a big premium for the ability for all classes to use the item.
Potions of Cure Light are a good example. A potion of CLW is 50 GP but it's single use.
A wand of CLW is 750 but you are getting 50 uses out of it. This results in a 15 GP per usage item.
So you are paying an 35 GP per use surtax for making an item usable by every class. It's simply not economical.
Now if potions of CLW were 20 GP a use I could see possible paying a 25% tax to have it so that anyone can use the item but the current taxation rate is simply too high to justify the investment.
You could probably argue that 1st level wands are too cheap (to the point where they are simply healing batteries) but brew potions is a horrible feat selection currently.
I think if Brew Potions offered a bonus to Craft:Alchemy in addition it might be slightly more useful but still...
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I have a cleric with brew potion - I find it very useful because I can hand out status correcting effects to the party for emergencies. A potion of remove paralysis in every party member's hand is very good when the cleric is paralyzed!
I guess scribing scrolls would be more economical - and there is a half level druid and a paladin in the party, but in a party of eight I find that letting the party members spend their own actions on emergency items helps the survivability of the party and gives me more actions in combat.
I'd have a harder time taking that feat as a wizard. There are some thing that are useful, but in general a scroll is as good or better for the spells they usually end up casting. There are few exceptions such as fly and bull's strength, but those are the exception rather than the rule.
I remember playing Baldur's Gate for the PC, where I would stow a good 5-10 healing potions per character plus antidotes, since casting spells took up time and potions were immediate.
If potions don't offer some kind of edge over spellcasting, then nobody will use them. I'm sure a few DM's might homerule down the price of potions, or rule that they give max healing, or some other advantage over having a cleric squat over wounded party members and keeping them aloft.
I'm currently running a Ranger in a solo campaign and he took brew potion - it's been quite handy.
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I always thought the Potion advantage was anyone could use them, regardless of class. Wands have to be wielded by a specific person, and if the one PC who can use that Wand of Cure Light Wounds goes down, best hope you have potions in hand. Can't see it going out of fashion.
For role-playing purposes, I do like the notion of describing a hunt for those rare ingredients, spending hours bubbling stuff up in the lab rather than "ok, you make the potion."
For role-playing purposes, I do like the notion of describing a hunt for those rare ingredients, spending hours bubbling stuff up in the lab rather than "ok, you make the potion."
Which is why, if there's a PC with an item creation feat in the party, I like to allocate some monster treasure as "alchemical reagents" of various kinds, which they can use to make potions. Sometimes they're specialized, like "bloodroot," which counts as X gp toward cure potions, or "essence of lava," which is good for fire-creating potions and pots that protect against cold.
The GM is not a robot. Know what your players' characters can do, and customize the encounters and the treasure rewards to them. If a PC is a numismatist, throw some rare coins in with the horde now and then. If a PC collects old lore, include long-lost scraps of a diary from a famous writer. If a PC makes potions or alchemical items, it's more interesting and flavorful to give them X gp worth of alchemical reagents (which you KNOW they'll use) than just giving them X gp (which they'll spend on reagents to make potions).
It's also a nice way to throw the PC some hints about future encounters. If they find a lot of "essence of lava," they'll probably make a protection from cold potion... which'll be handy the next session when they fight a cold monster.
In my experience, potions & scrolls are great for an effect you might only use once or twice in your entire career. I'm not sure it's worth a feat just to make potions, though.
A couple of spare potions to give to the cleric when he goes down, or when you get separated from the healbot is definitely a good investment. However relying on potions for things that a wand can do more efficiently isn't the best play.
Now if potions were automatically maximized (heal potions) or extended (buff potions) then I think it would be a worthwhile investment but currently it's a suboptimal feat taken for flavor and not utility.
However relying on potions for things that a wand can do more efficiently isn't the best play.
True...but a wand is horribly inefficient for something you might only want to use once or twice, like Hide from Animals or Slow Poison. Two potions would cost 100 gp, and buying a wand, using it twice, and selling it back to the store would cost 360 gp.
Likewise, you don't always have time for the party cleric/wizard to go around casting the same spell four or five times in an emergency.
I agree that Cure X Wounds potions are mostly a waste, though.
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However relying on potions for things that a wand can do more efficiently isn't the best play.True...but a wand is horribly inefficient for something you might only want to use once or twice, like Hide from Animals or Slow Poison. Two potions would cost 100 gp, and buying a wand, using it twice, and selling it back to the store would cost 360 gp.
Likewise, you don't always have time for the party cleric/wizard to go around casting the same spell four or five times in an emergency.
I agree that Cure X Wounds potions are mostly a waste, though.
I don't know. Keeping 1 or two around for when the healer(s) go down can be very nice. As a general healing tool, though, it's a bad idea.
I don't know. Keeping 1 or two around for when the healer(s) go down can be very nice. As a general healing tool, though, it's a bad idea.
I agree that Cure X Wounds potions are mostly a waste, though.
Yes, I would have put that caveat in, but I was too lazy and went with "mostly a waste" instead. :-)
Wands are great for a spell that gets cast repetatively(like cure light wounds). As a bonus, you only need to have the spell on your list to use the wand. A level 1 wizard can use a wand of fireballs.
Scrolls are great for spells that only get used once every blue moon, but you need to have someone who can actually use the spell(or a high enough use magic device).
Potions are for spells that everyone needs often, but they cannot cast themselves. Healing potions for non-clerics are the most obvious example.
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One of my BBEGs always stocked his lackeys with Cure potions. Got to a point my players, hearing that a lackey was quaffing his potion, lamented "he's drinking OUR potion!"
A bit premature, I'm sure, but with no cleric in my players' group (a druid, but not one who wants her spell sheet to be all cure spells), potions come in handy. Plus, we've been on a marathon run adventure where there's no trip back to town to craft a Wand of Cure X Wounds. The one healing wand they salvaged has much more value now, and potions much more importance.
[Note, I houserule now after seeing a forum post that Cure spells and effects out of combat situations have max effect. Again, no druid wants to make her spell sheet look like a 2nd edition healbot list, and this has done wonders without unbalancing our game. My players nearly gave me a pat on the back for applying this concept. Nearly...they still recall some party death's awhile back...]
[Note, I houserule now after seeing a forum post that Cure spells and effects out of combat situations have max effect. Again, no druid wants to make her spell sheet look like a 2nd edition healbot list, and this has done wonders without unbalancing our game. My players nearly gave me a pat on the back for applying this concept. Nearly...they still recall some party death's awhile back...]
Just a bit curious -- did you make this house rule on account of this thread, or another?
I almost never take Brew Potion, nor does anyone in my group. It just isn't worth taking over Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Wand. Most of the healing my party needs is out of combat and there's nothing more efficient for that than a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Sure, we'll usually have a few potions of cure serious on hand in case of emergencies, but that doesn't really justify taking a feat. Compared to the money that craft wondrous, arms/armor, etc save us, brew potion is just not in the same league.
The limit of 3rd level spells is also really annoying. I could think of plenty of higher level spells that I might make potions of to give to the party fighter, like Stoneskin or some of the polymorph spells, but no, that's not allowed for some reason. Bleh, I'll just make scrolls at half the price. And that brings up the other problem with brew potion, the ability for other classes to use it is just not worth doubling the cost. For most items, a class restriction is only worth a 30% difference in price. So why is brew potion 100%?
I found it annoying to spot all the Elixirs of X in the Wondrous Item list... I think Wondrous items is being a jerk and hoarding all the cool items.
Personally, I think nearly all consumable one-shot, anyone use items should fall under brew potion. I think you'd see more people taking it for silversheen and elixirs and such.
You're comparing apples and oranges.
"only people of this one class" may be worth a 30% discount, but that's not anything like "people of any class can use this item" being worth a 100% upgrade.
The fact is that scrolls are cheap and wands are even cheaper, but it's potions that are the baseline for the cost of disposable magic items--because anyone can use them. They're intended to be easy to use and disposable--the sort of thing you can throw into a treasure hoard or "magic shop" and not worry that they're going to be abused somehow. And it's all well and good to say "I'll just make a scroll, it's cheaper," when your cleric goes unconscious, the fighter's not going to be able to use his scrolls of cure wounds to fix him.
Brew Potion may not be the most useful feat for PCs, but it is still a very useful and valuable feat for the game.
Forge Ring, on the other hand.... ;)
{Personally, I think nearly all consumable one-shot, anyone use items should fall under brew potion. I think you'd see more people taking it for silversheen and elixirs and such.}
When you learn how to make a potion (by taking the Brew Potion feat), you're learning how to take a spell you know and turn it into a magic drink that targets the person who drinks it (that's why it doesn't work with area spells or spells that affect objects... neither of them target creatures). So, say you want to make an elixir of tumbling; where's the spell that gives a target +10 to Acrobatics checks for an hour? There isn't one, which is why you can't make a potion out of it. Brew Potion is a non-thinking methodology, like a photocopier--push button, spell becomes potion. Try to make something that doesn't have a source spell, you can't do it.
When you learn how to make a potion (by taking the Brew Potion feat), you're learning how to take a spell you know and turn it into a magic drink that targets the person who drinks it (that's why it doesn't work with area spells or spells that affect objects... neither of them target creatures). So, say you want to make an elixir of tumbling; where's the spell that gives a target +10 to Acrobatics checks for an hour? There isn't one, which is why you can't make a potion out of it. Brew Potion is a non-thinking methodology, like a photocopier--push button, spell becomes potion. Try to make something that doesn't have a source spell, you can't do it.
Couldn't you also say that craft wondrous item is just putting a spell into a worn item and making it continuous? By that logic, it shouldn't be able to do anything not covered by a spell either. But it can. If Craft Wondrous Item can do things radically different than the spells used in its enchantment, I don't see why Brew Potion couldn't do the same. *shrug*
I agree that elixirs and oils should have been part of Brew Potion. Craft Wondrous Item is already by far the most valuable and versatile item creation feat and it still would be without oils and elixirs in its list. It's not a big deal, it's just even less incentive to take Brew Potion over the infinitely more useful Craft Wondrous Item.
CWI has a more difficult prereq than BP, thus it should be able to do more.
CWI has a more difficult prereq than BP, thus it should be able to do more.
I'm confused. They both have the same prerequisite: Caster Level 3rd.
CWI has a more difficult prereq than BP, thus it should be able to do more.
Actually they both require the same prerequisite (CL 3). Furthermore by that logic Rings, Staves and Rods should all be extremely high utility feats ;)
I do agree that Brew Potion makes strong thematic sense in the game, single-use consumables that can be used by anyone are incredibly nice. The problem is that the utility of Brew Potion is so low that it's a non-choice for PCs, which is a shame.
Personally I think it's because Wands are too low in cost but I think an argument could also be made that potions should be cheaper.
Well, you run into the big problem that by 10th level you really want to make a lot of stuff that's higher level than 3rd. And you're sitting there going 'ugh, why'd I go with potion insted of CWI?'
I'm wondering if it would 'break' anything to move all elixirs and oils to brew potion and remove the cap. It's priced the same way wondrous items are.
I'd keep the cap with wands, though; they're already priced ultracheap, and CLW Pez dispensers are useful forever, really.
CWI has a more difficult prereq than BP, thus it should be able to do more.
Actually, in Pathfinder, it has an easier prereq. Brew Potion requires caster level 3rd. Craft Wondrous Item requires either caster level 3rd or the Master Craftsman feat.
A seventh-level fighter with seven ranks of Craft(Alchemy) can't make a potion of cure light wounds. But he can (at the cost of two feats) make an elixir of tumbling with a DC 12 Craft check (base 5, +2 for caster level, +5 for not having the spell prereq).