Blood for Blood (GM Reference)

Any chance I get this question answered? If not I'll just make something up that sounds good.

You should probably just go with whatever sounds good, Xymor. I doubt James went in-depth on the exact consequences of the manner in which Ovinrbaane can be destroyed. More important is that he gave you the information on how to go about it. Everything after that is in your hands.

I would simply say that the gravestones in the Boneyard are immune to damage. Pharasma probably wouldn't want her realm marred by destroyed gravestones :)

A couple of questions I wondered about while reading this adventure:

Sepoko is the priest-king of M'botuu, yet he doesn't have the special qualities of boggard priest-kings (from page 62, in the "Ecology of the Boggards" article. Is that by design?

The Derghodaemon mentions a gnaw attack. I see that James Jacobs said earlier in this thread that this attack was cut, but what was it originally?

Hmm. I know I had another question, but somehow I have forgotten it completely :)

Sepoko is the priest-king of M'botuu, yet he doesn't have the special qualities of boggard priest-kings (from page 62, in the "Ecology of the Boggards" article. Is that by design?

That's really an issue of parallel design. While Todd Stewart was writing the "Ecology of the Boggards," I was plunging into "Blood for Blood." And basically, we did so in an insulated bubble without checking in with each other. I did some cross-pollination of ideas with Jason Nelson for "War of the River Kings" but just didn't think to reach out to Todd, as well. I did delve into the bestiary write-up for boggard priest-kings from the Curse of the Crimson Throne series, though. And I incoporated everything I could from that bit of insight into boggard society.

The Derghodaemon mentions a gnaw attack. I see that James Jacobs said earlier in this thread that this attack was cut, but what was it originally?

I'd have to go back and check. But I believe the derghodaemon is listed in the Tome of Horrors. So, if you want to check that resource, I'd imagine there's a gnaw attack mentioned in there somewhere. Perhaps James wanted to tone that down? Or, I also know they were working on ramping up (and reinterpreting) some of the daemons for Bestiary 2. So, he may have changed up some stuff last minute for the derghodaemon. I didn't originally include that beastie in the adventure. James dropped him in there. So, maybe he'll wander by and comment as well?

My two-cents,
--Neil

Okay, thank you. I loved the adventure, by the way :)

Okay, thank you. I loved the adventure, by the way :)

Did anyone expand on the Gyronna cultists? What happened to the babies that they swapped? Where did they go? Are they really changeling babies like from Eberron? Thanks all my group really love this path so far.

Are wrote:

Okay, thank you. I loved the adventure, by the way :)

Did anyone expand on the Gyronna cultists? What happened to the babies that they swapped? Where did they go? Are they really changeling babies like from Eberron? Thanks all my group really love this path so far.

sorry I meant to post this in River Runs Red.

Well...strangely enough, you just happened to post in the forum for an adventure where the Gyronna cultists do make another appearance in the Kingmaker AP. Basically...

So...I hope that helps,
--Neil

Although I'm just starting VV, I've been thinking ahead about the battle for Tatzlford. My PCs (like many groups, I think) are keen to start building armies and using the mass combat rules. Fortunately for me, they're currently distracted by an irate lich.

Anyway - I was thinking that I might re-write the inital mass combat so that it uses the full rules as presented in WotRK. The problem I'm having is that the armies seem way too small. It's listed that there are 25 cavalry and 10 barbarians but to make these even armies with CR 1, they would have to be significantly high a level (fighter 6 and barbarian 8 respectively).

Not only that, but based on the sample armies, a hastily raised army formed of the Tatzlford residents would be at best level 3 warriors so I would need at least 100 units.

Ideally, I don't really want to run the combat with CR 1 armies either because they'll likely wipe each other out in the first round.

The one saving grace is that Tatzlford (in my game) is quite a bit larger than the one presented in BfB. Going with the rough proportion of defenders, it would be reasonable for me to have 200 level 2 warriors defend the city. That makes a CR 2 army.

Now, for the attacking force, I want to make them at least CR 2 each so that they are more powerful than the defending commoners.

For the barbarians, I could have 50 of them at level 5 each to get CR 2
For the cavalry, I could have 100 of them at level 3 each to also get CR2 (they would also get the ability to attack in the ranged phase). I could further beef them up by giving the barbarians the relentless brutality tactic and the cavalry the sniper support tactic.

I like the idea of the PCs taking on the trolls, but this leaves me with the problem of trying to integrate the rest of what was written in the first portion of BfB so that it has the same kind of feel (and results for win/loss/tie).

Has anyone else used the full Mass Combat rules for this first battle? If so, how did you modify things and how did things turn out?

I should first note that I'm using the suggested modifications to the mass combat rules. They can be found in the mass combat thread or in the game mechanics thread of my own campaign forum.

In response to my own question above, here's what I have so far:

Barbarians - Small Army of Humans (Barb 5) - CR 2
hp 13; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Relentless Brutality
Speed 2; Morale +1

Cavalry - Medium Army of mounted Humans (Ftr 3) - CR 2
hp 11; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Sniper Support
Resources: Mounted, Ranged Weapons
Speed 3; Morale +1

Tatzlford Militia - Large Army of Humans (War 2) - CR 2
hp 11; DV 12; OM +2
Speed 2; Morale +0

Now, the people of Tatzlford are defending their homes which gives them +2 OM and +2 DV for "battlefield advantage". If given warning about the attack, they have the opportunity to prepare. In this case, they can gain an additional +2 DV for "advantageous terrain" as well as equip themselves with ranged weapons.

PCs can aid in the defence by using magic. An area effect spell will (generally) give a bonus to OM and DV equal to the spell level for the round that it is cast.

After the battle is decided, we have the PCs try to fend off the trolls as written (which is sort of happening simultaneously).

The battle is won if the militia defeats the opposing forces and the PCs can defeat the trolls in at most 11 rounds.

The battle is tied if the militia is defeated or if it takes the PCs longer than 11 rounds to defeat the trolls (but not both).

The battle is lost if the militia is defeated and it takes the PCs longer than 11 rounds to defeat the trolls. The PCs can also lose if they are killed or flee.

If the PCs have an army already stationed in Tatzlford, it's stats would be used instead of the militia given above unless the militia is better. In that case, they would not gain the "battlefield advantage" but could still gain the "advantageous terrain" bonus if they have time to prepare.

I've played through the battle a couple times and it seems that if you're well prepared and focus on cutting down the barbarians as they approach, you can then adopt a fairly defensive strategy and beat the Cavalry. It's very hard to win without magical support from PCs (which I think is fine - if they weren't there, you'd expect Tatzlford to fall). I'd be happy for any comments or suggestions from anyone whose bothered to read all of this... :)

Is anyone else having issues getting their PCs to level 13 by the end of this adventure?

As much as I try, they still need around 35,000-40,000 experience each to level up to 13.

Any suggestions? Am I missing something?

Also the entire time we have played through the first three modules and this one, I have only rolled ONE, yes ONE, random encounter....are you guys counting several random encounters into the experience pool?

Is anyone else having issues getting their PCs to level 13 by the end of this adventure?

As much as I try, they still need around 35,000-40,000 experience each to level up to 13.

Any suggestions? Am I missing something?

Also the entire time we have played through the first three modules and this one, I have only rolled ONE, yes ONE, random encounter....are you guys counting several random encounters into the experience pool?

Yeah - one random encounter by this point is very low. I think I ended up with 5 or 6 just by the end of the first book. You roll each time they move into a new hex, right? And every day and every night they're in the wilderness? You should have probably made hundreds of rolls by now so the law of averages says you should have about a dozen at the least.

Also, don't forget the xp from finishing quests (and not just the ones on the inside covers. Some of the quests are listed in the text but are still awarded the xp bonus.

Finally, the PCs are really only supposed to be 12th level when they face Armag. By defeating him they're supposed to just get into 13th level so that may have something to do with it.

Bigmancheatle wrote:

Is anyone else having issues getting their PCs to level 13 by the end of this adventure?

As much as I try, they still need around 35,000-40,000 experience each to level up to 13.

Any suggestions? Am I missing something?

Also the entire time we have played through the first three modules and this one, I have only rolled ONE, yes ONE, random encounter....are you guys counting several random encounters into the experience pool?

Yeah - one random encounter by this point is very low. I think I ended up with 5 or 6 just by the end of the first book. You roll each time they move into a new hex, right? And every day and every night they're in the wilderness? You should have probably made hundreds of rolls by now so the law of averages says you should have about a dozen at the least.

Also, don't forget the xp from finishing quests (and not just the ones on the inside covers. Some of the quests are listed in the text but are still awarded the xp bonus.

Finally, the PCs are really only supposed to be 12th level when they face Armag. By defeating him they're supposed to just get into 13th level so that may have something to do with it.

I have rolled maybe 100-150 times, and I am serious, only that one random encounter...and it ended up being two adult black dragons lol.

Yea I have given then all that experience, they have completed every single side quest, and I even went back and tallied it up. They are short around 35-40K experience even after defeating Armag....so not sure what to do...

In the next module it says they may not have reached 13th by the start and suggest letting them build up their Kingdom as well as random encounters to get them to the next level before starting Module 5.

I guess all of those random encounters add up over time...

Weird idea…just give them the exp to get ’em to the next level. Makes just as much sense as rolling a jillion random encounters, and takes far less time. :D

Weird idea…just give them the exp to get ’em to the next level. Makes just as much sense as rolling a jillion random encounters, and takes far less time. :D

yeah, hand wave, maybe move the time line on

After a 5 month break from GMing this (where i was got to be a player, wahoo) im about to start this mod (session #28 in total). Party of 7 are lvl 8-9. May tie up a few loose ends in VV until they are all at least 9th...or just add 6 months and make them at least 9th

any pitfalls in this mod, or stuff that made you go bleech OR youchie?

Barbarians - Small Army of Humans (Barb 5) - CR 2
hp 13; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Relentless Brutality
Speed 2; Morale +1

Cavalry - Medium Army of mounted Humans (Ftr 3) - CR 2
hp 11; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Sniper Support
Resources: Mounted, Ranged Weapons
Speed 3; Morale +1

I'm going to use the above armies (and trolls of course) for my group. They wanted to get into making military units really early, and have some units of their own. None stationed in Tatzylford because it keeps getting the random kingdom event "plague". lol. But they have ALOT of BP also so they can activate some military untis. Thanks for the above suggestions!

Frank

Ok, I notice the module suggests the PCs are well into level 11 when they go after the baron and level 12 when they go after Armag. At the start of this my PCs are just barely into level 10. Should I hold off on the "surprise" attack to kick off this module and perhaps play up the PCs getting rid of the Boggards and secure their east border (the random encounter and a few set encounters should put them into level 11 by that point) and then run the surprise attack? Any suggestions on level 10 group in Drelev keep vs. level 11?

Ok, I notice the module suggests the PCs are well into level 11 when they go after the baron and level 12 when they go after Armag. At the start of this my PCs are just barely into level 10. Should I hold off on the "surprise" attack to kick off this module and perhaps play up the PCs getting rid of the Boggards and secure their east border (the random encounter and a few set encounters should put them into level 11 by that point) and then run the surprise attack? Any suggestions on level 10 group in Drelev keep vs. level 11?

Yes, I would definitively do this. I have the same problem happening now in my own group. This, plus the fact that my party went straight to the barbarian camp (to rescue the daughters was their top priority after defending Tatzlford) makes it a bit hard for them as the encounters are somewhat too hard.

In hindsight, I should have started the adventure with Garuum approached the PC's, so they would first encounter the Boggard Tribe. And only thereafter have them defend Tatzlford.

Also, I would not make Kissandra have a captured daughter. It will be better when she was actually supposed to be the hostage, and therefore her (and thus the PC's) first priority is to rescue her father. This will keep your players more on track I hope, so they wont be killed just because of their lower levels.

Am I missing something on the Battle of Tatzelford?

The PCs are supposed to win. But the attackers are 8/15 and the defenders start at 0/10. The PCs, if they did not have forewarning, can use the various defense things, which are +3 each, but get only 3 of them. So the defenders end up with a total considerably below the attackers' (attackers have +13 in total, defenders only +9). Maybe if the points are put in really asymmetrically the defenders might win, but it looks like on odds they will lose.

This could be changed by having the PCs throw spells: if they throw a 5th level spell each of the three rounds, that's another +5 and the fight looks somewhat equal--assuming that you can do that in addition to the three defensive preparations, which is logical but not what the rules seem to say. But still, +13 vs +14 is not something you'd want to bet on with only three rolls--it's basically a crapshoot.

My player would not put up with this, since his chance of winning would be a LOT higher by simply ignoring the militia and fighting it himself. 10th level characters, after all!

Has anyone run this straight? What happened?

The mass combat rules cannot be used without scaling things up unreasonably. (We just realized we're heading, in the transition between Varnhold and Blood, for a fight with 40 ogres on one side and 18 giants on the other--but 40 ogres is less than the smallest possible ogre army, darn it. I think armies need to be allowed to be quite a bit smaller.)

Frank Williams 624 wrote:

Ok, I notice the module suggests the PCs are well into level 11 when they go after the baron and level 12 when they go after Armag. At the start of this my PCs are just barely into level 10. Should I hold off on the "surprise" attack to kick off this module and perhaps play up the PCs getting rid of the Boggards and secure their east border (the random encounter and a few set encounters should put them into level 11 by that point) and then run the surprise attack? Any suggestions on level 10 group in Drelev keep vs. level 11?

Yes, I would definitively do this. I have the same problem happening now in my own group. This, plus the fact that my party went straight to the barbarian camp (to rescue the daughters was their top priority after defending Tatzlford) makes it a bit hard for them as the encounters are somewhat too hard.

Yeah, this is what I'm going to do next session. I am not going to use Gorum though, instead I plan on having some of the PCs leaders come up with the idea of opening trade through the river would REALLY benefit their kingdom's economy and draw the attention of the other kingdoms (like Daggermark, Mivon, and Pitax) in the area (something the PCs want to do anyway). Scouts have been sent by the kingdoms NPC leaders as well as some pathfinders, and one who escaped (thank you little letter from the ecology of boggards article) will relate that the boggards block any river traffic. If the PCs think to go see Gorum then he will reward them with the fly and come with them but they may not think of it.

Also that is a great idea concerning the barbarian tribes vs. fort drelev. I'm sure my party will assume the barbarians are the easier target, not the fort, and go to the camp to get beat down. I'll have all three of them be (father plus daughters) in the castle, but the two will have been moved "at the last second" to the barbarian camp.

Am I missing something on the Battle of Tatzelford?

The PCs are supposed to win. But the attackers are 8/15 and the defenders start at 0/10. The PCs, if they did not have forewarning, can use the various defense things, which are +3 each, but get only 3 of them. So the defenders end up with a total considerably below the attackers' (attackers have +13 in total, defenders only +9). Maybe if the points are put in really asymmetrically the defenders might win, but it looks like on odds they will lose.

This could be changed by having the PCs throw spells: if they throw a 5th level spell each of the three rounds, that's another +5 and the fight looks somewhat equal--assuming that you can do that in addition to the three defensive preparations, which is logical but not what the rules seem to say. But still, +13 vs +14 is not something you'd want to bet on with only three rolls--it's basically a crapshoot.

My player would not put up with this, since his chance of winning would be a LOT higher by simply ignoring the militia and fighting it himself. 10th level characters, after all!

Has anyone run this straight? What happened?

The mass combat rules cannot be used without scaling things up unreasonably. (We just realized we're heading, in the transition between Varnhold and Blood, for a fight with 40 ogres on one side and 18 giants on the other--but 40 ogres is less than the smallest possible ogre army, darn it. I think armies need to be allowed to be quite a bit smaller.)

I plan on using the units given in the earlier posts with the cavalry and barbarian horde. I'm mach ran it and the PCs will usually always win with my group. Keep in mind though that mine have created several military units in most of their cities. (500 heavy cavalry unit with a second unit of 100 archers is their main "mobile" unit I suspect they will defend a town with.)

Am I missing something on the Battle of Tatzelford?

The PCs are supposed to win. But the attackers are 8/15 and the defenders start at 0/10. The PCs, if they did not have forewarning, can use the various defense things, which are +3 each, but get only 3 of them. So the defenders end up with a total considerably below the attackers' (attackers have +13 in total, defenders only +9). Maybe if the points are put in really asymmetrically the defenders might win, but it looks like on odds they will lose.

This could be changed by having the PCs throw spells: if they throw a 5th level spell each of the three rounds, that's another +5 and the fight looks somewhat equal--assuming that you can do that in addition to the three defensive preparations, which is logical but not what the rules seem to say. But still, +13 vs +14 is not something you'd want to bet on with only three rolls--it's basically a crapshoot.

First off, by the time you get here, your PCs should be making their loyalty checks almost all the time so getting forwarning is almost automatic which gives the equivalent of another +9 to their rolls. So, even if the PCs don't participate, you're now looking at +13 vs. +18 which is pretty good.

When the PCs do participate by casting area effect spells, the level of the spell is added to both the offense and defense. So, that 5th level spell you mention actually makes the contests a +13 vs. +28. I certainly know who I'd be betting on.

Regardless, I think the battle is a little too easy for the villagers to win without PC intervention which is why I'm going to be using the tougher armies as listed a couple posts above (with the full mass combat rules).

Regardless, I think the battle is a little too easy for the villagers to win without PC intervention which is why I'm going to be using the tougher armies as listed a couple posts above (with the full mass combat rules).

I agree. I ran a full combat battle at Varnhold after my PCs waited a year after it disapeared hoping Vordakai would "go away". It was attacked by an army of dread zombie villagers. I used full mass combat rules and Varnhold held but on the last round both armies ended up destroying each other. My PCs were very lucky with rolling up until that point and the fact Varnhold had walls and a watchtower was a huge bonus to a much weaker army unit the PCs used. There was also a cleric and wizard PC casting spells that was a huge help. The other PCs ended up fighting off a dread zombie Kesten Garess. Overall my players really enjoyed the mass combat rules. I've just gotta stall and start the battle in Tatzylford just before my PCs hit 11th level.

Sorry if this has been posted and I overlooked it in looking for my answer.

My adventurers have just finished Varnhold Vanishing and we're about to have a four to seven year ingame brake between part 3 and 4. I personally like having the big breaks as it gives downtime to role play and explore some side plots, as well as makes the adventure just feel more real to me (what kingdom is besieged non-stop).

What my question is, what is an appropriate size for their kingdom to be before starting this part of the adventure path.

As of the annexing of Varnhold the PCs kingdom is now 97 hexes and they are about to coronate the new King at the start of the new year. With Five years I anticipate they'll have finished filling in the hexes they do not currently hold (all of the available hexes that are not part of Brevory, close to Brevory, and territory of the Centaurs).

They already have a castle in each of their four cities, and are have filled about five city grids between these four cities (the capital is two full grids).

So I'm curious if I should plague them with events to keep the size down or if their current Kingdom, with 5 years (60 turns) of building will be acceptable size for this coming part. With modified rules so minor/medium/and major items just equal a +1/+2/+3 to the Econ score they are averageing 35 to 40 BPs a turn.

Well, according to page 9 of VV, the PC's kingdom should be between 75-80 when they start BfB. Of course, that's just a suggestion and I'd be inclined to say that you have a good deal of discretion regarding their progression.

I think the biggest issue you'll probably have is regarding the attack at Tatzlford. If this is one of their four cities (and it has a castle) the paltry force sent against them doesn't stand a chance even if the PCs do nothing to help out.

I think I misread the note in VV, I thought they should be that range prior to the annexing of Varnhold.

Thank you for the information, I just didn't want them to be so large that it made conflicts trivial in the next couple parts. I think I'll take a suggestion earlier in this thread and have some other city attacked.

They were talking about building more settlements.. I'll wait until one of these is built up, but still a bit poorly defended, and have it take the blunt of the attack.

I'll probably need to really look at the fifth AP also, for the mass combat rules. My PCs have been very expansionist and also good at fortifying. Their long term goal is unification of the entire River Kingdoms, so they've tried not to leave to many holes in their defense.

My lot had walls / castle when the attack came.......i just had a mystery spellcaster blast down a wall to cause some panic before the trolls surged in

Im liking this mod so far...for a start they finally ran away from an encounter (they got a random enc at the same point as the flooded mine.....4 dracolisks!! they did some knowledge, tracks etc + discussion and decided to come back another day!!)

Is Sepoko's +1 icy morningstar really a +1 frost morningstar or a +1 icy burst morningstar?

So as an alternate reason to start the module, here is what I ended up doing. This just gives more reason for an actual assault on the PCs nation.

After my PCs dealt with the boggards (a mini-adventure designed to get them closer to level 11) they decided to tie up a loose end that has been bugging them. Dovan of Nisiroth (from Stolen Lands) had escaped. They scryed him and then teleported to his location ot try and capture him. He had assumed the mantle of Drelev's "Royal Assassin". So the PCs teleported in to what they assumed to be a nice room at a nice inn to capture Dovan. In actuality they teleported into Fort Drelev's castle. Dovan, using his Cape of the Montebanc, D-doored away and the castle went on alert. The PCs had no idea where they were (since Scry only gave a 10 foot radius around Dovan) they heard the alarm and just teleported back to their capital.

Baron Drelev assumes this is a kidnapping attempt, blames the PCs as aggressors against his nation, the Drelev Demense, and declares the PCs enemies of the nation and calls for a meeting on "neutral ground" in Mivon.

Whether or not the PCs take the bait (which I doubt they will), their nation gets attacked as Drelev moves for "vengence". This lessens the ties Drelev has with Pitax initially in the PCs eyes, which I like since I like Pitax as a "wild card" nation to the west.

You could adapt this easily by just having Drelev's assassin target someone important to the PCs and when the PCs retaliate have Drelev declare them enemies of the state.

Does anyone see any plot issues with this that I am not thinking of??
I hope this makes sense...

Is Sepoko's +1 icy morningstar really a +1 frost morningstar or a +1 icy burst morningstar?

I made it +1 icy burst morningstar. (but it looks like the one in the picture, so my PCs just gave it to Gorum the Boggard in exchange for his services as a scout when ever they need him in the slough)

Geeky Frignit wrote:

Is Sepoko's +1 icy morningstar really a +1 frost morningstar or a +1 icy burst morningstar?

I made it +1 icy burst morningstar. (but it looks like the one in the picture, so my PCs just gave it to Gorum the Boggard in exchange for his services as a scout when ever they need him in the slough)

I broke down NPC gear based on level from the Core Rulebook, and if it was icy burst, it would give him gear about 10k over the recommended amount. I went with frost.

My original turnover only had it as a +1 morningstar, but the developers chose to alter the levels for which the adventure had been written, so they had to go back and bump up several of the stat-blocks. Thus, Sepoko's weapon became a +1 icy morningstar, which they probably meant as a +1 frost morningstar.

I'm getting ready to run Blood for Blood, and it caught my eye that several of the encounters seem like they will be boringly trivial for my group (which I don't think is atypical).

For example, the Boggard Ambush on p. 18 consists of 14 CR 2 boggards facing 10th-level PCs. The Haunted Fen (p. 20) is a single CR 6 monster. The Dragonfly Glade (p. 27) has 8 dragonflies, CR 4 each.

10th-level PCs will be more-or-less impervious to these opponents. Of course, a bunch of boggards could team up using aid another and score a hit... for something like 1d8+3 hp. And they'll be dead before their next turn.

Are these encounters intended to be pushovers? I can see the value of giving the PCs the opportunity to stomp over a bunch of weaklings, but in my experience, it only works well when mixed up with difficult encounters: wade through 20 boggards to get to the CR 14 boggard shaman. Perhaps you even used up a spell or a round of rage you wish you had now...

Due to Kingmaker's peculiar pacing (one or two encounters per day while exploring), extremely easy encounters like these seem nearly pointless.

Am I missing something that will make fireballing or Whirlwind Attacking CR 2 boggards at 10th level exciting for my players?

I think it has been mentioned elsewhere that these encounters are designed to allow the players a chance to feel relatively powerful. Hacking down a dozen foes is good for the players ego after all.

There are sufficient brutal encounters throughout the AP which will stretch the players to the limit. I have had 3 character deaths in the AP and I am halfway through Blood for Blood. I think that is about standard.

Not every battle should be a life or death struggle. Sometimes you need to let the players be the heroes that they are.

If you feel that you don't agree with this view and you want to make every encounter a tough fight then give some of the opponents levels or increase the size catagory.

As I've said above, I can certainly see the fun in contrasting the tough fights with some in which the PCs get to feel unstoppable, but in my experience, that contrast with the tough fight is necessary. Just the overwhelmingly easy fight in isolation seems pointless.

And these fights are extremely likely to take place in isolation: these aren't rooms in a dungeon, but locations "of note" on the Kingmaker overland exploration hexmap, which means that they're likely to be preceded and followed by days of mostly uneventful travel.

Those encounters aren't meant so much as pure combat encounters as an opportunity for your PCs to learn more about the kinds of challenges settlers face in that area. It's not like all the higher CR monsters just happened to gravitate to swamp rather than the PCs' kingdom. There are high and low CR threats in every region throughout the Stolen Lands. And, the settlers of Fort Drelev have faced their share of problems with the boggards and other creatures that menace their territory, just like the PCs did when they were 1st level.

Also, as the earlier posted mentioned, these encoutners are designed so PCs have a chance to come into their own and absolutely crush a few things that would normally challenge the inhabitants living in the Drelev Demesne. This accomplishes two things. Or, three, maybe...when you think it through. One, the PCs get to shine and feel powerful without feeling like they're just having to burn through resources to reach the big bad guy everytime. Two, they're elevating themselves in the eyes of the settlers in the Drelev Demesne, demonstrating they're more than equal to the task of protecting them...and thereby making it potentially easier to win them over when the PCs consolidate Drelev's holdings into their growing kingdom. And, three, with respect to the easy boggard encounter, it helps to foreshadow the far bigger showdown with the boggard priest-king down the road.

Bottom line, I'd suggest you think outside the box on the mechanical aspects of these "easy encounters" and look beyond the numbers at the story these encounters can help frame over the course of the adventure. That's primarily what they're there for...and storytelling GMs should be able to make great use of that, because even a combat encounter isn't always "just" a combat encounter. In narrative terms, they can be a lot more fun than the numbers suggest.

Just my two cents,
--Neil

Party are in the dungeon, session 38

druid is being an air elemental to clear up fog, the AC 18 of the clerics got them slaughtered in the end, and the two traps where a lot of fun and a nice change
i fear the iron golem is gonna be slaughtered as the party have 3 scarabs....looking forward to them meeting the daemon.....

I just started reading Blood for Blood, and I'm a bit worried that Pitax's involvement will force everyone's hand in the next adventure. Winning the Fort Drelev campaign and then visiting Irovetti's tournament months or years later in an atmosphere of veiled enmity is makes for a pretty good story, but knowing my players (and players in general), there will be nothing veiled about their enmity. If they know Irovetti is behind Fort Drelev and the Tiger Lords, they're going after him as soon as humanly possible, which obviates not only Irovetti's tournament, but also puts the kingdom building on hold for the better part of two adventures.

How obvious is Pitax's involvement in the events of Blood for Blood, and how to best minimize it?

I just started reading Blood for Blood, and I'm a bit worried that Pitax's involvement will force everyone's hand in the next adventure. Winning the Fort Drelev campaign and then visiting Irovetti's tournament months or years later in an atmosphere of veiled enmity is makes for a pretty good story, but knowing my players (and players in general), there will be nothing veiled about their enmity. If they know Irovetti is behind Fort Drelev and the Tiger Lords, they're going after him as soon as humanly possible, which obviates not only Irovetti's tournament, but also puts the kingdom building on hold for the better part of two adventures.

How obvious is Pitax's involvement in the events of Blood for Blood, and how to best minimize it?

I have managed to play it down, by exchange of a few diplomatic letters and assumption they can worl together against the foreboding chaos to come

when BfB starts im assuming Irovetti is still his own man, and over a very bad winter he starts to go to the darker side. They are just about to reach this winter and the parties kingdom and irovettis now share a border

Im assuming therefore when the spring comes and the tourney is held there are still on ok relations

Barbarians - Small Army of Humans (Barb 5) - CR 2

hp 13; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Relentless Brutality
Speed 2; Morale +1

Cavalry - Medium Army of mounted Humans (Ftr 3) - CR 2
hp 11; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Sniper Support
Resources: Mounted, Ranged Weapons
Speed 3; Morale +1

Tatzlford Militia - Large Army of Humans (War 2) - CR 2
hp 11; DV 12; OM +2
Speed 2; Morale +0

My group finally got to this portion of the campaign and I ran the Battle of Tatzlford as I described above using these armies. The PCs were fighting the trolls at the same time and I used the rule that every three rounds of tactical combat was one round of mass combat. PCs on the "edge" of the battlemats for the fight against the trolls could spend a full round action to move over to the mass combat portion of the battle and participate by casting area effect spells.

I've got to say, it was an epic fight and my players agreed it was the best encounter of the AP so far (though, the Stag Lord fight was a close second). They took the trolls out in 8 rounds and although the sorcerer used every spell in his arsenal, the defending militia eked out a win in the same round that they are reduced to 2 hp and would have routed.

Well...strangely enough, you just happened to post in the forum for an adventure where the Gyronna cultists do make another appearance in the Kingmaker AP. Basically...

** spoiler omitted **

So...I hope that helps,
--Neil

I've expanded the involvement of Gyronna quite a bit. My pcs are definitely paranoid and out for blood at the same time. She's a good church to hate. :)

So...I hope that helps,
--Neil

me too, they know they are up against some entities whose whispered names are 'she' and 'her'....who are G and N

I've got to say, it was an epic fight and my players agreed it was the best encounter of the AP so far (though, the Stag Lord fight was a close second). They took the trolls out in 8 rounds and although the sorcerer used every spell in his arsenal, the defending militia eked out a win in the same round that they are reduced to 2 hp and would have routed.

That sounds like a really cool way to run it. I love the idea of mass combat turns occuring during regular combat turns. The notion of mixing personal one-on-one battles with the opportunity to spend an action assisting the grander melee of the mass combat is an awesome way to swing it. Personally, if I were running the encounter, that's probably what I'd favor doing as well. It's a lot more cinematic that way. And it crosses the streams between the two types of combat so they can play off one another.

Two thumbs up,
--Neil

Tem wrote:

Barbarians - Small Army of Humans (Barb 5) - CR 2

hp 13; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Relentless Brutality
Speed 2; Morale +1

Cavalry - Medium Army of mounted Humans (Ftr 3) - CR 2
hp 11; DV 12; OM +2
Tactics: Sniper Support
Resources: Mounted, Ranged Weapons
Speed 3; Morale +1

Tatzlford Militia - Large Army of Humans (War 2) - CR 2
hp 11; DV 12; OM +2
Speed 2; Morale +0

My group finally got to this portion of the campaign and I ran the Battle of Tatzlford as I described above using these armies. The PCs were fighting the trolls at the same time and I used the rule that every three rounds of tactical combat was one round of mass combat. PCs on the "edge" of the battlemats for the fight against the trolls could spend a full round action to move over to the mass combat portion of the battle and participate by casting area effect spells.

I've got to say, it was an epic fight and my players agreed it was the best encounter of the AP so far (though, the Stag Lord fight was a close second). They took the trolls out in 8 rounds and although the sorcerer used every spell in his arsenal, the defending militia eked out a win in the same round that they are reduced to 2 hp and would have routed.

Man that is an awesome idea ...I'm gonna have to borrow that idea thnx.

Man that is an awesome idea ...I'm gonna have to borrow that idea thnx.

Thanks. Basically, after deciding that I wanted to run the full mass combat rules and setting up the armies that would be involved, I ran it through a couple times to see how long (on average) it might last. I figured that the PCs would either win or lose within 5 mass combat rounds. They also *really* need some PCs to help out or the militia would be toast. So, our spellcaster (the duke) was pretty much out of the combat with the trolls so he could keep the militia alive. Since I used a 1:3 ratio for the rounds though, he could cast in the mass combat, pop back and fire something off against the trolls and pop back again in time to cast another spell in the next mass combat round.

That way, everyone had something to do but resources were split. It actually meant the fight against the trolls was a bit more interesting since they all weren't blasted to hell right off the bat.

Oh - I also used some villager NPCs in the fight against the trolls but didn't really make rolls for them. Their purpose was just to soak troll attacks and give the PCs the sense that people were dying all around them and they had to win quickly (they have to kill the trolls within 11 rounds for it to be considered a success).

PJ wrote:

Man that is an awesome idea ...I'm gonna have to borrow that idea thnx.

Thanks. Basically, after deciding that I wanted to run the full mass combat rules and setting up the armies that would be involved, I ran it through a couple times to see how long (on average) it might last. I figured that the PCs would either win or lose within 5 mass combat rounds. They also *really* need some PCs to help out or the militia would be toast. So, our spellcaster (the duke) was pretty much out of the combat with the trolls so he could keep the militia alive. Since I used a 1:3 ratio for the rounds though, he could cast in the mass combat, pop back and fire something off against the trolls and pop back again in time to cast another spell in the next mass combat round.

That way, everyone had something to do but resources were split. It actually meant the fight against the trolls was a bit more interesting since they all weren't blasted to hell right off the bat.

Oh - I also used some villager NPCs in the fight against the trolls but didn't really make rolls for them. Their purpose was just to soak troll attacks and give the PCs the sense that people were dying all around them and they had to win quickly (they have to kill the trolls within 11 rounds for it to be considered a success).

very nice set-up. I think I'm going to do it from now on.

party butchered the (advanced) iron golem

had loads difficulty with the dreghodaemon

creeping doom was awesome
insect plague got dispelled magic
managed to feeblemind 4 PCs incl 2 sorcerors and the bard
3 down and bleeding

awesome combat

two pcs who are air elementals a lot and others who have flight so most traps where bypassed

party battered and bruised, but still bravely pushing on....

all done

session 40

did my best to keep Z a challenge.
Armag dished out a lot of damage but got annhilated by the parties bear in round 2
the skellies were good fun

id much rather run a 8 x CR 7 or 4 x CR 9 fight than 1 x CR 13

piles treasure to sort out now

Is anyone else having issues getting their PCs to level 13 by the end of this adventure?

As much as I try, they still need around 35,000-40,000 experience each to level up to 13.

Any suggestions? Am I missing something?

Also the entire time we have played through the first three modules and this one, I have only rolled ONE, yes ONE, random encounter....are you guys counting several random encounters into the experience pool?

Yeah, I just went through the adventure to sum up the XP, and there aren't enough in there to level a four PC party up to thirteenth level, let alone a five PC party, which is what I am dealing with.

Combined with the extreme number of faceroll encounters ( seriously, sixteen CR 3's against a level 10-12 party? Multiple times? You could have just written "and the GM and his group of players waste four hours killing complete non-threats to their PC's, give out XY amount of XP", that would have been more merciful ), this isn't shaping up to be my favourite module of the AP. At least I got Jason's "Director's Cut" version of War of the River Kings to look forward next module...

I guess I'll just begin telling my players that they can stop adding up XP, I'll just tell them when they level up. That way I won't need to add twenty random encounters to this and The Varnhold Vanishing ( which also has way not enough XP ).

Bigmancheatle wrote:

Is anyone else having issues getting their PCs to level 13 by the end of this adventure?

As much as I try, they still need around 35,000-40,000 experience each to level up to 13.

Any suggestions? Am I missing something?

Also the entire time we have played through the first three modules and this one, I have only rolled ONE, yes ONE, random encounter....are you guys counting several random encounters into the experience pool?

Yeah, I just went through the adventure to sum up the XP, and there aren't enough in there to level a four PC party up to thirteenth level, let alone a five PC party, which is what I am dealing with.

Combined with the extreme number of faceroll encounters ( seriously, sixteen CR 3's against a level 10-12 party? Multiple times? You could have just written "and the GM and his group of players waste four hours killing complete non-threats to their PC's, give out XY amount of XP", that would have been more merciful ), this isn't shaping up to be my favourite module of the AP. At least I got Jason's "Director's Cut" version of War of the River Kings to look forward next module...

I guess I'll just begin telling my players that they can stop adding up XP, I'll just tell them when they level up. That way I won't need to add twenty random encounters to this and The Varnhold Vanishing ( which also has way not enough XP ).

That's when you make not so random encounters.My set and random encounters so far have been a lot more memorable and challenging. Only you know your group.

That's when you make not so random encounters. My set and random encounters so far have been a lot more memorable and challenging. Only you know your group.

Yeah, well, I hope for mostly at least somewhat challenging encounters from a published AP, not so many facerolls. ^^ If this would be an online MMO, I wouldn't be so put out by that... at least those encounters are over in less than two minutes. But since Pathfinder combats take several hours to adjudicate, not to forget to draw the map and so on...

I guess it just strikes me as strange that the XP gain is so much all over the map with Kingmaker. Module 3 and 4 need additional random encounters to make even a four PC party gain the supposed level they should have at the end of the module. Module one has exactly enough XP for a four PC party, module two has enough XP for a five PC party to get to the desired level.

All very odd.