Despite their appealing flavor, dexterity-based characters suffer in combat because weapon damage is keyed off strength. It seems that the only way to optimize damage output with rogues or monks (for example) is to pump strength, which might defeat the purpose/concept of playing those kinds of characters, and often comes at the expense of dexterity in point buys. So, I was wondering if there was anything in the works (e.g. alternate class feature, feats) to help with this problem, or another thread on this topic?
There are lots of examples of feats or class features that reduce MAD in 3.5: the stone warden from the deepwarden PrC (Con to AC instead of DEX), zen archery feat (wisdom to ranged attack rolls), brutal throw (strength to ranged attack rolls), etc. None of these were particularly hard to get, but getting DEX to damage was/is. To illustrate, in 3.5 there was elegant strike, which was a class feature of the Champion of Corellon Larethian PrC (Races of the Wild), which gave dexterity to damage in addition to strength, but only with a handful of weapons and with onerous entry requirements (elf/half-elf, lots of armor and weapon proficiency and at least a half dozen feats), and a similar concept was present in a home-brew swashbuckler base class for Pathfinder by SmiloDan some time ago(don't know how to link, first time poster, sorry), which became available only at 17th level. It seems like people think that this is a very potent ability. I am probably missing something, but why is this something that shouldn’t be more easily available? Of course, having BOTH strength and dex (and all of strength, intelligence and dex in the case of the swashbuckler) is pretty great and shouldn't be a low-level option, but what would be game breaking or unbalanced about simply having dexterity to damage INSTEAD of strength, even for low-level characters?
I understand that DEX also contributes to AC, initiative, ranged attack rolls and useful skills (acrobatics, stealth, disable device), whereas STR contributes to attack, damage, CMB and …scratches self with appendage, trying to think… carrying capacity and a few situational skills (climb, jump, swim), I guess. so some balancing is necessary, but why shouldn’t a character be able to focus on dex and be decent at dealing damage? It would be nice way to make rogues especially but also monks and to some extent rangers more viable and flavorful.
So, what about something like the following feat?
Improved Weapon Finesse. Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse.
You are able to land precise and telling blows.
Benefit: You may use your dexterity modifier in place of your strength modifier as a bonus on weapon damage rolls when using a weapon that can have the Weapon Finesse feat applied to it. This damage bonus is not multiplied by 1 ½ when wielding a 2 handed weapon and applies only to the primary weapon if using more than one. This damage does not apply to creatures who are immune to critical hits.
If that isn’t going to make the whole class system crumble, one could even add the damage to ranged attacks within 30’ (or have a separate feat for this). I’m also not sure if the wording above would allow for dex on every attack of a flurry, or if that should be spelled out as well.
I realize that this is unlikely to be used in any official capacity, but any feedback is welcome if people can see unanticipated consequences of allowing this as a custom rule in a campaign? Any undervalued high-dex granting spells,items, PrCs, PC monster races to worry about maybe (githerzai and bite of the wererat come to mind)?
This feat is quite similar to the Dervish Dance feat in Pathfinder Companion: Qadira, so I don't think it is unbalanced at all.
You might want to check it. I'd paste it here but I don't think it's allowed.
A question:
What does it mean it applies only to the primary weapon? No benefit for offhand attacks? So flurry benefits but TWF no?
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So, what about something like the following feat?
Improved Weapon Finesse. Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse.
You are able to land precise and telling blows.
Benefit: You may use your dexterity modifier in place of your strength modifier as a bonus on weapon damage rolls when using a weapon that can have the Weapon Finesse feat applied to it. This damage bonus is not multiplied by 1 ½ when wielding a 2 handed weapon and applies only to the primary weapon if using more than one. This damage does not apply to creatures who are immune to critical hits.
I would raise the prerequisites, this should be a little harder to get than it is IMO. I would suggest making Weapon Focus also a prereq and having this feat work with any weapon with which Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse apply, which would represent your skill with the weapon better. That would also up the prereqs to base atk bonus +1.
Also, it should work with an off-hand weapon, I can't think of a good reason for it not to work. It should still work at 1/2 dex though, just to stay consistent.
Note: I'm not a huge fan of adding dex to weapon damage, it really seemed to break my Star Wars Saga game when the jedi knight prestige class gained this ability, but this isn't nearly as bad as "Ataru" was in that game.
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I'm personally very leery of adding Dex to damage...
There's a feat in Tome of Battle that allows you to do this when you're using a Shadow Hand school weapon and are in a Shadow Hand stance. Which for anyone focusing on that school means just about all the time. So for the elven Swordsage with 20 Dex in my game, his AC was through the roof (Dex to AC, able to wear light armor and gets a Wis bonus to AC...), he was doing a very high amount of damage and was very likely to hit at that, and his Reflex save or Dex-based skills were basically an automatic success. Ridiculously overpowered, and at the cost of only two feats and some pretty natural stylistic choices for wanting to be a shadowy ninja type...
Dex is already probably the best stat in the game. It affects some pretty good skills (Tumbling and Stealth), your AC (and importantly your Touch AC), your Reflex saves (not many classes have this as a good save) and your ranged attacks (and melee if you take Weapon Finesse). Adding it onto damage gives the stat an insane amount of priority. Why take Strength ever if you can just overload one simply better stat for the cost of a couple of feats?
This feat is quite similar to the Dervish Dance feat in Pathfinder Companion: Qadira, so I don't think it is unbalanced at all.
You might want to check it. I'd paste it here but I don't think it's allowed.
I do think it's allowed. All crunch stuff seems to be OGL, or Paizo's version of it. Just the 'flavor' or context text is not.
Feats, PrC's and Traits from the Taldor Companion are reproduced on the Grand OGL Wiki, and I don't see why Qadira is different.People quote the Core Rules text all the time.
Dervish Dance [Combat]
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with
a heavier blade.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform
(dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can
use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier
on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a
one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities
that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike
ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You
cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in
your off hand.
So it's definitely not substituting for STR. For one it only applies to Scimitar, only when used 1-Handed WITHOUT anything in other hand. Basically, when fighting in a sub-optimal-for-damage stance, your damage will be slightly better while letting you focus 100% on DEX. Even splitting their Stats between DEX and STR, somebody 2-Handing a Bastard Sword will easily out-do you damage-wise, and Sword-and-Boarding it will have equivalent damage but better AC with a Shield. And I think this is the base-line for such a feat: it's limitations are such that it isn't going to remotely compare to having both a high DEX and STR. But it expands the Duelist class to a more Arabian-themed cultural context and is actually quite effective at doing so.
The sentiment "why can't we do something to makes rogues, etc... viable"? Ignores the fact that all the classes as-is were in fact designed to be viable. Rogues certainly are. Making Rogues' damage output more consistent with Fighters when they CAN'T Sneak Attack just cuts across the entire premise of the class. Going with a STR-based 2-Hander Rogue, maybe with 3 levels of Fighter (for Mithril Fullplate Tumbling) slipped in here and there, is completely viable and effective. Try that if you want decent damage when not Sneak Attacking.
People quote the Core Rules text all the time.
Sure, I do it too, but I use the PRD mostly. Wasn't sure about other sources.
It seems that the main opinion here is to not allow Dex to damage unless it's heavily restricted to one specific weapon or by multiple feat, skill or abilities prerequisites.
Thanks your analysis, and Alice's, I can see why.
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What if you made the feat only apply to the specific weapon you have weapon focus for? That way it uses up at least 3 feats and only applies for a specific weapon.
Quick Strike
You have learned to maneuver your weapon to deal maximum damage through your movement rather than strength.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
Benefit: Choose a melee weapon in which you have the weapon focus feat for and that the weapon finesse feat applies. You may add your Dexterity to your damage rolls with your main hand. If you are using a weapon in your off-hand you only apply half your Dexterity bonus to damage with that weapon.
Special: This damage is not multiplied with a critical hit. This damage does not apply against creatures immune to critical hits.
The Qadira Feat clearly is about making an Arabian-themed Swashbuckler type work
(which thematically SHOULD work, it just didn't happen to by default, b/c of the damage type of Scimitars and their non-Finesse status).
What does that Feat do?
It seems like something almost ANY Rogue, or at least DEX-focused 2WF Rogues (90% of Rogues) would automatically take,
because without CHANGING anything they are already doing, they are instantly BETTER.
It's not that it seems over-whelmingly powerful (esp. with the Special text you put re: non-Crit-multiplication, which was a good touch),
but I just don't see a good reason WHY this Feat needs to exist.
Creative Director
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I used the Dervish Dance feat a LOT during yesterday's staff playtest of Erik's PFS scenario, and it certainly didn't feel unbalanced. It helped me play a swashbuckling character (high Dex, normal Str) as a viable melee fighter. I was doing comparable damage to the barbarian and cavalier once I got things going, but they were still doing more damage than me when they focused on their own specialities.
The key is that Dervish Dance doesn't let you STACK your Dex bonus with your Str bonus for damage. It replaces your Str bonus. So it's MAJOR advantage is to give Dex-based melee classes (like rogues, duelists, and in my case, bards) viability, and to allow you to actually use Str as a dump stat, sort of. The limitation of having to use only a specific weapon and not being able to use a shield makes it feel pretty balanced.
The OP's proposed "Improved Weapon Finesse" is an interesting idea. I've used a similar feat for years in my homebrew games and it never felt overbalanced. And since the swashbuckler type class is a hard one to build in the rules if you want to stand toe-to-toe with the more-standard high-Strength melee fighter, I think that a feat like this is pretty cool, personally.
My only concern is one that's been raised in this thread: Dexterity is already a VERY useful stat. It helps initiative, a LOT of skills, a save, ranged attacks, and your AC. Allowing it to also add to melee damage is probably going too far... but if the Feat or ability that lets you do this has some prerequisites and limitations (like the Dervish Dance feat does), I think that's probably okay.
thanks all for the thoughtful replies.
I remain unconvinced of the dex to damage fear, however.
The main argument seems to be that it would unbalance the rogue, for example, versus the fighter. I just don't see it, though. From a damage perspective, even my more permissive feat (as written) is just plain inferior to high Str 2handed style (which gets 1 1/2X Str, better weapons to choose from, and power attack). It does allow dex builds to dump str (with the exception of ranged damage), which is what it is designed to do. But, Str builds do that with dex, and tend to focus on armor for AC and items for resistance and evasion and having lots of HP for soaking up the failed saves on failed reflex saves. I think the feat would be a boost to rogues and monks, which is largely the point. although I expect some fighters would probably also take advantage, but I just don't everyone going with this. If nothing else, people seem very focused on DPR and it seems to me that it takes little effort to get people interested in playing hulking warrior types...
don't own the tome of battle, but it seems like "broken" is often used in the same breath :-)
the dervish dance feat is along the right track, but useless for monks. rogues would have to take another feat to get proficiency.
The OP's proposed "Improved Weapon Finesse" is an interesting idea. I've used a similar feat for years in my homebrew games and it never felt overbalanced. And since the swashbuckler type class is a hard one to build in the rules if you want to stand toe-to-toe with the more-standard high-Strength melee fighter, I think that a feat like this is pretty cool, personally.
My only concern is one that's been raised in this thread: Dexterity is already a VERY useful stat. It helps initiative, a LOT of skills, a save, ranged attacks, and your AC. Allowing it to also add to melee damage is probably going too far... but if the Feat or ability that lets you do this has some prerequisites and limitations (like the Dervish Dance feat does), I think that's probably okay.
Thanks!
To keep the feat in line with the dervish dance, applying to a single, finessable, weapon and having a 2 rank "skill tax" (perform, profession, or something else that is relatively weak) wouldn't prevent most from taking it. taking out 2-weapon combat would seriously reduce the number of rogues taking it, probably.
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Their's another feat that already does something similar. In the Dragon Compendium (and by extension Dragon #304), the feat "Dead Eye" lets you add your Dex to damage rolls on ranged weapons you have Weapon Focus on, as long as you're within 30 feet. It has crazy prerequisites though, notably a +14 BAB. I've used it before when i was playing a master thrower, and while it was awesome, it did seem a little too good at times at the high level we were playing (18). Although to be fair, against crit immunes it was worthless and their's alot of those at that high a level. I am curious as to how the prerequisites were determined.
I think the problem we're all having is a conceptual one inherent to the 3.x system. Strength to hit. Personally it seems to me that Dex should be the base to hit stat, it's hand-eye coordination and accuracy, where yes Strength should add to damage.
Furthermore, other than the Duelist, Swashbuckler or Rogue classes there's no RAW reflection of the idea that it's where you hit not how hard you hit that is important.
I think that Dervish Dance could easily be adapted to fill this role in PF. Let's take the name Precise Strike for now.
Precise Strike
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Dexterity 15+, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: When attacking with a single one handed or light melee weapon you may add your Dexterity bonus instead of your Strength bonus to damage. You lose benefit of this feat if you attack with an off-hand weapon or carry a shield.
This would allow you to still have an off-hand weapon (think main gauche) but you wouldn't benefit if you tried to attack with it. This would be very much the swashbuckler/duelist stance.
I used the Dervish Dance feat a LOT during yesterday's staff playtest of Erik's PFS scenario, and it certainly didn't feel unbalanced. It helped me play a swashbuckling character (high Dex, normal Str) as a viable melee fighter. I was doing comparable damage to the barbarian and cavalier once I got things going, but they were still doing more damage than me when they focused on their own specialities.
The key is that Dervish Dance doesn't let you STACK your Dex bonus with your Str bonus for damage. It replaces your Str bonus. So it's MAJOR advantage is to give Dex-based melee classes (like rogues, duelists, and in my case, bards) viability, and to allow you to actually use Str as a dump stat, sort of. The limitation of having to use only a specific weapon and not being able to use a shield makes it feel pretty balanced.
The OP's proposed "Improved Weapon Finesse" is an interesting idea. I've used a similar feat for years in my homebrew games and it never felt overbalanced. And since the swashbuckler type class is a hard one to build in the rules if you want to stand toe-to-toe with the more-standard high-Strength melee fighter, I think that a feat like this is pretty cool, personally.
My only concern is one that's been raised in this thread: Dexterity is already a VERY useful stat. It helps initiative, a LOT of skills, a save, ranged attacks, and your AC. Allowing it to also add to melee damage is probably going too far... but if the Feat or ability that lets you do this has some prerequisites and limitations (like the Dervish Dance feat does), I think that's probably okay.
I wouldn't mind helping monks, bards and swashbucklers, but why help rogues? They got their sneak attack. The whole class is based on that.
But monks and bards, (and swashbucklers) still have a damage problem.What about a feat that let you add half your dex to damage if you are using a light weapon (or a scimitar), etc?
Have Pathfinder designed a Dervish Dancer kind of a class? If so, where can I buy it?
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I used the Dervish Dance feat a LOT during yesterday's staff playtest of Erik's PFS scenario, and it certainly didn't feel unbalanced. It helped me play a swashbuckling character (high Dex, normal Str) as a viable melee fighter. I was doing comparable damage to the barbarian and cavalier once I got things going, but they were still doing more damage than me when they focused on their own specialities.
The key is that Dervish Dance doesn't let you STACK your Dex bonus with your Str bonus for damage. It replaces your Str bonus. So it's MAJOR advantage is to give Dex-based melee classes (like rogues, duelists, and in my case, bards) viability, and to allow you to actually use Str as a dump stat, sort of. The limitation of having to use only a specific weapon and not being able to use a shield makes it feel pretty balanced.
The OP's proposed "Improved Weapon Finesse" is an interesting idea. I've used a similar feat for years in my homebrew games and it never felt overbalanced. And since the swashbuckler type class is a hard one to build in the rules if you want to stand toe-to-toe with the more-standard high-Strength melee fighter, I think that a feat like this is pretty cool, personally.
My only concern is one that's been raised in this thread: Dexterity is already a VERY useful stat. It helps initiative, a LOT of skills, a save, ranged attacks, and your AC. Allowing it to also add to melee damage is probably going too far... but if the Feat or ability that lets you do this has some prerequisites and limitations (like the Dervish Dance feat does), I think that's probably okay.
My only problem with the Dervish Dance feat however is that it kind of makes the rapier and ANY other one handed piercing weapon someone might have used to be a duelist very weak in comparison. It's one thing to bring the scimitar into the fold of finesse (I think it should have been all along) but it's piercing AND slashing AND you get to add your arguably highest stat to damage instead of having to worry about Strength too.
I never liked feats that moved to try and make one weapon make others weaker. I can't see why anyone would use the rapier again when they can dump a feat and get dex damage with their scimitar.
So any feat you might consider making, OP, I would make it similar to this one in that it maybe only be used by weapon finesseable but don't limit the weapon choice too much past that. I'd also consider it only functioning WITH one weapon (if you're duel wielding, just the main hand) or maybe making the other hand have no weapon like Dervish Dance. This helps from making a Dex based fighter the ONLY desirable path.
EDIT: Heck the more I think about it just use that Dervish Dance feat and replace Scimitar with whatever current one handed weapon finesse weapon there is. Tah-dah. Done and balanced.
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(Too late to add this to my post)
Is there any chance by the by that the Developers might consider making a feat that works like Dervish Dance but let's you use a weapon other than a scimitar? House ruling is all fine and good but when it comes to using core stuff only, it would be nice to have a real feat in place for this.
(AKA Please don't take away my rapier as a duelist T_T )
I've always wondered why DEX isn't added to ranged damage, I mean the better aim you have the more painful you're shot will be, (of course against things such as oozes it's kinda of a moot as it doesn't matter where you hit them)
Furthermore, other than the Duelist, Swashbuckler or Rogue classes there's no RAW reflection of the idea that it's where you hit not how hard you hit that is important.
*cough* Ranger *cough* *cough*
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I've always wondered why DEX isn't added to ranged damage, I mean the better aim you have the more painful you're shot will be, (of course against things such as oozes it's kinda of a moot as it doesn't matter where you hit them)
Being able to hit something doesn't mean you can hit it hard. The farther you can pull back the bowstring...
I've always wondered why DEX isn't added to ranged damage, I mean the better aim you have the more painful you're shot will be, (of course against things such as oozes it's kinda of a moot as it doesn't matter where you hit them)Being able to hit something doesn't mean you can hit it hard. The farther you can pull back the bowstring...
Hitting something in the eye versus the arm will hurt a lot more regardless of the power involved. I agree that in the case of bows being able to use strength is a boon now, farther back the string goes indeed the arrow flies faster and hits harder, but placement is important to (maybe choose +STR dmg or +DEX dmg) but think about crossbows. They have a set amount of power they will be giving each time, so they would be all about placement.
Despite their appealing flavor, dexterity-based characters suffer in combat because weapon damage is keyed off strength. It seems that the only way to optimize damage output with rogues or monks (for example) is to pump strength, which might defeat the purpose/concept of playing those kinds of characters, and often comes at the expense of dexterity in point buys. So, I was wondering if there was anything in the works (e.g. alternate class feature, feats) to help with this problem, or another thread on this topic?
There are lots of examples of feats or class features that reduce MAD in 3.5: the stone warden from the deepwarden PrC (Con to AC instead of DEX), zen archery feat (wisdom to ranged attack rolls), brutal throw (strength to ranged attack rolls), etc. None of these were particularly hard to get, but getting DEX to damage was/is. To illustrate, in 3.5 there was elegant strike, which was a class feature of the Champion of Corellon Larethian PrC (Races of the Wild), which gave dexterity to damage in addition to strength, but only with a handful of weapons and with onerous entry requirements (elf/half-elf, lots of armor and weapon proficiency and at least a half dozen feats), and a similar concept was present in a home-brew swashbuckler base class for Pathfinder by SmiloDan some time ago(don't know how to link, first time poster, sorry), which became available only at 17th level. It seems like people think that this is a very potent ability. I am probably missing something, but why is this something that shouldn’t be more easily available? Of course, having BOTH strength and dex (and all of strength, intelligence and dex in the case of the swashbuckler) is pretty great and shouldn't be a low-level option, but what would be game breaking or unbalanced about simply having dexterity to damage INSTEAD of strength, even for low-level characters?
I understand that DEX also contributes to AC, initiative, ranged attack rolls and useful skills (acrobatics, stealth, disable device), whereas STR contributes to...
Actually, the problem with this feat is that the two weapon fighting chain is also dex dependant. Greater TWF requires 19 dex. That is the sacrifice that dual wielding characters make, they have to split between dex and strength. Weapon finesse offsets this some, but if you are allowed to add your dex to damage, you are no longer making any sacrifices to get TWF.
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What if you made the feat only apply to the specific weapon you have weapon focus for? That way it uses up at least 3 feats and only applies for a specific weapon.
Quick Strike
You have learned to maneuver your weapon to deal maximum damage through your movement rather than strength.Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
Benefit: Choose a melee weapon in which you have the weapon focus feat for and that the weapon finesse feat applies. You may add your Dexterity to your damage rolls with your main hand. If you are using a weapon in your off-hand you only apply half your Dexterity bonus to damage with that weapon.Special: This damage is not multiplied with a critical hit. This damage does not apply against creatures immune to critical hits.
I didn't word it correctly the first time but I meant for the Dex to replace the Str to damage, not add on to it.
(Too late to add this to my post)
Is there any chance by the by that the Developers might consider making a feat that works like Dervish Dance but let's you use a weapon other than a scimitar? House ruling is all fine and good but when it comes to using core stuff only, it would be nice to have a real feat in place for this.
(AKA Please don't take away my rapier as a duelist T_T )
+1 on this.
i.e. mechanics like dervish dance but you choose a weapon that is finessable.
I wouldn't want to exclude the two-handed exotics, though (spiked chain and elven curve blade). There is a price to pay to get access (feat/racial) to those better weapons, and it could be spelled out that 2 handed wouldn’t benefit 1 ½ more damage-wise, and power attack can’t be used in conjunction with the feat.
stuff.....
yeah, you need 5 feats to be less stat dependent, while the thug over there with his greatsword will have power attack, vital strike, step up, WF, WE, and will not have a horrible -2 to all attacks.
Ah... I almost forget, he can attack with his greatsword in a AoO or in an standar action, while the TWF guy will only use his primary weapon.
I'm not against the idea of all this- but rogues already have a mechanic to compensate for low/no strength. that is what sneak attack is for. Its what Backstab was for (the SA predecessor). If we go giving rogues dual wielding damage by Dex then thats fine.. but I would penalize them by removing their sneak attack. Completely. I would not allow a rogue to get their full dex And their sneak attack to their attacks.
-S
I'm not against the idea of all this- but rogues already have a mechanic to compensate for low/no strength. that is what sneak attack is for. Its what Backstab was for (the SA predecessor). If we go giving rogues dual wielding damage by Dex then thats fine.. but I would penalize them by removing their sneak attack. Completely. I would not allow a rogue to get their full dex And their sneak attack to their attacks.
-S
You do realize that's not even remotely close to an even trade, right? At absolute maximum, a level 20 Rogue could have (18 rolled, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement) 36 Dexterity, or 13 damage. A level 20 Rogue's sneak attack averages 35 damage, almost 3 times as much.
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The OP's proposed "Improved Weapon Finesse" is an interesting idea. I've used a similar feat for years in my homebrew games and it never felt overbalanced. And since the swashbuckler type class is a hard one to build in the rules if you want to stand toe-to-toe with the more-standard high-Strength melee fighter, I think that a feat like this is pretty cool, personally.... but if the Feat or ability that lets you do this has some prerequisites and limitations (like the Dervish Dance feat does), I think that's probably okay.
so James any chance of seeing something like this in the APG - I have been wanting something like this for ages - especially for my monk - also remember Dex is heavily affected by armour too so you cant have heavy armour & a good Dex bonus so there is that limitation & if you add a prerequisite like weapon finesse as well I think this would be a cool feat to take as an official feat
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I'm not against the idea of all this- but rogues already have a mechanic to compensate for low/no strength. that is what sneak attack is for. Its what Backstab was for (the SA predecessor). If we go giving rogues dual wielding damage by Dex then thats fine.. but I would penalize them by removing their sneak attack. Completely. I would not allow a rogue to get their full dex And their sneak attack to their attacks.
-S
So if rogues don't want to give up Str for Dex they still get Str and Sneak Attack? I wouldn't let a Str bonus stack with the Dex based damage, but a Str penalty would still lessen the damage(sliding a dagger through the ribs is Dex, but without the Str to make it go as deep...).
EDIT:Somewhat ninja'd by Zurai.
Note: I'm not a huge fan of adding dex to weapon damage, it really seemed to break my Star Wars Saga game when the jedi knight prestige class gained this ability, but this isn't nearly as bad as "Ataru" was in that game.
this talk of light sabers just rang a bell - I can just see the UMD rogue arguing to apply dex damage to flame blade (from wand) using the dervish dance feat...sigh
Like many others here I'm iffy about allowing anyone to add Dex to weapon damage just because of how good the stat is already with weapon finesse.
Instead, I would think about letting rogues add their INT to damage with a feat. At least Intelligence is a stat that rogues use while not being their primary stat, and it would make sense to let them add it to damage. A smart person knows where to stab to maximize the effect.
Let's see, neverwinter nights 2 had this feat:
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Combat Insight
Prerequisite: Character level 21, Combat Expertise, Epic Prowess, BAB 15
Specifics: When wielding a melee weapon or longbow add your Intelligence modifier, rather than your Strength modifier, to the weapon's damage rolls. While wielding a two-handed weapon, the usual 1.5* modifier bonus applies as well. Similar to Weapon Finesse, the Intelligence modifier is only applied if it is higher than your Strength modifier.
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That's an epic feat though, so maybe we can decrease the prerequisites a bit to just "Combat Expertise, BAB 1"
A possible problem is that a duelist with this feat could get nasty since he would be getting +Int to AC, damage, and skills.
Like many others here I'm iffy about allowing anyone to add Dex to weapon damage just because of how good the stat is already with weapon finesse.
That makes no sense. Do you not let people add Strength damage with weapons because Strength already adds to their chance to hit?
Like many others here I'm iffy about allowing anyone to add Dex to weapon damage just because of how good the stat is already with weapon finesse.That makes no sense. Do you not let people add Strength damage with weapons because Strength already adds to their chance to hit?
Strength adds to hit melee, damage, and carrying capacity along with a few mediocre skills (climb and swim).
Dex already adds, to hit ranged and melee (with weapon finesse), initiative, AC (including the all important touch AC), reflex saves, and important skills like acrobatics, disable device (traps anyone?) and stealth. And with the new fighter, its even more important since you can gain quite a bit of dex to AC even while wearing heavy armor as a higher level fighter (particularly if its mithral).
There is already no comparison as to which one is more important. Allowing it to go to damage, makes strength completely unimportant as soon as you can get 2 feats and a bag of holding.
1) Is this feat an auto take? Yes, but for 2 weapon Fighters, rangers, monks and maybe rogues or bards. I say maybe because Weapon Finesse will be a requirement and both of those classes are feat starved.
2) Is that a bad thing? Really, there's nothing wrong with this feat existing. Enabling a two-weapon fighter expands the game. Allowing Monks to focus on grace and not brute strength is also a good thing. Duelist as a prestige class is now more than viable.
3)How should it be worded? Here's my take on it.
Weapon Celerity (combat)
Requirements: Light Armor Proficiency, Weapon Finesse, Base Attack +3
You are trained in using your agility to make deadly blows, as opposed to using brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. Attacks made with an off hand attack using any of the listed weapons may use half your Dexterity modifier, rounded down, instead of your Strength modifier. When using any of the listed weapons in one hand while nothing occupies the other hand and wearing light or no armor, you may use 1 and a half times your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. You may not use this feat if you carry a shield other than a Buckler.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Notes
The requirements put this feat at 5th level for rogues and bards. It also puts the feat outside of arcane caster range. Rangers and two-weapon Fighters can take this at 3rd. All that looks about right.
Why the bonus damage when wielding it one handed with the other hand empty? Simple. It mirrors two-weapon fighting, but takes two feats to get there. It just feels elegant.
I'm going to be making this feat available in my game and I'll let people know how it pans out (along with a bunch of other feats, like the return of Overhand Chop).
Nerfing Questions before they're asked
Isn't Dex the best stat now? Not even nearly. Do not under estimate the power of having to spend two feats to do this. Look at Armor HERE. As you can see a high Dex character has a max AC bonus of 8 from both armor and Dex together unless they do some Mithral shenanigans. This makes Full Plate (max AC +10 from both Dex and armor) much better since you can make it Adamantine.
Won't characters with this feat just dump everything into Dex, making it HUGE?! Mathlete's rally! Using point buy it cost a player 5 points to have a 14 in one stat. Most two weapon fighters will start out with about 14 in both Strength and Dex. Now they can put 10 points in Dex instead! For a whopping 16 (note: sarcasm). They can just focus on items that jack one stat instead of two, which will save them some cash in the long term, but again, do not under estimate the cost of two feats to do this. It also doesn't help yo CMD. That's a big one people have been missing.
Won't this make two-handed fighters obsolete? You're kidding, right? Until they make a class that gives themselves +4 to Dex and "Ferocity" powers for a number of rounds each day we don't have to worry about two-handers getting obsoleted. A Fighter can still be a brute with a Great Sword and still have two more feats to spend on killing you.
If it looks right, sounds right and feels right then it must be right. This only enhances the game.
It also opens the floodgates for other feats that situationally replace stats. Of course within reason. I am against using Intelligence in place of Constitution for Hit Points. That's just too weird.
Like many others here I'm iffy about allowing anyone to add Dex to weapon damage just because of how good the stat is already with weapon finesse.That makes no sense. Do you not let people add Strength damage with weapons because Strength already adds to their chance to hit?Strength adds to hit melee, damage, and carrying capacity along with a few mediocre skills (climb and swim).
Dex already adds, to hit ranged and melee (with weapon finesse), initiative, AC (including the all important touch AC), reflex saves, and important skills like acrobatics, disable device (traps anyone?) and stealth. And with the new fighter, its even more important since you can gain quite a bit of dex to AC even while wearing heavy armor as a higher level fighter (particularly if its mithral).
There is already no comparison as to which one is more important. Allowing it to go to damage, makes strength completely unimportant as soon as you can get 2 feats and a bag of holding.
That wasn't the comparison, though. Matrix-dragon said he wouldn't allow it because Dex is good with Weapon Finesse. Not "because Dex already gives so much good stuff" (although really, almost nobody can make good use of all of the stuff Dex provides, so it's not as good as most people make it out to be). His specific reason was that it already added to hit, so it shouldn't add to damage. As I said, that makes no sense, because Strength already defaults to both hit and damage.
Sure, if a rogue currently wants to pump str he can do so, but he does so at the expense of other attributes. Unless you have an extremely generous point buy he's going to have to give up something handy in order to pump up his strength.
But sure, if a rogue wants to start slaacking from his will saves or dex score or his int or cha or con- sure, let him start pumping up strength. I wouldn't stop him. I wouldn't advise it, but I wouldn't stop a PC from doing it.
In the end, there is a reason why we have weapon finesse. Its because Rogues primarily are designed around high dex and low strength. They have that feat to select and SA to make up for it on the strength end.
What they get in exchange for it, is a stat they can put at 10 and never, ever have to worry about again. Most classes don't get such a luxury.
Giving them Dexterity to their damage though (while dual wielding) would allow them to continue to use Str as their crap stat while feeling free to pump Dex up without restriction. Most rogues do that anyway- but they don't double dip the damage. (from attribute +SA).
Is it a pure damage for damage trade, if you made them take the feat at the expense of SA? No. But the overall gain is worth it.
"would any sane rogue not take this feat"
Answer: No.
Result: Its too powerful.
it just puts too much importance on them for that one stat.
Of course, its just my opinion.. we're talking about houserules and such anyway :)
-S
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this talk of light sabers just rang a bell - I can just see the UMD rogue arguing to apply dex damage to flame blade (from wand) using the dervish dance feat...sigh
Note: I'm not a huge fan of adding dex to weapon damage, it really seemed to break my Star Wars Saga game when the jedi knight prestige class gained this ability, but this isn't nearly as bad as "Ataru" was in that game.
It was total munchkin bait in Saga edition. It was just way too good to pass up, you almost had to take it. Only a few character concepts could manage to avoid it, but they left little room for Force Use. Ataru gave the best of damage, attacks, defense, and let you have a few points left from your initial point buy for wisdom and charisma!
That's the main reason I'm leary of this. It becomes a *must take* feat.
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Sure, if a rogue currently wants to pump str he can do so, but he does so at the expense of other attributes. Unless you have an extremely generous point buy he's going to have to give up something handy in order to pump up his strength.
But sure, if a rogue wants to start slaacking from his will saves or dex score or his int or cha or con- sure, let him start pumping up strength. I wouldn't stop him. I wouldn't advise it, but I wouldn't stop a PC from doing it.
In the end, there is a reason why we have weapon finesse. Its because Rogues primarily are designed around high dex and low strength. They have that feat to select and SA to make up for it on the strength end.
What they get in exchange for it, is a stat they can put at 10 and never, ever have to worry about again. Most classes don't get such a luxury.Giving them Dexterity to their damage though (while dual wielding) would allow them to continue to use Str as their crap stat while feeling free to pump Dex up without restriction. Most rogues do that anyway- but they don't double dip the damage. (from attribute +SA).
Is it a pure damage for damage trade, if you made them take the feat at the expense of SA? No. But the overall gain is worth it.
"would any sane rogue not take this feat"
Answer: No.
Result: Its too powerful.it just puts too much importance on them for that one stat.
Of course, its just my opinion.. we're talking about houserules and such anyway :)
-S
And what about if the feat is built around like Dervish Dance where your offhand must be empty to gain the dex damage? Does that balance it back out a bit more?
That wasn't the comparison, though. Matrix-dragon said he wouldn't allow it because Dex is good with Weapon Finesse. Not "because Dex already gives so much good stuff" (although really, almost nobody can make good use of all of the stuff Dex provides, so it's not as good as most people make it out to be). His specific reason was that it already added to hit, so it shouldn't add to damage. As I said, that makes no sense, because Strength already defaults to both hit and damage.
No, saying "because Dex is good with Weapon Finesse" includes everything that you get from Dex itself PLUS Weapon Finesse. I don't like the idea of a single stat giving defense, init, hit, damage, and reflex save. I didn't say anything about "It already added to hit, so it shouldn't add to damage". If it was just hit and damage (like strength) it wouldn't be overpowered. You're just jumping to conclsions and putting words in my mouth, lol.
So, I guess no one likes the Int to damage solution? Lol. Personally, I think it is a bit more balanced since I believe that no class should be able to get almost everything they want from a single stat. There should be some reason for a rogue to try maxing out some other stat. Honestly, with weapon finesse rogues already get more benefit from dex than any other class can with a single stat (unless I'm mistaken), to me adding damage as well seems crazy.
The main problem I have with this idea isn't actually the idea itself, but the reason you guys are stating that dex could add to damage (placement of hits and such). With the whole abstract hit points and everything, it doesn't seem that it really should matter WHERE you hit. Personally I'd explain it more as Str adds damage because of the amount of unstoppable force (actually mass) coming from the arm of the striker. Dex could add to damage because of the speed that a high dex character is able to move at. The whole "mass x speed = force" equation.
I think it would be fine to have dex add to damage at the cost of a feat, as long as it applied to finesseable weapons only (can't really swing that two-handed sword with the same speed you can that dagger).
Now if you WERE to go the more precision route of explaining dex adding to damage, then I would definitely only allow it for the character's primary weapon, maybe with a feat that could allow you to use it for your secondary weapon as well (yeah, I know TWFighters already have a huge feat tax, but honestly, I could see someone worrying about precision of their hits taking a little more time to react because they're waiting for the right openings, and thus not being able to get the last TWF feat and not get their third attack with their off-hand weapon). I just don't think that someone could really focus on that level of precision with both hands at essentially the same time, at least not without slowing down and thinking about it.
As for pre-reqs, Weapon Finesse most definitely, and a +1 BAB. I don't think it really needs any more, as it's already limited in weapon selection, and weapons that don't do that much damage at that.
Hitting something in the eye versus the arm will hurt a lot more regardless of the power involved. I agree that in the case of bows being able to use strength is a boon now, farther back the string goes indeed the arrow flies faster and hits harder, but placement is important to (maybe choose +STR dmg or +DEX dmg) but think about crossbows. They have a set amount of power they will be giving each time, so they would be all about placement.I've always wondered why DEX isn't added to ranged damage, I mean the better aim you have the more painful you're shot will be, (of course against things such as oozes it's kinda of a moot as it doesn't matter where you hit them)Being able to hit something doesn't mean you can hit it hard. The farther you can pull back the bowstring...
Which is accounted for by the x3 crit modifier on bows and the 19-20 crit threat range on crossbows.
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I do like the swashbuckler concept and I do feel it should work better in combat.
How about this feat:
Sharp blow
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make one attack that add your Dexterity modifier to your damage rolls instead of your strenght modifier. This feat only works when you use a weapon that the weapon finesse feat applies.
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Adding dex to damage would not be universally applicable. Lets say you are fighting a Gelatinous Cube, there is no "precise" place to strike them, they are a blob. If it were added, it would have to be a feat adding dex bonus to damage and have the subtext of saying the extra damage is precision based. It is essentially Dervish Dance as folks have said.
Adding dex to damage would not be universally applicable. Lets say you are fighting a Gelatinous Cube, there is no "precise" place to strike them, they are a blob. If it were added, it would have to be a feat adding dex bonus to damage and have the subtext of saying the extra damage is precision based. It is essentially Dervish Dance as folks have said.
I refer you to my post a little up thread:
The main problem I have with this idea isn't actually the idea itself, but the reason you guys are stating that dex could add to damage (placement of hits and such). With the whole abstract hit points and everything, it doesn't seem that it really should matter WHERE you hit. Personally I'd explain it more as Str adds damage because of the amount of unstoppable force (actually mass) coming from the arm of the striker. Dex could add to damage because of the speed that a high dex character is able to move at. The whole "mass x speed = force" equation.
Erm, for starters this houserule really isn't FOR Rogues, who gain a proportionately reduced benefit from it.
Sure a rogue would like it, if he can afford the feat, but it's a comparably small damage boost when sneak attack counts against so many targets and is generally applicable 95% of the time.
This houserule REALLY is for the poor dex based fighter concepts, which have struggled since 3.0 (and possibly before that, I'm unfamiliar with prior editions of D&D)
Unlike Rogues, Fighters depend on their strength score for damage, literally screwing the dextrous fighter,...
Ahh, I see. That's what I get for skipping around. Mind if I ask how rogues get a reduced benefit from it though? The feat that I see suggested up there seems like it would work with any weapon that uses weapon finesse.
Still, I don't like the idea even for fighters. With armor training you'd be letting fighters add their dex to attack, damage, ac, and init. Combine that with magic mithril armor and they could easily get a very high AC while doing good damage and two weapon fighting. Why use a shield when you could just go with these dex feats and two weapon fighting?
I admit that there is a problem with dex based fighters, but there must be a better way to fix it than putting everything they would ever want for combat except for hit points into a single stat.
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Adding dex to damage would not be universally applicable. Lets say you are fighting a Gelatinous Cube, there is no "precise" place to strike them, they are a blob. If it were added, it would have to be a feat adding dex bonus to damage and have the subtext of saying the extra damage is precision based. It is essentially Dervish Dance as folks have said.
Dervish Dance allows you to make a full attack at the cost of not using use anything on your off-hand. Sharp blow has a worst limitation, you are stuck to one attack per round (and you can only choose this feat when you have BAB +6 and start making two attacks per round), that is why I didnt made it a precision based attack, so it would have a little advantage over Dervish Dance.
A sharp blow could be a fast wave of attacks that cut a Gelatinous Cube in half.
Weapon Celerity (combat)
Requirements: Light Armor Proficiency, Weapon Finesse, Base Attack +3
You are trained in using your agility to make deadly blows, as opposed to using brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. Attacks made with an off hand attack using any of the listed weapons may use half your Dexterity modifier, rounded down, instead of your Strength modifier. When using any of the listed weapons in one hand while nothing occupies the other hand and wearing light or no armor, you may use 1 and a half times your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee damage rolls. You may not use this feat if you carry a shield other than a Buckler.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Notes
The requirements put this feat at 5th level for rogues and bards. It also puts the feat outside of arcane caster range. Rangers and two-weapon Fighters can take this at 3rd. All that looks about right.
Can’t wait to hear how this works in your game!
The light armor proficiency puts the hurt on monks too. Is it just to prevent arcane casters from taking it? If so, why? Sorcerer claws overpowered or something?
The 1 ½ dex idea is interesting, but is seems much better than TWF (except for SA damage) because the primary only will hit more consistently than both primary and off-hand and also it frees the PC from having to enchant 2 weapons. Then again, they wouldn’t get the base weapon damage from the off-hand… anyone want to crunch the numbers? Also oddly nerfs the 2handed weapons (spiked chain and curve blade) as worded.
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Adding dex to damage would not be universally applicable. Lets say you are fighting a Gelatinous Cube, there is no "precise" place to strike them, they are a blob. If it were added, it would have to be a feat adding dex bonus to damage and have the subtext of saying the extra damage is precision based. It is essentially Dervish Dance as folks have said.I refer you to my post a little up thread:
The main problem I have with this idea isn't actually the idea itself, but the reason you guys are stating that dex could add to damage (placement of hits and such). With the whole abstract hit points and everything, it doesn't seem that it really should matter WHERE you hit. Personally I'd explain it more as Str adds damage because of the amount of unstoppable force (actually mass) coming from the arm of the striker. Dex could add to damage because of the speed that a high dex character is able to move at. The whole "mass x speed = force" equation.
Logically, it could be argued that increasing the force of the blow goes both ways. force on target and force on the wielder. The very weak but fast wielder would not be able to keep the weapon at the impact angle to maintain the force for any amount of time, therefor releasing all the energy of the force before it could do any damage. Their weapon arm will give before the targets armor does.