I'm having a problem where I have too many PCs. I feel 4-5 is ideal, with an upper limit of 6. I am currently running the AP, Council of Thieves. This is the first time my group of friends has role played in a while so when we started I had 5 PCs.
Now others have show up out of the woodwork with either someone who doesn't show up a lot, or bringing along a sibling and now I have about 9 people interested in playing. Its just too much. There is only so much soup to go around so to speak, and with 9 PCs I can give any of them the time / attention they deserve and I feel like the quality of campaign I can physically run is less with so many people.
I try to increase the mob count to keep the CR appropriate but everything just drags... The idea of splitting into two separate play groups has come up but people aren't there consistently enough for it to be a long term solution.
Has anyone had similar problems? What can I do? I'm really stressing so any advice would be welcome. Thank you much
I like Y8MH's tactic, but if your crew is less inured to grisly death, consider asking your most experienced player to step up and GM half the group. Then split it into two games.
It is important for players to realize that the GM should have fun too, and managing a circus of 9 people is never easy. Good luck!
if you have 9 PC's, you have 10 people at the table.
The easiest solution is to break into 2 groups of 5 folk each. (1 dm +4 players).
Just tell the folks that 9 is simply too many. It may sound harsh but you really aren't under any obligation to let just anyone who wants to wander up to the table and play. If its too many for you just have them break off, or alternatively (if you are willing) split them into 2 groups and have 2 gaming nights. Game A and game B, or whatever.
The CR system works fairly well as written but it really starts to break down when you double the base number of PC's.
-S
I would put a cap on the game, and let them in on a first come, first serve basis. If someone brings another person to your game without asking first then that person should be the one to informed the "tag along", for lack of a better word, they wont be able to play.
yea cant be helped really, additionally I have a really hard time preparing for encounters when I have no clue, who or how many players will show up, It is not always as easy as simple doubling (or halving)
the number of opponents.
I am good with 4 to 6 players anything more is a bit of a pain for me to be honest.
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Has anyone had similar problems? What can I do? I'm really stressing so any advice would be welcome. Thank you much
In college our DM had a similar problem. His solution was to split the group into two factions, with different goals. There was a race to recover certain items and either support or oppose the BBG (both groups opposed him for their own reasons and opposed each other). They did not meet again till the confrontation in the city square and it was an all out melee between the BBG, his minions and the two PC groups. Great fun.
A similar solution for a Twilight 2000 game had two groups (one Soviet Bloc, the other American) in competition. This Dm also ran us separately most of the time but had several sessions where we crossed paths. The finale was an all out no holds barred vehicular chase (think road warriors/Mel Gibson type stuff)that ended with a melee between the survivors.
So, my suggestion is split them up(different nights). Drop hints from NPC's and such as to what the other group is doing(this works best if they agree to not talk between sessions). Have one group walk into the tavern right after the other group just left with the treasure map or a prisoner in tow. Let the other group find grafitti in the trashed evil temple showing who got there sooner and recovered the magic gem of ululu (and who's mother is an orc...), then let them meet up when you are tired of the campaign and kill each other off!
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I cuurently have the same problem, but due to real life issues, not all of them can make it at any one session.
Solutions :
1 ) Beef UP the opposition ! A Lot !
2 ) More monsters, not more powerful, but MORE
3 ) BBEGs have more Hps than the rules would allow
4 ) No more Xps Calculations : just tell them when they have a new level.
5 ) Table discipline
Well, so far it works for me, but I feel your pain
What I do in my game is put make sure that everyone knows up front that it is invite only, and I'm the only one with the ability to invite. People can (and have) tell me if someone they know is interested, and after I meet them (or if I already know them) then I'll consider it.
People are expected to show up consistantly and on time. Real life does trump gaming, and I'm more interested in having a good time than enforcing rules...so there is quite a bit of flex in this. People who can't make it for understandable reasons have had their characters go off and do other things (transport prisoners to local institutes of justice primarily) with the ability to return.
Most importantly is the fact that I try very hard not to abuse the "power". There are only two people I can think of in our local stable of gamers that I know without a doubt I wouldn't allow in. Luckily one is generally disliked universally, and is only ever present at the most public of get togethers (namely the occassional warhammer game up at the library that by the libraries rules must be open to the public). The other it is well known by anyone who is friends with him that I don't want him at my games...and so far no one has even joked about him joining.
Being the DM means making, interpiting, and enforcing the rules. The entire point is to have fun, but there are times when a foot needs to be put down and hard decisions need to be made. That foot is yours lad. Make your decision, be upfront about your reasons, and continue gaming.
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Assuming you can't break the groups into two groups (even if you DM both groups), and assuming you aren't really able to cut a handful of people out for social/ friendship reasons, here's a few tips:
1) No more initiative!
The person sitting to the left of the DM goes first and you go around the table. Make sure everyone knows what they're gonna do before it's their turn.
2) No cohorts, animal companions, familiars, summon-monster PCs, NPCs that help the PCs in combat. Few exceptions if any ever allowed.
3) Your NPCs should be smaller in number, tougher in CR. In other words, instead of making 1 Barbed Devil into 3 Barbed Devils, make the 1 Barbed Devil much stronger: max HP, +2 all roles, 3-4 class levels. Never start fights that you have lots of NPCs.
4) Disencourage PCs that "bump" other PCs. If a PC has to play a bumper, won't play anything else, have that PC make signs for what stat-changes are active that he can put on the table on his turn that everyone can see: take a sheet of white construction paper, fold it in half (so it can stand up like an A-frame) and put +2 Attack or whatever on it.
5) Make sure PCs know their character sheets and can run their characters smoothly. For newbies (and Players who aren't so much into rules), have another Player help that person decide what to do -- make sure the helper sits far away from the helpee so it's not a problem in initiative.
6) Keep jokes and tangent, out-of-game conversations to a bare minimum. Start each session strongly (setting the tone).
7) As DM you can NOT be the only one to arbitrate rules and especially look up spells and such. An experienced Player has to help you out!
8) (Optional, recommended) Let PCs roll their attacks before their turn in initiative. That way when it's their turn they can just say Does an 18 hit? If so I do 12 points of damage. Part of this will be honor system but you will need to have Players police themselves.
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Honestly, if you do these things and get used to it, running a large group is not cumbersome at all. It's certainly a different kind of game -- the biggest difference being that PC background stories & Fluff doesn't get much air time, but it works.
Also, a few other things to keep in mind:
-- When puzzles and critical thinking situations arise, Players are much more likely to figure things out (there's more people discussing the situation).
-- When Players have a "difference of opinion" about something in-game it is a bigger problem and must be handled quickly and professionally.
-- When Players are discussing what to do (kick in the door and charge in or kick in the door and charge in) the "discussion" can take eons. keep an eye out for the one or two Players who really don't enjoy that aspect of gaming (especially since, no matter how much is discussed the PCs end up always kicking the door and charging in).
-- When designing encounters be tough. If one or two PCs dies in a fight it won't derail the game. (With only 4 PCs, when one dies it can easily derail the game).
-- Your role as DM is much more like an actor or teacher on stage -- NOT like a storyteller around a small campfire!
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I'd make the players organise their own groups. Make your availabilities known and then players can organise around your schedule. That said, it can be difficult to run a narratively consistent adventure path. I see the second adventure in CoT being problematic for a large group. You could either change the adventures as written, or start a new paradigm. Spoilers ahead for council of thieves.
WE Ray makes some very good suggestions and in my experience that mindset works well when running large groups.
As a single DM running a large group you definitely have to approach the game differently and add some parameters. To emphasize and add some personal suggestions:
- no leadership feat, summoning monsters, and basically anything that adds MORE members to the PC party.
- encourage the players to play PCs that are "simple" to play. By that, I mean keeping them single-class (with maybe a prestige class). Discourage multi-classing beyond 2 classes. Reserve the right to limit spells and feats that you know have been a problem in the past to adjudicate.
- don't play past level 10. Warriors get a third attack, casters get 6th level spells, magic items get more complex, etc.
- set a limit on players turns, 30 seconds or so. Any longer than that, the player must take the total defense action.
- give your primary monsters (important NPCs, BBEGs, etc) max HPs. A party that big can handle it.
- don't be afraid to "add" monsters to certain encounters. If the PCs are fighting in a dungeon for instance, and if you feel the encounter with 5 goblins was too easy, 5 more come through the door.
- having lots of adversaries for the PCs to fight is not that hard for the DM to run as long as the adversaries for the most part are the same (like running 50 orcs for instance).
- it's easier to be an impartial DM with parties this big. Take advantage of it. Don't be afraid to let PCs die if the dice say so. Even if a player spends most of a session making a new character, there are lots of other people to talk to while doing so, and they'll have time for conversation when it's not their turn.
Just my 2 cps.
Edit: Oh, and LESS treasure. This limits the PC's power, and keeps with the theme of making them "simpler" to play. You can always give more later on, but it's harder to take it away.
Large parties are dynamic enough by virtue of the number of PCs in the group.
good ideas
Hey! Wanted to say that I thought you had some great suggestions.
Pass as much of the drudgery of running to the players. Sammy handles initiative, ALL night. Sally draws maps, ALL maps. Saul lays out the monsters and helps Salazar run them in the fights. His GF is inexperienced? She has the notebook recording what happened.
The ultimate problem is the wear and tear on the GM from having to run a horde of folks. My problem is that I can't say 'NO!' when some newbie shows up. I've seen way too many turn into awesome players. My current, over-sized group includes three who played their first game as a torch-bearer or something similar. My table discipline 'enforcer' is a mother of 3 whose husband brought to her first game while they were engaged. She treats my players like the ill-behaved preschoolers they are at heart. I could not run all 9 at the same time without her.
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ooooo. I do not envy you. I've been there as a GM and a player
I quit a gaming group primarily because of the 'sometimes' players. Take notice of your players who always show up. If they do not like these 'sometimes' players always showing up, keep it in mind. 'Always' players are the ones who WANT to be there. They deserve to have the most fun.
Now I understand that certain 'sometimes' players have schedule conflicts. It sucks. But it's not your fault and it most definitely shouldn't become your problem because that causes stress on your part.
Cull the 'sometimes' players out. Tell them its nothing personal, but you won't work around there schedules. You are doing the work after all. They are just showing up. As for the newbies that show up because another player thinks they will be interested, tell them upfront that while you are glad they showed up, if they do end up loving it that you want them to be a consistent player. Be nice about it. If they aren't sure, tell them to play and see if its worth working their schedules around. If it's not worth it to them, tell them you're glad they showed up and that for the remainder of your current campaign you'd like it if they didn't play [the current campaign].
****IMPORTANT****
If you have 'sometimes' players who are ok with not playing but still like to show up and hang out with their friends, this is totally ok and encouraged. If they are interested, they can even help you run (which makes them feel good because they have the GM's point of view!)
It may seem harsh. I know. But you're doing alot of work so everyone can have a good time. You deserve the respect and consistency of 'always' players.
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(Delegate) to the players.
This works, too, though many Players don't like to be "assigned" DM-like duty. If you've got a case where Joe doesn't want to draw the maps then Joe doesn't have to draw the maps. And, of course, there's always times where Bob can never get the initiative right.
Still, delegating some things, as I listed earlier, is essential.
A lot of good suggestions here, so I'll run a brief list of what helps me...I have anywhere from 8 - 12 in a Saturday RotRL campaign.
1. Get a combat pad from Game Mastery. Initiative lifesaver.
2. Get a game mat, markers, and figures. Use "regular" figs for PCs and some type of piece for mobs. Dice, poker chips, wood tiles, whatever. Easier to envision what to do in combat, which brings me to...
3. 30 seconds to act, they MUST know when their turn is coming. Looking up a spell effect or feat is verboten. No take total defense here...you do nothing if you aren't ready!
4. Buffs/debuffs are written on the mat for everyone to see. If you missed it, you lost it!
These are simple, brass-tacks helpers for you to keep your sanity.