Caineach, you're flailing to try and find any explanation, no matter how implausible, for the merest fraction of the immense and obvious absurdities in the pricing. Give it up; they're numbers Gygax just pulled out his ass years ago because they don't matter. They have only tangential association with reality or history.
I've always found it amusing that iron pots cost less than their weight in iron in v3.5. Why mine iron when you can buy iron pots, melt them down into ingots, and then sell them for more than you bought them for.
Note that this does not appear to be true in pathfinder. An iron pot now costs 8sp and is only made out of 4sp worth of iron (rather than 5sp and 10sp, respectively).
The one that always amused me was the price differential between the 10' pole 5 cp and the 10' ladder 2 cp. The smart merchant purchase the ladder, disassembles it and gets 10' poles that he can sell for 10 cp. He's scoring 400% profit on his expenditures.
*psst* That's 2 SP for the 10' ladder, not CP.
You are right! Pathfinder corrected the 3.5 ladder pole exploit! Thank you Paizo!
:D
Caineach, you're flailing to try and find any explanation, no matter how implausible, for the merest fraction of the immense and obvious absurdities in the pricing. Give it up; they're numbers Gygax just pulled out his ass years ago because they don't matter. They have only tangential association with reality or history.
And my point is they are not just numbers they made up. They are realistic. Families would save up to buy metal. Most shovels were made out of wood, and may have had a metal edge. A blade needed a skilled craftsman to work on for multiple days. You had to pay for his time. Those poor farmers and there $3000 equivalent tool. You drive a car don't you. You somehow manage to pay for it, even though it costs many months of salary. A new sickle isn't something medieval familes would go out and buy regularly. Not every generation would even go out and buy one. They would be using the same tools as their great grand parrents for the most part, and get them repaired when they failed. Tools would be included in dowries because they had value.
The issue with trying to claim realism in D&D is that it fluxuates all over the damn place.
That awesome full plate mail fighters want isn't from the dark ages or the medieval ages - that's renaissance technology. But the sling is more of a slingshot then anything else, and the crossbows are clearly medieval technology at best.
D&D doesn't make historical sense, and it never has. It's not a medieval England simulator, it's a D&D simulator. There's a difference between verisimilitude and realism, and you're confusing the two. The game makes internal sense, and that's fine. It's not supposed to be held up as a shining beacon of "reality."
D&D doesn't make historical sense, and it never has. It's not a medieval England simulator, it's a D&D simulator. There's a difference between verisimilitude and realism, and you're confusing the two. The game makes internal sense, and that's fine. It's not supposed to be held up as a shining beacon of "reality."
I agree it doesn't need to make historical sense, and I agree it does need to make internal sense. Where we disagree is whether it does or not. :)
I think a lot of the prices are kind of whacked out. Most are ok, but a some are just 'Duh what?'. And the crafting rules, because they are based on value instead of inherent work, just don't have internal consistency. The easiest to demonstrate of course is a gold ring with a diamond in it vs a copper ring with a piece of quartz. Identical size, shape and style. If the copper ring is worth 10 gp, and the gold ring is worth 1000gp (because I used a flawless 2 carat black diamond in the gold ring, and a flawless 2 carat piece of rose quartz in the copper ring). Now, crafting a gold ring is easier than crafting a copper one (gold is softer, more maleable, easier to shape and form). The gems are pre-cut by masters because I bought them. Assuming I am making MW versions of both, have a total skill roll of 15 (with tools).
Taking 10 : MW DC 20, 20*25 = 500sp per day (50gp per day).
It takes me one day to make the copper ring.
It takes me 20 days to make the gold ring.
All I'm doing is making a ring and assembling a gem on it. The same job, the gold is even the easier one to work with, yet there's a 19 day difference because the gem is valuable.
Again, it is not internally consistent with itself. Making the copper-quartz ring and the gold-diamond ring should take the same amount of time, give or take an hour or two, not 19 days difference. Any system where the market price dictates crafting time is not, can not, and never will be internally consistent.
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What about the 18gp scythe? Think of the poor grain farmers!
Same with the 6gp Sickle.
The sickle and scythe presented in the weapons section are strengthened for combat, a farmers version would be considered improvised and you would take the according penalties for its use. There isn't an entry for the implements a farmer would use anywhere in the equipment section, sadly.
I am bothered now though, that I go to the PRD and I cannot find a listed entry for either a sickle or a scythe in the weapon descriptions. I noticed Sickle was ommited a while ago, but scythe as well. I wonder what all has been ommited.
EDIT: Seems to be that certain text pertaining to trip attacks from the 3.5 SRD was left out when being transfered over to PFRPG. It was the only text for those two items in the SRD.
To make things more " realistic" why don't people just remove the material cost from the crafting cost. Yes, we'd have to make up cost for many materials and it still wouldn't be perfect, but it would make the rings take a similar amount of time to create.
The craft check represents the time it takes to make an item out of available materials. Let's try to come up with reasonable material cost and go from there.
Hey, since that would peg the time to craft to the DC, I would be all for it.To make things more " realistic" why don't people just remove the material cost from the crafting cost. Yes, we'd have to make up cost for many materials and it still wouldn't be perfect, but it would make the rings take a similar amount of time to create.
The craft check represents the time it takes to make an item out of available materials. Let's try to come up with reasonable material cost and go from there.
Agreed, that would work also, but then you'd need tables to keep track of all that. One reason I'd suggested above pegging time to weight of the object by craft skill. It's not perfect, but it's a closer approximation than using value of the item.
To make things more " realistic" why don't people just remove the material cost from the crafting cost. Yes, we'd have to make up cost for many materials and it still wouldn't be perfect, but it would make the rings take a similar amount of time to create.
The craft check represents the time it takes to make an item out of available materials. Let's try to come up with reasonable material cost and go from there.
That might work to a degree
Price of an object is the following
[Final Cost] - [Cost of Goods and Service] = [Gross Profits]
[Cost of Goods and Services] = [Material Costs] + [Labor Costs]
[Gross Profit] - [Overhead] = Net Profit
Using the rules we know one variable already, Material Costs = 30%.
I think the closest parallel to pre-industrial crafting in today's society would be the restaurant business (high material costs, high labor costs, high overhead). Fortunately I actually know the basic rule of thumb for restaurants.
[Material Costs - Food & Drink - 30%] + [Labor - Cooks & Waitstaff - 30%] + [Overhead - Rent, etc - 30%] + Profits [10%] = Final costs
So for a smith making a long sword (15 GP) his costs are as follows:
Raw Materials- Iron, Charcoal, etc - 4.5 GP
Labor- Assistants, his own wages - 4.5 GP
Overhead- His forge, his shop, taxes - 4.5 GP
Profit- 1.5 GP
Time to craft should be a reflection of the labor value (45 SP) not the final sale value. As such an Expert 1 with 1 Rank of Craft: Weapons, Skill Focus: Craft and a 12 Int would able to generate 270 SP worth of labor in a week. This would translate to 6 workable long sword or one sword a day. If he was fully employed making swords his smithy would be generating 9 GP worth of profit a week. At least for the weaponsmith war is good business.
As an aside to this does anyone have any idea why an empty flask weighs 1.5 lbs and a one pint flask full of oil or acid weighs only 1lb?
To make things more " realistic" why don't people just remove the material cost from the crafting cost. Yes, we'd have to make up cost for many materials and it still wouldn't be perfect, but it would make the rings take a similar amount of time to create.
The craft check represents the time it takes to make an item out of available materials. Let's try to come up with reasonable material cost and go from there.
That might work to a degree
Price of an object is the following
[Final Cost] - [Cost of Goods and Service] = [Gross Profits]
[Cost of Goods and Services] = [Material Costs] + [Labor Costs]
[Gross Profit] - [Overhead] = Net Profit
<lots of numbers>
Time to craft should be a reflection of the labor value (45 SP) not the final sale value. As such an Expert 1 with 1 Rank of Craft: Weapons, Skill Focus: Craft and a 12 Int would able to generate 270 SP worth of labor in a week. This would translate to 6 workable long sword or one sword a day. If he was fully employed making swords his smithy would be generating 9 GP worth of profit a week. At least for the weaponsmith war is good business.
Yep, but again, this would require a large set of tables to keep track of materials and labor costs. Remember, the final cost of the goods can vary wildly (see my example above about a gold ring with 2 carat diamond vs copper ring with quartz). So you can't just take a percentage. It would be better if we completely divorced time from market price, and instead associated it with type of work.
As an aside to this does anyone have any idea why an empty flask weighs 1.5 lbs and a one pint flask full of oil or acid weighs only 1lb?
An empty flask is just an empty flask. But when you fill it up, it becomes intradimensionally entangled with the plane of water and thus part of the weight is in another dimension. ;)
Yep, but again, this would require a large set of tables to keep track of materials and labor costs. Remember, the final cost of the goods can vary wildly (see my example above about a gold ring with 2 carat diamond vs copper ring with quartz). So you can't just take a percentage. It would be better if we completely divorced time from market price, and instead associated it with type of work.DC to create/5 = # of weeks it takes to complete the item. For every 5 over the DC the roll is, it takes 1 week less. If this reduces the time it takes below 1 week, the item instead takes 1 day to create.
Simple, no? Nothing related to cost, which is still 30%. Just DC to create, for which there are already tables for.
Except that the DC to make a Masterwork Full Plate would be 20. The DC to make a Masterwork Copper Ring would be 20.
Time for each? 4 weeks.
The Copper ring should not take 4 weeks to make. And there's no way a MW full plate set of armor should take 4 weeks either.
Why would anyone ever make a masterwork ring? What's the point?
Aren't masterwork items harder to break (yes a totally marginal benefit). Beyond that you could always suggest that the forge ring feat needs a masterwork ring before enchantment.
After all you don't want Celembrimbor using a ring from a cracker jack box when he forges Nenya ;)
Why would anyone ever make a masterwork ring? What's the point?Aren't masterwork items harder to break (yes a totally marginal benefit). Beyond that you could always suggest that the forge ring feat needs a masterwork ring before enchantment.
After all you don't want Celembrimbor using a ring from a cracker jack box when he forges Nenya ;)
And it's pretty.
I find it unpossible to believe that, in a game where people pretend to be elves fighting dragons with magic, some of the rules for everyday tasks might be unrealistic.
D&D, (and by extension Pathfinder) through all its various editions, has never been intended for use as realistic economy or manufacturing simulation.
I'm glad my group doesn't sit around and worry about this kid of stuff.
-Skeld
I worry about this stuff because the unusability of the system makes the game unfun for anyone who actually wants to craft mundane goods (that'd be me, quite often). Realism is less than a secondary situation, no matter how many folks laughably drag it up as a defense of the system.
You think this is bad... just lurk at the Professions forum on the World of Warcraft boards. Hint: even the need for such a board should speak volumes.I find it unpossible to believe that, in a game where people pretend to be elves fighting dragons with magic, some of the rules for everyday tasks might be unrealistic.
D&D, (and by extension Pathfinder) through all its various editions, has never been intended for use as realistic economy or manufacturing simulation.
I'm glad my group doesn't sit around and worry about this kid of stuff.
-Skeld
The lack of a decent economy can crash games. I had a GM try to run a game where he gave us a keep, and some of us players wanted to do the paperwork for things like; how much grain can we produce, how many farmers do we need, how many goods can a single blacksmith produce, and many other various problems. A couple days attempting the math, and the concept fell through because there were just too many broken things, like hiring a mage to cast fabricate even though we were lvl 5 characters, or getting a harp that the bard could play to do construction. Suddenly a fun aspect of the game, designing and building our own keep, became a joke. I would love to play in a game like that again, but not unil some things are fixed. D&D might not be that system for that though.
I worry about this stuff because the unusability of the system makes the game unfun for anyone who actually wants to craft mundane goods (that'd be me, quite often). Realism is less than a secondary situation, no matter how many folks laughably drag it up as a defense of the system.I find it unpossible to believe that, in a game where people pretend to be elves fighting dragons with magic, some of the rules for everyday tasks might be unrealistic.
D&D, (and by extension Pathfinder) through all its various editions, has never been intended for use as realistic economy or manufacturing simulation.
I'm glad my group doesn't sit around and worry about this kid of stuff.
-Skeld
Where as for others, realism is more important than actually being able to do it in the game.
<points to self>
The Copper ring should not take 4 weeks to make. And there's no way a MW full plate set of armor should take 4 weeks either.A masterwork copper ring? Can you imagine the detailing and worksmanship that must go into such a thing? Value is something like 60gp, right? What kind of copper ring might be worth a pound of gold?
Yes, it certainly DOES take 4 weeks to make a MW copper ring.
And Full Plate? 4 weeks of dedicated work doesn't seem too short here, either. ESPECIALLY since the masterwork property is added seperately. To create the full plate is DC19 (10+armor bonus), which takes 4 weeks, and to add the masterwork component (done seperately, according to the rules), is DC20, which takes another 4 weeks. 2 months for masterwork full plate, possibly less for a good crafter (+15 check, take 10 is 25, or a 1 week reduction for each component, for a total of 6 weeks).
This has been brought up in multiple armor threads. Full plate takes a full team with multiple masters 1-3 months, more if it has anything fancy.
Where as for others, realism is more important than actually being able to do it in the game.
<points to self>
Except... there isn't realism, either. And may I remind you, you're the one who claimed to have a good idea of how accurate X weeks was for a Greek god to make a suit of armor out of a nonexistent metal, so I very much have to question your notions of 'realism.'
Except... there isn't realism, either. And may I remind you, you're the one who claimed to have a good idea of how accurate X weeks was for a Greek god to make a suit of armor out of a nonexistent metal, so I very much have to question your notions of 'realism.'Where as for others, realism is more important than actually being able to do it in the game.
<points to self>
That was for him to mundanely craft a suit of armor made out of the strongest material known. I said that I wouldn't have a problem with the time that you said it would take under the current rules, and I still don't. I have read stories where hephestus spends a long time to craft a weapon. Why would it be any different for armor? And though the crafting system is bad, it coincidentally correctly allots time for the armor crafting without special materials. If anything, it cuts the times short.
Caineach, how about the realism problem with craft time of longbows and composite longbows? Care to comment on it?
That was for him to mundanely craft a suit of armor made out of the strongest material known.
Again. Greek god.
I said that I wouldn't have a problem with the time that you said it would take under the current rules, and I still don't. I have read stories where hephestus spends a long time to craft a weapon. Why would it be any different for armor?
When Hephaestus takes a very long time to create a weapon, it is a very, very good weapon worthy of the gods themselves. A suit of adamantine plate is not very good. In fact, it's pretty crappy. Certainly not worthy of any gods.
Caineach, how about the realism problem with craft time of longbows and composite longbows? Care to comment on it?
Composite bows are not priced off of realism, but ballance. Therefore, the craft times the game puts out are bogus. I never said the current craft system was good. I said many things coincidentally have accurate craft times with it, the armors being one of them. I also made the claim that most things in the equipment section are fairly historically accurate in price. Bows are an exception to this, but I stand by that statement.
When Hephaestus takes a very long time to create a weapon, it is a very, very good weapon worthy of the gods themselves. A suit of adamantine plate is not very good. In fact, it's pretty crappy. Certainly not worthy of any gods.
What are you going to tell me, that Hephestus doesn't have mastercraft and craft magical arms and armor? He isn't going to waste his time creating a great base suit without working magic into it. He is going to make it into an artifact, the adamantine armor is just the base, and it has to be worthy.
What are you going to tell me, that Hephestus doesn't have mastercraft and craft magical arms and armor? He isn't going to waste his time creating a great base suit without working magic into it. He is going to make it into an artifact, the adamantine armor is just the base, and it has to be worthy.
You aren't very good at dodging questions you can't answer. You're STILL stating that the God of Forging should take multiple years to make a mundane suit of armor. It's just that he then enchants it afterwords.
How about the ring issue? A ring of an easier to work with material takes a year, while a ring of more difficult material takes weeks?
As for "Balance," make up your g$#&$%n mind. Is it for realism or not?
What are you going to tell me, that Hephestus doesn't have mastercraft and craft magical arms and armor? He isn't going to waste his time creating a great base suit without working magic into it. He is going to make it into an artifact, the adamantine armor is just the base, and it has to be worthy.You aren't very good at dodging questions you can't answer. You're STILL stating that the God of Forging should take multiple years to make a mundane suit of armor. It's just that he then enchants it afterwords.
How about the ring issue? A ring of an easier to work with material takes a year, while a ring of more difficult material takes weeks?
As for "Balance," make up your g%!%#&n mind. Is it for realism or not?
Did you actually read my post? I said that the current craft system is crap. I said some things were priced for ballance, and since the craft times are based off price, those craft times are totally messed up. COINCIDENTALLY, some times match up with realistic times that are historically accurate. Likewise, most mundane items are not priced for ballance, but are actually realistic prices (that does not mean their craft times are accurate by necessity, though they may be). And I still have no problems with the god of forging taking months to craft an item without using his power.
Caineach:
Aaah... some of the stuff is accurate, much of it isn't?
What's the point of that statement? Honest question. I mean, if I made up a random system, it would have a reasonable chance of happening to be right here and there, but not sure that ... means anything.
Man in black:
Simple.
'It takes a reasonable amount of time to make stuff. Unless the timing is really important, assume you make stuff in a week to a month of downtime, if you can take 10. If you have to take 20, it's going to take a long time.
You can only sell mundane goods to NPCs at cost.'
Done.
I said that the current craft system is crap.Okay. If everyone is currently at this point, then it's time to stop complaining about the current system and everyone should consider how a replacement system should work and why.
Nevertheless, I propose we make Zoidberg do it.
The trick here is to:
A. KISS (keep it simple, stupid)B. Be fun, or at least not disruptive
C. Be semi-realistic
I think any 2 of these can be achieved.
I also think it shouldn't require players to invest resources other than skill points to do.
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I said that the current craft system is crap.Okay. If everyone is currently at this point, then it's time to stop complaining about the current system and everyone should consider how a replacement system should work and why.
Nevertheless, I propose we make Zoidberg do it.
Man, we were here thirty plus posts ago. I don't know why we keep getting derailed.
I still like the idea of leaving the rules mostly intact and finding a good fix like gold instead of silver.
A good fix for Craft Alchemy, at the very least, is that it should be possible *at miminum* to make a single dose of something per Alchemist lab used. This way you could keep multiple laboratories and make multiple doses. If combined with gold instead of silver this could make the times for poisons, tanglefoot bags, and such much easier over all.
Except that still doesn't fix the basic problem that 'time to make' and 'cost' have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
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Why should they?... You just now proposed keeping the rule where time to make and cost are associated.
I still like the idea of leaving the rules mostly intact and finding a good fix like gold instead of silver.>:|
EDIT: Ah, figured out what you mean. Sorry, thought he was coming at this from the finished product angle, not construction! Hehe
Come on, support the marriage of time to DC!
I'd support this is DCs in the game weren't so compressed but this would result in half-plate armor taking the same amount of time that a pair of nunchuks takes to make :|
The simple fact of the matter is a simple algebraic formula is going to impossible to make. If you do it based upon intrinsic value things like art object and jewelry take too long to make. If you do it based upon DC you'd need to have higher differentiation in craft DCs which would result in needing more expert 10s in the game.
*Twiddles thumbs*Come on, support the marriage of time to DC!
The problem with linking time to DC is that not everything that takes the same DC takes the same amount of time. For example, crafting a fishing boat is a typical item, fishing boats are not military craft, they are not masterwork or anything, just a plain old every day fishing boat. The DC per the table is 10. This also happens to be the DC to make an Iron Pot, a Wagon, a Table, a Chair, a Bed, and hundreds of other items of everyday common usage.
It should take about 2-3 months to build a fishing boat (say 40 footer). Maybe a few days to a week for an iron pot, a month for a wagon, a week for a table, a day or two for a chair, and a week for a bed.
The problem is that crafting crafting really big things isn't any harder than medium sized things, it just takes longer.
That's why I argued earlier that crafting should be based off the size of the object first, then modified for complexity.
*Twiddles thumbs*Come on, support the marriage of time to DC!
The problem with linking time to DC is that not everything that takes the same DC takes the same amount of time. For example, crafting a fishing boat is a typical item, fishing boats are not military craft, they are not masterwork or anything, just a plain old every day fishing boat. The DC per the table is 10. This also happens to be the DC to make an Iron Pot, a Wagon, a Table, a Chair, a Bed, and hundreds of other items of everyday common usage.
It should take about 2-3 months to build a fishing boat (say 40 footer). Maybe a few days to a week for an iron pot, a month for a wagon, a week for a table, a day or two for a chair, and a week for a bed.
The problem is that crafting crafting really big things isn't any harder than medium sized things, it just takes longer.
That's why I argued earlier that crafting should be based off the size of the object first, then modified for complexity.
I think one of the issues is that all crafts are treated the same.
Perhaps instead of tying DC to cost, we make flat DC's for specific TYPES of items, aka heavy armor requires x DC and x time, medium armor requires y DC and y time, exotic weapons require z DC and z time. Ideally, none of these would be in the realm of multiple weeks - I am 100% against the idea that enchanting an item should take less time then making it in the first place, unless you take some kind of feat or perk to make enchanting take less time. This way, you could say, for example, that all rings have x time and DC, and still keep it seperate from armor. Furthermore, having a flat DC like this would honestly SAVE more room then crafting currently takes up. Simply add something like "Adds x to DC and time when crafting" to exotic materials, a single table with DC/times, and you're set.
I think one of the issues is that all crafts are treated the same.Perhaps instead of tying DC to cost, we make flat DC's for specific TYPES of items, aka heavy armor requires x DC and x time, medium armor requires y DC and y time, exotic weapons require z DC and z time. Ideally, none of these would be in the realm of multiple weeks - I am 100% against the idea that enchanting an item should take less time then making it in the first place, unless you take some kind of feat or perk to make enchanting take less time. This way, you could say, for example, that all rings have x time and DC, and still keep it seperate from armor. Furthermore, having a flat DC like this would honestly SAVE more room then crafting currently takes up. Simply add something like "Adds x to DC and time when crafting" to exotic materials, a single table with DC/times, and you're set.
Yep,
That's pretty much what I suggested earlier. Use item weight as a basis for the time, then have a default multiplier by crafting skill for that weight to turn it into days of crafting. A rowboat a fishing trawler and a warship are all the same skill, but a rowboat is much smaller and therefore takes much less time to craft than a trawler, which is as much smaller and takes less time than a warship.Not everything has a weight obviously (like the ships above), so you'd have to do something like use size categories for large items (a canoe is medium, takes 5 days, each size increment takes 5x longer than the previous, so a rowboat (large) takes 25 days, a 50 foot trawler (huge) takes 125 days (3 months) and a 100 foot warship takes 625 days (two years).
It's a bit more complex in setup, working out the multipliers by crafting skill, but once you're done, you've got something that at least is internally consistent. I don't insist on this being a real world simulator, that's no fun, but I would like some internal consistency.
I've seen a lot of nice fixes here for poison crafting and crafting in general, but not many ideas that allow for crafting multiple doses simultaneously.