Did you know that to make a single dose of Dark Reaver Powder with a +10 craft (alchemy) modifier and taking 10, it will take nearly 6 months to complete. Alternatively, anyone could walk up to a tree and instantaneously turn it into a pile of clubs.
How do we get around this absurdity that we call the crafting rules? If I have a poison root, and I want to turn it into a poisonous powder, it should take me a few minutes, not a few months (or for some poisons, years and years).
A 20th-level commoner or expert with max ranks in Craft (alchemy), 20 Intelligence, and Skill Focus in the skill, taking 10 on his skill check, and raising the Craft DC by 10, would still take 9 weeks to make a single dose of dark reaver powder. God forbid he try to make something like King's Sleep.
A level 1 apothecary would die of old age before he finished a single dose of Tears of Death.
It's a wonder poisons exist in the gaming world at all. They aren't worth the time investment. *rolls eyes*
That leaves magic. Magic can quicken these times substantially, but can anyone give me any reason why the creation of such mundane substances should logically be the sole domain of spellcasters?
The crafting rules in Pathfinder, just like in v3.5, are totally broke.
Creative Director
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My suggestion: Rather than toss your hands up in the air, roll eyes, and make fun of the rules... (and honestly... I'm kind of okay if it takes a 20th level commoner several months to brew a potent poison)... make new rules to fix the problem. My solution: A "Craft Poison" feat that lets you vastly speed up the time it takes to craft poison.
The Craft rules work fine for things that are relatively inexpensive... like the majority of all of the things in the equipment chapter. They're not broken. They're just not intended to be used to craft the game's EXPENSIVE stuff. Which for the most part means magic items. That's why we have the item crafting feats.
Poison, on the other hand, has a higher GP value because of its more significant effects. (It's one of my own pet peeves that you can't put a lake of poison in an adventure without basically giving crafty PCs a lake of gold.) The use of Craft (poisonmaking) is, essentially, a band-aid over a problem.
So yeah. Here's my suggestion.
NEW FEAT
Craft Poison
You can prepare poison more quickly than most.
Prerequisites: Craft (poisonmaking) 3 ranks
Benefit: You can create poison. The maximum number of doses of poison you can have brewing at any one time is equal to your rank in Craft (poisonmaking). Brewing a batch of poison (of any amount up to this maximum) takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the poison's per-dose price. (Depending on the GM, some special or particularly rare poisons can take much longer to brew.) To create poison, you must use up raw materials costing one half of the total price of poison to be brewed, and must make a Craft (poisonmaking) check (DC = the poison's save DC). If you fail the Craft (poisonmaking) check by 5 or more, you have accidentally exposed yourself to the poison.
Special: If you have the Poison Use ability, you don't poison yourself if you fail a Craft (poisonmaking) check by 5 or more.
Did you know that to make a single dose of Dark Reaver Powder with a +10 craft (alchemy) modifier and taking 10, it will take nearly 6 months to complete. Alternatively, anyone could walk up to a tree and instantaneously turn it into a pile of clubs.
How do we get around this absurdity that we call the crafting rules? If I have a poison root, and I want to turn it into a poisonous powder, it should take me a few minutes, not a few months (or for some poisons, years and years).
A 20th-level commoner or expert with max ranks in Craft (alchemy), 20 Intelligence, and Skill Focus in the skill, taking 10 on his skill check, and raising the Craft DC by 10, would still take 9 weeks to make a single dose of dark reaver powder. God forbid he try to make something like King's Sleep.
A level 1 apothecary would die of old age before he finished a single dose of Tears of Death.
It's a wonder poisons exist in the gaming world at all. They aren't worth the time investment. *rolls eyes*
That leaves magic. Magic can quicken these times substantially, but can anyone give me any reason why the creation of such mundane substances should logically be the sole domain of spellcasters?
The crafting rules in Pathfinder, just like in v3.5, are totally broke.
I use complete adventure rules for crafting poison. It does not seem to take as long.
I don't remember them taking so long, unless I did the math wrong.Edit: This does seem like a good opportunity to come up with new crafting rules, even if they are not official.
Well, the problem is that the basic crafting rules are absurd. Things take a long time when they shouldn't, and take not that much time when they should.
For example, in reality, a composite longbow takes a VERY long time to make, at least an order of magnitude longer than a regular longbow. But since the prices are pretty close, they take about the same time to craft in D&D.
If we look at 'how long is useful for this stuff to make,' again, the mundane unimportant stuff takes significantly longer to make than the ability to magically rain fire on your enemies.
My suggestion is just ignore the craft times utterly and go by something that seems about right and a simple check.
My suggestion: Rather than toss your hands up in the air, roll eyes, and make fun of the rules...make new rules to fix the problem.
You must admit, some rules are very much deserving of mockery, and the mundane crafting rules have long been one of them, up there with the fact that for a mid-level character, tap-dancing on molten lava isn't very dangerous.
Laurelfindel has some awesome in-depth crafting rules in the house rules forum. If you are paying close enough attention that the Rules-as-Written (RAW) crafting rules bother you, take a look at those.
I have my own house rules as well. You are not alone in seeing this as problematic, but I think the RAW serves fine for most players needs.
The raw materials to fix nearly every masterwork weapon costs more than a non-masterwork copy of the weapon. In particular, fixing a masterwork whip takes enough leather to make 30 regular whips, or three cows worth of leather. Nothing about these rules makes any sense.
Most of those complaints are well-founded, but complaining that it makes no sense for masterwork materials to cost more than regular materials is like complaining that truffles cost more than button mushrooms, or that teak costs more than plywood.
Laurelfindel has some awesome in-depth crafting rules in the house rules forum. If you are paying close enough attention that the Rules-as-Written (RAW) crafting rules bother you, take a look at those.
I have my own house rules as well. You are not alone in seeing this as problematic, but I think the RAW serves fine for most players needs.
Could you get me a link? My search-fu is failing.
Most of those complaints are well-founded, but complaining that it makes no sense for masterwork materials to cost more than regular materials is like complaining that truffles cost more than button mushrooms, or that teak costs more than plywood.
The complaint is not that masterwork gear costs more. It's that it costs dramatically more to make, that the raw materials are so much more expensive.
A sword, regardless of construction, pretty much just requires metal, access to a forge, and fuel for said forge, along with appropriate tools. Whether the sword is masterwork or of normal quality, it still uses the same basic ingredients. Yes, higher-grade materials will go into the masterwork sword, but enough to increase the price twenty-fold? I think not. The bulk of the value is in the skilled craftsmanship, not the valuable raw materials.
And even if you can accept it for a sword, what about a painting? Does a great masterpiece really use canvas that costs hundreds of times more than an ordinary painting's? Does it really take a 20-gold pen to write an epic poem? Is the rock that makes a master's heroic nude thousands of times more costly than the identical pile of rock that went into an amateur's unimpressive generic pile of shaped rock?
And on the other end, why would a simple gold wedding band take ten times as long to make than an otherwise identical silver wedding band, which takes ten times as long to make as an otherwise identical copper wedding band?
The system is so nonfunctional because aside from being ill-considered, it just abstracts things out so far that it ceases to have any sort of meaning.
The complaint is not that masterwork gear costs more. It's that it costs dramatically more to make, that the raw materials are so much more expensive.
I agree that it doesn't make much logical sense that the fancy materials always cost 300 gp, if that's what you mean. But it's misleading to suggest that a masterwork whip just requires 300 gp worth of average-quality leather.
The problem with the system is it has time and material cost based soley off finished product cost. Getting better at crafting doesn't really help until you can it the +10DC reliably. Likewise, people helping doesn't help unless you are at +8-9.
Some things the time makes perfect sense for. Armor times, for instance, are perfectly accurate for a single person to craft an entire suit (some may be a little short, I've only looked at platemail.) Unfortunately it doesn't really help you to get apprentices, who would have traditionally been used and reduced the time from many months to 1-2, as the master would only do the finishing work.
Standard costs for masterwork are arguably the problem with increasing material costs for high quality.
As for art objects, the material cost would skyrocket as you add things like gold leaf/thread to something. Special inks can cost orders of magnitude more. And yes, master sculptures would be made out of single pieces and/or higher quality ones, and larger pieces or better ones can easily explain the increased cost. This is one of the few areas I think the crafting skill doesn't do a bad job. I would not mind seeing high skill checks reduce the material cost though (extra +10 DC to reduce the material cost by 50% or something)
Poisons have the problem where the raw resources are expensive but the craft time should be short. The current system can't reflect that. A lot of the problem is that poison is priced for game ballance and not realism. I should be able to make a survival check and get a poisonous plant or trap a poisonous/venomous animal and make a makeshift poison quickly. The rules don't really like this though.
Poisons have the problem where the raw resources are expensive but the craft time should be short. The current system can't reflect that. A lot of the problem is that poison is priced for game ballance and not realism. I should be able to make a survival check and get a poisonous plant or trap a poisonous/venomous animal and make a makeshift poison quickly. The rules don't really like this though.
This is what I think needs fixing, really. I can abide by or explain away some of the other oddities of crafting, but PCs crafting poisons is basically not viable as written.
And on the other end, why would a simple gold wedding band take ten times as long to make than an otherwise identical silver wedding band, which takes ten times as long to make as an otherwise identical copper wedding band?Because the processes for creating a gold band, along with the fragility of the end product, is greater than that of silver or copper? Seriously.
While I agree with most of what you say, I disagree here MM. The crafting times should not be that different just because you are increasing the material costs. Value of a resource does not = difficulty to craft, and that is the problem I have with the system as is.
Poisons have the problem where the raw resources are expensive but the craft time should be short. The current system can't reflect that. A lot of the problem is that poison is priced for game ballance and not realism. I should be able to make a survival check and get a poisonous plant or trap a poisonous/venomous animal and make a makeshift poison quickly. The rules don't really like this though.This is what I think needs fixing, really. I can abide by or explain away some of the other oddities of crafting, but PCs crafting poisons is basically not viable as written.
I think what I would do for poisons is say that the cost to buy is greatly inflated because of legality and risk. Honest traders do not want to deal with it, so you have to go through black market. Therefore, treat the crafting costs much less, and let the players sell it for a profit illegally.
The smiths of ancient India, Damascus, and Japan would disagree. Quality of steel is a major component of a MW steel weapon.(LAUGH) Way to inadvertently support your opposition. ;)
The Japanese learned to fold metal so expertly and well because their metal was TERRIBLE.
Now the rock IS a big issue. Master sculpters could not just start with any old lump.
You're missing the point on the master sculptor.
A master sculptor may prefer and be able to better use higher-grade material. However, if you give a novice and a master the same pile of mediocre stone, the results will be worlds different precisely because of the quality and craftsmanship. Using the exact same materials, the master produces a more valuable product.
Heck, with just a few knots of wood and a craft knife, someone skilled can whittle something worth a couple coins out of the lowest of scrap.
Since the metal was poor, they had to go through this process to find the good bits. The METAL cost to the swordsmith would therefore have been much higher, since the metalsmiths needed to sort it first.
That said, a katana is hardly a masterwork weapon.
Not saying I don't agree in the other aspects though. However, a masterwork greatsword would need far more expensive materials than a masterwork dagger, yet that isn't seen in the rules. It's just +300 gp.
Now the rock IS a big issue. Master sculpters could not just start with any old lump.You're missing the point on the master sculptor.
A master sculptor may prefer and be able to better use higher-grade material. However, if you give a novice and a master the same pile of mediocre stone, the results will be worlds different precisely because of the quality and craftsmanship. Using the exact same materials, the master produces a more valuable product.
Heck, with just a few knots of wood and a craft knife, someone skilled can whittle something worth a couple coins out of the lowest of scrap.
I think this fits in well with my idea to increase the DC to reduce material cost. A master could then craft something at a higher DC to produce something good from the same base materials. They also run a greater risk of destroying the materials though, as they try to do something beyond the material's ability.
Since the metal was poor, they had to go through this process to find the good bits. The METAL cost to the swordsmith would therefore have been much higher, since the metalsmiths needed to sort it first.That said, a katana is hardly a masterwork weapon.
Not saying I don't agree in the other aspects though. However, a masterwork greatsword would need far more expensive materials than a masterwork dagger, yet that isn't seen in the rules. It's just +300 gp.
Flat costs are an abstraction I don't like but am willing to deal with. I can't get to youtube at work, is that the one from the shoping channel, where after the sword breaks and hits him in the chest, they still try to sell it as good quality?
Flat costs are an abstraction I don't like but am willing to deal with. I can't get to youtube at work, is that the one from the shoping channel, where after the sword breaks and hits him in the chest, they still try to sell it as good quality?
No, it's a guy called lindybeige who is (i think) a historian, and really good at ancient arms and armor. He makes great videos about different kinds of weapons and armor, as well as general rants about stuff he doesn't like (such as the caps lock key or "designer" stuff).
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I find it unpossible to believe that, in a game where people pretend to be elves fighting dragons with magic, some of the rules for everyday tasks might be unrealistic.
D&D, (and by extension Pathfinder) through all its various editions, has never been intended for use as realistic economy or manufacturing simulation.
I'm glad my group doesn't sit around and worry about this kid of stuff.
-Skeld
My suggestion: Rather than toss your hands up in the air, roll eyes, and make fun of the rules... make new rules to fix the problem.
So you're acknowledging the (current) rules are broken? (:
Okay, I'll admit it. They're bad rules. I never liked them.
I'm still tempted to use them rather than bicker about it over the game table.
Laurelfindel's rules are really good, and here are mine (created independently before his):
Each item has a Base Time of 4 hours, days, or weeks. The item also has a Current Quality, which is an ongoing check result that affects the base time.
You may assign even brief periods of time (no less than 1 hour) to crafting items, provided you were doing nothing else during that period. Time spent crafting should be marked on the campaign calendar. Keep track of the total Time Invested in each item.
Each time you work on an item, you roll your relevant craft skill. Average the result with the Current Quality on the item to find the items new Current Quality.
The item is completed when the amount of time invested meets or exceeds the time required. The Time Required is usually the base time. A high or low Current Quality might change the time required:
Current Quality...
* exceeds DC by 10+....... 1/4 base time
* exceeds DC by 5-9 ....... 1/2 base time
* lower than DC by 5-9 .... base time x 2
* lower than DC by 10+.... base time x 4
The important thing here is that Time is not a function of Money. There are many other problems with realism, but in a game where money gets out of proportion as quickly as we have here, making a time-money function is what hurts gameplay. I mean, it really viciously murders the fun.
Most people can make an educated guess as to how long crafting should take, hence this thread. I think you should start with that guess, and use the roll to resolve actual time. Materials cost can be a function of market price, even though that is super-unrealistic, because it doesn't much hurt the gameplay to do so. If you're the type of person who hates selling perfectly good magic items at half price, I suspect you will hate this too, and you should house rule both.
Those of you expecting a change to the Rulebook Craft rules can keep holding your breath, I suppose. Please don't respond negatively to this post for its "band aid" houserules. I'm trying to solve problems in people's games, I think that is more important that forcing a mea culpa from designers who didn't even write the rule.
My suggestion: Rather than toss your hands up in the air, roll eyes, and make fun of the rules... make new rules to fix the problem.So you're acknowledging the (current) rules are broken? (:
They're not "broken", really, they just aren't very good.
They do limit abuse pretty well, but they aren't realistic OR fun. I think this is widely accepted.
That said, there were higher priority problems to fix in Pathfinder. There was proportionally little complaint about crafting during the playtest.
They do limit abuse pretty well, but they aren't realistic OR fun. I think this is widely accepted.
Why include rules that aren't realistic or fun? What's the purpose?
They do limit abuse pretty well, but they aren't realistic OR fun. I think this is widely accepted.Why include rules that aren't realistic or fun? What's the purpose?
They're fast and standardized, and Paizo had to spend credibility on every change they made. Not enough people were complaining about this one, and frankly I had my own fix anyway. ( a little like healthcare reform in Massachusetts!)
What do you want? A written letter of apology?
I frankly love that James has the balls to suggest changing the rule. James doesn't speak for everyone at his company. YOU ALL KNOW how we ended up here. Cut the guy some slack.
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Ok, back to poisons.
In Ketapesh poisons are legal to sell and pesh in particular is not hard to find.
If an adventurer takes the time in game to find the raw materials (such as buy raw pesh from a grower, or successfully extract purple worm poison), then the legality and the raw material rarity shouldn't affect the crafting time - cost-wise.
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Heck, with just a few knots of wood and a craft knife, someone skilled can whittle something worth a couple coins out of the lowest of scrap.
...and then go on a killing spree in the sleepy coastal town of Sandpoint!
My suggestion: Rather than toss your hands up in the air, roll eyes, and make fun of the rules... (and honestly... I'm kind of okay if it takes a 20th level commoner several months to brew a potent poison)... make new rules to fix the problem.
Our group simply applies a multiplier to a craft skill based on the type of work being done. For example, most metalwork is x2, while gemcutting is x3. Apply the multiplier to the amount of work done per week and you get more reasonable craft times.
But really, the a lot of the wierdness should be laid at the feet of item prices, not the crafting system. The flat cost for masterworking is just plain dumb...we also use an alternate masterworking system inspired by the Black Company RPG masterworking system (very good...dunno if it's OGL and a buddy of mine is borrowing that book).
What do you want? A written letter of apology?
[sarcasm]That would be nice. I have been deeply troubled by the horrible pains brought upon me by the craft skill. It has caused traumatic stress, eye-strain, and player-character idleness syndrome. Therefore, a nice letter of apology for continuing the 3.X legacy of the craft skill -- and continuing the creation of endless hate threads about it on numerous boards -- would be appreciated.[/sarcasm]
Considering I've never used the craft skill in 3.X or in PF (nor has any player I've ever played with), I really don't care. I am curious as to why it was pushed into PF effectively unaltered.
we also use an alternate masterworking system inspired by the Black Company RPG masterworking system (very good...dunno if it's OGL and a buddy of mine is borrowing that book).
Go ahead and tell us how it works?
I find it unpossible to believe that, in a game where people pretend to be elves fighting dragons with magic, some of the rules for everyday tasks might be unrealistic.
There's only so many reasons to have a set of rules:
'This is realistic'I'm not sure why this is important in a game about elves and dragons, but I can see why you might want it from a sim point of view.
'This is fun'
Definitely good reason to do something
'This is useful'
A good argument, more about mechanics operating smoothly.
When people point out that the rules aren't useful or fun, the final battleground is 'realism,' thus much of the recent thread.
It may take me a game year to make a masterwork sword, but a week to just go buy one and enchant it as a +1 Holy avenger... why?
They do limit abuse pretty well, but they aren't realistic OR fun. I think this is widely accepted.Why include rules that aren't realistic or fun? What's the purpose?
It's a gamist solution to a game problem that creates narrative and simulationist problems.
Unless you rebalance the entire game economy by making treasures substantially smaller and the monetary value of precious items (like Magic Items and Poisons) substantially smaller you are never going to get a satisfactory simulationist solution and unfortunately you've got a situation where a cool narrative element like a lake of poison creates massive gamist problems...
I assume that fundamentally the problem of tackling the fantasy economy is both extremely time-consuming and of limited utility (because so few games are focused on PC crafting) and would ultimately cause issues with backwards compatibility.
I assume that fundamentally the problem of tackling the fantasy economy is both extremely time-consuming and of limited utility (because so few games are focused on PC crafting) and would ultimately cause issues with backwards compatibility.
Backward compatibility - yes. I can see yanking out or significantly improving the craft skill might cause some problems across the board. I imagine they probably looked at it -- realized it was too nasty to deal with -- and just chucked it into the book.
It's a gamist solution to a game problem that creates narrative and simulationist problems.
You forgot the part where it's also not a very good gamist solution to said game problem, when you're spending years making a suit of armor when the game system is designed to be far more fast-paced.