These items appear to be wrist or arm guards. They surround the wearer with an invisible but tangible field of force, granting him an armor bonus of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor. Both bracers must be worn for the magic to be effective.
Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table: Armor Special Qualities for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
It seems to me with the listing in the Alternative section that RAI is that you can not apply armor enhancements separately to bracers.
- Bracers of Armor give an "armor bonus" to AC
- Regular armor give an "armor bonus" to AC
- Magic armors have an "enhancement bonus" increasing their inherent "armor bonus" to AC
- Magic shields have an "enhancement bonus" increasing their inherent "shield bonus" to AC
So... enhancement bonuses are typed and don't stack, but they are used to enhance other bonuses (which don't stack either). But armor bonuses and shield bonuses are of a different type and do stack (thankfully). So you can have a +X armor and a +Y shield and your total AC would include X and Y.
Honestly, per RAW, I can't see why you couldn't have an 'enhancement' bonus to ANY type of base bonus, but that way lies madness (Can you imagine an 'enhancement' bonus to your Luck Bonus to AC?).
Exactly what I was saying in my previous post, by the way.
You could, however, make bracers of luck armor, natural armor, (un)holy armor, etc. I guess technically, you could also do shield bonus. The only one that's out of bounds (to my knowledge) is dodge bonus to ac.You could? Never saw "luck bonus to AC" or "holy bonus to armor" in a magical armor's properties before. AFAIK, all magical armors' bonuses to AC are of the "enhancement bonus" type. Enhancement bonus towards their inherent bonus to AC, in fact (not directly tied to AC, which would be bad because +2 shields and +2 plate wouldn't stack otherwise).
So... I'm curious. Which book was this in?
Pathfinder Core Rulebook:
Staff of Power (page 495):
"The wielder of a staff of power gains a +2 luck bonus to AC and on saving throws."
Ioun Stones (sorry, forgot the page):
"Dusty rose - Prism - +1 insight bonus to AC"
So, these items do exist and they can be created, although they are much rarer (and their price is higher, according to the Magic Items Creation Table, "AC bonus (other)(Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus) - Bonus squared x 2,500 gp - Ioun stone (dusty rose prism)" )
Just my 2c.
Thanks. Now I understand that some things are possible, there could be items created with several plusses going towards AC (and other stats as well). Will we see an armor with +3 luck, +3 insight, +3 enhancement, +3 holy, and +3 circumstancial bonuses to the armor bonus to AC (for a total of +15)? Is this approaching madness enough?
Anyway, this is theoretical because all items not in the rules are... not in the rules :-)
As a DM, I'd rather not see this kind of things in my games - except as a scenario hook, or a treasure from the endgame BBEG of an eventual 50th-level campaign (even though, it will be cursed). If brought by a player from another game, I'd tell him "Wow. This powerful an item must have given your character quite a reputation, and there will be attempts to get it from him. Perhaps illegally. And perhaps over his dead body. Now do you want to trade it for a couple items that are more reasonable?" If, as a player, my character was given such an item, I'd consider its use very carefully for the same reasons.
Thanks. Now I understand that some things are possible, there could be items created with several plusses going towards AC (and other stats as well). Will we see an armor with +3 luck, +3 insight, +3 enhancement, +3 holy, and +3 circumstancial bonuses to the armor bonus to AC (for a total of +15)? Is this approaching madness enough?
Anyway, this is theoretical because all items not in the rules are... not in the rules :-)
The problem is, they are in the rules. Read the 'Item Creation' rules. Those are rules. They are in the system. +luck bonus or +insight bonus or +sacred or +dodge or +whatever bonuses are already in the rules, in the system, and no amount of 'Oh, well, they don't actually exist' will negate the fact that the rules say you can make them, and there are examples of them, and rules for stacking enchantments on a single item.
Bracers of Armor are providing a force effect. There is no "armor" to enhance with the +1.According to the Arms and Equipment Guide, page 130, you could add affects to to the bracers of armor. The wording for the bracers of armor has not changed since then so the rules should also be the same.It has changed, in the Arms and Equipment guide you could get +8 armor and an additional +5 in other enhancemetns (like fortification). In Pathfinder it was restricted to +8 total, so if you wanted full fortication +5, the armor bonus would max at +3.
The cost is the same as for adding a special ability to normal armor: an increase in the effective bonus of the bracers. Just as magic armor can never exceed a +8 enhancement bonus, bracers of armor never provide more than a +8 armor bonus. However, special abilities can increase the effective bonus as high as +13 (bracers +8 with an ability valued at +5, such as heavy fortification).Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8.
And remember: (From PFSRD): If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities.
So you can not have +5 full plate and +1 bracers of armor heavy fortitude, spell resistance (17) and have them stack.
Bracers of Armor are providing a force effect. There is no "armor" to enhance with the +1.According to the Arms and Equipment Guide, page 130, you could add affects to to the bracers of armor. The wording for the bracers of armor has not changed since then so the rules should also be the same.It has changed, in the Arms and Equipment guide you could get +8 armor and an additional +5 in other enhancemetns (like fortification). In Pathfinder it was restricted to +8 total, so if you wanted full fortication +5, the armor bonus would max at +3.
The cost is the same as for adding a special ability to normal armor: an increase in the effective bonus of the bracers. Just as magic armor can never exceed a +8 enhancement bonus, bracers of armor never provide more than a +8 armor bonus. However, special abilities can increase the effective bonus as high as +13 (bracers +8 with an ability valued at +5, such as heavy fortification).Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8.And remember: (From PFSRD): If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities.
So you can not have +5 full plate and +1 bracers of armor heavy fortitude, spell resistance (17) and have them stack.
Wow. I never caught that. about the cease functioning. That seems... stupid to me. Does magic armor stop working when you put on bracers of armor with a higher armor bonus than the armor?
'Bracers Of Armor' can have abilities applied to them as long as the cost is incorporated, they can also enjoy the benefit of an 'Augment Crystal' such as those found in the 'Magic Item Compendium' sourcebook since they count as a type of Armor and are obviously magical items though the type of crystal that can be attatched is based on the 'bonus' of the Bracers themselves which does NOT count any enhancement bonus applied to abilities instead of the basic enhancement bonus.
For all intensive purposes, they count as 'Armor' and function just as a 'Mage Armor' spell does, which technically counts as Armor, yet it is a Force effect and applies ONLY vs Incorporeal Touch Attacks and NOT all other kinds of Touch Attacks (since Force effects work normally against Incorporeal/Etheral foes such as 'Magic Missile')
'Deflection Bonus' is a unique form of Armor adjustement that is NOT stated in the 'Mage Armor' spell which is the PREQUISITE for making the 'Bracers Of Armor', so the bonus is not to be confused.
Hope that helps.
Wow. I never caught that. about the cease functioning. That seems... stupid to me. Does magic armor stop working when you put on bracers of armor with a higher armor bonus than the armor?
The higher AC bonus counts, other effects still remain.
The higher AC bonus counts, other effects still remain.
Wow. I never caught that. about the cease functioning. That seems... stupid to me. Does magic armor stop working when you put on bracers of armor with a higher armor bonus than the armor?
No.
...If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
The higher AC bonus counts, other effects still remain.
Wow. I never caught that. about the cease functioning. That seems... stupid to me. Does magic armor stop working when you put on bracers of armor with a higher armor bonus than the armor?No.
...If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
Oh woops
Thanks. Now I understand that some things are possible, there could be items created with several plusses going towards AC (and other stats as well). Will we see an armor with +3 luck, +3 insight, +3 enhancement, +3 holy, and +3 circumstancial bonuses to the armor bonus to AC (for a total of +15)? Is this approaching madness enough?
Anyway, this is theoretical because all items not in the rules are... not in the rules :-)
As a DM, I'd rather not see this kind of things in my games - except as a scenario hook, or a treasure from the endgame BBEG of an eventual 50th-level campaign (even though, it will be cursed). If brought by a player from another game, I'd tell him "Wow. This powerful an item must have given your character quite a reputation, and there will be attempts to get it from him. Perhaps illegally. And perhaps over his dead body. Now do you want to trade it for a couple items that are more reasonable?" If, as a player, my character was given such an item, I'd consider its use very carefully for the same reasons.
Actually it's definitely within the rules but keep in mind that additional effects attached to an item that takes up a specific slot increase the cost of the additional ability by 50%
Thus I could make Full Plate +5 with an additional +5 bonus to natural armor but I'd be paying +75,000 instead if +50,000 for the effect. It's incredibly costly and likely to only be in effect for Epic level characters but it can be worthwhile to free up body slots for other needed items.
Actually it's definitely within the rules but keep in mind that additional effects attached to an item that takes up a specific slot increase the cost of the additional ability by 50%
Thus I could make Full Plate +5 with an additional +5 bonus to natural armor but I'd be paying +75,000 instead if +50,000 for the effect. It's incredibly costly and likely to only be in effect for Epic level characters but it can be worthwhile to free up body slots for other needed items.
Agree'd it's within the rules...
...but it's not the +5/+5 that is an issue, that's expensive.
What's not nearly as expensive is this :
Full Plate MW (1600 + 150) = 1750gp
Enchanted (+1 Enhancement) = +1000gp
Enchanted (+1 Deflection) = +2000gp + 1000gp (50% increase in price)
Enchanted (+1 Sacred) = +2500gp + 1250gp (50% increase in price)
Enchanted (+1 Luck) = +2500gp + 1250gp (50% increase in price)
Enchanted (+1 Dodge) = +2500gp + 1250gp (50% increase in price)
Total bonus to AC = Full Plate + 5
Total Cost : 17,000gp (if I figured that correctly)
Normal +5 Full Plate Cost : (5*5*1000)+1750 = 26,750gp
That's a savings of 9,750gp (again, if I added that right on the fly).
And you can keep boosting the extra enchantments. And, theoretically, you can pop a Profane bonus (there's no rules other than house rules that I know of that Sacred can't co-exist with Profane). And I'm sure I missed a bonus type or two.
Actually it's definitely within the rules but keep in mind that additional effects attached to an item that takes up a specific slot increase the cost of the additional ability by 50%
Thus I could make Full Plate +5 with an additional +5 bonus to natural armor but I'd be paying +75,000 instead if +50,000 for the effect. It's incredibly costly and likely to only be in effect for Epic level characters but it can be worthwhile to free up body slots for other needed items.
Agree'd it's within the rules...
...but it's not the +5/+5 that is an issue, that's expensive.
What's not nearly as expensive is this :
Full Plate MW (1600 + 150) = 1750gp
Enchanted (+1 Enhancement) = +1000gp
Enchanted (+1 Deflection) = +2000gp + 1000gp (50% increase in price)
Enchanted (+1 Sacred) = +2500gp + 1250gp (50% increase in price)
Enchanted (+1 Luck) = +2500gp + 1250gp (50% increase in price)
Enchanted (+1 Dodge) = +2500gp + 1250gp (50% increase in price)
Total bonus to AC = Full Plate + 5
Total Cost : 17,000gp (if I figured that correctly)Normal +5 Full Plate Cost : (5*5*1000)+1750 = 26,750gp
That's a savings of 9,750gp (again, if I added that right on the fly).
And you can keep boosting the extra enchantments. And, theoretically, you can pop a Profane bonus (there's no rules other than house rules that I know of that Sacred can't co-exist with Profane). And I'm sure I missed a bonus type or two.
Yes, getting a bunch of +1 AC items is cheep, except when you realize you only have so many slots. Then things need to start stacking, and that adds additional costs. Also note that all the odd types generally don't have a slot association, so that leaves the ring, and maybe the neck slot open to you.
Yes, getting a bunch of +1 AC items is cheep, except when you realize you only have so many slots. Then things need to start stacking, and that adds additional costs. Also note that all the odd types generally don't have a slot association, so that leaves the ring, and maybe the neck slot open to you.
Well that is a change, back in 3.5 there was a "Uncustomary space limitation" cost, which is now gone. Interesting.
Well you could stack those enchantments up to get +5 but in reality your only cheating yourself out of other bonuses.
Most characters plump for a 'Ring Of Protection' sooner or later and once you get a Deflection bonus greater than +1 then your losing what you paid for in the armor - plus spells and buffs that grant you a Deflection Bonus wont work as well on people who already enjoy a Deflection Bonus to AC from somewhere.
As for Dodge, I am not aware that can even apply to Armor, plus if you could anyway, you LOSE IT if your flatfooted just like your Dex bonus so its not that versatile a bonus anyway for Armor.
'Sacred' on the other hand is different, you dont see many spells outside of the 'Book Of Exalted Deeds' to grant a sacred bonus to AC, so that bonus is a genuine possibility. (EDIT : 'Profane' is another bonus that identical to 'Sacred' but comes from evil sources, this can be found in the 'Book Of Vile Darkness' but this cant be added to an armor with 'Sacred' bonuses)
'Luck' is likewise different, but where do you really see any spells grant a 'Luck' bonus to AC? - you need a spell to begin from to 'Enchant' the item realistically but I know you could create one feasibly. There are 'Luck' bonuses to Attack & Damage ('Divine Favor) but havent seen anything that grants a luck adjustment to AC. (Though it should be said a 'Luckstone' that grants a +1 luck bonus to all saves is worth 10'000 GP I believe so its not a cheap bonus).
Ontop of all this, is it really worth all the time and trouble to make an item with all these unusual bonuses?, you have more than enough item slots available. The fact some of them are nullified or overlapped makes most of them redundant with other spells/items. Personally, dont apply Deflection bonus to Armor, buy a ring, and dont take the Dodge adjustment to AC on armor, it doesnt make sense and as for the others - well if you are prepared to pay for it and take the consequences of overlapping at moderate to higher levels with one or two of them, then go for it.
The problem is that you can in effect get a +5 suit of armor for a reduced cost by stacking multiple bonuses on top of each other.
So let's say I have a mithral breastplate.
I can enchant that mithral breastplate with a 25,000 +5 enhancement bonus or I can rules lawyer and pay 17,000 for a +1 enhancement, +1 luck, +1 sacred, +1 deflection, +1 natural armor mithral breastplate.
Later on if I need a better breastplate, such as going up from +1 enhancement to +2 armor enhancement I'd pay an additional 3000 GP to get the functional equivalent of +6 Armor for a savings of 16,000 GP.
Obviously combined items need to be adjudicated fairly and shouldn't be gamed to beat the system.
Thus combining a +3 Spear of Shocking Burst with a Wand of Lightning Bolt and making Galad's Thunderbolt spear is cool and flavorful but the cheese that MDT is talking about should result in a player concussion from the rulebook being hurled at him.
Well you could stack those enchantments up to get +5 but in reality your only cheating yourself out of other bonuses.
I'm not sure I see how you can say that. You're not really, you're paying a premium yes, but, you're getting all those bonus types on one item, freeing up item slots for other items.
Most characters plump for a 'Ring Of Protection' sooner or later and once you get a Deflection bonus greater than +1 then your losing what you paid for in the armor - plus spells and buffs that grant you a Deflection Bonus wont work as well on people who already enjoy a Deflection Bonus to AC from somewhere.
If you were going to do this to your armor, you would never buy a ring of protection, you'd boost the bonus on your armor from +1 to +2 instead. And, you'd have both ring slots free for something else, like a ring of featherfall and a ring of invisibility let's say.
As for Dodge, I am not aware that can even apply to Armor, plus if you could anyway, you LOSE IT if your flatfooted just like your Dex bonus so its not that versatile a bonus anyway for Armor.
Dodge is specifically listed in the book as a type of bonus. I agree you'd lose it if flat footed, but that doesn't mean it's not a valid bonus. And nowhere in the item creation section does it limit what you can put on anything, just greater cost for non-standard slots or stacking. Since Armor is where you'd expect an AC bonus, it's not a non-standard slot (like a ring is). So it's just the stacking penalty you have to pay for.
'Sacred' on the other hand is different, you dont see many spells outside of the 'Book Of Exalted Deeds' to grant a sacred bonus to AC, so that bonus is a genuine possibility. (EDIT : 'Profane' is another bonus that identical to 'Sacred' but comes from evil sources, this can be found in the 'Book Of Vile Darkness' but this cant be added to an armor with 'Sacred' bonuses)'Luck' is likewise different, but where do you really see any spells grant a 'Luck' bonus to AC? - you need a spell to begin from to 'Enchant' the item realistically but I know you could create one feasibly. There are 'Luck' bonuses to Attack & Damage ('Divine Favor) but havent seen anything that grants a luck adjustment to AC. (Though it should be said a 'Luckstone' that grants a +1 luck bonus to all saves is worth 10'000 GP I believe so its not a cheap bonus).
What spells grant what bonuses is, not to be rude, irrelevant to the conversation. The magic item creation rules specifically list luck, sacred, and profane as examples of bonuses, not as the only bonuses you can use. If it's a bonus in the system, you can use it, is the only way to interpret the rules.
Please note, I'm not advocating building armor like this, I'm saying you can per the rules, and that it's perfectly legal. It has some disadvantaes yes, but it also saves you 9K in gold. You can buy a lot of other items for 9K.
Ontop of all this, is it really worth all the time and trouble to make an item with all these unusual bonuses?, you have more than enough item slots available. The fact some of them are nullified or overlapped makes most of them redundant with other spells/items. Personally, dont apply Deflection bonus to Armor, buy a ring, and dont take the Dodge adjustment to AC on armor, it doesnt make sense and as for the others - well if you are prepared to pay for it and take the consequences of overlapping at moderate to higher levels with one or two of them, then go for it.
Again, I'm not advocating this, I'm saying it is within the rules, and, when you look at it, there's no reason not to do it.
Time? No extra time involved. Enchanting is based off price, this saves 9K in gold, which is 9 days of enchanting, so shorter to make than a +5 Full Plate.
Trouble? Again, shorter time, shorter effort. Only trouble in making it is putting the AC bonuses in the right boxes on your sheet. Not a major effort.
How are they redundant or nullified? Only Dodge can be nullified, but that doesn't stop people from taking Dodge feat, and unlike most bonuses, all Dodge bonuses stack with each other. They are only redundant if you buy other items that also give the same bonus, which, you wouldn't. You'd use those slots for other items (see rings above).
The big thing is, you can keep enchanting those, and you can boost them across the board one at a time. Instead of having to save up to pay for a +6 boost to add an armor ability, you can save up to get a +2 enhancement instead and use that for your armor ability, very cheap. Again, not advocating this, just pointing out the way it is actually encourages you to do your armor like this.
Thus combining a +3 Spear of Shocking Burst with a Wand of Lightning Bolt and making Galad's Thunderbolt spear is cool and flavorful but the cheese that MDT is talking about should result in a player concussion from the rulebook being hurled at him.
Pretty much. I honestly don't mind personally a couple of added bonuses, especially say, Natural Armor or Sacred or Profane (especially on 'Holy Armor' or 'Unholy Armor' or 'Of the Woods' armor (sacred, profane, natural respectively)). Those would have flavor and fit the type of armor (especially for a paladin, antipaladin, druid respectively).
But the wholesale '+1 of each bonus type' is really going overboard, but, it's RAW. :(
Thus combining a +3 Spear of Shocking Burst with a Wand of Lightning Bolt and making Galad's Thunderbolt spear is cool and flavorful but the cheese that MDT is talking about should result in a player concussion from the rulebook being hurled at him.Pretty much. I honestly don't mind personally a couple of added bonuses, especially say, Natural Armor or Sacred or Profane (especially on 'Holy Armor' or 'Unholy Armor' or 'Of the Woods' armor (sacred, profane, natural respectively)). Those would have flavor and fit the type of armor (especially for a paladin, antipaladin, druid respectively).
But the wholesale '+1 of each bonus type' is really going overboard, but, it's RAW. :(
If I was to allow it it would be a +50% for each additional effect.
So a ring of protection +2 that adds the invisibility effect would pay 150% for the invisibility effect and if they later wanted to add counterspells it would be 200% of cost, etc. You could still cheese out some but after a certain point you'd reach a point of diminishing returns.
I'd still smack the person who wants to stack +1 of each bonus type on the same item. That way lies Full Plate +5, with +5 Insight and +5 Sacred bonuses. It would very quickly break the AC/BAB math.
non-standard slot...
As I stated before, this does not exist in pathfinder. You could have pants that take up the foot slot that give you a and enhancement bonus to Int, it would be called smarty pants. LOL
Edit: with no extra cost ether.
If I was to allow it it would be a +50% for each additional effect.
So a ring of protection +2 that adds the invisibility effect would pay 150% for the invisibility effect and if they later wanted to add counterspells it would be 200% of cost, etc. You could still cheese out some but after a certain point you'd reach a point of diminishing returns.
I'd still smack the person who wants to stack +1 of each bonus type on the same item. That way lies Full Plate +5, with +5 Insight and +5 Sacred bonuses. It would very quickly break the AC/BAB math.
But you miss the fact that this is money they probably should have been spending protecting against energy effect, negative effect, and other things that they won't have money for because they focused on AC.
Edit: You generally would be a very poor GM or modual if all you relied on effecting the character was their AC.
If I was to allow it it would be a +50% for each additional effect.
So a ring of protection +2 that adds the invisibility effect would pay 150% for the invisibility effect and if they later wanted to add counterspells it would be 200% of cost, etc. You could still cheese out some but after a certain point you'd reach a point of diminishing returns.
I'd still smack the person who wants to stack +1 of each bonus type on the same item. That way lies Full Plate +5, with +5 Insight and +5 Sacred bonuses. It would very quickly break the AC/BAB math.
But you miss the fact that this is money they probably should have been spending protecting against energy effect, negative effect, and other things that they won't have money for because they focused on AC.
Edit: You generally would be a very poor GM or modual if all you relied on effecting the character was their AC.
Of course AC isn't everything and stacked items really only impact high level play (when you are actually coming up against the maximum body slots) limitation.
Now I readily admit that prior to Epic levels stacking multiple +5 AC items in one slot is probably suboptimal. However in the 18-20 level game the ability to make what is arguably an epic level item without needing to spend anywhere near epic level money.
Keep in mind that a suit of armor with a +10 enhancement bonus is worth 1,000,000 GP. A custom stacked suit of armor with +5 enhancement and +5 insight is 118,750 or a difference of 881,250 GP. It's almost 1/10th of the price for what is the exact same mechanical effect.
Being able to get an epic level effect for the barest fraction of what epic level items is what MDT and I are discussing. Now obviously it's totally an exploit but if you are RAW kinda guy this is the sort of crap you can get in trouble with.
That's sort of my point, it is effective at lower levels. You can always save money by stacking bonuses rather than buying a higher single bonus. Just the +5 showed you could. The higher you go, the more money you actually save (see 118K vs 1 Millions above).
And, here are a list of all the different bonus types I can think of. Note, not all of them can be put on as enchantments, but, they would all stack. Note some are AC specific (like Shield and Deflection) while other's wouldn't apply to AC, I just list them all.
Circumstance*
Deflection
Dodge**
Enhancement***
Inherent*
Insight
Luck
Profane
Racial*
Sacred
* These bonuses usually stack if from different sources. For example, a racial template from a half-dragon usually increases existing natural armor (racial boost). Inherent bonuses stack if from different sources (tomes vs leveling). Circumstance if there are different circumstances. Racial and Inherent are a bit iffy as far as existing in PF. They existed in 3.5 core, I don't know if PF got rid of them or not.
** Dodge bonuses always stack with each other, but are lost when you are flat footed.
*** Enhancements of different types stack. So...
There are 3 sources of AC.
Armor
Natural Armor
Shield
You could have a +1 Enhancement to Armor, a +1 Enhancement to Natural Armor, and a +1 Enhancement to Shield, which would net +3 total for 3000gp (4000gp if all on the same item).
In all reality though - this is just cutting corners, whats good for the goose is good for the gander too, the GM`s should feel free to replace their bad guy NPC`s +5 Fullplate with this variation and spend the rest of his money on other magic items - so in the end, it`d be a no win situation.
To simplify all of this, Armor AND Shields should be limited to something that makes sense...
Like this "+1 Sacred Fullplate Of Luck" (Adds +1 Sacred and +1 Luck bonus to AC) it sounds practical.
Plus theres the fact an item FULL of +1 bonuses STILL only has a small caster level requirement (which is a bonus and a hinderance), it makes the item easy to surpress through `Dispel Magic` since ALL armor bonuses granted through magical means are a minimum 3x the magical armor bonus as far as I believe if its the same as it was in 3.5. (3rd Lv = +1, 6th Lv = +2, 9th Lv = +3 and so on...), this caster level requirement has a HUGE impact on the price as it forms part of the multiplier for armor and other items I am sure, so if they want to rely on small bonuses stacking on one another then be prepared...
Furthermore HOW does a character even KNOW of these bonuses to WANT them in their armor...I`d say theres a neccesity to do research on the part of the character looking into these kinds of bonuses which to me mens Knowledge rolls and this should apply EVEN in character creation, that balances it all out. If they make the rolls they can have that bonus, one roll per bonus, that makes it fair.
In all reality though - this is just cutting corners, whats good for the goose is good for the gander too, the GM`s should feel free to replace their bad guy NPC`s +5 Fullplate with this variation and spend the rest of his money on other magic items - so in the end, it`d be a no win situation.
Oh absolutely, and this is one reason why it hasn't come up in my game. My players know that if they do it, I'll do it (and vice versa). I hate arms races, I just wish the race wasn't so easy to do per RAW.
To simplify all of this, Armor AND Shields should be limited to something that makes sense...
Like this "+1 Sacred Fullplate Of Luck" (Adds +1 Sacred and +1 Luck bonus to AC) it sounds practical.
Yep, I don't mind something that's themed (A Paladin of Olidammera for example would be perfectly in theme for the +1 Sacred Fullplate of Luck).
Plus theres the fact an item FULL of +1 bonuses STILL only has a small caster level requirement (which is a bonus and a hinderance), it makes the item easy to surpress through `Dispel Magic` since ALL armor bonuses granted through magical means are a minimum 3x the magical armor bonus as far as I believe if its the same as it was in 3.5. (3rd Lv = +1, 6th Lv = +2, 9th Lv = +3 and so on...), this caster level requirement has a HUGE impact on the price as it forms part of the multiplier for armor and other items I am sure, so if they want to rely on small bonuses stacking on one another then be prepared...
Yep, same levels, but remember, it's minimum caster level to enchant to that bonus. You can enchant to any level up to your caster level, so you could have a +1 that was CL 12 if the caster was CL 12 when he enchanted it. Unlike most enchantments, the enhancements and bonuses cost isn't effected by CL.
Furthermore HOW does a character even KNOW of these bonuses to WANT them in their armor...I`d say theres a neccesity to do research on the part of the character looking into these kinds of bonuses which to me mens Knowledge rolls and this should apply EVEN in character creation, that balances it all out. If they make the rolls they can have that bonus, one roll per bonus, that makes it fair.
I'd say that the knowledge of how to enchant is covered by the feat cost. However, a wizard putting a sacred or profane bonus on for example might require a knowledge (religion) check (unless they multiclass cleric or something). Or access to someone with the right spells/domains/etc.
I do agree with what your saying 'mdt', but when I was referring to the items themselves I was aiming at say a player making a fighter character (a wizard is unlikey to be making armor for himself but perhaps for a fighter ally) - he doesnt have the neccisary feats and knowledges to know what ability bonuses he can get access to but the player does, so the question arises...should the fighter be aware of these different bonuses?, if it can be explained in some roleplaying manner than I'd permit it, but not if its just someone 'shopping' for their character right out of the books.
In short, unless he has a well learned spellcasting ally with item creation feats, the odds of him knowing of most or all of these bonus types would be remote. If the character making the items was a wizard or an ally of a wizard PC then by all means the armor is feasible to make with these bonuses.
As for the minimum caster level part - unless a character actually makes or has made this suit of armor, its nearly ALWAYS considered to be made of a minimum caster level if I am not mistaken if bought from a generic magic item store, etc. Thats more or less what I meant. The feat 'Craft Magic Arms & Armor' has a minimum level requirement for the feat to be 5th so its highly likely a generic wizard NPC is going to be moderate to low level on average most times theyre encountered running their own stores.
I do agree with what your saying 'mdt', but when I was referring to the items themselves I was aiming at say a player making a fighter character (a wizard is unlikey to be making armor for himself but perhaps for a fighter ally) - he doesnt have the neccisary feats and knowledges to know what ability bonuses he can get access to but the player does, so the question arises...should the fighter be aware of these different bonuses?, if it can be explained in some roleplaying manner than I'd permit it, but not if its just someone 'shopping' for their character right out of the books.
In short, unless he has a well learned spellcasting ally with item creation feats, the odds of him knowing of most or all of these bonus types would be remote. If the character making the items was a wizard or an ally of a wizard PC then by all means the armor is feasible to make with these bonuses.
Ah, ok. That is true. In 3.5 at least. In Pathfinder though they introduced the master craftsman feat. That means your average fighter can craft his own magic armor. And, since he can only do low level crafting, it increases the likelyhood he'll go for multiple +1's. A bit of synergy that I don't think anyone noticed before.
As for the minimum caster level part - unless a character actually makes or has made this suit of armor, its nearly ALWAYS considered to be made of a minimum caster level if I am not mistaken if bought from a generic magic item store, etc. Thats more or less what I meant. The feat 'Craft Magic Arms & Armor' has a minimum level requirement for the feat to be 5th so its highly likely a generic wizard NPC is going to be moderate to low level on average most times theyre encountered running their own stores.
Absolutely, I was assuming they were either self-enchanting for the higher CL or having a teammate or hired wizard do it.
Fair enough....lol, I'm reasonably satisfied with that, thanks 'mdt'.
Keep in mind that a suit of armor with a +10 enhancement bonus is worth 1,000,000 GP. A custom stacked suit of armor with +5 enhancement and +5 insight is 118,750 or a difference of 881,250 GP. It's almost 1/10th of the price for what is the exact same mechanical effect.Being able to get an epic level effect for the barest fraction of what epic level items is what MDT and I are discussing. Now obviously it's totally an exploit but if you are RAW kinda guy this is the sort of crap you can get in trouble with.
Except for the rule that states anythign over 200k in value is epic and uses thr more expensive epic pricing which basically increases stuff by a factor of 10.
So if you WANT to make that armor it is Epic, and can NOT be made prior to level 21 and the aquisition of the feats as per RAW.
I haven't seen that in PF, can you state a page? Not being a smart aleck, just would like to read the RAW.
Actually, the table just says AC bonus (Other). The DM could interpret that as adding up all the various AC bonuses that aren't enhancement or deflection, which are specifically named, and saying total other type bonus squared is what we calculate on. That would certainly limit the cost saving.
You could, certainly. The problem with that though is that if you lump them together, you make a valid argument that they are 'similar' abilities instead of different abilities, which would result in a loss of the 50% increase, kind of negating the benefit of lumping to some extent.
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Actually, the table just says AC bonus (Other). The DM could interpret that as adding up all the various AC bonuses that aren't enhancement or deflection, which are specifically named, and saying total other type bonus squared is what we calculate on. That would certainly limit the cost saving.You could, certainly. The problem with that though is that if you lump them together, you make a valid argument that they are 'similar' abilities instead of different abilities, which would result in a loss of the 50% increase, kind of negating the benefit of lumping to some extent.
You would lose that, but let's face it, the squaring of the total bonus more than makes up for it.
1+1.5 <2*2
1+1.5+1.5 <3*3
etc, etc.
I haven't seen that in PF, can you state a page? Not being a smart aleck, just would like to read the RAW.
Keep in mind that a suit of armor with a +10 enhancement bonus is worth 1,000,000 GP. A custom stacked suit of armor with +5 enhancement and +5 insight is 118,750 or a difference of 881,250 GP. It's almost 1/10th of the price for what is the exact same mechanical effect.Being able to get an epic level effect for the barest fraction of what epic level items is what MDT and I are discussing. Now obviously it's totally an exploit but if you are RAW kinda guy this is the sort of crap you can get in trouble with.
Except for the rule that states anythign over 200k in value is epic and uses thr more expensive epic pricing which basically increases stuff by a factor of 10.
So if you WANT to make that armor it is Epic, and can NOT be made prior to level 21 and the aquisition of the feats as per RAW.
You will not find it. For two reasons:
First, +10 armor(not counting extra abilities) is not allowed by the PF crafting rules; +5 limit.
Second, there are no epic rules for PF yet, all the things not covered by PF rules default to 3.5 rules.
You can find epic item rules in the 3.5 SRD.
Just a thought, unless they have the capability to make it, which in some cases you can say they don't, you can, as a GM, say that no one is making such an item or want to ether.
P.S. On a side note, in general a higher AC game, might be interesting and neat. As I have had a number of games where people give up on AC as the bonus to hit, especially do to size, is too great. Also where games where size isn't an issue, ACs as is with just enhancement still make for a short fight when it comes to damage output. SO perhaps having a higher AC game could make for funner fights?
Keep in mind that a suit of armor with a +10 enhancement bonus is worth 1,000,000 GP. A custom stacked suit of armor with +5 enhancement and +5 insight is 118,750 or a difference of 881,250 GP. It's almost 1/10th of the price for what is the exact same mechanical effect.Being able to get an epic level effect for the barest fraction of what epic level items is what MDT and I are discussing. Now obviously it's totally an exploit but if you are RAW kinda guy this is the sort of crap you can get in trouble with.
Except for the rule that states anythign over 200k in value is epic and uses thr more expensive epic pricing which basically increases stuff by a factor of 10.
So if you WANT to make that armor it is Epic, and can NOT be made prior to level 21 and the aquisition of the feats as per RAW.
Incorrect. The problem is that it's not epic. It's that it's equivalent (not equal) to epic but without needing to use the epic ruleset.
By definition Epic is enhancement bonus of +6 to +10 or some combination of enhancement and extra abilities in excess of +11.
The exploit is in essence taking a +5 suit of armor (obviously not epic) and a wondrous item of +5 insight bonus to AC (obviously not epic) and combining them via the use of a single body slot. For the privilege of doing so you get to pay a price premium of +50%.
It's helpful to think of the suit of armor as a container, it contains one item [+5 enhancement bonus] and you are adding a second item [+5 insight bonus].
Note: This is how the Belt of Physical Perfection is built
[Strength Bonus] x [Strength Bonus] x 1000
+ [Dexterity Bonus] x [Dexterity Bonus] x 1,500
+ [Constitution Bonus] x [Constitution Bonus] x 1,500
Total Value 16,000 GP
By your logic a Belt of Physical Perfection +4 would be an epic item because it provides a cumulative bonus of +12 to stats. By Epic rules it would be worth 1,440,000 GP yet it's real value is 32,000 GP.
The problem is that AC is fundamentally a derived stat. It is the culmulative of [Dex Bonus] + [Armor Bonus] + [Shield Bonus] + [Armor Enhancement Bonus] + [Shield Enhancement Bonus] + [Dodge Bonus] + [Size Bonus] + [Insight Bonus] + [Sacred Bonus] + [Racial Bonus] + [Circumstance Bonus] + etc.
This exploit is taking advantage of all the different categories that can contribute to AC (some not all being able to receive magical bonuses) and stacking them on a single item.
If it helps I could just say instead of stacking my +5 Insight Bonus to AC on my +5 armor, I could easily stack it on my belt of physical perfection.
I haven't seen that in PF, can you state a page? Not being a smart aleck, just would like to read the RAW.Since pathfidner is backwardly compatible with 3.5, the old 3.5 rules still stand where they are not overwritten by new rules.
A single suit of armor or shield can not have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10, nor can it have a market price (not counting special materials or the price of the masterwork armor or shield itself) of greater than 200,000 gp. For armor or shields that exceed thses limits, see Epic Level Handbook.
Ah, ok, but, the rules there don't say anything about other types of bonuses, just enhancement bonuses and special ability bonus equivalents. I agree absolutely that a suit of armor can under base rules only have +5 Enhancement and up to +5 in equivalent special abilities.
However, nothing in the rules limit the other bonuses you can add in. And, as someone noted above, even if you didn't want to allow it on the armor, you could stack it on rings or boots or headbands or belts or... fill in your favorite slot (or slotless for that matter, if they wanted it as a tattoo for example).
The quote I was most referring to was the 200,000 gp value, which I have now bolded above.
Ah,
But, we're still back to even if you do that, it's so much cheaper to stack the enchantments that you can get a +15 total for less than 200,000.
But my mythic +5 Enhancement/+5 Insight Item is perfectly valid under the rules as they currently stand. It's quite a bit cheaper than 200k.
The +5/+5/+5/+5/+5 Armor is probably not something you can fit in the 200k, but +5/+5/+1/+1/+1 would almost certainly be.
Look, I'm not saying that any of this is really advisable as the increase in body slots in pathfinder has reduced the need to conserve body slots but there are definitely edge cases (such as monk wanting to combine and amulet of mighty fists and an amulet of natural armor onto one item) in which custom stacked items are desirable.
Yes, but someone had mentioend putting +5 sacred, +5 Luck, +5 deflection, +5 natural armor all on the +5 Armor. I pointed out the 200k rule and that the item they picked would thus be Epic.It can work on some items at a smaller scale, but there is a cost to it. For isntance if you want to add Called 2k, Deepdweller 12k, landing 5k, to your +5 full fortitude armor (100k). Sure you can, but eventually the little things come to a point where nothing more can be added without exceeding the 200k limit.
For this reason people usually split there deflection bonus off into a ring, and their natural armor bonus into an amulet.
Same armor (+5 with full forttude), Owner decides to add +5 deflection (usualy 50k but since stacking 75k) and then (+5 natural armor usually 50k but since stacking 75k) and the item is now EPIC level and can not be enchanted by non epic casters.
Granted, but as I said earlier in the thread, it's not the +5/+5/+5.../+5 items that are the issue.
It's the +2/+1/+1/+1/+1 for 16,000gp (8,000gp if self enchanting) that can be major issues.
+2 Enhancement : 4,000gp
+1 Luck : 3,000gp
+1 Sacred : 3,000gp
+1 Insight : 3,000gp
+1 Deflection : 3,000gp
So, for the price of a +4 armor (16,000gp), you can instead get a +6 armor.
And, as I said before, the current system encourages this. A level 5 enchanter can only enchant a +1 Enhancement bonus. But then can add a +1 Luck, +1 Sacred, +1 Insight, +1 Natural Armor, etc on top of that.
Yes, but someone had mentioend putting +5 sacred, +5 Luck, +5 deflection, +5 natural armor all on the +5 Armor. I pointed out the 200k rule and that the item they picked would thus be Epic.It can work on some items at a smaller scale, but there is a cost to it. For isntance if you want to add Called 2k, Deepdweller 12k, landing 5k, to your +5 full fortitude armor (100k). Sure you can, but eventually the little things come to a point where nothing more can be added without exceeding the 200k limit.
For this reason people usually split there deflection bonus off into a ring, and their natural armor bonus into an amulet.
Same armor (+5 with full forttude), Owner decides to add +5 deflection (usualy 50k but since stacking 75k) and then (+5 natural armor usually 50k but since stacking 75k) and the item is now EPIC level and can not be enchanted by non epic casters.
Granted, but as I said earlier in the thread, it's not the +5/+5/+5.../+5 items that are the issue.
It's the +2/+1/+1/+1/+1 for 16,000gp (8,000gp if self enchanting) that can be major issues.
+2 Enhancement : 4,000gp
+1 Luck : 3,000gp
+1 Sacred : 3,000gp
+1 Insight : 3,000gp
+1 Deflection : 3,000gpSo, for the price of a +4 armor (16,000gp), you can instead get a +6 armor.
And, as I said before, the current system encourages this. A level 5 enchanter can only enchant a +1 Enhancement bonus. But then can add a +1 Luck, +1 Sacred, +1 Insight, +1 Natural Armor, etc on top of that.
Your pricing is off
If on he same item, +3750 gold each, luck, sacred, and insight.If they are on separately slotted items, that is 2500.
So the end cost would be 18250 gold by going to different types of bonuses.