If I have a large eidlion and I cast enlarge person on it, does the damage it's claws and bite do go up because of the increased size? Or is that only an artifact of 'evolution' size increases?
If I have a large eidlion and I cast enlarge person on it, does the damage it's claws and bite do go up because of the increased size? Or is that only an artifact of 'evolution' size increases?
Yes it would, but enlarge person only works on humanoids. The eidolon is an outsider.
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If I have a large eidlion and I cast enlarge person on it, does the damage it's claws and bite do go up because of the increased size? Or is that only an artifact of 'evolution' size increases?Yes it would, but enlarge person only works on humanoids. The eidolon is an outsider.
And the summoner can cast spells on his Eidolon that wouldn't normally affect outsiders, like for instance, Enlarge Person
What he said.
Worth noting that only humanoids gets the reach increase from the spell.
Wait, because going from medium to large quadruped doesn't give a reach increase, correct?
Because my Eidlion is large and is going to huge, and quadrupeds *do* get a reach increase at huge. Is that correct?
Where is all this bigger is better coming from?
I have a Spryte summoner who is content with a Medium sized creature. I roll the hack n slash, while the summoner remains invisible for most of the combat.
Enlarging creatures is great until the ground gives way or the opponents have a tactical retreat to an area the now overgrown assistant can not get to.
"I don't know how big this thing is going to get"
"Run away"
Well, mine is large. I can up it to huge which gives it a 3d6 + STR bite (2d6 for size + 1d6 fire) + trip and 2 1d8+1d6 + STR claws. It can pounce for a full attack. *And* at huge, it has reach, with it's tripping massive damaging bite for AOO's.
STR is 7 at this point, 9 with bull's strength, 11 when huge, 13 when huge+bull's. Next level those values go up by 1.
If I hit with all three attacks while huge and Bull's Strength, average damage is 64. Which is not bad for a sixth level party.
Next level I can just bite, get 1.5* str and throw the opponent in any direction I want with awesome blow. Which, is you know, awesome.
I can also in a pinch make him medium if we run across any 5' corridors. Mostly we're outdoors. so, that's what the big hubbub is about. and I didn't even min/max, I designed to the eidlion idea. If I set out to break it. . .
STR is 7 at this point, 9 with bull's strength, 11 when huge, 13 when huge+bull's. Next level those values go up by 1.
If I hit with all three attacks while huge and Bull's Strength, average damage is 64.
I think your calculations may be slightly off. From what you've said about the Eidolon you've taken the following enhancements:
Trip (1 pt.)
Pounce (1 pt.)
Large (3 pt.)
Elemental Attack (2 pt.)
Increased Strength (2 pt.)
For a total of 9 pts.
At level 6 with a quadruped Eidolon and those enhancements your strength should be:
Base Strength 14
Level 6 Summoner (+2)
Strength Evolution (+2)
Lg. Size Evolution (+8)
Enlarge Person (+2)
Bulls Strength (+4)
For a total of 32 Strength, which would give you a total modifier of +11 not +13.
That makes your total damage 2d8+2d6+33 (+3d6 fire), for an average of 59.5 if every attack lands. (Of course, since I'm also the DM in that game, I know you have an Amulet of Mighty Fists and a handy bard, which is going to add another 9, bringing you to 68.5 if all three hit.)
Which is not bad for a sixth level party.
Agreed, but I don't think it's entirely out of line. The Eidolon size evolutions seem a bit too nice, and I really, really, don't know why Pounce is a 1 pt. evolution while Rake and Rend are 2 pts. but otherwise it doesn't seem too bad.
Just for the sake of curiosity, I'd like to run the numbers against other level 6 melee types.
Given your total attack bonus on each attack (+18, 6 from BAB, 11 from strength, 1 from enhancement, -2 size, and +2 from bardic song) you're hitting the average AC of a CR 6 foe (19) on anything but a 1. (Not bad by the way) So you're swinging for an average of 67.83 per round (including crits).
Lets throw that up against a human Barbarian(1)/Fighter(5) with a two hander. Given the same 15 point stat pool, the fighter in question could manage a 26 strength (16 base, 2 racial, 4 enhancement, 4 Rage) without sacrificing too much elsewhere. With weapon focus, weapon training, bardic song, and a +1 flaming weapon, the fighter is swinging with a +19/+14 (though that drops to a +17/+12 with power attack). Assuming the fighter is using a Greatsword, he swings for 2d6+24 (+1d6 fire) per hit. Including crits and misses, that brings the total average damage on a full attack to 63.265 (35.895 first attack + 27.37 second attack).
The fighter's damage is a bit low compared to an Eidolon at the same level. On the other hand, getting the Eidolon to that point requires two rounds of buffing, which is going to limit it's mobility. The fighter is also going to have a better total AC, but the Eidolon also has reach and free trip attacks.
There are definitely some tradeoffs on either side.
All in all, I agree the Eidolon seems slightly too good, even with the changes to what equipment they can use. If I had to point to one specific thing that's making them too effective, it would be the size evolutions, which are either far too generous in the attribute bonuses they apply or far too cheap.
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Agreed, but I don't think it's entirely out of line. The Eidolon size evolutions seem a bit too nice, and I really, really, don't know why Pounce is a 1 pt. evolution while Rake and Rend are 2 pts. but otherwise it doesn't seem too bad.
Because in order for pounce to be worth anything you also have to buy additional attacks. Plus, charging is situational whereas Rend happens any time you full attack and rake every time you grapple(I think Rake is over priced considering you have to grapple to do it but whatever).
The fighter's damage is a bit low compared to an Eidolon at the same level. On the other hand, getting the Eidolon to that point requires two rounds of buffing, which is going to limit it's mobility. The fighter is also going to have a better total AC, but the Eidolon also has reach and free trip attacks.
The Fighter/Barb also has three more feats (four if human), fast movement, and lowered penalties in Medium Armor. Seems pretty balanced to me.
All in all, I agree the Eidolon seems slightly too good, even with the changes to what equipment they can use. If I had to point to one specific thing that's making them too effective, it would be the size evolutions, which are either far too generous in the attribute bonuses they apply or far too cheap.
The various difficulties presented by Large and Huge have been discussed ad nauseum. Quick Summary:
-Must squeeze in many places or soak party resources to reduce.-Can be seen coming a while away when huge.
-It can be gargantuan and it still wont help when Banishment comes a knockin'.
-It can be gargantuan and it won't help the Summoner not get killed in the face by someone sufficiently sneaky/badass.
Because in order for pounce to be worth anything you also have to buy additional attacks. Plus, charging is situational whereas Rend happens any time you full attack and rake every time you grapple(I think Rake is over priced considering you have to grapple to do it but whatever).
This isn't a good reason for Pounce to be so cheap. The only reason someone is going to be taking pounce is if they already have those extra attacks, and it should be prices appropriately. Especially when you consider just how many attacks an Eidolon can potentially have.
I'd forgotten Rake requires a grapple now, considering how gimped grappling can be, I could see making Rake a 1 point evolution. Pounce though, particularly in combination with Rend, is way too effective for a one point evolution. For 4 points, a summoner can have an eidolon that makes a bite attack, 4 claw attacks, and potentially 2 rends every time it charges. Against the majority of foes you'll encounter, that's going to be lethal damage, which means the Eidolon is likely to be charging every round unless they're surrounded.
The fighter's damage is a bit low compared to an Eidolon at the same level. On the other hand, getting the Eidolon to that point requires two rounds of buffing, which is going to limit it's mobility. The fighter is also going to have a better total AC, but the Eidolon also has reach and free trip attacks.The Fighter/Barb also has three more feats (four if human), fast movement, and lowered penalties in Medium Armor. Seems pretty balanced to me.
The intent was not to make an exhaustive list of every advantage each side had, merely to show that there were trade offs between the two. For example, the Eidolon also has greater reach, faster movement, improves the AC of other party members, can D. Door out of a tough spot to defend the summoner, etc.
I think all the special tricks each side gets probably balance each other out (the extra feats fighters have are, in my opinion, going to neatly cancel out the specific bonuses the Eidolon grants). What remains is the Eidolon's damage output, which isn't _that_ over the top until you add the size evolutions. +8 Str and increased base damage on top is just way too good.
The various difficulties presented by Large and Huge have been discussed ad nauseum. Quick Summary:
-Must squeeze in many places or soak party resources to reduce.
When was the last time you played a game in which the party was frequently forced to move in single file down 5 ft. wide hallways?
Squeezing as a downside is way overblown. As for the consumption of party resources, the Summoner's spells (reduce person) are already part of the total Summoner+Eidolon I was comparing to a Fighter of a similar level. To put it another way, you wouldn't have that reduce person anyways if you traded the Summoner for a Fighter, so it can't be counted as a point in the Fighter's favor.
-Can be seen coming a while away when huge.
Fair enough, and the plate mailed fighter with no ranks in stealth can be heard a mile away. Neither is a stealthy character, nor should they be.
-It can be gargantuan and it still wont help when Banishment comes a knockin'.
Ok? This is certainly a weak point for the Summoner, but it's the same sort of weakness that a Fighter faces in spells like Dominate Person, Wall of Force, Hold Person, etc.
There's a spell to deal with just about every threat, that doesn't change anything about the balance of the individual evolutions.
-It can be gargantuan and it won't help the Summoner not get killed in the face by someone sufficiently sneaky/badass.
Sneaky/rogue types are a threat to every caster type. Admittedly, this is a weakness a replacement melee type wouldn't usually share, but the Eidolon has similar areas in which it excels. (Such as having options for enhanced speed, flight, innate spell resistance, all areas that can limit most other melee types)
There is some strange math going on here comparing the fighters damage and the E.
If i read it right you are counting the temporary enhancements (spells) on the E.
Compare the knock spell with the open lock(sorry 1.0/2.0 flashbacks) skill. The knock spell works, yes, but there are a hundred doors! The skill use is infinite and you can try again or take 10.
I'm counting the enhancement spells because unlike a fighter type in the same situation, the Eidolon/Summoner can both take an action to cast the buffs and still get it's full attack.
That ability to cast a buff and then attack is just part of what Summoner brings to the party, in the same way a fighter brings Weapon training and specialization, or a ranger brings favored enemies.
STR is 7 at this point, 9 with bull's strength, 11 when huge, 13 when huge+bull's. Next level those values go up by 1.
If I hit with all three attacks while huge and Bull's Strength, average damage is 64.
I think your calculations may be slightly off. From what you've said about the Eidolon you've taken the following enhancements:
Trip (1 pt.)
Pounce (1 pt.)
Large (3 pt.)
Elemental Attack (2 pt.)
Increased Strength (2 pt.)
This is wrong. I don't have increased strength. I get +2 to STR/DEX from the level table. +3 at level 7.
At level 6 with a quadruped Eidolon and those enhancements your strength should be:Base Strength 14
Level 6 Summoner (+2)
Strength Evolution (+2)
Lg. Size Evolution (+8)
Enlarge Person (+2)
Bulls Strength (+4)For a total of 32 Strength, which would give you a total modifier of +11 not +13.
Only that is really,
Base strength 14Level Six Summoner (+2)
Large Size (+8)
Enlarge Person (+2)
Bull's Strength (+4)
Giving me 24 base Strength, 30 after buffs. I suppose I could take the 'improved strength evolution'. I for some reason remember my edilion having a base strength of 24 pre enlarge person/bull's strength.
Clearly I added 8 (not 2) for the size increase from large to huge, which is where my math was off. Also, sick and typing before bed.
That makes your total damage 2d8+2d6+33 (+3d6 fire), for an average of 59.5 if every attack lands. (Of course, since I'm also the DM in that game, I know you have an Amulet of Mighty Fists and a handy bard, which is going to add another 9, bringing you to 68.5 if all three hit.)
It is clearly the amulet that I am remembering '11' from.
Which is not bad for a sixth level party.
Agreed, but I don't think it's entirely out of line. The Eidolon size evolutions seem a bit too nice, and I really, really, don't know why Pounce is a 1 pt. evolution while Rake and Rend are 2 pts. but otherwise it doesn't seem too bad.
pounce requires a charge. Rake/Rend only require either that you hit with two claw attacks or a full attack.
No one is saying that it's out of line - I was answering questions about 'why are people so excited about the big edilions.'
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Gale, I'll write up a worthy reply to your post in the morning. For now, I'll just say that I hardly ever get a chance to charge in game. In theory its awesome. In practice there is difficult terrain, guys and stuff in the way, corners and so forth that prevent me from charging too much.
Also, if I ever get the Rend evolution, I'll be using it like the Universal Monster Rule of the same name that specifies that it can only proc once per round. I sincerely hope that the way its written in the Summoner pdf isn't how its supposed to work because that is better than the 2 points it costs.
Gale, I'll write up a worthy reply to your post in the morning. For now, I'll just say that I hardly ever get a chance to charge in game. In theory its awesome. In practice there is difficult terrain, guys and stuff in the way, corners and so forth that prevent me from charging too much.
Also, if I ever get the Rend evolution, I'll be using it like the Universal Monster Rule of the same name that specifies that it can only proc once per round. I sincerely hope that the way its written in the Summoner pdf isn't how its supposed to work because that is better than the 2 points it costs.
Yeah, I think we actually agree on most of this (other than the part about the downsides of Large size balancing out the +8 strength and increased base damage). The bit about limiting Rend to one pass regardless of how many claws your Eidolon has was my thought as well.
If I was rating them, I'd say Rend is better than Pounce (but only marginally so, pounce can become very abusive if the Eidolon in question starts buying tentacle attacks or extra claws) and Pounce is better than Rake.
So I guess I'd probably make Pounce two points, Rake one point, and think about limiting the number of attacks an Eidolon can use while pouncing in some way. (No tentacles? No rend?)