MIB, I disagree that either WSpec or Iron will are needed in every fighter build. Get rid of those, and you can go down any 2 other feat chains, something the Paladin can never hope to do. Many feats will grant him better control over the battlefield, rather than just dishing out more damage.[sarcasm]No, you're right, the Fighter should be entirely susceptible to save or sucks. Getting a decent will save is dumb.[/sarcasm]
I'm not terribly impressed with the combat maneuvers. The ones after Power Attack are only so so. Bull Rush is dumb. Overrun is decent but unless you have reliable ways to enlarge yourself you won't be able to run down the big boys. Sunder has decent applications against non-monsters
but you need to plan on sinking the cash into an adamantine weapon.Improved Trip, Feint, and Disarm all come after Combat Expertise, a nearly impossible feat to get and still be good at fighting.
Improved Grapple would be nice but you need to sink a feat into Improved Unarmed which is borderline useless.
So for a bit of subpar to uninteresting variety you would sacrifice feats that definitely do something all the time?
Quick question: do you think it would be fair/balanced to give the fighter some bonus feats, like Combat Expertise and Improved Unarmed Strike, for free? Like, as a class ability? That way they would have greater flexibility and what not.
As should be clear, I'm a big fan of giving fighters some free feats and then letting them charge down their own paths >.<
MIB, I disagree that either WSpec or Iron will are needed in every fighter build. Get rid of those, and you can go down any 2 other feat chains, something the Paladin can never hope to do. Many feats will grant him better control over the battlefield, rather than just dishing out more damage.[sarcasm]No, you're right, the Fighter should be entirely susceptible to save or sucks. Getting a decent will save is dumb.[/sarcasm]
I'm not terribly impressed with the combat maneuvers. The ones after Power Attack are only so so. Bull Rush is dumb. Overrun is decent but unless you have reliable ways to enlarge yourself you won't be able to run down the big boys. Sunder has decent applications against non-monsters
but you need to plan on sinking the cash into an adamantine weapon.Improved Trip, Feint, and Disarm all come after Combat Expertise, a nearly impossible feat to get and still be good at fighting.
Improved Grapple would be nice but you need to sink a feat into Improved Unarmed which is borderline useless.
So for a bit of subpar to uninteresting variety you would sacrifice feats that definitely do something all the time?
You know, I have never played a fighter with less than 13 int. Combat expertise is a perfectly valid feat, and the later ones work wonderfully if your fighting the right types of opponents. Tripping can be very effective, especially with a TWF who gets that many more attempts.
There are also great feats for harrasing mages. Combat reflexes, step up, disruptive, spellbreaker is a great combo.
Dazling Display is not nearly as bad as MIB makes it out to be either. Its a great AOE debuff that gets better with more people who use fear. The opponent gets no save, and you can easily make a character that puts it on level appropriate foes for 3 rounds.
God forbid you actually branch out either. You can easily throw some ranged attacks into that build so he isn't completely worthless when you need him. It doesn't take many feats to get much better. You can spend 4 feats to get precise, rapid, point blank shot, and deadly aim.
I find it interesting that I never hear people complaining about the rogue or ranger with save or suck spells. They will likely have about the same saves, and will often be just as deadly to the rest of the party.
Sure, the fighter can't do everything, but he has just as much versatility as the other martial classes. You just need to use his completely free form class ability to do it, while other classes give you prepackaged goods.
Looking back over previous posts, I think it's funny that the historical examples of fighters most people give (Samson, Gilgamesh, Herakles, Orion) were either all demigods, or directly empowered by a deity.
I would imagine that Spartacus and Alexander the Great would be much better examples of high-level fighters. Spartacus killed a high-level centurion in one blow (unheard of in all of Classical literature), while Alexander regularly charged into massed formations of infantry and tore them to shreds without a scratch on him. The only time he was seriously wounded was when he jumped over a freaking city wall by himself and started routing the garrison inside. Getting hit with a few dozen arrows tends to ruin your day in real life :O
I'm in favor of Triumph Points, where extraordinary feats are pulled off. Methinks I'll have to prototype some fighter changes and playtest them... mmmr....
I'm in favor of having a lot of the old feats changed to that they aren't useless. Improved unarmed being an excellent example. I guess I'll always have a light weapon in a grapple that does a d3... Or I could just wear some freaking 2 gp gauntlets.
Maybe increase unarmed damage with improved and superior grapple, so it goes up to a d6 and is still a good secondary attack when you have no weapon? And so that crushing attack isn't so useless.
If we're talking point pools like in Iron Heroes, I'd give the Fighter Exploit Points. For taking time to do something other than Full Attack, like grappling or tripping, you get an exploit point. These points can be used during the same general period of time to do cool stunts, like swing from banisters, leap over a charging foe's head, etc. that would give them bonuses to AC or follow-up attacks. Maybe bonuses to skill checks as well? IH did special maneuvers you could perform after doing certain things, but that would require a bit of an overhaul that I'm not sure everyone would want.
I wouldn't mind Fighters receiving more skill ranks per level (4 + Int modifier instead of the current 2 + Int modifier, or maybe even more), and allowing this versatile Fighter to add any 2 skills to his class skill list.Oh please. Fighters (Hit it with a stick) get the same skill ranks per level as wizards - you know the guys that are supposed to know things about arcanum, and history, and planes and....
One of these classes has Int as a major class attribute
One of these classes has Int as something almost barely used at all
Can you guess which goes where?
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You know, I have never played a fighter with less than 13 int. Combat expertise is a perfectly valid feat, and the later ones work wonderfully if your fighting the right types of opponents. Tripping can be very effective, especially with a TWF who gets that many more attempts.
Really? Not saying I don't believe you, just surprised as hell...
I have a hard time justifying dumping Int since I like to occasionally come up with a clever idea and not have to RP it like in that scene with Will Ferrel in Old School. You know the one I'm talking about. But actually putting points into it? That'll put a bit of a damper on your physical stats won't it?
You know, I have never played a fighter with less than 13 int. Combat expertise is a perfectly valid feat, and the later ones work wonderfully if your fighting the right types of opponents. Tripping can be very effective, especially with a TWF who gets that many more attempts.Really? Not saying I don't believe you, just surprised as hell...
I have a hard time justifying dumping Int since I like to occasionally come up with a clever idea and not have to RP it like in that scene with Will Ferrel in Old School. You know the one I'm talking about. But actually putting points into it? That'll put a bit of a damper on your physical stats won't it?
Some of us roll stats, y'know!
yep roll, and even if we use point buy I have rarely see a player in my home games put less then 12 on a fighters Int{ cept one guy who wanted to play dumber then a pile of rocks} And I don't even use 2 skills per level.
Whenever someone argues that feats aren't an excellent benefit of the Fighter because other classes can take feats, I want to strangle a kitten.
There's only so many times you can cast Acid Splash before you wished you had anything different :D
Problem is, your suggestion is more or less "Just make something up to placate the fighter while the others play the game." The fighter is still leaving the game, only now he's writing fanfiction about himself instead of playing video games. That, and the bard can do all of that (except maybe the arm wrestling), only better.
Fair enough opinion PC. But where did I miss the fact that what we do as GMs is ENTIRELY "just make something up" for EVERYONE to do? I am not arguing the point that fighters are restricted to fighting BY THE BOOK. My point is: if your fighters want to play fighters, they (and you) should know this going in. Make an effort to get them involved. Of course the bard can do those things better, but our player-in-absentia isnt playing a bard. He's playing a fighter (I assume) because he wants to fight. When the "social" aspect of a run comes in, its the GM's responsibility in keep him involved if he wants to be involved. If he doesn't (and I have players who don't - they are happy to say "let me know when the fighting starts") then this is all a moot point.
We are here to have fun, and the list of what is fun as a fighter is as diverse as the people on this forum. I am merely proposing to the serious GMs out there (you know who you are) that there are other alternatives to rules changes. Those alternatives are our responsibility.
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Whenever someone argues that feats aren't an excellent benefit of the Fighter because other classes can take feats, I want to strangle a kitten.
Indeed, even though many people have ten dollar bills they are still a nice thing to have. The problem the Fighter has is that he needs to spend so many of his bonus ten dollar bills to achieve a rough parity with the other classes that the value of those bonus bills is lowered. Did that metaphor hold together?
I've also been trying to figure out if the higher number of feats given to every class has put a sort of inflationary pressure on feats in general, putting feats that would make a Fighter more interesting beyond his reach until much later just so that other classes don't get them earlier too.
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More pointedly, my original statement was based on the wizard only getting more and more cantrips as they rise in level. Going your whole game doing nothing more impressive than a -1 or -2 penalty to an opponent is as boring as saying 'I attack' over and over. Be it a direct damage attack or a combat maneuver.
I fall on the side of the fighter is a good enough class in PF as is, but I have to concede that one thing I did wish for the the class back during the playtest was that the Weapon Focus/Specialization feat chain was transformed into a class feature of the fighter. The class does get a lot of feats, but when you compare it to other martial classes "virtual feats", they aren't getting the often perceived 11 more feats than any other class. That doesn't bother me really, but since one of the main things the fighter does is fight well, I agree with those who say he has to use feats to keep up on the damage front, and the fighter really shouldn't have to. Weapon Training is definitely a nod toward addressing this as it can effectively replace the Weapon Focus Feat tree and at the same time give the player the option of still taking that tree to do even more damage. But in my opinion, Weapon Training is not very versatile, and a little cumbersome and less useful after your first weapon group choice at 5th level.
I think it would be more interesting and versatile if Weapon Training gave you a free Weapon Focus feat (or a weapon related feat such as Improved Critical) at levels 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th. In addition, change Weapon Focus as follows:
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter who takes this feat may instead select a weapon group (see page 56). This feat’s benefit applies to all weapons in the selected weapon group. Also, as fighters gain levels, they gain additional bonuses to hit and damage when selecting this feat due to their Weapon Specialization class feature.
Weapon Specialization (Fighter Class Feature)
Fighters excel in the use of weaponry. As such, they gain more from selecting the Weapon Focus feat.
4th: When a fighter reaches 4th level, he gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls with any weapon for which he has Weapon Focus.
8th: When a fighter reaches 8th level, he gains an additional +1 bonus to hit with any weapon for which he has Weapon Focus, for a total of +2 to hit.
12th: When a fighter reaches 12th level, he gains an additional +2 bonus on damage rolls with any weapon for which he has Weapon Focus, for a total of +4 to damage.
16th: When a fighter reaches 16th level, he gains an additional +1 bonus to hit rolls with any weapon for which he has Weapon Focus, for a total of +3 to hit.
20th: When a fighter reaches 20th: level, he gains an additional +2 bonus to damage rolls with any weapon for which he has Weapon Focus, for a total of +6 to damage.
Ideally, the levels these abilities are obtained don't synergize well, but the point is made. You free up a minumum of three feats for the fighter class (while maintaining his damage output) for more interesting feats and you make weapon training more versatile and simpler… now a fighter can be equally good with a bow and 2-handed sword, or nearly every weapon out there if you really wanted to (if all you chose were Weapon Focus for all your feats). An additional effect is that the class isn't "locked into" using one weapon (or weapon group) for 20 levels as both the Weapon Focus tree and to much extent Weapon Training class feature encourage. This version allows the player to choose how much he is locked into using one weapon.
I disagree that weapon focus and weapon spec are necessary to get an effective fighter, because thanks to all their feats, they don't have to be focused on damage and can do multiple things. Those feats are only necessary if you want to max DPS, which isn't the only thing to do in combat.
Here is an example harrasser. He trips opponents at reach, and when they get up disarms them.
20 point buy human through lvl 10. Not really optimized stats, but good enough. Not sure the order is optimized, I would swap some of them based off play. Primary weapon is a guisarm, other than that he can get standard fighter gear. I couldn't do this with any other class.
str 16
dex 15 (+1 4th)
con 13 (+1 8th)
int 13
wis 12
cha 10
1 Power Attack
F1 Combat Reflexes
H Cleave
F2 Combat Expertise
3 Improved Trip
F4 Improved Disarm
5 Improved Unarmed Strike
F6 Greater Trip
7 Disruptive
F8 Great Cleave
9 Step Up
F10 Spell Breaker
I disagree that weapon focus and weapon spec are necessary to get an effective fighter, because thanks to all their feats, they don't have to be focused on damage and can do multiple things. Those feats are only necessary if you want to max DPS, which isn't the only thing to do in combat.
Here is an example harrasser. He trips opponents at reach, and when they get up disarms them.
20 point buy human through lvl 10. Not really optimized stats, but good enough. Not sure the order is optimized, I would swap some of them based off play. Primary weapon is a guisarm, other than that he can get standard fighter gear. I couldn't do this with any other class.str 16
dex 15 (+1 4th)
con 13 (+1 8th)
int 13
wis 12
cha 101 Power Attack
F1 Combat Reflexes
H Cleave
F2 Combat Expertise
3 Improved Trip
F4 Improved Disarm
5 Improved Unarmed Strike
F6 Greater Trip
7 Disruptive
F8 Great Cleave
9 Step Up
F10 Spell Breaker
Lunge + guisarme is just a tasty build to me, IMO. 15 ft reach plus trips, disarms, etc.
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OK, Caineach, granted you get a lot of feats. But you're mile behind Ranger or Paladin on saves and out of combat usability.
And what, may I ask, does that build do against a monster without a weapon to disarm and size and multiple legs? Lets go with a dragon cause that's simple. You have some combat flexibility but less to hit and damage than a fighter that picked up WF and WS, not to mention a bit of MAD.
OK, Caineach, granted you get a lot of feats. But you're mile behind Ranger or Paladin on saves and out of combat usability.
And what, may I ask, does that build do against a monster without a weapon to disarm and size and multiple legs? Lets go with a dragon cause that's simple. You have some combat flexibility but less to hit and damage than a fighter that picked up WF and WS, not to mention a bit of MAD.
Does having a 13 INT really qualify as being MAD? I always though that meant something like the Ranger, Monk or 3.5 Paladin.
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Does having a 13 INT really qualify as being MAD? I always though that meant something like the Ranger, Monk or 3.5 Paladin.
I did say a bit.
Caineach also bumped Wis up, presumably for the Will save, and didn't dump Cha to pay for it. It's tiny MAD compared to a Monk or Wildshaping Druid but it's still two areas where points were diverted from physical stats to try and make something interesting with a Fighter.
Does having a 13 INT really qualify as being MAD? I always though that meant something like the Ranger, Monk or 3.5 Paladin.I did say a bit.
Caineach also bumped Wis up, presumably for the Will save, and didn't dump Cha to pay for it. It's tiny MAD compared to a Monk or Wildshaping Druid but it's still two areas where points were diverted from physical stats to try and make something interesting with a Fighter.
It's three ability points though.
You can't even do much else with those three ability points.
Also: 7 in ability scores is dangerous. You get that drained and you're dead. Dump stat or no.
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It's three ability points though.
Enough to have started with 14 Con instead of 12. Anyway, the stat spread isn't that important. The important point was that Trip and Disarm are circumstantial abilities that are primarily only good against humanoid targets and do zero damage (until greater trip comes around and you burn one of your AoO's on that).
Its a grasping effort (no offense intended) at making a Fighter as mechanically interesting to play as a Paladin or Ranger that, without WF and WS will probably not do as much damage as those other two, have worse saves than the other two, and be less useful out of combat than the other two. What was accomplished?
It's three ability points though.
Enough to have started with 14 Con instead of 12. Anyway, the stat spread isn't that important. The important point was that Trip and Disarm are circumstantial abilities that are primarily only good against humanoid targets and do zero damage (until greater trip comes around and you burn one of your AoO's on that).
Its a grasping effort (no offense intended) at making a Fighter as mechanically interesting to play as a Paladin or Ranger that, without WF and WS will probably not do as much damage as those other two, have worse saves than the other two, and be less useful out of combat than the other two. What was accomplished?
Hey Yuengling, I've got some ideas for changes to the fighter class that might make it more interesting. Would you be interested in bouncing some ideas back and forth?
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Hey Yuengling, I've got some ideas for changes to the fighter class that might make it more interesting. Would you be interested in bouncing some ideas back and forth?It's three ability points though.
Enough to have started with 14 Con instead of 12. Anyway, the stat spread isn't that important. The important point was that Trip and Disarm are circumstantial abilities that are primarily only good against humanoid targets and do zero damage (until greater trip comes around and you burn one of your AoO's on that).
Its a grasping effort (no offense intended) at making a Fighter as mechanically interesting to play as a Paladin or Ranger that, without WF and WS will probably not do as much damage as those other two, have worse saves than the other two, and be less useful out of combat than the other two. What was accomplished?
Glad to. Want to bounce on this thread?
Would it be a good home-brew solution to change feats so that in the hands of fighters they are used better.
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
Special: When a fighter uses combat expertise they deal 1d6 precision damage for every -1 penalty they take to hit.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action.
Special: A fighter with this feat that successfully feints his opponent may cause the opponent to be denied its dexterity bonus to the next attack of an ally as well as the next attack of the fighter. One ally may be granted this bonus per 4 levels of fighter.
At level 10, a fighter with this feat can feint in place of an attack in a full attack action.
Greater Feint You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Special: A fighter with this feat that successfully feints his opponent may cause the opponent to be denied it dexterity bonus to the attacks of any ally that would normally gain the benefit from the fighter's improved feint special.
At 13th level a fighter can choose to have this ability last one additional round for every five fighter levels possessed.
The idea here is that if feats are going to be the vehicle that we use as the primary class ability of the fighter, then the feats should be scalable and have the flavor of class abilities. By making them require levels in fighter to adjust the scales, we keep dippers from taking a level of fighter to gain all the fighter benefits of a feat.
A quick note on alternate training trees. Let me take a stab at rewriting the two presented trees to make them slightly more modular. I would remove heavy armor training, tower shield proficiency, and the class skills of Intimidate and Ride. Oh and give them 4 skill points per level.
At level 1, a fighter may choose two training trees. These training trees may not be changed at a later date.
Armor Master and Weapon Mastery would be integrated into the two trees.
By taking both of these two trees together, you would have the core fighter +1 exotic weapon. I have ideas for other trees that I might flesh out later, but they would probably add a class skill and one or two bonus feats at level 1 and have progressions that ended in a mastery at level 19 or 20.
It's three ability points though.
Enough to have started with 14 Con instead of 12. Anyway, the stat spread isn't that important. The important point was that Trip and Disarm are circumstantial abilities that are primarily only good against humanoid targets and do zero damage (until greater trip comes around and you burn one of your AoO's on that).
Its a grasping effort (no offense intended) at making a Fighter as mechanically interesting to play as a Paladin or Ranger that, without WF and WS will probably not do as much damage as those other two, have worse saves than the other two, and be less useful out of combat than the other two. What was accomplished?
Except what will a Paladin or ranger be doing every combat... The same thing as a fighter. Moving into position to get a full attack and doing it. Sure, the Paladin will also be self healing, and may spend the first round buffing. The ranger may occasionally cast entangle. But once you get into combat, the melee characters are pretty much all doing the same thing.
As for being good only against humanoids, I can trip 4 legged creatures, and have done it before without a character specialized in it. A +4 DC ins't that bad for someone good at it. Also, many campaigns see 90% humanoids, so its highly dependant on the GM. The games I play in tend to be very high in humanoids, often fighting 8+ at a time.
As for the Dragon, if its flying I can pull out a bow and be just as good as the TWF that MIB built, with a decent + to hit and + to damage thanks to 2 16s. If it drops down to where I can hit it in melee, I'm 9 damage off (2 attacks, 4 from WS, .5 from guisarm as opposed to annohter reach weapon) with -2 to hit from if I took those feats. I still have power attack with a 2H weapon, so my damage isn't bad, and I still have full base attack and the + from fighter. Its just not optimized for damage. And with a roll of a 13, I can trip a young red dragon (CR10, CMD 34) at lvl 10 without any buffs or magical gear if it lands.
+2 from guisarm
+10 BAB
+3 str
+2 Fighter Weapon Training
=21
As for the stats, its less than the TWF, who needs much higher dex because of the TWF prereqs. Yes, I could drop my wis to 10 and my cha to 8 and pick up an extra point of str and con, or have a 17 dex and 14 str at start from switching the human +2. I never said those stats were optimized, and said quite the oposite in fact. Spending the 3 points in int somewhere else could boost a physical stat 1, but its not a big sacrifice to do a build that you want. My group normally rolls stats anyway, so those look a very weak to me.
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Yeah, Paladins and Rangers are going to be doing a lot of full attacks. But they've also got options. Spells and class features that provide a little more variety in combat outside of maneuvers and smashing.
And that doesn't even touch on the saves and out of combat issues. Even if we said, yes maneuvers allow for sufficient variation in the normal routine, you spent so much on the ability to have that variation that you missed out on Intimidating Prowess to give the Fighter a bit of something to be good at in the local tavern (other than arm wrestling) and any of the 2-4 save increasing feats that would protect the Fighter from SoS. Compared to the Paladin and Ranger your out of combat options are limited and your saves are slumming in a gas station toilet. And not a nice-ish neighborhood gas station. A truck stop gas station. Ick.
As a by the by, Ranger and Paladin are the Fighter's closest cousins IMO, which is why I keep using them as a point of comparison.
Yeah, Paladins and Rangers are going to be doing a lot of full attacks. But they've also got options. Spells and class features that provide a little more variety in combat outside of maneuvers and smashing.
And that doesn't even touch on the saves and out of combat issues. Even if we said, yes maneuvers allow for sufficient variation in the normal routine, you spent so much on the ability to have that variation that you missed out on Intimidating Prowess to give the Fighter a bit of something to be good at in the local tavern (other than arm wrestling) and any of the 2-4 save increasing feats that would protect the Fighter from SoS. Compared to the Paladin and Ranger your out of combat options are limited and your saves are slumming in a gas station toilet. And not a nice-ish neighborhood gas station. A truck stop gas station. Ick.
As a by the by, Ranger and Paladin are the Fighter's closest cousins IMO, which is why I keep using them as a point of comparison.
I've already said fighters get a little shafted out of combat, but I think 2 skill points and about 3 more class skills can fix that. I really like the 2 user's choice idea. Though why would this character take intimidating prowess when skill focus would get him a bigger boost? :) I also didn't lay out his skills, which he gets a respectable 5.
The Ranger: His combat options by lvl 10 are 3 restriced bonus feats, the animal companion, and a couple spells from a crappy list. He gets some bonus to hit and damage against 3 types of foes, 2 of which he can have better than the static bonus the fighter gets without weapon spec. In many ways, he is more restricted than the fighter in combat, as he is forced into a few builds. He has more MAD and can't wear heavy armor. After level 10, he gets a neat ability against 1 enemy per day, restricted to people he is already good against, and gets some stealth bonuses. Out of combat, he gets some decent abilities for tracking and travel, but these rarely come up in my experience and can be covered by someone with survival.
The Paladin: He gets some good stuff, I'm not going to lie, but almost all of it is passive or situational. Smite is a static bonus that is restricted to evil, which has varying use depending on the campaign. Its got great saves, some nice counters to debuffs, and some passive boosts for allies. Divine bond is nice, but pretty much adds extra damage or a mount that has varying use depending on the campaign. Its got some better self-buffs for spells, and the ability to heal itself for free, which are both nice. The result is him spending the first round casting a buff, and then full attacking. Out of combat, he has some decent social skills, but gets the same skill points as a fighter. His detect evil at will is also useful. He has terrible MAD.
The Fighter: The fighter has more versatility in his combat style than either the Paladin or Ranger, thanks to his free reign in feats. Many builds can tank all mental stats, or spend a few points for a couple boosts. His special ability is his feats, and they have very few restictions. He can select multiple branches, giving him lots of versatility to pick his manuevers in combat, and get combos going before any other class, or do them with other abilities on top. On to of that, he gets static bonus hit and damage, and can have higher AC than anyone else. Out of combat, he could use some work.
Personally, I think these classes are fairly balanced against eachother.
Honestly, I feel human is the best race for fighter (its sad but true.) I was tempted by dwarf, but the 20 movement speed turns me off when you get the ability to move in armor anyway, especially with this guy who is all about battlefield control. The bonus skill point is the big draw for me to human. I didn't want to take the con hit for elf, and half orc I don't really like. I initially designed him without the feat at first level, and not picking up disarm.
As for this guy not dealing out damage, he is ~9 points off a non-tripper with weapon spec at lvl 10. With a +4 str item bringing him to 20, and a +3 weapon, at level 10, he averages 50 damage from 2 attacks (+17/+12). Its not maxed, but it does its job.
per hit:
5 weapon
7 str
3 weapon enhancement
9 power attack
2 weapon training
=25
Hit:
10 bab
5 str
3 enhancement
2 weapon training
-3 power attack
I also made it a point to say he is not great against monsters, but fighting monsters from the beastiary is group dependant. My group fights mostly class leveled humanoids, as that is what my DM prefers (and I do too). Also, Freedom of Movement does not prevent trip, only grapple, so that wizard trying to run better have fly up already.
I did just notice that its not as good as I thought against wizards :(
Step up does not work with reach. It sufferes from the same flaw as stand still, it only works for adjacent foes. :(
I did just notice that its not as good as I thought against wizards :(
Step up does not work with reach. It sufferes from the same flaw as stand still, it only works for adjacent foes. :(
Odd isn't it?
EDIT: How would it work for a Large character? Is it considered Adjacent when inside his natural threat area? I would say so.
I did just notice that its not as good as I thought against wizards :(
Step up does not work with reach. It sufferes from the same flaw as stand still, it only works for adjacent foes. :(Odd isn't it?
EDIT: How would it work for a Large character? Is it considered Adjacent when inside his natural threat area? I would say so.
If not, at least they just plain have a bigger base.
Hey Yuengling, I've got some ideas for changes to the fighter class that might make it more interesting. Would you be interested in bouncing some ideas back and forth?Glad to. Want to bounce on this thread?
Great! *crackles knuckles*
So the problem I see with fighters is that there's nothing really... well, "signature" about them. The details have been explored already in pretty thorough detail previously in this thread, and some people feel that fighters are just fine the way they are, and some feel that they're lacking a little oomf. So, for any revisions or changes to the fighter class, one should probably start at making minor changes that would be interesting to play but would not be mechanically destructive.
And thus, the first change I would suggest is some kind of pool that a fighter can draw on -- hidden reserves of strength that a fighter can call on to do extraordinary things. I would like to base this somewhat off the cleric's energy channeling and the monk's ki pool: either 3 + (some primary stat) or 1/2 * level + (some primary stat). I like the monk's system, and it seems like "hidden reserves of strength" would be keyed to the fighter's Con score, so I'ma go with 1/2 * level + Con bonus for the number of some special points that a fighter has to draw on.
So, what can some of these "fighter points" do? Well, I imagine that at very low levels they might only do things like adding some status changes to attacks: causing some bleed damage, temporarily blinding opponents, causing an opponent to be dazed. Higher-level stuff (i.e. stuff that eats up more "fighter points") would incorporate things such as giving you a free crit threat (i.e. the primary attack roll for this round is considered a confirmed crit roll, meaning that you still hit if you roll below AC, but if you roll AC or above you get crit damage. Another example might be ignoring up to two size category differences larger than you for grapple attempts (treating the Colossal red dragon as a Huge dragon instead, meaning a net bonus of +6). Another option might be adding a pretty high bonus to attack -- maybe a +5 modifier in exchange for a pretty hefty "fighter point" cost?
But what to call these "fighter points"? It needs to be something fighter-specific that emphasizes the fact that they're doing something cool, something epic. Maybe something like "triumph points," or "conquest points," or "deeds." I really like the idea of "triumph points" -- it just sounds epic. And it gives a really nice flavor when you pull it out and own it in the face.
Ok, so based on this a 20th-level fighter would get 20/2 + Con bonus (say, 18 Con, so +4 bonus) = 14 Triumphs per day. Spending 3 points might let you grapple larger enemies easier (ignoring up to two size categories, like grappling Huge enemies as Medium sized, or Colossal as Huge, a max possible benefit of +6), but it does not guarantee it. If my math works out, that means our 20th-level fighter has a reasonable chance to grapple an gargantuan ancient red dragon (CMD 52) to treat it like a huge creature instead (CMD 49), which would just be in the range of grappling.
Currently, fighters are built using feats exclusively. This favors exclusively humans as fighters. The new system would favor dwarves a bit better, as the Con bonus is actually effectual.
Does this system overall make sense? Is it balanced? Suggestions?
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Boxy, this is exactly the sorts of ideas I'm talking about. One of the things that allows other classes to be able to do cool stuff that the Fighter never gets to do is expendable resources. Every so often a wizard or Paladin or whoever gets to do something awesome. The Fighter, for the most part, only uses mechanics available to every class so the Fighter basically has no resources like this.
The only question I have is is, since this thread is designed to give APG designers an idea of what is in our heads for the Fighter and what could be in the APG, we'd probably be talking about an alternate class feature with points.
So what would be fair to give up for Triumph Points (Exploit Points? Heroic Actions? Badass Points?) that a Players Guide Fighter has? Both Bonus Feats and the Training features happen every other level. Maybe make it either one. So:
At first level a Fighter may choose two Class Features from the following list:
Bonus Feats
Weapon and Armor Training
Triumph Points
Once chosen this cannot be changed.
Boxy, this is exactly the sorts of ideas I'm talking about. One of the things that allows other classes to be able to do cool stuff that the Fighter never gets to do is expendable resources. Every so often a wizard or Paladin or whoever gets to do something awesome. The Fighter, for the most part, only uses mechanics available to every class so the Fighter basically has no resources like this.
Yay, I'm glad I can be helpful ^_^
Just as a note, to anyone at Paizo: if you decide to use any of the information I've speculated about the fighter, you're free to use any and all of it, in part or whole, and I claim it as open source as per the OGL. If there's any other company interested in publishing this material, please contact me before you reproduce it. If there's any question or ambiguity about it, just contact me. If not, I'll publish any rules we come up with in a PDF free for download, and hopefully make it available on Pathfinder Database.
The only question I have is is, since this thread is designed to give APG designers an idea of what is in our heads for the Fighter and what could be in the APG, we'd probably be talking about an alternate class feature with points.
Hrm, well. Going with the theory that fighters are kinda nerfed still, despite all the armor and weapon training, I daresay that one might add a point-based system to fighters as a sort of incremental improvement, rather than rebuilding the class entirely (like how ToB went).
So what would be fair to give up for Triumph Points (Exploit Points? Heroic Actions? Badass Points?) that a Players Guide Fighter has? Both Bonus Feats and the Training features happen every other level. Maybe make it either one. So:
At first level a Fighter may choose two Class Features from the following list:
Bonus Feats
Weapon and Armor Training
Triumph Points
Once chosen this cannot be changed.
The way I built it, it overlaps with the weapon and armor training on a one-to-one basis. If one thinks that the weapon and armor training doesn't "do it," you can either substitute or add the triumph point system on top of it.
So here's what I've written up so far:
Techniques (available at 3rd level) -- As a fighter's skills develop, he's able to draw on his hidden reserves of strengths in different ways. Depending on his training, he will be able to manifest his strength to enhance his attacks, focus his skills, or increase his defenses. Select a technique from the following list and add it to your previous skills.
Strategic Blow -- As part of a single attack during his turn, a fighter may add a special effect to one of his attacks. The player must declare which attack the effect is being added to. The possible effects and costs are listed as follows:
(1 point): bleeding (+1d6 per round), dazing (1 round), deafening, dazzling; (2 points): bleeding (+2d6 per round), blinding, staggering, sickening.
Crushing Blow -- Once per round, a fighter may spend 2 triumph points to strike especially forcefully with the attack at his highest bonus. Treat this roll as a roll to confirm a critical: if the roll succeeds, multiply its damage times its critical multiplier; if the roll fails, it still hits normally, as per any other critical threat roll. Do not multiply any damage that is not normally multiplied for a critical hit.
Follow-Through -- A fighter may spend 1 triumph point to add another attack at the fighter's highest attack bonus. This does not stack with effects which add additional attacks, such as haste.
Artful Maneuver -- As part of a combat maneuver, a fighter may spend two triumph points to gain a competence bonus of +5 to his combat maneuver in this round only. At 10th level, this bonus increases to +10.
Advanced techniques (available at 11th level) -- At 11th level, a fighter may choose any of these advanced techniques to add to his repertoire.
Wall of Steel -- To use this technique a fighter must be equipped with a shield. As part of a Total Defense action, the fighter may spend 3 triumph points to gain DR 5/-- for one round. At 15th level, the damage reduction increases to 10/--.
Rapid Recovery -- immediate action. When reduced to 0 hit points or lower (but not enough to kill), the fighter may spend 3 triumph points to gain as many temporary hit points as he has levels in the fighter class.
Unbending Determination -- immediate action. When forced to make a Will save, a fighter may choose to spend 3 triumph points to gain a +4 bonus to his Will saves for this save only. The fighter must choose to spend the triumph points and take the bonus before he rolls his Will save. At 15th level, this bonus increases to +6
Timely Intervention -- Immediate interrupt. Once per round when one of your allies is being attacked, you can choose to spend 3 triumph points to push your ally out of the way and take the attack instead. Your ally is therefore allowed to take a 5-ft step in any direction he chooses, even if they have already taken a 5-ft step in this turn. If you have moved already this turn, your next turn will be skipped. In either case, your initiative will be reset to the same value as the attacker targeted.
Impossible Mark -- As part of a normal attack in a fighter's turn, he may choose to spend 3 triumph points to greatly enhance his combat abilities to make unusually accurate attacks. Upon spending the triumph points, the fighter gains a +5 competence bonus to a melee or ranged attack. Additionally, for ranged attacks the weapon's range increment is effectively doubled (i.e. a range increment of 100 ft. is increased to 200 ft., etc.).
Fighter
add the following class features at the indicated levels:
3 - triumph pool, technique
5 - technique
7 - technique
9 - technique
11 - advanced techniques, technique
13 - technique
15 - technique
17 - technique
19 - technique
A nice bit of this system is that you can basically plug and chug -- there is module customizability in terms of what techniques a fighter can choose. What a temporary speed boost? Want a technique to hamstring giants? Just build a new technique set and make sure your DM approves! :D
You guys seriously need to check Iron Heroes. They have already done this but as a renewable resource gotten by performing attacks. At the very least you could transplant some of the abilities from there.
Also I am confused with how a class being a professional warrior doesn't fit a wide variety of character concepts. Since when did the wizard's color spray spell affect his personality?
Also I am confused with how a class being a professional warrior doesn't fit a wide variety of character concepts. Since when did the wizard's color spray spell affect his personality?Character concept is more than personality. Everyone in the party is a professional warrior; I am incensed that the Fighter class is nothing else. That isn't balanced with the rest of the party (each of whom fights competently and also solves other problems), and it doesn't mirror any other form of fiction, historical or contemporary, western or eastern.
When the fighting man class doesn't include Boromir, Fafhrd, Musashi, Paris, Cu Chulainn, Ogami Itto, Ichigo Kurosaki, Conan, Thorin, Hercules, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Cloud, King Arthur, or Leonidas, I wonder what exactly it is intended to emulate. When the support for making those characters is kludgey or non-existent, I wonder where we lost the thread. When the characters we can make with the class, like Caramon and Gimli, are the comic relief, I know that something has gone wrong.
I keep getting the feeling that you want something like the opening scene to samurai 7 (not 7 samurai, the classic film, but samurai 7, the steam punk anime based off it) where one guy jumps off the nose of an airship onto another one, cutting through some on the way down, then swings his sword and kills dozens of guards in power armor with 1 stroke. Later he is seen reminiscing about how he lost that battle...
That is entirely what I don't want the fighter class to become.
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I keep getting the feeling that you want something like the opening scene to samurai 7 (not 7 samurai, the classic film, but samurai 7, the steam punk anime based off it) where one guy jumps off the nose of an airship onto another one, cutting through some on the way down, then swings his sword and kills dozens of guards in power armor with 1 stroke. Later he is seen reminiscing about how he lost that battle...
That is entirely what I don't want the fighter class to become.
This is the kind of stuff I keep seeing come up for no reason that I can see.
Anime has ridiculous notions about what is possible with a sword. It's always been that way and it makes it fun to watch but we're not talking about it. Maybe there ought to be a class or prestige class that does do that stuff but its not what the fighter ought to be. But the Fighter ought to be exceptional and extraordinary in some way.
Have you seen Spartacus: Blood and Sand, the new Showtime series? Its on Netflix Watch Instantly as well, and totally worth checking out. In the final scene of the first episode, Spartacus is up against five armored gladiators who are (not surprisingly) kicking has butt. But then he hears the voice of his wife in his head and he opens up his own can of whoopin'. He chops off the arm of one guy attacking him, the legs of another, and yanks one enemy into the path of another's blade protecting himself and killing the unfortunate human shield. That was entirely awesome.
There's no mechanic to make anything like that possible. Sure you can say, "I chop at his legs," but there is no mechanic that makes that do anything. Why couldn't a Fighter spend some points to switch places with an adjacent enemy and have that enemy take the damage from another enemies attack? Why is there so much distress about a Fighter getting to do something cool?
I keep getting the feeling that you want something like the opening scene to samurai 7 (not 7 samurai, the classic film, but samurai 7, the steam punk anime based off it) where one guy jumps off the nose of an airship onto another one, cutting through some on the way down, then swings his sword and kills dozens of guards in power armor with 1 stroke. Later he is seen reminiscing about how he lost that battle...
That is entirely what I don't want the fighter class to become.
I get the same feeling myself But he has said so himself. I like you do not what that to be the fighter to me that just is not a fighter
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Why not? Classic literary characters do that kind of thing all the time (not specifically that one but close).
Even secondary characters from the Silmarilion and the Hobbit can acomplihs ungodly feats of power, Like this human archer whose name I can´t for the life of me remember who killed Smaug with a single arrow. Or the old numenorian generals being so intimidating that even old Sauron was humbled by them.
Fingolfin the elven warrior (I think that was his name, I´m rusty) fighting a mountain sized god with only a freaking sword while leaping through chasms.
Earendil, the human warrior whose will was so strong and sailing skills so great that he travelled to the land of Valinor without any help while holding the freaking silmaril.
No fighter as of now can acomplish any of those things, because they are NOT socially impressive, they are NOT natural leaders, they are NOT strong willed, and they are NOT able to do cool stuff like leap great distances or move amazingly during combat. And why? because that would be too anime like I guess.
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I get the same feeling myself But he has said so himself. I like you do not what that to be the fighter to me that just is not a fighter
These types of statements hardly matter anyway. They are probably not going to change what the Fighter is in the APG. Then it would require two books to play Fighter. These are suggestions for optional alternate class features for the Fighter. If you don't like optional features you don't use them. If you do then you can. Does that help?
I don;t mind optional and have suggest that a few time, what I keep hearing is"rebuild" which is useless for this thread or anything to do the the AGP
New feats, alt training ablitys are all very doable. Reworking the class is not.