PRAISE PAIZO, WHO GIVETH TO ALL MEN (AND MAIDENS) LIBERALLY AND UPBRAIDETH NOT!My wife: "...so, 3.5 for me, then?"
I'm sure there's some Errata that include Mothers and Crones. Something about an alternative class feature for Maiden, but having to give up the Blinding Naivete class feature.
Hey! Billy Joe Whacking hammer the 20th level woodcutter is not Absurd. You have hurt his feelings!
You're saying we need more fighter-only feats that aren't better than existing feats and aren't allowed to do things normal feats aren't allowed to do?
If so, then you don't fix any of the problem with the fighter.
I don't think there are problems that need to be fixed. I just want more Fighter feats to increase choices along the Fighter's current idiom. These feats should not be more powerful than Weapon Specialization. I, being a D&D nerd, also want more choices for all the other classes. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the APG is gonna do.
Maybe fighters need some kind of first level background? Trade it for something they won't miss (Armor Mastery 1 maybe) to give them benefits as follows:
Military Officer: Having learned some of what you know in or from the military, you tend to be very quick when packing and can move your small "unit" quickly. You move overland as though in a forced march when moving normally. You gain your choice of Knowledge (engineering), Knowledge (history) or Survival as a class skill. At 3rd level you gain the ability to deride an opponent more effectively, either out of a fight or in combat, thanks to your harsh learnings. You gain a +4 bonus on intimidate checks provided you are within ten feet of the target of the check. At 5th level you begin to gain a reputation, giving a +4 bonus to diplomacy checks. You may also, once per day, deliver a rousing speech to your allies (up to 1 per level) over the course of a minute and allow them (and yourself) to gain one of the following benefits if they are willing:
Rage, as the spell, but for 1 minute per two fighter levels
Heal an extra point of hp per level when resting for that night
Make another save against an effect suppressing their emotions (This use may be regulated to a full round action)
At 9th level, you gain an extra use of this speech per day and one of the following additional possible benefits, earning an additional one form the list at 11th level:
Half your fighter level as a morale bonus on saves versus fear effects for 1 hour
Temporary hit points equal to your fighter level that last for 1 minute per level
Restore 1d4 points of temporary ability score damage
At 13th level, you gain one of the following speeches and an additional use per day and an additional one at 15th level:
Gain the benefits of the Diehard feat for a day
Act as though Hasted for 1 minute per level
Gain a +4 morale bonus to any one d20 roll within the next hour.
At 17th level, you gain one of the following speeches:
Each beneficiary of this speech may take 10 on any one of the following in the next hour once: A skill check, a save, a caster level check, an attack roll.
One target of your choice becomes helpful towards you (may not be used in combat, Will Save DC 10 +1/2 fighter level + Cha mod negates)
At any new benefit, you may pick one speech benefit from a lower list instead of the current list.
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I like the idea of ¨Victory Points¨ for a commandeertype of fighter. It just makes sense that a battle hardy general get´s inspired whenever his ¨unit¨ wins an encounter or defeats an enemy. And of course weakens whenever one of his mates falls or an enemy gets away.
I can see this working perfectly for a replacement training which wouldn´t take anything away from the shallow skeleton that is the fighter now. This would replace of course either Armor or Weapon Training.
So what about this: A Fighter with the Comandeer training may as a swift action spend a number of victory points equal to or less than half his fighter level in order to gain a bonus equal to the spent points on either attack rolls, damage rolls or saves until the beggining of his next turn.
A Fighter adds a victory point to his victory pool every time an oponent with at least as many class levels or HD as him is defeated by him or his comrades in a fight where he was involved. Aditionally he looses a victory point every time an ally of him is brought below 0 HP. A Fighter´s victory pool resets after 8 hours of sleep, as the glories of the day before are no longer vivid in the warrior´s mind. A DM may award extra victory points for story related achevements like stealing an important object or preventing a caravan from being destroyed.
Later on he would be able to give half this bonuses to an ally, and even later to all allies within an area.
Thoughts?
I like the idea of ¨Victory Points¨ for a commandeertype of fighter. It just makes sense that a battle hardy general get´s inspired whenever his ¨unit¨ wins an encounter or defeats an enemy. And of course weakens whenever one of his mates falls or an enemy gets away.
I can see this working perfectly for a replacement training which wouldn´t take anything away from the shallow skeleton that is the fighter now. This would replace of course either Armor or Weapon Training.So what about this: A Fighter with the Comandeer training may as a swift action spend a number of victory points equal to or less than half his fighter level in order to gain a bonus equal to the spent points on either attack rolls, damage rolls or saves until the beggining of his next turn.
A Fighter adds a victory point to his victory pool every time an oponent with at least as many class levels or HD as him is defeated by him or his comrades in a fight where he was involved. Aditionally he looses a victory point every time an ally of him is brought below 0 HP. A Fighter´s victory pool resets after 8 hours of sleep, as the glories of the day before are no longer vivid in the warrior´s mind. A DM may award extra victory points for story related achevements like stealing an important object or preventing a caravan from being destroyed.Thoughts?
Eww. Why I say "eww" is this:
- A fighter starting out each day with the same amount of "victory points" means that the superawesomecool victory he just had yesterday was pointless. As a "commander" type, I would expect lengthy campaigns would mean he builds up a sizable amount of victory points to finally rout the enemy.
- Not all enemies a party goes up against are monsters that have the same level of classes or HD as the fighter and his party. In fact, the really epic battles I've fought have always involved a large amount of monsters that are of lower HD/levels than the party, but still managing to give a good ol' fashioned challenge. If victory points were only given by creatures as strong as the party, then the fighter would only get victory points when his party goes up against a solo monster, which would kind of defeat the purpose of a "commander" leading troops into a skirmish against enemy forces.
- Sounds like way too few points would be allocated for such a short-term buff (a bonus to attack/damage/whatever equal to the amount of points he spends) seems really, really underpowered. Furthermore, it's stacking on top of something a fighter already does really well -- dealing damage and hitting stuff. If anything, we should be exploring fighter powers that do something strategerically that rounds out what a fighter can do.
Your "victory points" idea sounds somewhat like my "triumph points" idea, but it seems like your idea would work better in a long-term campaign-length setting. Did you just kill a monster with 4 or more hit dice more than any of the party members? You gain a victory point. You can trade it in for a decisive blow in a later fight, or maybe buffing your entire party for a major battle, etc. etc.
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You are right my friend, I will drop the HD or level requirements and add a victory point reward for any defeated encounter equal to it´s CR. That should bring the total up enought for my taste.
Regarding the duration of the victory pool, it is a matter of flavor I think, I see it as the extra push the glory of battle give him (and his allies) fades after a calm night of rest.
Regarding it giving bonuses to attack and damage to the fighter itself, i will go back to my original idea of allowing him to use the points to add bonuses to his charisma based checks (due to basically being pumped up from the battles of the day) or saves, and later on (it´s gotta have improvements after all) give attack or damage bonuses to an ally, and even later all allies.
Good, we're past that "fighter sucks and isn't any better than a commoner/NPC nonsense" for the moment. Building on an earlier post I made, I think alternate class features should be had at odd levels where Weapon Training/Armor Training are. And they (as they are alternate class abilities) should replace those. I think making them as "fighter talents" would work best. Some ideas:
Starting at 3rd level a fighter gains "fighter talents". He gains a new fighter talent every two levels after that (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th).
Working with the existing class features:
Weapon Training - Choose a weapon group. You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls and combat maneuver checks with weapons from that group. You can choose this talent more than once, but only 4 levels apart. If you do, choose a new weapon group and your the bonus to your previous weapon groups increase by +1.
Armor Training - following in a similar vein.
Working with the idea of building a fighter that is a leader, such powers might consist of the following:
Generalship - You can inspire and direct your allies with great skill on the battlefield, according to the situation at hand. As a swift action, grant all allies who see and hear you one a +1 morale bonus to one of the following:
armor class, attack rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, skill checks, saving throws. You benefit from this ability as well. The effect lasts until the start of your next turn. This bonus increases by +1 for every four fighter levels you possess beyond 3rd to a total of +5 at 19th level.
You can use this ability 3 times per day + an additional time per day for every 4 fighter levels.[/i]
Inspiring War Cry - As a swift action, you can grant all allies who see and hear you temporary hit points equal to your Fighter level. In addition, you grant them a 5 foot bonus to their speed that lasts for 1 round per two fighter levels you possess. You can use this ability once per day + one additional time per day for every 4 fighter levels you possess, but only once per encounter.
Moment of Victory - As an immediate action at the beginning of any round, you may grant yourself or one ally an increase to their initiative count equal to 1/2 your fighter level. This effectively places you or your ally higher in the initiative count for the round, possibly allowing you to act before the enemy. For every 4 fighter levels you possess beyond 7th, you may grant this bonus to one additional ally. You may use this ability once per encounter per ally. You must be at least 7th level to choose this talent.
Others:
Mighty Warrior - As an immediate action, add your fighter level on Strength checks or combat maneuver checks, or to your combat maneuver defense for a number of rounds per day equal to your Constitution modifier. These rounds need not be consecutive. (I know it's better than the Barbarians, but I'd like to see his get better too).
Strong Willed - As a standard action, you can re-roll a failed Will save vs. charms, compulsions, or fear effects. You can only try this once per failed save. In addition, the duration of charms, compulsions, and fear effects you are subject to is reduced by half.
Bonus Feat - You may take any combat feat which you qualify for. (yes this would allow the fighter to concievably have what, 30 feats? Might be a bit unbalanced. Alternately, you may only choose this talent once.)
Giant Brawler - When grappling, you may treat yourself as one size category larger, gaining the appropriate special size modifier to grapple checks. You don't actually increase in size and you do damage equal to your actual size. You must be at least 11th level to choose this talent (This could also be a barbarian rage power too).
Now for a feat:
Stalwart Defense - When an opponent you threaten attempts a melee attack against an ally, you can give up one of your attacks of opportunity to attempt an aid another action to grant the ally attacked a bonus to AC equal to 1/2 your BAB against that attack. Also, when an adjacent ally to you is attacked, as an immediate action, you may switch places with the ally. The attack targets you instead. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and it does not count toward your (or your ally's) movement for the round.
Also, it would be neat to see alternate "class skill packages" to the ones in the core book. The ones in the book don't represent a noble warrior necessarily for instance.
Just a few ideas. No splitting mountains or leaps across 100 foot chasms (which you can already do BTW, just not with class abilities). Just more options. And I know they all suck because they can't compete with Gate and Wish.
Starting at 3rd level a fighter gains "fighter talents". He gains a new fighter talent every two levels after that (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th).
That's exactly what I've done, except I've made the talents a lot better than feats. Still no jumping over chasms, but the fighter is a match for a full caster at high levels.
That's exactly what I've done, except I've made the talents a lot better than feats. Still no jumping over chasms, but the fighter is a match for a full caster at high levels.Starting at 3rd level a fighter gains "fighter talents". He gains a new fighter talent every two levels after that (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th).
Always appreciated your insights into the melees Kirth since the playtest. I must say that I haven't looked at any of your ideas since the playtest, but I'll take a look now :).
Always appreciated your insights into the melees Kirth since the playtest. I must say that I haven't looked at any of your ideas since the playtest, but I'll take a look now :).
Thanks! I always get a lot out of your input as well.
I'm definitely in the 'why do fighters to suck?' group but I also agree that layering supernatural abilities or SLAs on a +1 BAB frame doesn't jive with people's concept that fighter = no magic.
I think the ultimate solution is to address the artificial splits between classes.
Currently you have the following groups within the core classes
Full Spellcasters
Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Sorceror
Half-Casters
Bard
Partial Casters
Ranger
Paladin
Skillmonkey
Rogue
Beaters
Fighter
Barbarian
Misc Class
Monk
A core problem is that there is an artificial divide between the Skill Monkey Class and the Beater class. It's there because there has always been a divide in D&D but realistically it's not need. By separating the non-magical classes into rigid roles they are forcing them to be one dimensional. The fighter fights, the rogue sneaks, etc. You can't give the fighter too many skill points and class skills because that violate niche protection of the Rogue etc.
So why keep that feature?
Part 1) Making the Fighter more flexible.
Core Premise: Let's replace the fighter/rogue/barbarian/monk with a new class called "Adventurer".
HP- d10 per level
BAB- +1 per level
Skills- 6 per level
Saves- Good Fort, Good (player choice), Poor (player choice)
Ability to use heavy armor and good weaponry
Each level the "adventurer" can choose from a package of class abilities and features. Want to be a heavy armor sword and board beater? Choose route A. Want to be a speedy striker? Choose B? Want to be the mystical warrior? Choose the monk inspired route. Want to be a jack of all trades? Mix and Match abilities to customize your PC.
Higher levels in "Adventurer" unlock better abilities. These abilities scale with character level.
Part 2) Fixing the Half-Caster and Nixing the Partial Caster.
Honestly these design spaces need to be combined. Further there are classes (Cleric) outside this group that get a lot of the benefits (High HP, Armor Use, Weapon Use) while giving up not much more than skillpoints.
As such let's introduce the "Gish" class.
HP- d8 per level
BAB- Middle Progression
Skills- 6 per level (I don't like penalizing people on skills)
Saves- Good Will, Good (player choice), Poor (player choice)
Spells - Choose type at 1st: Arcane, Clerical, Druidic. End a 6th level
Ability to wear medium armor and good weaponry
Bonus Feats and Abilities, note these abilities are generally not as good as those available to the adventurer or they are unlocked later because they are balanced against getting 6th level spells eventually.
Part 3) Fixing Full Casters
Now that the Gish class operates in the middle space we can revise the Quadratic Classes
Caster (Cleric, Druid, Wizard)
HP- d6 per level
BAB - Half Progression
Skills - 6 per level (like I said don't penalize skill use)
Saves- Good Will, Poor Ref and Fort
Spells- The Caster chooses a casting type at 1st level, you choose arcane you are a wizard, you choose druidic you are a druid, you choose cleric you are a white mage ...err cleric.
No armor at base and crap weaponry.
Bonus Feats and Class Abilities- Somewhat limited as your core ability is those badass spells. Some possibilities would include access to spells in other caster types lists. For example a White Mage might buy partial access to the Wizards list.
Note: You would have to re-balance the spell list quite a bit to make them functionally equivalent. Clerical Magic would be Heavy Heal, Heavy Buff, Light Blast, Medium Utility. Druidic would be Heavy Heal, Light Buff, Heavy Blast, Medium Utility. Arcane would be Light Heal, Medium Buff, Heavy Blast, Heavy Utility.
Step 4) Add in other types of magic abilities as needed. Like Psionics? Make a Psionic Caster and Psionic Half-Caster.
I think as long as you balance the upper level class abilities that the "adventurer" can unlock with the upper level spells the "caster" can unlock you'd have the basis of a good system.
I'm not trying to monopolize things, and I have posted this before, but Vuron, if you're interested in a system similar to what you're proposing, I made and used one in my last campaign.
See post 266 on page 6 in this thread for links.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advancedPlayersGuidePlaytest/general/fightersInTheAdvancedPlayersGuide&a mp;page=6#266
I meant to update it after the campaign but I never did. There are lots of things that need to be fixed. Weapon specialization, for instance, is redonkulously powerful. Also, some synergy needs to be fixed so that some combos aren't too powerful.
Anyways, the idea is, that there are 5 different abilities: Defining, Prestige, Enhancement, Talents, and Feats.
Defining abilities are those which stay with the character and improve, such as spellcasting. How many Defining abilities you get are determined by your class.
Prestige abilities are usually one big thing you can do, including per-day stuff. Sometimes they enhance more powerful defining abilties. Enhancements usually just enhance another ability, but can be traded for feats. Feats are obvious and traits are usually just for RP. All of these are determined by level for ALL characters. So, everybody gets the same Prestiges, Enhancements, Traits, and Feats.
Class determines Defining and other things like hit die and skills. Defining can also improve these like Skilled gets you more skills and skill sets, obviously. It was fun. It might help you come up with a system of your own.