I have a 3rd level Ulfen Barbarian that i've been playing. I've made him to be a tough guy, (Con 20) able to take anything thrown his way, and is always ready to get his meaty fists into a brawl. As part of his concept, he specializes in Grappling and Unarmed Combat, with a dash of Catch off Guard thrown in. Who needs big fancy weapons when your fists, or anything else nearby that's not stapled down, is handy enough?
Yes, I know fighting bare fisted is far from optimal. No, I don't want to play a monk... monks aren't the only people who get into fistfights in the world.
Now, the problem that i'm running into is that Unarmed combat and grappling just seems to be not just underwhelming, but drastically so. I was expecting to be cutting my potential short by going the unarmed route as a barbarian, (Hey, i'm going for fun factor, not Min/Maxing) but i'm finding in most encounters I rarely amount to anything more than a doorstop and damage soak. Instead of bieng just average to sub average, i'm bordering on useless. My standard damage range while raging is 6 to 8, with critical hits doing 12 to 16. As far as I can determine, this will stay pretty much the same all the way until i hit level 20, save for the minor rage stat increase along the way. Grappling is worse, as it takes 2 successive grapple checks, 1 opposed grapple check, and two rounds to deal 6 to 8 damage. The party Summoner has an Eidalon that does 15-20 damage on an average hit, attacks multiple times, and can take 70 damage before bieng unsummoned. I had a party member literally say that the summoner is a better tank than me. Ouch.
I don't want to be some ninja-spy-superhero who blows everyone away with my fists, I just want to be MEANINGFUL in combat. I've combed the rules and feats looking for ways to improve my combat capabilities with unarmed or grappling, and can't seem to find any. A way to increase fist damage to 1d6, tactics i'm unaware of, anything? What can I do to just keep pace with the party, or is my character pretty much just a novelty and is most useful as a warm body to prevent flanks?
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I have a Bbn PC in my group who took the "Bite" rage ability. This provides a free bite attack when grappling. He took the Impr Grap and Greater Grap so he now has the ability to grapple twice per round, doing damage twice with each grapple (the Bite atk from the Bbn and the grapple damage itself). With a huge Str modifier (he's a bugbear with a +4 racial Str bonus) he's able to put a world of hurt on anyone he grapples. He's currently an equivalent of 9th level (Bbn3/Mnk2/Sor1/DD3, IIRC) with a BAB of +6.
The important damage is not the base damage from his fists, but the huge Str bonus he gets (with all bonuses active, such as raging, he has a Str of 30!). Against single opponents they don't have a chance. In the last encounter he grappled a bulette and took it down single-handed. The bulette only gets a single attack (no full attack) so unless it has friends around, it can't hurt the Bbn much.
The next encounter will involve lots of smaller CR opponents and this might balance things out a bit as being involved in a grapple may be a huge disadvantage. We'll see...
Grappling is worse, as it takes 2 successive grapple checks, 1 opposed grapple check, and two rounds to deal 6 to 8 damage.
I thought opposed grapple checks are completely gone, all being rolled into CMD.
Performing a Combat Maneuver:
<snip>
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
And, for further detail:
GrappleAs a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
I made a monk that was grapple-master, and he rocks against anything his size, casters beware!
The bite attack sounds like a good idea.
I have a Bbn PC in my group who took the "Bite" rage ability. This provides a free bite attack when grappling. He took the Impr Grap and Greater Grap so he now has the ability to grapple twice per round, doing damage twice with each grapple (the Bite atk from the Bbn and the grapple damage itself). With a huge Str modifier (he's a bugbear with a +4 racial Str bonus) he's able to put a world of hurt on anyone he grapples. He's currently an equivalent of 9th level (Bbn3/Mnk2/Sor1/DD3, IIRC) with a BAB of +6.
The important damage is not the base damage from his fists, but the huge Str bonus he gets (with all bonuses active, such as raging, he has a Str of 30!). Against single opponents they don't have a chance. In the last encounter he grappled a bulette and took it down single-handed. The bulette only gets a single attack (no full attack) so unless it has friends around, it can't hurt the Bbn much.
The next encounter will involve lots of smaller CR opponents and this might balance things out a bit as being involved in a grapple may be a huge disadvantage. We'll see...
How big was that Bullete?
By the way, you could get the Improved Natural Attack if your DM allows, that would give you a boost. Aside from that, get 2-weapon fighting tree, Increase your Strength as much as you can and Power Attack.
The Dice for a barbarian is the least important thing, Strength is your main source of damage. Also an Enlarge Spell wouldn't hurt nor would Magic Fang and such, if u get your hands on those you will do just fine.
I don't think he's playing pathfinder. :)I thought opposed grapple checks are completely gone, all being rolled into CMD.Grappling is worse, as it takes 2 successive grapple checks, 1 opposed grapple check, and two rounds to deal 6 to 8 damage.
You got a point there. Nor is the follow up dude.
Also remember that taking a second class doesn't mean you have to change your character concept at all. I made an unarmed/grapple barbarian who was a "barbarian" in almost every way. However, he was barbarian(3) rogue(3). With Greater Grapple (and my bite attack), I could start doing decent sneak attack damage in a grapple whether or not I had allies around. I soloed the evil wizard boss without him being able to do a damn thing about it!
I justified it by saying that my fighting style was "extra brutal". I wasn't necessarily aiming for vital spots (like rogues usually do), I was just super vicious in where and how I attacked. My "Rogarian" was the most effective member of the team!
I suppose with the Greater Grapple feat and the Vital Strike feat tree you could grab them, then Vital Strike for your standard action.
I suppose with the Greater Grapple feat and the Vital Strike feat tree you could grab them, then Vital Strike for your standard action.
Odd much? But I think you are right.
The Ring of Tyr (I think) from the Faerûn setting allows you to deal 1d8 base unarmed damage for a mere 2,000 gp. My pugilists routinely invest in an item with similar properties.
Yes, I am playing Pathfinder. Sorry, my terminology (opposed grapple check, etc) is still 3.x, but I am talking about CMD checks. This is my understanding on how the checks go, please correct me if i'm wrong.
First round, I initiate grapple. Roll my CMB vs my enemies CMD. If successful, I grapple him.
On enemies turn, he (usually) attempts to break the grapple. He rolls his CMB vs my CMD. If he fails, I keep the grapple.
Second Round, I continue the grapple. Roll my CMB vs his CMD at +5. If successful, I continue the grapple and then choose to damage/move/pin/etc.
I hadn't even thought of dual classing as Barb/Rogue. That's a good idea, along with Vital Strike. These are all great suggestions! I'll grab my book and take a second look at things and see how I can tweak him up a bit.
As requested, here's the basic relevant stats of my character.
Level 3 Barbarian
Str 17 +3 (21 +5 rage)
Dex 16 +3
Con 20 +5 (24 +7 rage)
BAB 3
CMB 6 (8 Grapple) (8/10 raged)
CMD 19 (21 Grapple) (21/23 raged)
Fists +6, 1d3+3 (+8, 1d3+5 when raged)
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Catch off Guard
Animal Fury (rage power, +3 to hit, 1d4+2, +2 to grapple checks)
What sources are you allowed to draw from? There are lots of good unarmed feats in the cheliax book. Also WotC Sandstorm have some nice feats, like scorpion grasp, which allows a free grapple check on a successful unarmed strike. The collected book of experimental might also has some grapple and unarmed awesomness. From a feat that lets you enchant you fists to feats that let you use grapple checks to trip or throw opponents. Oriental adventures offers choke hold, which causes unconsciousness after you hold a pin for a couple rounds.
I'm playing a grapple monk, and with these resources I can't begin to find enough feat slots to take everything I want. My main concern is what I do when opponents have freedom of movement available.
I think any sourcebook is ok as long as it's reputable and not imbalanced or from some unheard of publisher.
I looked over the core book and realized that if my barbarian took 4 levels in rogue, Greater Improved Grapple, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital strike (granted we're talking high level now) he could potentially do 8d3 + 2d4 + 4d6 +14 damage in one round while grappling. (Two grapple attacks, two bite attacks.) Throw in one level of Monk to that (for 1d6 fist damage) and that goes up to 12d6 + 2d4 +14 damage. Actually the +str damage would be slightly higher by then due to rage strength increases at higher level too. Am i figuring this out correctly?
I'm assuming sneak attack damage does not apply to the Animal Fury rage power, correct? Otherwise that's 4d6 more damage if it does.
I'm now actually starting to see Grappling as viable build with high potential.
EDIT: I'm actually unsure as how exactly Greater Grapple and any of the Vital Strike feats stack. Would Vital Strike be applied to only one or both grapple attacks?
I think any sourcebook is ok as long as it's reputable and not imbalanced or from some unheard of publisher.
I looked over the core book and realized that if my barbarian took 4 levels in rogue, Greater Improved Grapple, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital strike (granted we're talking high level now) he could potentially do 8d3 + 2d4 + 4d6 +14 damage in one round while grappling. (Two grapple attacks, two bite attacks.) Throw in one level of Monk to that (for 1d6 fist damage) and that goes up to 12d6 + 2d4 +14 damage. Actually the +str damage would be slightly higher by then due to rage strength increases at higher level too. Am i figuring this out correctly?
I'm assuming sneak attack damage does not apply to the Animal Fury rage power, correct? Otherwise that's 4d6 more damage if it does.
I'm now actually starting to see Grappling as viable build with high potential.
EDIT: I'm actually unsure as how exactly Greater Grapple and any of the Vital Strike feats stack. Would Vital Strike be applied to only one or both grapple attacks?
Vital Strike aplies only if u spend one standard Action, so, only one.
As I said, I would go with Improved Natural attack, it increases your dice by one step. And would focus on the improvised weapons if possible, they are pretty good when u get the last feat. Aside from that, the things I stated earlier should help u out a lot.
I don't understand your math though, can u explain it to me?
Ok, i was applying Vital Strike twice in my original figures.
I've heard discussions before stating that unarmed attacks did not equate with natural weapons, and because of this spells and feats affecting natural weaponry did not affect unarmed attacks. However, I haven't been able to dig up any references in the books about this, can anyone confirm or deny this?
As for my math:
Assuming this is the second round of a sustained grapple
1d4+2 bite attack (Animal Fury Rage Ability) as part of action to maintain the grapple
1d3 (1d6 if monk splash or Natural Attack feat) +5 unarmed damage
3d3 (3d6 if monk/nat attk) Greater Vital Strike damage
2d6 sneak attack damage (3 levels of rogue)
second 1d4+2 bite attack as part of second action to maintain grapple due to Greater Grapple feat
1d3 (1d6 if monk/nat attk) +5 unarmed damage
2d6 sneak attack damage
Two bite attacks, two unarmed attacks total.
(There would be an additional 4d6 total if sneak attack affects the two bite attacks, since they are resolved seperately. Unsure on that one.)
That gives 5d3 + 2d4 + 4d6 + 14 damage. d3's become d6's if monk/nat attack is added in. (dropped the second vital strike)
Enchanting a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet will also help at later levels. Since your hand isn't considered to be 'occupied', you don't take a penalty to your grapple check, but would deal additional damage with the appropriate attack.
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How big was that Bullete?
Huge. The bbn had been enlarged to Large.
By the way, you could get the Improved Natural Attack if your DM allows, that would give you a boost.
I wouldn't allow INA except for non-core races as it comes entirely from the Bestiary and I consider the Bestiary off-limits to PCs.
The Dice for a barbarian is the least important thing, Strength is your main source of damage. Also an Enlarge Spell wouldn't hurt nor would Magic Fang and such, if u get your hands on those you will do just fine.
Consider the amulet of mighty fists as there's nothing preventing its use by a non-monk. My party's bbn has one that does elec/fire damage for its +2 bonus.
@Ravenot: how do you figure sneak attack damage from rogue levels during a grapple? I thought the rogue needed flanking or opponent-denied-their-Dex?
Found this
Discussion on Unarmed Attacks vs Natural Attacks
Sneak attacks...
You say "The rogue needed flanking or opponent-denied-their-dex"
Greater Grapple allows 2 grapple checks per round to move, harm, or pin your opponent.
First round you initiate grapple as a standard action. Assuming you did not move, and sucessfully grappled, you can then use your move action to pin the target.
When your opponent is pinned, he is considered flat footed, and thus denied his Dex bonus. You now deal sneak attack damage to him as long as you maintain the grapple.
Grab and Stab. The rogue's answer to Scry and Die.
I don't think Vital strike is a very good feat choice for your Barbarian grappler. You are using about the worst base die damage that there is, so why spend precious feats to give extra die?? In essence, each vital strike feat will add 2 damage to a vital strike attack. Just doesn't seem worth it to add a 1d3 damage per feat that you can only use once a round.
Best option is taking levels in fighter to get Weapon Spec and possibly some weapon training to add damage to your unarmed strikes.
Aside from that, Improved Crit would help some since most of your damage will be coming from Str, so being able to double up the Str damage twice as often could help.
Magic Gauntlets would help too.
I don't think Vital strike is a very good feat choice for your Barbarian grappler. You are using about the worst base die damage that there is, so why spend precious feats to give extra die?? In essence, each vital strike feat will add 2 damage to a vital strike attack. Just doesn't seem worth it to add a 1d3 damage per feat that you can only use once a round.
Best option is taking levels in fighter to get Weapon Spec and possibly some weapon training to add damage to your unarmed strikes.
Aside from that, Improved Crit would help some since most of your damage will be coming from Str, so being able to double up the Str damage twice as often could help.
Magic Gauntlets would help too.
Actually so far i'm toying with the idea of splashing rogue and monk with my barbarian now. If along the course of the adventure I splashed 3 levels of rogue and 4 of monk, he'd do 1d8 unarmed damage with 2d6 sneak attack (when appropriate). Vital Strike feat tree would then be adding d8's to all of my unarmed damage, and 4d8+2d6+STR damage for a single attack is nothing to sneeze at, not counting things like Greater Grapple and Animal Fury that can also get thrown in. I'm reluctant to go the fighter route because i'd have to go in really deep to get all of the weapon feats, when most of them only add +2 damage at a time.
I still can't find a clear ruling on sneak attack affecting the barbarians Animal Fury rage ability. Does anyone have any knowledge on this?
Actually so far i'm toying with the idea of splashing rogue and monk with my barbarian now. If along the course of the adventure I splashed 3 levels of rogue and 4 of monk, he'd do 1d8 unarmed damage with 2d6 sneak attack (when appropriate). Vital Strike feat tree would then be adding d8's to all of my unarmed damage, and 4d8+2d6+STR damage for a single attack is nothing to sneeze at, not counting things like Greater Grapple and Animal Fury that can also get thrown in. I'm reluctant to go the fighter route because i'd have to go in really deep to get all of the weapon feats, when most of them only add +2 damage at a time.
I still can't find a clear ruling on sneak attack affecting the barbarians Animal Fury rage ability. Does anyone have any knowledge on this?
Well if its d8 damage die that makes it a lot better than d3s.
How would sneak attack affect Animal Fury? Are you asking if you would be able to sneak attack with the bite attack? Yes, of course you can, as long as you satisfy the conditions for sneak attacking as normal (i.e. you are flanking the target or the target is denied its Dex to AC against your attack.)
Also note that if you mix barbarian levels with monk levels you will have some alignment issues to deal with, as barbarians must be nonlawful and monks must be lawful. It can be dealt with, but its tricky, and you'll have to forgo taking additional levels in one of the classes.
don't forget Monk's Robe pg 528 - good for anyone unarmed, giving you 1d8 base dmg (+1 AC too) - for core only games.
In the DPR olympics thread, I posted an unarmed fighter
And based upon page 459 of the PFPRGCR, I'd say you should be able to use Full Plate and a Monk's Robe at the same time.
Darn boards ate my post i made earlier today. Lets try this again...
I had forgotten about the Lawful monk restriction. I'm not willing to sacrafice character concept for stat boosts, so that's out.
Actually, it looks like I can make a decent build with only 3 levels of rogue and careful feat selection, and still stay close to your suggested build, angryscrub
lvl 1 Barb - Improved Unarmed Strike
lvl 1 Barb - Improved Grapple
lvl 2 Barb - Animal Fury
lvl 3 Barb - Catch Off Guard
lvl 3 Barb/1 Rogue - Sneak Attack 1d6, +1 STR
lvl 3 Barb/2 Rogue - Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Bleeding Attack (Rogue Talent)
lvl 3 Barb/3 Rogue - Sneak Attack 2d6
lvl 4 Barb/3 Rogue - Greater Grapple, Strength Surge
At level 7, while in a pinned grapple, the potential damage would be
*1d4+3 Bite
*+2d6 Sneak Attack
*1d3+6 Unarmed
*+2d6 Sneak Attack
*1d4+3 Second Bite
*+2d6 Sneak Attack
*1d3+6 Second Unarmed
*+2d6 Sneak Attack
*2 bleed damage.
2d3 +2d4 +4d6 +18 +2 bleed total.
28 damage minimum, 58 maximum. That's pretty impressive. From there I can go into the Vital Strike feats if I get my hands on Monk Robes, or perhaps take levels of fighter if I feel like it to add weapon specialization. Otherwise, I could keep on the Barbarian route and just add more Rage to it.
My only concern now, does this look like a legitimate tactic, or like a loophole?
Jyster, that's not too big of a problem with Vital Strike since in this situation most of the time it would be used as part of a standard grapple action.
I'm actually discussing houseruling stacking size penalties/bonuses to CMD rolls depending on the size difference with the other players. I know the CMD/CMB rolls already have a size modifier included in the calculation, but it's way too small for the purpose of grappling, it seems.
-32 four sizes smaller
-16 three sizes smaller
-8 two sizes smaller
-4 one size smaller
0
+4 one size bigger
+8 two sizes bigger
+16 three sizes bigger
+32 four sizes bigger
The important damage is not the base damage from his fists, but the huge Str bonus he gets (with all bonuses active, such as raging, he has a Str of 30!). Against single opponents they don't have a chance. In the last encounter he grappled a bulette and took it down single-handed. The bulette only gets a single attack (no full attack) so unless it has friends around, it can't hurt the Bbn much.
Not to derail this thread, but my understanding is that a grappled creature can still make a full attack in PFRPG.
Not to derail this thread, but my understanding is that a grappled creature can still make a full attack in PFRPG.
According to the grappled condition, p.567:
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a -4 penalty to dexterity. A grappled creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
So according to this, as long as it only required one hand to perform, a grappled opponent could make a full attack.