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On-topic, it will be interesting to see how one could design a Priest 'chassis' that would accomodate both a Holy build versus a Shadow build.You already have that to a certain extent with holy and unholy clerics.
To an extent, although the Shadow Priest would take Negative Energy Channeling to a whole new level, healing his party of damage equal to what he inflicts on a foe via some sort of continuous channel.
Spells like Acid Arrow are something of an exception, but D&D has never really gotten heavily into the Damage Over Time model of spell design. It should be neat to see how that would work.
I toyed around with converting some classes to Mutants & Masterminds, and it was completely strange trying to convert the damage over time mechanic to a system that uses damage rolls, instead of hit points.
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On-topic, it will be interesting to see how one could design a Priest 'chassis' that would accomodate both a Holy build versus a Shadow build.You already have that to a certain extent with holy and unholy clerics.To an extent, although the Shadow Priest would take Negative Energy Channeling to a whole new level, healing his party of damage equal to what he inflicts on a foe via some sort of continuous channel.
Spells like Acid Arrow are something of an exception, but D&D has never really gotten heavily into the Damage Over Time model of spell design. It should be neat to see how that would work.
I toyed around with converting some classes to Mutants & Masterminds, and it was completely strange trying to convert the damage over time mechanic to a system that uses damage rolls, instead of hit points.
Check out burning blood. That would be your example of a DOT, as would Holy Rain and its brothers.
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Check out burning blood. That would be your example of a DOT, as would Holy Rain and its brothers.I was sticking to core / OGL spells. I'm sure if I pillaged every non-core book and 3rd party project ever made, I could find a few spells that duplicate pretty much anything. :)
Well, we'd also have to see if they haven't already made the iconic shadow priest abilities into spells.
I could see a multiple round vampiric touch for example.
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On-topic, it will be interesting to see how one could design a Priest 'chassis' that would accomodate both a Holy build versus a Shadow build. Would they be different sub-classes? Could they be worked up as Alternate Class Features of a more generic base 'Priest?' Would the class, somewhat like the Monk or Ranger (archery vs. TWF), have three different 'standard paths' to follow, differentiated by Feat / Class Ability choices at certain 'break point' levels?There's really no reason to do that. The only reason it's possible in MMOs is to allow people a limited ability to change roles in a party by respeccing. In tabletop RPGs, your group is generally more fixed, and it strains credulity more to have such a dramatic focus shift.
Right, like the way a rangers fighting style dramatically shifts the focus of a rang-
Oh...
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You allow rangers to retrain their combat styles mid-career? Every tabletop RPG I've heard of that incorporated respecs either made them very gradual or had some sort of setting conceit attached to it.Right, like the way a rangers fighting style dramatically shifts the focus of a rang-
Oh...
Actually in Pathfinder you can select a feat from the archery tree at one level and then select a two weapon fighting feat the next time you get a fighting style feat.
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You allow rangers to retrain their combat styles mid-career? Every tabletop RPG I've heard of that incorporated respecs either made them very gradual or had some sort of setting conceit attached to it.Right, like the way a rangers fighting style dramatically shifts the focus of a rang-
Oh...
Perhaps if you read what you quoted, you'd see he was asking how Priest would be set up to follow "Shadow Spec/Holy Spec/Discipline Spec".
Like most MMO 'undead,' they lack many undead resistances, and are affected just fine by poisons, diseases, critical hits, etc. It would fit the mechanics to just give them some smallish resistances or save bonuses against the sorts of attacks that 'real' undead are generally immune to.
Their ability to self-heal by feeding on the bodies of the dead is fairly balanced in the MMO, where anyone can self-heal by eating food, but in a standard D&D setting, will have to be limited to X hit points / day or something (perhaps replacing the normal living creatures ability to restore HD / level hit points overnight?).
Mind you, they used to be counted as "undead", but this was removed due to them being especially vulnerable to specific effects that affect undead in PvP (Paladin/Priest effects mostly).
I don't think he is trying to make WoW MMO into a Tabletop, he is trying to make WoW RPG into Pathfinder RPG. So, there is absolutely no need for Respecs.
The books already out on WoW cover pretty much every class and variations thereoff. There is no need to implement the MMO system into the RPG, and almost no viable way to do it right.
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I don't think he is trying to make WoW MMO into a Tabletop, he is trying to make WoW RPG into Pathfinder RPG. So, there is absolutely no need for Respecs.
The books already out on WoW cover pretty much every class and variations thereoff. There is no need to implement the MMO system into the RPG, and almost no viable way to do it right.
This.
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High Elf Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution
Medium: High elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Base speed for a high elf is 30 feet.
Low-light Vision: High elves can see twice as far in poor lighting conditions as humans do.
Magic Addiction: High elves are addicted to th use of arcane magic. They must spend one hour each morning in meditation to resist the effects of the addiction or suffer a -1 pena;ty to effective caster level and a -2 penalty on all saving throws.
Spell-like Abilities: A high elf with an Intelligence score of 10 or higher can select four 0 level spells chosen from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Each spell can be cast once per day and the caster level is the high elves Hit Dice. Once selected these spells cannot be changed.
Strong Willed: High elves gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against Enchantment spells and effects.
Weapon Familiarity: High elves are proficent with longbows, longswords, short sword, and any weapon with the word Elven in it.
Languages: High elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. High elves with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Gnomish, Goblin, and Orcish.
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Half Orc Racial Traits
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom
Medium Size: Half orcs gain no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Basic Speed for a half orc is 30 feet.
Low-light Vision: Half orcs can see twice as far in poor lighting than a human can.
Fearless: Half orcs gain a +2 racial bonus to all saving throws to resist fear effects.
Orcish Blood: Half orcs are considered human and orcs for the purposes of effects related to race.
Languages: Half orcs begin play speaking Common and Orcish. Half orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from any languages except for secret languages.
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Dark Iron Dwarf Racial Traits
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intellignce, -2 Charisma
Medium Sized: Dark iron dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Slow but Steady: Dark iron dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but it is never modified by armor.
Darkvision: Dark iron dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Stonecraft: Dark iron dwarves gain a +2 racial bonus to Appraise and Craft checks related to stone or metal.
Stonecunning: Dark iron dwarves gain a +2 bonus to Perception checks to notice unusual stonework like secret doors or traps. Within 10 feet they get a roll regardless of whether they are actively looking or not.
Toughness: Dark iron dwarves gain a +2 bonus to saves against poison and Fire Resistance 1.
Weapon Familiarity: Dark iron dwarves are proficent with battleaxes, throwing hammers, warhammers, and any weapon with the word Dwarven in the name.
Languages: Dark iron dwarves begin play speaking Common and Dwarven. Dark iron dwarves with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Giant, Goblin, and Ignan.
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Ironforge Dwarf Traits
+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Medium Size: Ironforge dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties based on their size.
Slow and Steady: Base speed for an ironforged dwarf is 20 feet and is never modified by armor
Darkvision: Ironforge dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Stability: An ironforge dwarf gains a +4 bonus to their CMD to resist being bullrushed awhen standing on the ground.
Stonecunning: Ironforge dwarves gain a +2 bonus to Perception checks to notice unusual stonework like secret doors or traps. Within 10 feet they get a roll regardless of whether they are actively looking or not.
Stoneflesh: Once per day, for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution modifier, ironforge dwarves can gaina +2 bonus to Armor Class.
Weapon Familiarity: Ironforge dwarves are proficent with battleaxes, warhammers, and any weapon with the word Dwarven in the name.
Languages: Ironforge dwarves begin play speaking Common and Dwarven. Ironforge dwarves with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
Actually in Pathfinder you can select a feat from the archery tree at one level and then select a two weapon fighting feat the next time you get a fighting style feat.
Eh... not exactly.
Combat Style Feat:
"At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or twoweapon combat. The ranger’s expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
(...)
The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a ranger selects a combat style, it cannot be changed."
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Okay, now I got a question for this thread. What are the odds of seeing some of "named" weapons from WOW statted for Pathfinder? I'm curious because one of my players is curious as to how one would work up the sword "Ashbringer" for Pathfinder as a non-epic item?
Me on the other hand, I'm kind of curious about the Dreadnought Battlegear and how it'd look like in Pathfinder, would it just be another suit of plate or something more?
Okay, now I got a question for this thread. What are the odds of seeing some of "named" weapons from WOW statted for Pathfinder? I'm curious because one of my players is curious as to how one would work up the sword "Ashbringer" for Pathfinder as a non-epic item
Ooh.. you raise a very valid point.. and have given me ideas.
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Okay, now I got a question for this thread. What are the odds of seeing some of "named" weapons from WOW statted for Pathfinder? I'm curious because one of my players is curious as to how one would work up the sword "Ashbringer" for Pathfinder as a non-epic itemOoh.. you raise a very valid point.. and have given me ideas.
Are they...evil ideas? (does the "Doctor Evil" motion)
I did notice one thing though on the conversions so far, I didn't see anything racial for the Dranei (sp?) or have you just not posted your thoughts on them yet?
Need any help? I was just coming here to see if anyone wanted to see a WoW RPG conversion to pathfinder. I worked on a fan project with Adam Loyd that finally got semi-released after being in layout hell. The relevant thing can be found here.
Look at the writing credits and this forum name and you'll see what I worked on.
Also your wiki link doesn't seem to lead anywhere.
I would be happy to contribute, but i happen to have the World of Warcraft RPG books.
And with that, i don't really feel the need to adapt or convert, as they are excellent work, of amazing quality.
(Set, or anybody interested, you should check them out, especially the World of Warcraft RPG book and the Monster Guide)
To everyone, feel free to post your own work here as well. I may have gotten the ball rolling, but I am by no means an expert so feel free to jump in.
Soooooo how about a working wiki link so we can consolidate this?
Soooooo how about a working wiki link so we can consolidate this?
Be careful about copyrights.
I am not sure what is OGC in the Warcraft universe.
Soooooo how about a working wiki link so we can consolidate this?Be careful about copyrights.
I am not sure what is OGC in the Warcraft universe.
From Sword and Sorcery? Unlikely considering they seem to have fallen off the face of the earth.
Blizzard? Slightly more likely but not much unless they already gave the license to some other rpg publisher. They also tend to be less lawyer happy than most.
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I'm also still debating how to do the Forsaken without them overpowering the game.
You could always just make them Humanoid (Forsaken), and circumvent the entire problem that Undead PC's would have. I wouldn't worry about overpower but underpowered as undead.
Obviously they would get resistances to negative (shadow) energy, +2 vs stunning, paralysis, etc. . .
I'd say something like -2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, & + 2 Cha. (drop Con if to powerful).
For Shadow Priest, all Touch range negative energy/necromancy spells become Close Range. Add a few PF Necro related Arcane spells to the Spell List.
For Holy Priest, all cure and healing related spells (such as Remove Paalysis, Restoration, Cure Light Wounds, or Remove Fear) are now Close Ranged Touch spells. Add a few PF Wizard/Sorcerer Abjurations.
Both lose Armor Proficiency. I can't recall if in WoW RPG if they can wear armor or not, but I know they do not get Proficiency, (maybe Light?).
I'm also still debating how to do the Forsaken without them overpowering the game.You could always just make them Humanoid (Forsaken), and circumvent the entire problem that Undead PC's would have. I wouldn't worry about overpower but underpowered as undead.
Obviously they would get resistances to negative (shadow) energy, +2 vs stunning, paralysis, etc. . .
I'd say something like -2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, & + 2 Cha. (drop Con if to powerful).
For Shadow Priest, all Touch range negative energy/necromancy spells become Close Range. Add a few PF Necro related Arcane spells to the Spell List.
For Holy Priest, all cure and healing related spells (such as Remove Paalysis, Restoration, Cure Light Wounds, or Remove Fear) are now Close Ranged Touch spells. Add a few PF Wizard/Sorcerer Abjurations.
Both lose Armor Proficiency. I can't recall if in WoW RPG if they can wear armor or not, but I know they do not get Proficiency, (maybe Light?).
Being undead is somewhat part of the undead condition. That being said it's not so much underpowered in my expeirience as a different way of thinking. I'd drop the wisdom bonus. Some forsaken are certainly charismatic but a good number of them are absolutely crazy. Con bonuses seem a bit silly for a creature that is essentially a zombie with a brain so Strength would make more sense. The dex penalty is a keeper though movement would be rigid and clumsy.
If you're further worried about them being commanded you can simply give them "The Will of the Forsaken" and allow them a nice bonus based on character level.
Finally the original spell lists for priests in WoW RPG already covered those bases. There were never anything so spec specific as shadow and holy priest (you also forgot discipline priests)the difference was whether or not your alignment allowed you to do certain things.
You going from Undead having no Con score to giving it a bonus? Isn't that a little bit backwards?
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To everyone, feel free to post your own work here as well. I may have gotten the ball rolling, but I am by no means an expert so feel free to jump in.Soooooo how about a working wiki link so we can consolidate this?
Thw wiki link works just fine for me. It takes you to the World of Warcraft wiki where all that background material is.
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You going from Undead having no Con score to giving it a bonus? Isn't that a little bit backwards?
Made them Humanoid (Foresaken). Not D&D-wise, Undead. I did this because PF has really changed Undead. Plus, in a D&D style game, low Level Undead PC's are extremely fragile. A Cleric could fairly easily take out a Foresaken town in a day with Channel Energy. (Everything in a 60f diameter takes 1d6, followed by everything in a 60f diameter takes 1d6, followed by two or more of those, and move on to the next town.)
If you drop the Undead Type, they heal (magically) just like everyone else, can drown, can sufficate, can be affected by poison, disease, mind-affects, etc.
Thw wiki link works just fine for me. It takes you to the World of Warcraft wiki where all that background material is.To everyone, feel free to post your own work here as well. I may have gotten the ball rolling, but I am by no means an expert so feel free to jump in.Soooooo how about a working wiki link so we can consolidate this?
Ah, so you're just keeping all the converted stuff in this thread?
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I'm also still debating how to do the Forsaken without them overpowering the game.You could always just make them Humanoid (Forsaken), and circumvent the entire problem that Undead PC's would have. I wouldn't worry about overpower but underpowered as undead.
Obviously they would get resistances to negative (shadow) energy, +2 vs stunning, paralysis, etc. . .
I'd say something like -2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, & + 2 Cha. (drop Con if to powerful).
For Shadow Priest, all Touch range negative energy/necromancy spells become Close Range. Add a few PF Necro related Arcane spells to the Spell List.
For Holy Priest, all cure and healing related spells (such as Remove Paalysis, Restoration, Cure Light Wounds, or Remove Fear) are now Close Ranged Touch spells. Add a few PF Wizard/Sorcerer Abjurations.
Both lose Armor Proficiency. I can't recall if in WoW RPG if they can wear armor or not, but I know they do not get Proficiency, (maybe Light?).
Being undead is somewhat part of the undead condition. That being said it's not so much underpowered in my expeirience as a different way of thinking. I'd drop the wisdom bonus. Some forsaken are certainly charismatic but a good number of them are absolutely crazy. Con bonuses seem a bit silly for a creature that is essentially a zombie with a brain so Strength would make more sense. The dex penalty is a keeper though movement would be rigid and clumsy.
If you're further worried about them being commanded you can simply give them "The Will of the Forsaken" and allow them a nice bonus based on character level.
Finally the original spell lists for priests in WoW RPG already covered those bases. There were never anything so spec specific as shadow and holy priest (you also forgot discipline priests)the difference was whether or not your alignment allowed you to do certain things.
Yes, but they are not D&D style Undead Type. The stat are to show their pull toward Priest, & sorcerer/warlock. My experience in WoW shows tht, not Fighter types. Being crazy makes more sense to have a High Wisdow (and t lesser extent Charisma), as you have "seen" and understand more of the truth. Foresaken, (in play), are much more a caster race, though.
Str, I think is unbalancing. Makes sense for Taurun and Orcs, though. But maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by PathFinderizing WoW.|
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Ah, so you're just keeping all the converted stuff in this thread?Thw wiki link works just fine for me. It takes you to the World of Warcraft wiki where all that background material is.To everyone, feel free to post your own work here as well. I may have gotten the ball rolling, but I am by no means an expert so feel free to jump in.Soooooo how about a working wiki link so we can consolidate this?
That's right.
Keep in mind I'm pretty much pulling directly from the WoW RPG which, yes, makes them d&d style undead.
Consequently that's also the only way to really portray them accurately. They didn't suddenly comeback to life when free from the lich king the decision to make them be poisoned, diseased, and what not was a game balance decision made by blizzard that doesn't translate well to tabletop unless you do the same for the entire undead type (remember ghouls, zombies, and god forbid even skeletons can be poisoned in WoW).
As far as wisdom going one way or another that's debateable but I would still give them charisma over it to show the force of their personality and a lack of wisdom tends to show insanity (i.e. Derro).
Also you're essentially ignoring the basic formula of pathfinder races which either goes one positive stat or one negative stat, one positive mental stat and one positive physical stat.
In this case a rotting creature with no muscles at its joints are pretty rigid in their movement and since we don't have a Con score for anything past our fort saves than having it one away or the other is irrelevant.
Finally there is no such thing as a real pull towards caster or non-caster in pathfinder as each race can generally go one way or the other without losing anything. Any speak of forsaken pulling like that ignores the half a billion undead rogues running around ganking innocent gnomes for gnome skin boots everyday or the forsaken warriors or the soon to be forsaken hunters. It should be noted that WoW RPG puts no restrictions on what classes a character can be so I can also be a forsaken paladin as awful as that sounds.
I agree. Forsaken not being undead makes no sense to me.
YOu do realise that PF undead get Cha to HP now?
I'm suggesting making them undead, not Undead Type. That is it.
I DO realise that, and I don't see that as a problem.
Thing is, since you are making it specifically for Warcraft, and I do love those and would like to help, you could make every race balanced from them (since you are not making them undead type cause it's too powerful). More feats for humans, more strength for taurens, and stuff like that, it's really no big deal and would bring things up to par with the world you know?
Just for the record, on the WoW RPG they were undead and were WAY more powerful then they are now (no critical and all) and there was a feat that made u use cha instead of con for undead. So, what's the problem in making them undead type now?
YOu do realise that PF undead get Cha to HP now?
I'm suggesting making them undead, not Undead Type. That is it.
I DO realise that, and I don't see that as a problem.
Thing is, since you are making it specifically for Warcraft, and I do love those and would like to help, you could make every race balanced from them (since you are not making them undead type cause it's too powerful). More feats for humans, more strength for taurens, and stuff like that, it's really no big deal and would bring things up to par with the world you know?
Just for the record, on the WoW RPG they were undead and were WAY more powerful then they are now (no critical and all) and there was a feat that made u use cha instead of con for undead. So, what's the problem in making them undead type now?
He mentioned them being underpowered specifically because clerics would burn them over and over with channel energy.
To which I say is the exact same problem the living face when they go up against an evil cleric, except the forsaken has an advantage in this case.
Also keep in mind that this is assuming we're een using the cleric from pathfinder. The WoW RPG didn't t used a Healer based class and the Priest path so we'd have to convert it to give it channel energy and not turn/command undead for it to be relevant.
I don't think conversion of the classes is necessary. I think the PF ones work pretty well in Wow.
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Uh, you know they had a D20 WoW book, right? It was pretty darn close to pathfinder to. I should know, I've spent way to much time and money collecting them all.
I have the pdf, I could copy paste the stats. It's supposed to be the offical stats; the staff of blizzard used to play Warcraft as a D&D game before it was a video game. Cool stuff.
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Here, here are the Forsaken stats:
Forsaken
Racial
Traits • +2 Strength, –2 Agility.
Undeath grants physical
power but dulls refl exes.
Becoming a Forsaken
Becoming a Forsaken is a diffi cult process. The
undead plague must kill you, you must rise as a
being that remembers its past, and fi nally you must
escape the Lich King’s control. These events do not
happen often, but often enough that the Forsaken
exist as a viable race. Characters who begin the
campaign as Forsaken are assumed to have been
high elves or humans who underwent this process.
A character can become a Forsaken later in her
career. For these characters, see the Forsaken template
in the Manual of Monsters. Note that, thus far, only
humans and high elves have become Forsaken.
• Medium: As Medium creatures,
Forsaken have no special bonuses or
penalties due to their size.
• Forsaken base land speed is 30
feet.
• Darkvision: Forsaken can see in
the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is
black and white only, but it is otherwise
like normal sight. Forsaken can function
just fi ne with no light at all.
• Undead: Forsaken are undead rather than
humanoids. This provides a Forsaken with numerous
undead traits:
— No Stamina score. Forsaken do not possess Stamina
scores and gain no bonus hit points per Hit Die.
— Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms,
compulsions, phantasms, patterns and morale effects).
— Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis,
stunning, disease and death effects.
— Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage,
ability drain or energy drain. Immune to damage to their
physical ability scores (Strength and Agility), as well as
to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
— Negative energy (such as from a death coil spell)
heals Forsaken, while positive energy hurts them.
— Forsaken do not heal naturally.
— Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save
(unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
— Uses her Charisma modifi er for Concentration
checks.
— Not at risk of death from massive damage. Unlike
other undead, a Forsaken is not destroyed when reduced
to 0 hit points or less. Instead, at 0 hit points a Forsaken
is disabled. She can perform only one move action or
standard action each round but does not risk further
damage from strenuous activity. Between –1 and –9 hit
points, the Forsaken is down. She is unconscious and
cannot act, but she does not risk further damage (unless
her enemies attack her or some other unfortunate event
befalls her). At –10 hit points, the Forsaken is destroyed.
— Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or
abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect
Forsaken. These spells return a destroyed Forsaken to
her undead life; the Scourge’s curse makes it virtually
impossible to bring a Forsaken back to life as the
creature she was before she died. Only wish or miracle
can accomplish that.
— Forsaken do not breathe, eat or sleep. Forsaken
spellcasters still need 8 hours uninterrupted rest before
preparing their spells (see Chapter 15: Spellcasting).
• Automatic Language: Common.
• Bonus Languages: Goblin, Low Common, Orc and
Thalassian. Forsaken learn the languages of their enemies
and their allies (who may soon become their enemies).
• Racial Levels: Unlike humans and some other races,
Forsaken can take a few levels in “Forsaken” as a class to
develop their racial qualities more fully.
• Favored Class: Warrior. A multiclass Forsaken’s
warrior class does not count when determining whether
she suffers an experience point penalty for multiclassing
(see Chapter 3: Classes, “Multiclass Characters,” XP for
Multiclass Characters).
And then they get to take three levels of a 'Forsaken' class, if you want them to be more Forsaken-ey.
I don't think conversion of the classes is necessary. I think the PF ones work pretty well in Wow.
No tinkers.
Also mages work WAY different than how PF does them. There are no sorcerers for one, and for two they have broader specializations than favored schools (though necromancy can remain pretty much the same without any changes).
Also druids, priests, and shamans are all paths to the healer class. You'd have ot make some big changes to the cleric class particulary in the domains department to fit that.
Uh, you know they had a D20 WoW book, right? It was pretty darn close to pathfinder to. I should know, I've spent way to much time and money collecting them all.
I think most everyone here is aware. I have them all sitting right next to me, even the older 1st edition ones.
EDIT: Heck I even got some of my books autographed by Satyr at Dragoncon.
I agree we would have to make some NEW classes, but not mingle with the ones already there. Maybe some minor changes to wiz and cleric, but that's pretty much it.
I agree we would have to make some NEW classes, but not mingle with the ones already there. Maybe some minor changes to wiz and cleric, but that's pretty much it.
Also being a bard is a good way to get your face kicked in by an orc whose just not having it.