I just scanned the player's guide and the Guide to Korvosa but I couldn't find anything. are there any laws mentioned which prohibit weapons of some kind - at least in the public? I would presume that a city with such strict laws as Korvosa would at least ban the most dangerous/obviuos/military weapons from its streets. To be armed in your everyday life might be normal for kaer maga or some frontier places in the wilderness - but in a big civilized city? I don't know. If I had not overlooked something - any suggestions on this topic?
I just scanned the player's guide and the Guide to Korvosa but I couldn't find anything. are there any laws mentioned which prohibit weapons of some kind - at least in the public? I would presume that a city with such strict laws as Korvosa would at least ban the most dangerous/obviuos/military weapons from its streets. To be armed in your everyday life might be normal for kaer maga or some frontier places in the wilderness - but in a big civilized city? I don't know. If I had not overlooked something - any suggestions on this topic?
Well, keep in mind that while Korvosa is a large urban city, it's still in the middle of that large frontier known as Varisia. So ownership of weapons could be quite common. Besides, only in our modern backwards way of thinking does restriction of the ownership of arms by the citizenry qualify as "civilized".
It could very well be that a Lawful Neutral (currently) society with it's own Korvosa City Charter would recognize a persons right to arm and defend themselves and their property. It would only be when an actual crime was committed with said weapon that the law would intervene (assault, vandalism, etc.)
Now let's say hypothetically that somehow Korvosa came under the rule of a Lawful Evil tyrant. (Far fetched I know, but this is all hypothetical!) Then you would probably see new weapon laws passed to disarm the citizenry to the highest degree.
Restrictions on the right to carry your arms with you outside your own residence or property. Ownership of said arms would likely require registration of some sort. Anyone found guilty of a felony or various misdemeanors would face the possibility of losing their license to carry or own arms of any sort. Those are the sort of things you might expect.
As stated, Korvosa is in a dangerous frontier. Also, with wizards capable of throwing around fireballs, Johnny Slashy-Sword is less of a concern.
alright, but at least the ban on martial or heavy weapons would ease the job of the guards and marines to enforce the law. being the guys with the best equipment on the spot would improve their chances to break any resistance. and wspatterson you are right but I take it for granted that there are bans on dangerous spells as well. I think no city would would allow that any Tom, Dick or Harry casts fireballs in the street. and korvosa is a strictly lawful city. a non existing regulation of such major issues like weapons and sorcery would be characteristic for a chaotic city with or for a city with a weak government but Korvosa is neither one this. Don't get me wrong: only that there are laws does not mean that everybody abides by them, especially not the gangland. but this is a totally different point - and makes life in a city like Korvosa not exactly easy.
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alright, but at least the ban on martial or heavy weapons would ease the job of the guards and marines to enforce the law. being the guys with the best equipment on the spot would improve their chances to break any resistance. and wspatterson you are right but I take it for granted that there are bans on dangerous spells as well. I think no city would would allow that any Tom, Dick or Harry casts fireballs in the street. and korvosa is a strictly lawful city. a non existing regulation of such major issues like weapons and sorcery would be characteristic for a chaotic city with or for a city with a weak government but Korvosa is neither one this. Don't get me wrong: only that there are laws does not mean that everybody abides by them, especially not the gangland. but this is a totally different point - and makes life in a city like Korvosa not exactly easy.
The difference being that while a city might restrict the use of certain spells, they can't really control what the caster is capable of knowing. Saying that a fighter can't carry his bastard sword in the city would be like saying that the wizard must be finger-shackled when out in public.
Also remember in Korvosa there are bands of Imps, and other dangerous critters, loose in the city. The citizenry most likely needs to be allowed the opportunity to carry a means of defending themselves from Imps, whose DR would, for the most part, necessitate a larger weapon.
Graywulfe
alright, but at least the ban on martial or heavy weapons would ease the job of the guards and marines to enforce the law. being the guys with the best equipment on the spot would improve their chances to break any resistance. and wspatterson you are right but I take it for granted that there are bans on dangerous spells as well. I think no city would would allow that any Tom, Dick or Harry casts fireballs in the street. and korvosa is a strictly lawful city. a non existing regulation of such major issues like weapons and sorcery would be characteristic for a chaotic city with or for a city with a weak government but Korvosa is neither one this. Don't get me wrong: only that there are laws does not mean that everybody abides by them, especially not the gangland. but this is a totally different point - and makes life in a city like Korvosa not exactly easy.The difference being that while a city might restrict the use of certain spells, they can't really control what the caster is capable of knowing. Saying that a fighter can't carry his bastard sword in the city would be like saying that the wizard must be finger-shackled when out in public.
Also remember in Korvosa there are bands of Imps, and other dangerous critters, loose in the city. The citizenry most likely needs to be allowed the opportunity to carry a means of defending themselves from Imps, whose DR would, for the most part, necessitate a larger weapon.
Graywulfe
As stated, Korvosa is not really a city where telling people they can't carry martial weapons is going to work well. It's actually a pretty dangerous city. The laws come in by saying "don't go all Mc-Slashy on random citizens". Allowing people to carry weapons isn't a characteristic of a chaotic city. Not restricting when these weapons can be used would be a characteristic of a chaotic city.
as I mentioned before, I am not taking the floor for a total ban on weapons, but in my opnion a law against martial/heavy weapons is reasonable. and, graywulfe, just because you cant control arcane knowledge - and the possible misuse of it - as good as you can control arms does not mean you let go of the one thing you can at least control a bit. so I dont buy your shlashing-finger-argument.
as I mentioned before, I am not taking the floor for a total ban on weapons, but in my opnion a law against martial/heavy weapons is reasonable. and, graywulfe, just because you cant control arcane knowledge - and the possible misuse of it - as good as you can control arms does not mean you let go of the one thing you can at least control a bit. so I dont buy your shlashing-finger-argument.
I think we've passed the actually making suggestions portion of this discussion. :-)
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Pretty sure it was a previous Paizo adventure path--maybe Diamond Lake, the Free City, or Alhaster from "Age of Worms"?--in which laws required weapons to be 'peace bonded.' As I remember it, weapons had to be sheathed and tied to the sheathe with a leather cord. Don't recall the exact game effects, but did make it more difficult to draw a weapon (standard or full-round action). You could use a similar mechanic if you'd like.
Hope that helps if you're looking to add this sort of restriction on certain weapons in Korvosa!
Golbez57, thanks for the information! that's really a good idea!
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as I mentioned before, I am not taking the floor for a total ban on weapons, but in my opinion a law against martial/heavy weapons is reasonable. and, graywulfe, just because you cant control arcane knowledge - and the possible misuse of it - as good as you can control arms does not mean you let go of the one thing you can at least control a bit. so I don't buy your shlashing-finger-argument.
In retrospect it was kind of a weak point. I still stand by the second part, that people would need to be allowed larger weapons to defend themselves from Imps and the like.
Also the lack of Barbarians with their large weapons doesn't fit my image of a fantasy city. That said I think we are a point to agree to disagree and run things in our game as we see fit.
Graywulfe
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Pretty sure it was a previous Paizo adventure path--maybe Diamond Lake, the Free City, or Alhaster from "Age of Worms"?--in which laws required weapons to be 'peace bonded.' As I remember it, weapons had to be sheathed and tied to the sheathe with a leather cord. Don't recall the exact game effects, but did make it more difficult to draw a weapon (standard or full-round action). You could use a similar mechanic if you'd like.
In Living Arcanis it took a full round if you cut through it. I think. I may have just been trying to get my sword out faster.
@graywulfe: no problems ;)
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Pretty sure it was a previous Paizo adventure path--maybe Diamond Lake, the Free City, or Alhaster from "Age of Worms"?--in which laws required weapons to be 'peace bonded.' As I remember it, weapons had to be sheathed and tied to the sheathe with a leather cord. Don't recall the exact game effects, but did make it more difficult to draw a weapon (standard or full-round action). You could use a similar mechanic if you'd like.
Hope that helps if you're looking to add this sort of restriction on certain weapons in Korvosa!
Actually, wasn't that in Speaker of Dreams?
as I mentioned before, I am not taking the floor for a total ban on weapons, but in my opinion a law against martial/heavy weapons is reasonable.
What purpose would it serve, to even have weapons peace-bonded? I see no purpose at all except to make your player's lives more difficult, specifically the martial classes who would never get to attack on the 1st round anymore. Also, if you're actually running the CotCT AP, there's little point behind walking the streets peace-bonded after the FIRST encounter, IMO.
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Yeah, that might very well have been it! I did play through that adventure back-in-the-day. Maybe I borrowed the idea for my Age of Worms campaign. It sometimes runs together, heh.
I think the idea of peace-bonding is interesting even if the status quo might quickly change... because that change emphasizes that Korvosa's anarchic state for awhile. Until the new power fully rises, in which case the right to bear arms might be eliminated altogether. Kind of reflects the state of affairs all the way through.
What purpose would it serve, to even have weapons peace-bonded? I see no purpose at all except to make your player's lives more difficult, specifically the martial classes who would never get to attack on the 1st round anymore.
Well, that's a very technically point of view. As for weapon laws I am not considering what will make life for my _players_ easier or more difficult, but what would make life _in korvosa_ more authentic. and as I see it a ban of martial weapons would fit - but perhaps that's an European perspective, not an US American.
As mentioned above, with Otyugh's, Imps, and those rubbery mean creatues lurking around, I don't see any issues with characters walking aroudn with their weapons. In fact any pretense of weapon control would go out the window anyways once the riots started.
The Korvosan guard gets involved with the PC's once the riots start so they become agents of the guard so it really makes no difference for them. Are you going to arrest the 5000 rioters in the city? After this point everyone is going to be carrying their favorite sword or axe just to make sure they can get to their shop safely.
I didn't bother with any kind of laws around weapons mainly for these reasons.
terok, I am speaking of martial weapons, and just because the riots will change something/everything it is no reason to think about how Korvosa could be before all hells break loose
terok, I am speaking of martial weapons, and just because the riots will change something/everything it is no reason to think about how Korvosa could be before all hells break loose
This threat really has turned into "Person A wants ideas on laws restricting weapons", Person B doesn't think there should be restrictions, Person A really wants them, Persons B & C really don't think there should be restrictions and cite reasons. And so on and so on.
As stated, the city is very dangerous, pretty much making it necessary to let the populace have their weapons. The party is actually hired on in at least a semi-official capacity by the Guard, making weapons restrictions kind of a moot point anyway.The idea that martial weapons are restricted has been brought up. What about crossbows? At least in the real world, crossbows were extremely dangerous. And bows? They count as martial weapons, but bows are also a hunter's weapons. Axes? Used for chopping wood. A hatchet is just as likely to kill you as a handaxe.
The best idea I've seen in this thread was the peace bonding one.
The riots were what I was getting at in my previous post, which start almost immediately after the very first encounter. The otyughs, imps, etc. are a given depending on the encounters you as a DM decide to use. I didn't even take into account that you are working for the Korvosan Guard pretty early on as well.(which could be altered to a different NPC contact) As I said, I just don't see the point behind making the player's lives unnecessarily difficult.
However if you plan on playing in Korvosa on side-treks outside of the AP and BEFORE the riots, then I don't see a problem with that I guess. *shrug* My suggestion is that you inform your party of this "house ruled law" prior to character creation, being as most characters will be FROM Korvosa and will have a basic understanding of it's laws and/or how to break them.
What I see likely to happen, if you have experienced players or ROLL-players, they're just going to "pretend" things are peace-bonded or not bother at all despite the laws. The other likely scenario, is the party gimps themselves while out in public, using quarterstaves, greatclubs, etc.
Exeter I have a few questions concerning your proposal.
1) Have you taken into consideration the 10 crimes and punishment listed in the Guide to Korvosa? Please note that they have robbery and armed robbery listed.
2) I am not sure how limiting martial and exotic weapons will discourage johnny slasher, as he will likely use a dagger as it is easier to hide.
3) What about merchant guards, church guards, etc.. are they too banned from carrying martial weapons?
4) Speaking of churches, do you really thing that the Church of Sarenrae would appreciate being told that none of their priests can carry their God's favorite weapon? Or most of the other churches as well?
5) What about armor? is it too controlled or are people allowed to walk around in full plate, chainmail, etc...?
6) As it is a dangerous world and city (take a look at the top rooftop menaces and underground menaces), so you are expecting the citizens to be able to deal with chokers, imps, stirges, goblins and wererats with simple weapons?
7) How is hunting and hunters handled with their bows? And how is it justified for it to be legal to walk around with a loaded crossbow, but illegal to have a bow?
8) How does the Korvosan Guard tell the difference between a double bladed lumber axe and a battleaxe? Or a sledge hammer and a war hammer? etc..
9) How is grass and hay cut in Korvosa, as it is my understanding that a scythe was/is used, but your rule would have it illegal.
Would it not be simpler to follow the lead of the 10 crimes and punishment article and simply have increased penalties for committing crimes with weapons?
Hi Mistwalker,
thanks for your questions, and here come the answers:
1)absolutely. To be honest this list startetd my whole thoughts. For me, Korvosa is fraught withs law, rules, ans punishments. So I was thinking it would be all talen for granted that such an important issue like the waearing of weapons would be regulated as well. So this is, what I have in mind: It is forbidden to hide weapons. Every weapon you wear in public must be visible. The common people is only allowed to wear simple, one-handed weapons. Tools, like lumber axes, hunting bows and so on are excluded from this rule as long as you need them to do your job. As there are no fields in Korvosa there is no need to enter the city with a scythe. Therefore skythes are forbidden. For this rule heavy crossbows and morningstars count not as a simple weapon (as Korvosa does not need to categorize weapons the way the game does). Handaxes, short swords, rapiers and kurkris do count as simple weapons. The enchantment of weapons is only allowed to a certain amount of magic power (in gaming terms this is +2) For the common people it is only allwoed to wear light armor, and for this rule chain mails do not count as light armor. Shields are forbidden. Every Shoanti weapon is forbidden. To commit a crime with a forbidden weapons is an aggravating circumstance. To commit a crime with Shoanti weapon is an even more aggravating circumstace.
2)That might be right. But to discourage little cutthroats does not need to be the one and only intention. But to maintain the civil order, to diminish the danger (or the threats) of bloody riots and civil disorder (I know whishing and realilty...), to emphasize the gap between the classes (see below) and much more.
3)No. Every Kovorsan merchant has a license and this license include the right to hire guards in relation to his revenues. And these guys have the right to wear weapons when they are on duty. Every foreign merchant who wants to enter the city with armed forces has to pay for this right. I know these rules and some that will come demand a huge bureaucracy. But Korvosa has lots of administrations staff and I think it fits to the picture of strictly, but sometimes irrational city with harsh laws and the intention to regulate as much aspects of daily life as possible. For church guards aplies the same...
4)… and clerics, paladins and priests are allowed to wear their god's weapon of choice. Furthermore the members of the noble houses, religious and political dignitaries, members of orders and so on are excluded from any weapon restriction. As well as everybody who can afford to pay a fee: There is the possibility to purchase the right to wear other weapons then the allowed ones. This is not only a welcome source of income but a way to record data of those who want to roam the streets in full combat gear (and therefore is a potential threat to the public). For each rule you have to pay an extra fee: melee and range weapons (doubled if they are magic) and armor. It is not possible to get an licence for Shoanti weapons.
5)See number 1
6)Yes and no. At first for me the Shingles are some kind of lawless space – it is a slum the guards are not to eager to patrol in. And where there is no enforcer there is no punishment... But: I know Korvosa is not as peacefully as you would wish. But the mainstream commoner (the potter, the carpenter, the marketer...) is anyway not capable of using the most weapons. So his weapon of choice would be a club, a dagger, his tools or something the like – all weapon laws aside.
7)Well, I presume that the number of hunter in Korvosa is very low: You hunt in forest, you hunt on plains and even if you can hunt around Korvosa – the most people in non-industrialized countries live where they work, and the phenomen of commuters is unknown to them. So I do not see a problem there. For crossbows/bows see 1.
8)Well I have never seen a double bladed lumber axe – so in this case it would not be very difficult to tell difference... Furthermore some weapons might resemble tools as they are developed from them. But their design is a different one. I would say you can tell at first glance wether a hammer is sledge hammer or a war hammer: the first one looks like a tool, and the second … well is designed as a weapons. With ornaments and so on. But if there is a scope of interpretation the checking guard can rely on his experience – and the bribe from the person he checks ;)
9)Same as for hunters: hay is cut outside of the city, the majotity of grain is sold to mills (which are outside the city), and even if you want to sell your grapes, fruits, your hay or your grain in Korovosa you do not need to bring your scythe along
Hope that helps or makes things clearer,
Exeter
It would not be unreasonable for some measure of weapons control to be required in any city, including spellcasters. It doesn't have to include banning weapons, although I can see how certain "weapons of war" like heavy crossbows and great swords would be banned from carrying in city limits. Taxation would probably be the ideal solution. So if someone entered Korvosa with a dagger or quarterstaff, no biggie. These weapons are more often considered tools or walking sticks. There may be a few coppers tax on anyone entering with "hunters" weapons. All the way up to a gold piece per weapon if someone were carrying a bastard sword or greatsword or the like.
The same could be done for spellcasters carrying wands or the like, if a spellcaster were posted at the gates with the town guard or on patrol. They would be able to charge a small tax on magic items. In fact, if the town had an established Mages Guild, visiting spellcasters might need to join or get a temporary pass (a few more coins) to cast spells. It would allow the authorities to keep better tabs on potential troublemakers. Since casting spells without a license might result in banishment from the city, it would be a strong incentive to comply OR give the guards an excuse to bounce anyone who tried to sneak in.
Peacebonded weapons have been used in other campaign settings to great effect. It lets a character wear his gear but not draw them hastily. It would be a great use of the "Rope Use" type skill. A PC makes a check to tie an elaborate looking knot that can be freed in a single pull, allowing it to be drawn normally. A higher DC lets the PC use the Quick Draw feat.
The first idea lets you milk a few gold from the party, and serves as a legitimate way for the city to make money to pay for the guards and walls. Yes, it is more useful for annoying a low-level party. The second rewards a PC for skill use.
Just how I've handled things in some of my games.
I just scanned the player's guide and the Guide to Korvosa but I couldn't find anything. are there any laws mentioned which prohibit weapons of some kind - at least in the public? I would presume that a city with such strict laws as Korvosa would at least ban the most dangerous/obviuos/military weapons from its streets. To be armed in your everyday life might be normal for kaer maga or some frontier places in the wilderness - but in a big civilized city? I don't know. If I had not overlooked something - any suggestions on this topic?
*aside* HA! This post was eaten but I copied it before posting for the very first time./*aside*
There are multiple reasons way Korvosa probably wouldn't put much of a restriction on weaponsL
1) As a VERY LN city Korvosa cares about the city of Korvosa and not so much the average citizen. Even the strict laws are all about making money for Korvosa (hence the creation of Magnimar). You can carry that weapon (which they hope you bought in Korvosa), but if you use it they'll be a price to pay. Just like there would be laws against unlawful spell casting, there'd also be laws against the unlawful USE of weapons.
2) There are a lot of dangerous things living in Korvosa, dangers we can't even comprehend in modern urban living. Chokers, Otyughs, Imps, even the occasional wandering undead, people need to protect themselves.
3) Korvosa is a frontier city and a BIG source of income for Korvosa is all of the Thassilonian artifacts adventurers bring in from the wilderness. Adventurers are known to be a well armed bunch, who are very attached to their weapons. Any restrictions might cause them to take their finds to Magnimar instead. Korvosa does not like losing income to Magnimar.
Now if you still feel there should be laws against weapons then go with Korvosa's slightly greedy nature. Instead of banning them make a mandatory fine everytime something bigger than a dagger is drawn in a public place. That way people get to keep their weapons, which makes them happy, and Korvosa gets to make more money, which makes it happy.
Picture the guard showing up just after the party has killed a rougue Otyugh.
PC - We killed this beast that was attacking the citizens.
Guard - We thank you for that. Now, you each owe 5 gp's.
PC - What? Why?
Guard - You drew weapons in a public place. Mandatory 5 gp fine. We thank you for your actions but the law is the law.
PC - But... But...
Guard - Hey, I don't make the laws, I just enforce them. If you have a problem take it up with the Queen.
And maybe if the weapon is also a tool needed for work (axe, scythe, sickle, etc...) the players can by a weekly permit which will allow them to have the item drawn without fine. Korvosa gets to make more money.
And maybe improvised weapons (chairs, crowbars, etc...) aren't affected at all. You may see more people taking the Improvised Weapon feat chain.
Either way Monks are laughing.
There would also be some nobles or guild heads that had the power to hire guards or agents and issue said agents an exemption on these types of fines. Makes for a nice consideration when the PCs are looking for work.