Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out what a "meme" is. I've tried wikipedia and dictionaries, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the word itself. Meme's are going to be an important thing in my upcoming campaign, but I'm not sure they're what I thought they were.
I tend to learn best through examples, so I was wondering if someone could help to point out a specific meme and help me understand why its a meme.
What I know so far is they're imitable things that pass from generation to generation. Am I right in assuming that "Leeroy Jenkins" or the expression "An eye for an eye" is an appropriate meme? Also, what constitutes something not being a meme? Would the act of gathering food be a meme, since its passed from generation to generation and is imitable? I don't think the latter is true, but I don't really have an understanding of why its not (forgive me, I'm a youngster).
I started reading as much as a could on it, but I came upon something called "The Selfish Gene" and evolutionary concepts and got in over my head. Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I've been trying to figure this out for weeks now.
Thanks!
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Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out what a "meme" is. I've tried wikipedia and dictionaries, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the word itself. Meme's are going to be an important thing in my upcoming campaign, but I'm not sure they're what I thought they were.
I tend to learn best through examples, so I was wondering if someone could help to point out a specific meme and help me understand why its a meme.
What I know so far is they're imitable things that pass from generation to generation. Am I right in assuming that "Leeroy Jenkins" or the expression "An eye for an eye" is an appropriate meme? Also, what constitutes something not being a meme? Would the act of gathering food be a meme, since its passed from generation to generation and is imitable? I don't think the latter is true, but I don't really have an understanding of why its not (forgive me, I'm a youngster).
I started reading as much as a could on it, but I came upon something called "The Selfish Gene" and evolutionary concepts and got in over my head. Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I've been trying to figure this out for weeks now.
Thanks!
A meme is the unit of cultural evolution. It's applying the concepts of biological evolution (genes changing via mutation and those that produce beneficial changes propogating through the population) and applying them to culture.
One example often cited is religion. Another, simpler and more basic meme example, is a catchy piece of music. It gets played a lot and once it's played, it gets stuck in your head thus ensuring its 'survival'.
Please note that I'm not a social scientist and am not overly sure I understand the details of the theory and what I posted is a high level view of my understanding of a meme.
How were you planning on having them influence your campaign?
A meme is the colloquial term is "something that is imitated and repeated as it is passed along". Usually it's an action or phrase. Catchphrases, certain types of lingo, common slang, repetitive internet messages (familiar ones are cats, Cake is a Lie, Leeroy Jenkins, etc.) and the like are some examples.
This page explains it pretty well IMO and provides lots of examples. Don't get lost. :)
<Culture Club> Do you really want to hurt meme? Do you really want to make meme cry? </Culture Club>
A meme is the unit of cultural evolution. It's applying the concepts of biological evolution (genes changing via mutation and those that produce beneficial changes propogating through the population) and applying them to culture.One example often cited is religion. Another, simpler and more basic meme example, is a catchy piece of music. It gets played a lot and once it's played, it gets stuck in your head thus ensuring its 'survival'.
Please note that I'm not a social scientist and am not overly sure I understand the details of the theory and what I posted is a high level view of my understanding of a meme.
How were you planning on having them influence your campaign?
My campaign world's gods are going to be born from societal memes. I was getting tired of having so many of my ideas follow the "gods created the people" formula, and wanted to basically go backwards: "people created the gods".
Perhaps "god" isn't the word I should be using, but my own lack of understand with deific figures in the real world has sort of managed to lead me astray when it comes to creating religions in my world, which I feel are a necessary concept to embody in some way. Since my world is a very Jungian based dream world (the plane dreams people into existence, magic is explained through people attaining lucidity and thus control over their dreamlike environment, history is very erratic and sages struggle to organize it in a coherent way, much like you would a dream you just awoke from, etc.), I wanted to strive for something different with the gods and religion in general.
Someone here pointed me in the direction of memes, and I took it and ran with it. Unfortunately, I thought my unknowingly vague understanding of them would suffice, but when I got down to it, I was lost. So here I am again, looking for a little advice.
Thanks for the quick responses, folks! I didn't think to compare it to biological evolution, but that makes a lot of sense to me. I think that in general, I don't really have an understanding of how abstract a meme can get.
In spanish Meme is a corny, childish word used for "sleep". No kidding :P
Although my snark was tongue in cheek by taking a bit far what Paul said, a Jungian dream world campaign does sound intriguging; especially when you're working from the direction of the men creating the gods. I'd definitely be curious as to how that unfolds if you plan to keep a public journal or something.
Good luck! May the best meme win. ;)
A meme is the colloquial term is "something that is imitated and repeated as it is passed along". Usually it's an action or phrase. Catchphrases, certain types of lingo, common slang, repetitive internet messages (familiar ones are cats, Cake is a Lie, Leeroy Jenkins, etc.) and the like are some examples.
This page explains it pretty well IMO and provides lots of examples. Don't get lost. :)
Ho-ho! Don't get me started with that site, that's been known to suck me in for days at a time, and still leaves me with countless facets of information to further explore. Gotta say, I love it though :).
Actually, I'm surprised I haven't bothered looking for "meme" on there. This is actually very helpful, thank you!
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My campaign world's gods are going to be born from societal memes. I was getting tired of having so many of my ideas follow the "gods created the people" formula, and wanted to basically go backwards: "people created the gods".
Ever read the Terry Pratchett book "Small Gods" from the Discworld series? On the disc in general, gods are created and made more powerful by belief in them on behalf of mortals. Small Gods in particular focuses on religion and I think you'd quite like it, given what you're going for here.
Although my snark was tongue in cheek by taking a bit far what Paul said, a Jungian dream world campaign does sound intriguging; especially when you're working from the direction of the men creating the gods. I'd definitely be curious as to how that unfolds if you plan to keep a public journal or something.
Good luck! May the best meme win. ;)
Thanks! That truly does mean a lot to hear someone say that, I've been working at this thing for years now, and only managed to run two campaigns in it. I'm finally working towards getting the feel I'm really looking for it to give, which is, needless to say, exceedingly difficult. There's only so much "dreaminess" a campaign can have before it really gets wacky, so I struggle to balance some semblance of structure and reality with the innate dreaminess I want it to give. I try to make it very fantastical, you know, floating mountains and vanishing landscapes, but there's still dwarves and humans and elves to keep it at least somewhat "down to earth" (more for the benefit of my players than myself).
On that note, am I right in assuming the phrase "down to earth" would be a proper meme?
Ever read the Terry Pratchett book "Small Gods" from the Discworld series? On the disc in general, gods are created and made more powerful by belief in them on behalf of mortals. Small Gods in particular focuses on religion and I think you'd quite like it, given what you're going for here.
You know, countless people have recommended Terry Pratchett to me for some time now, and I never got around to reading anything of his (though I've heard great things). That would sound like something I'm interested in, I think I'll finally have to check him out.
I like to think of a meme as a "thought virus" and thus the term "going viral" for most memes.
On that note, am I right in assuming the phrase "down to earth" would be a proper meme?
Think Rickrolling, lolcats, All Your Bases Are Belong To Us, Where's the Beef from an internet or social point of view.
But Paul's right - religion is one of the biggest examples. Freudian and Jungian psychological concepts have their own memes that some people can't manage to shake, but persists.
I like to think of a meme as a "thought virus" and thus the term "going viral" for most memes.
Or what Josh said.
I like to think of a meme as a "thought virus" and thus the term "going viral" for most memes.Or what Josh said.
That is actually very accurate. It appears, invades, dwells, replicates, multiplies, and spreads.
That is actually very accurate. It appears, invades, dwells, replicates, multiplies, and spreads.I like to think of a meme as a "thought virus" and thus the term "going viral" for most memes.Or what Josh said.
That's actually a pretty fascinating way to look at it... makes me think of some BBEG in my campaign who believes the party cleric to be spreading a "virus" across humanoid kind. Nifty.
That's actually a pretty fascinating way to look at it... makes me think of some BBEG in my campaign who believes the party cleric to be spreading a "virus" across humanoid kind. Nifty.
By Pelor, I think you got it! ;)
That's actually a pretty fascinating way to look at it... makes me think of some BBEG in my campaign who believes the party cleric to be spreading a "virus" across humanoid kind. Nifty.That is actually very accurate. It appears, invades, dwells, replicates, multiplies, and spreads.I like to think of a meme as a "thought virus" and thus the term "going viral" for most memes.Or what Josh said.
DOOOO EEEET!!
DOOOO EEEET!!That's actually a pretty fascinating way to look at it... makes me think of some BBEG in my campaign who believes the party cleric to be spreading a "virus" across humanoid kind. Nifty.That is actually very accurate. It appears, invades, dwells, replicates, multiplies, and spreads.I like to think of a meme as a "thought virus" and thus the term "going viral" for most memes.Or what Josh said.
Heheh, now if only one of them was actually PLAYING a cleric, we'd be all set. I'll have to set it aside for another one ;).
Actually, it reminds me of when, in the first Matrix, Agent Smith is talking to Morpheus about how humans themselves are a virus. I always loved that scene. Then again, I've always had a soft spot for Hugo Weaving...
He'd totally be that villain of mine if I wouldn't feel so corny when he went up to the party and said "Ah, Mr. Clericson..."
He'd totally be that villain of mine if I wouldn't feel so corny when he went up to the party and said "Ah, Mr. Clericson..."
In a meme based campaign world that slight corniness actually works for you. :)
You know, countless people have recommended Terry Pratchett to me for some time now, and I never got around to reading anything of his (though I've heard great things). That would sound like something I'm interested in, I think I'll finally have to check him out.
Ever read the Terry Pratchett book "Small Gods" from the Discworld series? On the disc in general, gods are created and made more powerful by belief in them on behalf of mortals. Small Gods in particular focuses on religion and I think you'd quite like it, given what you're going for here.
Please do this. Pratchett is perhaps the best fantasy author since Tolkien and funnier that Douglas Adams (of galactic hitchhiker fame) and the entire crew of Monty Python put together.
You know, countless people have recommended Terry Pratchett to me for some time now, and I never got around to reading anything of his (though I've heard great things). That would sound like something I'm interested in, I think I'll finally have to check him out.
Ever read the Terry Pratchett book "Small Gods" from the Discworld series? On the disc in general, gods are created and made more powerful by belief in them on behalf of mortals. Small Gods in particular focuses on religion and I think you'd quite like it, given what you're going for here.Please do this. Pratchett is perhaps the best fantasy author since Tolkien and funnier that Douglas Adams (of galactic hitchhiker fame) and the entire crew of Monty Python put together.
Any particular recommendations?
Any particular recommendations?You know, countless people have recommended Terry Pratchett to me for some time now, and I never got around to reading anything of his (though I've heard great things). That would sound like something I'm interested in, I think I'll finally have to check him out.
Ever read the Terry Pratchett book "Small Gods" from the Discworld series? On the disc in general, gods are created and made more powerful by belief in them on behalf of mortals. Small Gods in particular focuses on religion and I think you'd quite like it, given what you're going for here.Please do this. Pratchett is perhaps the best fantasy author since Tolkien and funnier that Douglas Adams (of galactic hitchhiker fame) and the entire crew of Monty Python put together.
The first book, "The Colour of Magic", is a good starting point, not only was it the first book in the series but it stars one of his best characters, Rincewind the Wizzard.
"Small Gods" and "Guards! Guards!" are also good options.
The cake is a lie. Rickroll. They're taking the hobbits to Isengard. Snape, Snape, Severus Snape.
/\Yeah, that's the only book I ever read and it was pretty funny. Does he appear in other books?
/\Yeah, that's the only book I ever read and it was pretty funny. Does he appear in other books?
He's in the sequel, "The Light Fantastic", as well as "Sourcery" "--Faust-- Eric", "Interesting Times", "The Last Continent", and "The Last Hero".
I've only read "The Colour of Magic" myself as well of that list, sadly, and that was a good while ago. I am sorely out of date on my Discworld.
I'm the only one who hated Pratchett, evidently. Too "cutesy" by half. I never liked Douglas Adams, for that matter, or Monte Python to be brutally honest.
I'm the only one who hated Pratchett, evidently. Too "cutesy" by half. I never liked Douglas Adams, for that matter, or Monte Python to be brutally honest.
Ouch. You and my humor is likely incompatible.
Ouch. You and my humor is likely incompatible.
Yup. I'll stick with Caddyshack, Police Squad, and My Name is Earl.
For fantasy give me Leiber, Vance, Zelazny, and Brust.
I like to think of a meme as a "thought virus" and thus the term "going viral" for most memes.
I can see that, except for the negative baggage of the word virus.
My first exposure to the term was Dawkins and so I take it as the cultural equivalent to gene.
So vile destructive memes would be like viruses....
A good meme might be something like the golden rule.
I can haz cheezburgher?
I never liked....Monte Python to be brutally honest.
....
Potential-Tension Breaking Poodle to the rescue!YAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAP YAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAP!
YAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAP YAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAP!
Someone call animal control.
YAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAP YAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAPYAP!Someone call animal control.
Good idea! *Gets on phone*
Excuse me, is this animal control? There's a pair of identical dragons growling at me!
You know, countless people have recommended Terry Pratchett to me for some time now, and I never got around to reading anything of his (though I've heard great things). That would sound like something I'm interested in, I think I'll finally have to check him out.
Ever read the Terry Pratchett book "Small Gods" from the Discworld series? On the disc in general, gods are created and made more powerful by belief in them on behalf of mortals. Small Gods in particular focuses on religion and I think you'd quite like it, given what you're going for here.
Pratchett and Neil Gaiman's Good Omens was great (IMHO). You might also find some deific plot ideas in it.
I very highly recommend the fantastic American Gods. It is a great read and should prove inspirational for your game... I wish I could explain more, but I hate to spoil any little bit of it for you.
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As others have mentioned, Pratchett is extremely funny, and the books recommended thus far in the thread are all good.
I may be a bit biased, I've read the majority of his books over the course of the last few years and am trying to get a group together to play the Discworld RPG they made a while back using GURPS. Didn't mean to threadjack though, so let's get this back on track.
I think the best example given thus far for a meme is religion. I'd never really thought about it that way but it makes perfect sense. Thank you, for broadening my definition.
I'll just chime in here one last time and then continue on the thread. If there's anything more you would like to discuss, we can start a thread in the books section of the messageboard
Any particular recommendations?
Please do this. Pratchett is perhaps the best fantasy author since Tolkien and funnier that Douglas Adams (of galactic hitchhiker fame) and the entire crew of Monty Python put together.
To be honest, I would recomend reading them all in order. Start with The colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic and go from there.
If that's not an option I would dip into a couple of the first books from the plot archs and see which ones you fancy. See, discworld has several different plot archs that each have their own feel to them. You may like one better than another, depending on your taste.
Let's see, the Rincewind tales start with the Colour of Magic. These books are the most traditional 'high fantasy' style books and feature wizards, Barbarians and exotic monsters.
Then there's the Granny Weatherwax series that starts of with Equal Rites. These books are also heavy on magic, but in a slightly different way. Think 'the force' rather than fireballs.
The Death family series (featuring the Grim Reaper himself and his closest relatives) is about the universe and how it impacts mortals. The concept is a bit difficult to explain without revealing the plot of one or more books but trust me when I tell you it's a good read. Anyway, the first book is Mort.
Then there's the Night Watch series starting with Guards! Guards!. These books read a bit like detective novels and throw in a heavy dose of misdirection together with a healthy dose of humor.
The Young Adults series starts with the Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents. These books are written for young adults and have been toned down a bit in terms of language and explicitness, although not much.
Finaly the Moist Von Lipwig series, which starts with Going Postal, is the most recent series and only has two books so far. These books have a 'big heist' theme. Think Ocean's 11.
There are a few books that don't really fit in with the other series but are equally worthwhile. Characters from one series often make a cameo in other novels and there are some characters that don't have their own series but appear in many other books.
My favorite is Night Watch. I wouldn't recommend starting with it. Although the plot doesn't depend on knowledge of the previous novels in the series, I enjoyed it much more because I did read them in order.
Hoe this helps. Have fun reading.
Ok, back on topic now:
I think a meme is a bit of a catch all phrase for many different things.
My understanding is that a meme is an idea that is passed on from one person to the next, growing and evolving as it does so. Religion is an example of this. As is Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, and many of the fairytales we get taught as children. I really like the virus analogy. Very apt.
The way I see the word meme used most often, is in relation to the internet. Short-term hypes like 'all your base are belong to us', Rickrolling, the Numa Numa song and Pirates vs Ninja's are internet meme's.
While I can see a diety or power growing form a meme like Christmas (in fact, you may want to add Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather to your must read list) I don't think the Numa Numa song will get do.
BTW, great idea for a campaign!
Ok, back on topic now:
I think a meme is a bit of a catch all phrase for many different things.
My understanding is that a meme is an idea that is passed on from one person to the next, growing and evolving as it does so. Religion is an example of this. As is Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, and many of the fairytales we get taught as children. I really like the virus analogy. Very apt.
The way I see the word meme used most often, is in relation to the internet. Short-term hypes like 'all your base are belong to us', Rickrolling, the Numa Numa song and Pirates vs Ninja's are internet meme's.
While I can see a diety or power growing form a meme like Christmas (in fact, you may want to add Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather to your must read list) I don't think the Numa Numa song will get do.
BTW, great idea for a campaign!
Thank you! I understand what you mean. Some memes just won't attain that sort of status in my world, and I intend to keep it that way (A Cleric of Numa!).
I think the most interesting part now is to see what sort of fantasy memes my world has. I mean, religion itself is a meme, as many of you pointed out, and I was thinking of a paradoxical god who embodied the meme of religion while being unfortunately forced into a pious state of worship simultaneously. I would have to think on that one for a while, but it sounds like something I'd be interested in tinkering with.
For now, I have a handful of religions dedicated to the memes of The Golden Rule, an Eye For an Eye, The More You Know (heh), and their ilk, but I'm planning on branching out into more abstract concepts, like "Silence is Golden" for a spin on a "mute" religion, or "Be Not No One", a religion based around the ideal of not becoming the "No One", a terrible being who should be feared and avoided at all costs.
Oh, and of course I'll be starting on Mr. Pratchett very soon :).
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You know, countless people have recommended Terry Pratchett to me for some time now, and I never got around to reading anything of his (though I've heard great things). That would sound like something I'm interested in, I think I'll finally have to check him out.
Ever read the Terry Pratchett book "Small Gods" from the Discworld series? On the disc in general, gods are created and made more powerful by belief in them on behalf of mortals. Small Gods in particular focuses on religion and I think you'd quite like it, given what you're going for here.Pratchett and Neil Gaiman's Good Omens was great (IMHO). You might also find some deific plot ideas in it.
I very highly recommend the fantastic American Gods. It is a great read and should prove inspirational for your game... I wish I could explain more, but I hate to spoil any little bit of it for you.
I will third both those books as great reads and interesting takes on divinity.
Also Steven Brust To riegn in Hell
Link?
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Also Steven Brust To riegn in HellLink?
Here you go. Not only is it a good book but it subtly brings up a couple of good theological points.
Okay, you sold me. It is a single novel or in a series?
As long as it doesn't read like a LaHaye or Peretti (sic) novel, or else I'm going to have to brain you for pointing me toward this in the first place. ;)