Caught in a Panicked Crowd: Mechanics?

[Exle]

Hey,

I'm writing a scenario for 1st level characters about the fall of a city. One the environmental hazards will be panicking crowds.

Ex: PCs are trying to head toward the danger against the flow of fleeing cityfolk; PCs are pushing their way through the dense crowd trying to gain entry to the keep when the crowd is panicked by something attacking from the sky; EvilFoe casts fear on a crowd and PCs try to rescue someone from being trampled; etc.

What do you(plural) think mechanics-wise?
•Non-panicked crowd would simply be difficult terrain that provides soft cover.
•Perhaps a sense-motive check DC 15 when a crowd is about to panic might allow an observant character to take a move action before the crowd flips out?
•Strength check to keep from being swept along? Ref save to avoid taking damage by going with the flow? Use of intimidate to direct the crowd? High-DC diplomacy actually to de-panic the crowd?
•d8 nonlethal damage?
•Potential to earn XP? How much?

Thanks for your (plural) input.

[KnightErrantJR]

I've done a scene like this, but it was in Star Wars Saga, which is a little different, but here's a shot at it.

Moving Against the Crowd

I'd make it a DC 15 strength check to move against the crowd, or be moved back 30 feet.

Anyone that is moved back must make a DC 15 Reflex check or take 1d6 non-lethal damage.

Anyone that makes the strength check can move through the crowd as rough terrain.

Getting the panicked crowd's attention

Keeping this reasonable for a 1st level party, I'd keep it a DC 15 Intimidate check to move everyone adjacent to the character as calmer (i.e. just rough terrain) until the end of the character's next turn.

All "calm" crowds can then be permanently calmed down with a DC 15 Diplomacy check, at which point that part of the crowd would dissipate.

XP

I'd count resolving or surviving this as a story award, which I think is two standard (CR 1 in this case) awards.

[Anburaid]

Exle wrote:

Hey,

I'm writing a scenario for 1st level characters about the fall of a city. One the environmental hazards will be panicking crowds.

Ex: PCs are trying to head toward the danger against the flow of fleeing cityfolk; PCs are pushing their way through the dense crowd trying to gain entry to the keep when the crowd is panicked by something attacking from the sky; EvilFoe casts fear on a crowd and PCs try to rescue someone from being trampled; etc.

What do you(plural) think mechanics-wise?
•Non-panicked crowd would simply be difficult terrain that provides soft cover.
•Perhaps a sense-motive check DC 15 when a crowd is about to panic might allow an observant character to take a move action before the crowd flips out?
•Strength check to keep from being swept along? Ref save to avoid taking damage by going with the flow? Use of intimidate to direct the crowd? High-DC diplomacy actually to de-panic the crowd?
•d8 nonlethal damage?
•Potential to earn XP? How much?

Thanks for your (plural) input.

I would allow a few different ways to move against the tide. An acrobatics check for dextrous characters, an intimidate check for social characters, and a strength check for people who just muscle through. Otherwise they suffer a significant overrun attempt against them. If they fail badly and fall to the ground, then you could use a reflex save to avoid the brunt of the damage.

1d8 subdual is pretty nasty for 1st level IMHO. If it were me I'd bring it down to 1d6, which is the damage for falling 10' I believe. mind you, unless he has an appropriate spell or skill, the wizard in the party is gonna suck at this ;)

depending on the DC's the rewards could be up to 400 xp (the award for a CR1 encounter) if it could likely mean their defeat with a bad roll. Consider how much of the parties resources this encounter is likely to sap, and then award a portion of that 400xp.

[Shadowborn]

The Shackled City adventure path had rules for dealing with crowds, using Diplomacy and/or Intimidate to get them to move as you'd like them to. There's another AP, or maybe the same one, that dealt with mobs, basically swarms of medium sized creatures.

[KnightErrantJR]

I was going to mention Mobs, but as written, they'd be death for a 1st level party. On the other hand, if anyone wants to check them out for curiosity's sake, they are detailed in the DMG II, and pretty much work out to a CR 8 "swarm."

I believe there were also some mobs statted out in Cityscape.

[Epic Meepo]

Here's what the Core Rules say about crowds:

The PRD wrote:

Crowds: Urban streets are often full of people going about their daily lives. In most cases, it isn't necessary to put every 1st-level commoner on the map when a fight breaks out on the city's main thoroughfare. Instead, just indicate which squares on the map contain crowds. If crowds see something obviously dangerous, they'll move away at 30 feet per round at initiative count 0. It takes 2 squares of movement to enter a square with crowds. The crowds provide cover for anyone who does so, enabling a Stealth check and providing a bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves.

Directing Crowds: It takes a DC 15 Diplomacy check or DC 20 Intimidate check to convince a crowd to move in a particular direction, and the crowd must be able to hear or see the character making the attempt. It takes a full-round action to make the Diplomacy check, but only a free action to make the Intimidate check.

If two or more characters are trying to direct a crowd in different directions, they make opposed Diplomacy or Intimidate checks to determine to whom the crowd listens. The crowd ignores everyone if none of the characters' check results beat the DCs given above.

[Selgard]

The only problem I see is that any damage is likely to start killing the PC's if its taken more than once.
(i.e. if tey have to avoid one small crowd they will be bruised and battered but having to navigate a city int hat condition would likely kill them)

I'd remove the injury and instead put a time clock on when they have to get to the keep. (you have 5 minutes to get there or X happens) andt hen have "failed checks" increase the time it takes to get there.

This lets their movement be imporant without having PC's potentially die to what is basically an unavoidable event. (the crowd).

I would probably impose low to medium reflex saves, with bonuses awarded for creative PC's.

The CR for the event(s) should vary depending on the DC you set for each part. Low DC's should warrant 1/2 or 1/3 CR creature defeat rewards with harder DC's getting commesurately (can't spell that word for the life of me) larger.

Just random thoughts.

-S

[Kaisoku]

You've heard of the trampling deaths that happen on Black Friday, right? Being pushed to the ground and stepped on, or being squished against a pillar/wall/glass window or door, can all be lethal when you have a mob of 100+ people behind it.

However, this is something that normally kills the average common person (usually the weaker ones like the elderly or children). And even then, most of the time deaths are the extreme (broken limbs and excessive "non-lethal" damage).

So I'd say 1 point of non-lethal damage per round they have fallen on the ground. This means even the 8 Con wizard will stay conscious through 5 rounds of being on the ground before risking real damage, and another 13 rounds before death.

In other words, 30 seconds of trampling before going unconscious, and another minute and fifteen (1:45 total) before death.
That's a LOT of trampling time, and a regular-sized crowd should have passed over him before killing him in that time (even if only moving 10' a round, we are still talking about 180' long crowd).

[grufflehead]

Funnily enough, I read this article about a week ago:

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/crowds.html

Might give you some ideas.

[Exle]

Thanks for the great feedback everyone.

[Evil Lincoln]

I would straight up use the stampede rules presented under Aurochs in the new Bestiary to determine the potential damage. Use the size category chart for damage to drop the damage down for medium creatures.