Hideous Laughter contradiction

[Ravingdork]

Hideous Laughter says that the target can't take actions. It also says that the target can make a save every round as a full round action. Which one is correct?

[TheDrone]

Ravingdork wrote:

Hideous Laughter says that the target can't take actions. It also says that the target can make a save every round as a full round action. Which one is correct?

I believe it's saying...

"You can't take any actions, HOWEVER, you can make a one time save on the round after the initial failed save as a full round action."

It's trying to say that if you MAKE your save in that next round, you can take no actions until the following round.

[azhrei_fje]

I have found HL to be one of those spells that the arcanist must have which generally means it's too powerful. We've tuned it down quite a bit in our CotCT campaign:

House Rule wrote:

The hideous laughter spell allows an additional save on the second round and succeeding rounds with a cumulative +1 bonus per round. In addition, a creature that fails its save may still take a single move action each round and is not required to remain prone (standing up from prone is still a move action that provokes).

This means an arcanist can still take out a single opponent for a few rounds, but even against a high-level caster the +1 cumulative bonus on the save means the practical upper limit is going to be about 6 rounds.

[James Jacobs]

Ravingdork wrote:

Hideous Laughter says that the target can't take actions. It also says that the target can make a save every round as a full round action. Which one is correct?

It's poorly written, I guess. It basically says that you can't take actions because you're taking a full round action every round to try to recover or to laugh.

[DracoDruid]

Sorry for Thread-Necro here, but I have another question regarding HL:

The spell states a +4 Save bonus when cast on different type then oneself.

Okay, but does this include subtypes?

I guess not, but Goblin humor is probably a LOT different than human or elf humor...

And in the description of the Gnome race, it says that their humor is often misunderstood aswell (seen as mean or whatnot).

Anyone?

[concerro]

Types and subtypes are different. As an example orcs and goblins are both of the humanoid type, but they are different subtypes.

[Ascalaphus]

I dunno, you can probably make a goblin laugh by making a joke about the nasty things you could do to a dwarf.

[Midnight_Angel]

However, an Aasimar bard will have a hard time trying this spell on a human or elf, being, like, totally alien.

On the other hand, he has it considerably easier when trying to get the point across to a devil. Or elemental.

Sometimes, the barriers for sense of humor are strange indeed...

[Malachi Silverclaw]

Wow! The spell itself has a sense of humour; how cool is that!

Also, going shopping for tiny, tiny fruit tarts?

Spellcaster shopping for tiny tarts: 'Why?...er...no reason! Especially not casting enchantment spells if that's what your thinking!'

Barbarian shopping for tiny tarts after spellcaster's Bad Bakery Experience: 'Yeah! I said ''Tiny tarts''! Wanna make something of it...!'

[Ascalaphus]

When I made an Aberrant sorcerer (who of course gets Eschew Materials), I imagined the spell more as mad laughter in the face of eldritch horrors than about "fun".

Of course, what scares one race may not impress another one all that much.

[DracoDruid]

Am I the only one who thinks that this conditional save bonus should simply be dropped?

It's a 1st level spell to begin with, so the DC won't be that high anyways.
Effectively lowering it to 6 + Spell ability, is almost an automaticly failed spell.

I don't know about you, but I will ignore this sentence (and bonus).

I will simply state that the spell is not transmitting actual images/humor but rather "triggering" the humor center in the target's brain/mind.

[stringburka]

DracoDruid wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks that this conditional save bonus should simply be dropped?

It's a 1st level spell to begin with, so the DC won't be that high anyways.
Effectively lowering it to 6 + Spell ability, is almost an automaticly failed spell.

I don't know about you, but I will ignore this sentence (and bonus).

I will simply state that the spell is not transmitting actual images/humor but rather "triggering" the humor center in the target's brain/mind.

It's one of the best spells for the level. The +4 bonus to those of another kind is actually kind of a bonus compared to what it would probably have been otherwise: Humanoid targets only (like charm person).

So instead of being like Charm Person, it's like, you CAN cast it on others, but with a penalty. It's additional versatility, not a limiter.

[DracoDruid]

True, but it produces several strange cases/questions, as discribed above.

So the easiest way would be - IMO - to drop the circumstancial bonus but leave the ability to affect other types.
(Int 3+, not immune to mind-effects)

Or would this be too powerful?

[Malachi Silverclaw]

It would be too powerful. I LOVE the spell, unless it's cast on ME : )

At any decent level one failed save takes a single foe out of the entire combat. When all his mates are dead, the whole party surrounds the foe ant full-attacks him till he's dead, too. And he can't do anything about it. This is why the spell gives the foe a SECOND chance to save, just to give the poor sap a chance!

[blackbloodtroll]

Scion of Humanity Aasamir will have no problems with Outsiders or Humanoids in regards to this spell.

[Talonhawke]

This spell was a curse in my red hand of doom game for some reason every time they used it in a dragon I rolled a 1

[Xexyz]

DracoDruid wrote:

It's a 1st level spell to begin with

Hideous Laughter is a 2nd level spell.

[DracoDruid]

Man. It REALLY isn't my week...

[Malachi Silverclaw]

Xexyz wrote:

DracoDruid wrote:

It's a 1st level spell to begin with

Hideous Laughter is a 2nd level spell.

It IS a 2nd lvl Sorcerer/Wizard spell.

It is ALSO a 1st lvl Bard spell.

: )

[Kwauss]

What does 'not helpless' but 'can't take actions' amount to? Does the person threaten? Can they take AoO's?

[Kwauss]

Can they use a shield? Do they drop what they're carrying?

[Sadurian]

Using a shield in Pathfinder is a presented as being passive so I doubt you'd lose Shield AC. You might not drop what you're carrying, but you'd be unable to effectively use it.

No AoOs, and no threatening. They're laughing too much to be a threat to anyone in range.

[Akerlof]

Kwauss wrote:

What does 'not helpless' but 'can't take actions' amount to? Does the person threaten? Can they take AoO's?

They can't take AoOs, make attacks, cast spells, threaten or provide a flank, etc. But opponents still have to beat their normal armor class to hit them, rogues don't automatically get sneak attacks on them (unless they get a sneak attack for some other reason like flanking), they don't lose special bonuses like Monk Wis to AC or Evasion and, most importantly, they cannot be coup de grace'd.

<edited to add:>
Helpless is a specific condition, and Hideous Laughter does not give that condition to a target the way Hold Person does, for example:

Helpless wrote:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.