Hybrids in Pathfinder?

[Legora]

While reading over the new posts, I came across a thread talking about Apprentice levels, and while interesting, it didn't really fit what happens in my games. Then someone mentioned Hybrids from 4E.
<ducks all the rotten tomatoes>
Now, I have played 4E, and personally, if all you want is a tabletop game with simple characters and powers, it does it's job well. However, I prefer Roleplaying in my RPG's so Pathfinder has become the ONLY D&D style rules system I'll play.
That being said, there was one feature from 4E that I rather liked... that being Hybrid Classes.
I run two tables for Pathfinder. One is a group of 6 players, the other a group of 3 (Including myself as DM) The smaller group often finds it necessary to multiclass in order to have a healer, arcanist, fighter and rogue basics in party. While Multiclassing works, at 6th level you have 2 3rd level classes but the monsters you are facing are all much more powerful than you are. I've considered letting my players Gestalt two classes together, but then you get the problem that if one character doesn't want to run a Gestalt, it's much less powerful than his compatriots.
What I would like to see, is official Hybrid rules that you could merge the abilities of two classes while still remaining equal or on par with non hybrid classes of your own level.

Thoughts?

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Legora wrote:

What I would like to see, is official Hybrid rules that you could merge the abilities of two classes while still remaining equal or on par with non hybrid classes of your own level.

Thoughts?

That is basically the multi-class rules from 1st and 2nd edition where at low levels a multi-class character was still about equal to a single class character and at high levels was maybe only a level or two behind.

The multi-class rules of 3rd edition is probably the one change from 2nd that I like the least. While it does take a bit of work to do, I have seen people convert and use the 2nd ed multi-classes rules with 3rd ed without things getting out of control.

[Kolokotroni]

I dont know much about 4E hybrid classes, ive played it but we didnt use those. But if your objective is to have all your bases covered with a 3 person party is to encourage the players to use classes that do that.

Druid (Animal Companion plus wild shaped druid make a pretty decent combatant and have a good divine spell list). The Paladin, More fighter less divine then the druid. The summoner, this class can fill any role but the divine spellcaster. Eidolon can be big and tough, or could have lots of skills, and the summoner has a pretty good arcane list for buffs and battlefield control. Cleric, Particularly a 'battle' cleric. When buffed hes a good frontliner, and well, he's still a cleric. Inquisitor, good skill list, pretty good combat abilities, and bard progression divine spellcasting.

If you are allowing 3.5 material, I highly recomend the beguiler (good arcane spell list for utility and buffs, and excellent skill monkey). Favored soul is good too.

If you use classes like these, you still have to scale down for a 3 person party. But they will cover all the bases without having to heavily multiclass and thus have rather lack luster abilities as they go up in level. Obviously your players have to want to use these classes, but it will definately help if they do.

[Frostflame]

Well some of the New classes seem to fulfill two roles. You could use the witch class which has pretty good buffs/debuffs plus an array of healing spells as well as the healing hex so you can cover the arcane and healing roles. In addition there is the oracle class depending on the focus you take he can work as a multi-class cleric. A battle focus oracle can cover both fighter and healer role.

[Odentin]

Leadership.

[Frostflame]

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Legora wrote:

What I would like to see, is official Hybrid rules that you could merge the abilities of two classes while still remaining equal or on par with non hybrid classes of your own level.

Thoughts?

That is basically the multi-class rules from 1st and 2nd edition where at low levels a multi-class character was still about equal to a single class character and at high levels was maybe only a level or two behind.

The multi-class rules of 3rd edition is probably the one change from 2nd that I like the least. While it does take a bit of work to do, I have seen people convert and use the 2nd ed multi-classes rules with 3rd ed without things getting out of control.

I agree with you, I didn't like the change of multi-classng rules from second to third edition, however in defense the character would be way too powerful. In second edition if you recall XP and HP were divided by 2 or even 3, which pretty much kept a multi class character in check, especially were HP were concerned. Fighter/Cleric would have max 9 starting Hitpoints and only if he had CON score of 18 would he have 13. Dont forget CON Bonus was divided as well. If you were playing a multi-class character you were pretty much skulking in the back of the party at the beginning levels. In addition don't forget XP advancement was totally different. There were different advancement rates for each class.

The 3.5 Gestalts are a little over powered in my opinion. You get all the class features of both classes plus the best saves of both classes, BAB and HP. The only thing I could suggest with a Gestalt to keep him in line is have him follow slow advancement whilst the single class characters follow Fast advancement. That way he stays around 3 levels behind the other party members

[Frostflame]

Wanted to add to the above post. If you want to be stricter on Gestalts as well you could have them slow advance and divide experience by 2 whilst single class characters fast advanced. That way a single classed character doesnt feel underpowered as he will be probably between 3 to 5 levels ahead of a gestalt.

[Thalin]

Druids actually handle the tank/post-combat healing combo quite well without multi. Skillmonkeys (rogue/bard) are handy, but truly you just need someone with a good perception (and mage hand from the wizard). 1 non-multied wizard handles a lot of misc aspects. So Druid, Wizard, and Fighter 2/Rogue X would be my setup for the 3-man party.

Druid: focus on being animal form. Low levels be a monster generator/tank. Spirit of the Beast-style, high strength transformer.
Wizard: godmode (see Treat's guide)
Fighter/Rogue: level 1 fighter (strictly better for hp purposes long term), set up as a dual-weilding/throw build. Str 19 dex 16 style, Level 1 twf daggers for d4+5 each (human with Point Blank, Quickdraw, and TWF), then switch to long/shortsword when the enemies get close. Get Mithril Breastplate ASAP, and tumble around in that (it's light). Damage output machine, without the standard rogue fragility.

Finally, why do people recommend leadership? If the DM wants an NPC to handle a role, just have them toss one in. No need to penalize someone a feat.

[Legora]

I'd have to agree that Leadership isn't an option. The party consists of the two players, and one DM played character. Adding to the party with NPC's would be the same as having the players play multiple characters to increase the size of the party.

That's not what we were looking for, rather a method to have the three characters be able to cover the needed roles in the adventure/party without forcing Gestalting.

[Arazyr]

Legora wrote:

What I would like to see, is official Hybrid rules that you could merge the abilities of two classes while still remaining equal or on par with non hybrid classes of your own level.

Thoughts?

I would recommend taking a look at the Generic Classes variant rules. (Which someone is working on converting to PRPG here. Okay, they aren't "official" Pathfinder rules, but it could work.

[kyrt-ryder]

If you want to run Gestault in Pathfinder I have a little advice for you, based on personal experiences in 3.5.

Minimum ECL to start a Gestault character is level 3.

Every 4 levels after 3 the Gestault PC misses a level.

1 : X
2 : x
3 : 2/2
4 : 3/3
5 : 4/4
6 : 5/5
7 : 6/6
8 : 7/7
9 : 7/7
10: 8/8
11: 9/9
12: 10/10
13: 11/11
14: 11/11
15: 12/12
16: 13/13
17: 14/14
18: 15/15
19: 15/15
20: 16/16

For the record, it played out pretty well. The Gestault characters tend to have a bit of a glass jaw but it's somewhat mitigated by the technique of Gestault PC's typically having a hit die in the upper tiers. (I might advise allowing Gestault PC's to gain Favored class bonus on both classes, to help mitigate that problem somewhat.)

[encorus]

Legora wrote:

While reading over the new posts, I came across a thread talking about Apprentice levels, and while interesting, it didn't really fit what happens in my games. Then someone mentioned Hybrids from 4E.

<ducks all the rotten tomatoes>
Now, I have played 4E, and personally, if all you want is a tabletop game with simple characters and powers, it does it's job well. However, I prefer Roleplaying in my RPG's so Pathfinder has become the ONLY D&D style rules system I'll play.

I run both systems, and I have the same amount of roleplaying going on in both 4E and Pathfinder. Actually, the D&D 4E DMG and DMG2 have much more material about roleplaying than the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

[MerrikCale]

see, I thought this was going to be about fuel efficient cars

[Ben Adler]

You could do a 2nd edition multiclassing method, where you split your experience between advancing different classes.
Big thing I'd say there is to have the players keep both classes within 1 level of eachother, and have the abilities overlap, not stack.

Meaning if you have 5 fighter and 5 cleric, you'd only have a bab of +5, and you'd need 2x the experience of a lvl 5 character to reach this point (roughly halfway between lvl 6 and 7).

The big question is how to deal with hp and skills. Perhaps the second class adds 1/2 hp and 1/2 skill ranks it would normally give?

[Legora]

My small home group and I are about to try out the Hybrid suggestion with a twist. What I'm working on is the following.

Pick two classes. Come up with a good explanation of the concept. (Ruling out the Barbarian/Wizard)

Level Hybrid Benefit
1 1/1 Best HD, BAB, Saves, special abilities from both classes
2 1/1 Gain HD of other class, but no other level increases
3 2/2 Best HD, BAB, Saves, special abilities from both classes
4 3/3 Best HD, BAB, Saves, special abilities from both classes
5 4/4 Best HD, BAB, Saves, special abilities from both classes
6 4/4 Gain HD of other class, but no other level increases
7 5/5 Best HD, BAB, Saves, special abilities from both classes
8 6/6 Best HD, BAB, Saves, special abilities from both classes
9 7/7 Best HD, BAB, Saves, special abilities from both classes
10 7/7 Gain HD of other class, but no other level increases

Progression continues on the same pattern.
Characters with spell lists either combine the spell lists and take the best spell slot rating, or in the case of a Divine/Arcane mix, keep two separate spell lists.

I'll let you know how it goes with the next few games.

[Legora]

Success!
In a party of three each one being a Hybrid, now at 5 HD (So level 4/4 according to the chart) our pc's are doing well going through level appropriate content.

The characters are balanced, but they can really shine when put into situations that would call for a full party. We fought a horde of zombies and the two hybrid clerics began a burst fest that really whittled them down.

However, in putting them up against the main challenges of the modules, I find their capabilities on par with a regular party, without the holes you would get normally with such a small sized party.