So you've obviously got some minimums in mind that you've arbitrarily setup and not shared with anyone. Can you please explain your math as to why a +8 is just fine, but a +6 deserves a "c'mon"?
well, i'm not amib, but i think if you look at it like this:
spellcaster with a 16 primary casting stat
5th level spell
save DC = 18.
Also, the table "Monster Statistics by CR" in the Bestiary monster guidelines says that the average Primary Ability DC is 19. So +6 = fail 60% of the time, +8 = fail 50% of the time, +6 w/ reroll = fail 36% of the time, +8 w/ reroll = fail 25% of the time.
I agree that some of the parameters are a little nebulous, but it's not keeping me up at nights, personally.
So you've obviously got some minimums in mind that you've arbitrarily setup and not shared with anyone. Can you please explain your math as to why a +8 is just fine, but a +6 deserves a "c'mon"?
Emphasis mine.
I understand why you might miss the following post, as it's within the thread (MiB cannot edit the first post):
Some implicit rules updates:
Level 10 gold is 62K. Some of the earlier builds in the thread use 45K WBL, the old 3.5 total.
Point Blank Shot is not applicable (unless you make a throwing-weapon build or something), because most archers would rather not benefit from it.
AC below 20 is not acceptable for melee characters under any circumstances (barring exceptional non-AC defenses), and characters should try to avoid ACs below 22 or fort/will saves under +8.
I might change the rules for self-cast buffs that aren't self-only buffs. (Heroism and GMW are the big ones here.) I dunno. Maybe do the DPR with and without them?
No homebrew or non-core material, even if it's Paizo non-core material, mostly since I don't have regular access to most of the PF stuff besides core and the Bestiary.
Emphasis mine.
Best practice is to not use accusatory language when you aren't 100% certain your accusation is correct.
On the other hand, MiB probably shouldn't have assumed you saw his interm thread update either.
The reason I bring this up is because you crammed a +4 weapon in there by sacrificing basic defensive magic items, like a cloak of resistance. The whole idea from the start is that the characters are realistically balanced, not defenseless glass cannons.
I've actually been even more restrictive in my Iron Mage simulation builds, using the WBL subdivision guidelines; I allow for some fudging between the offense, defense and miscellaneous (mainly +ability) categories, but fully 25% of the available wealth is supposed to be consumables and miscellaneous valuables and I've been setting that in stone. That's 15,500 gp of unusable wealth, bringing the total down to 46,500 for everything else.
A character with a crafting feat can ignore the distribution guidelines for items he can craft, and can turn all his cash into items, giving him a potential total (thread-relevant) gear value of 68,200. Anything he can't craft still has to fit within its category budget.
If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack.Ouch. I knew the Barbarian wasn't going to look great, but that's still lower than I expected.
He invested 3 out of 5 feats on things that don't improve his damage per round (at least in this test). Not to mention short-changing himself by one feat for not being a human (or half-elf, for that matter, since he ended up taking Skill Focus).
Redoing the barbarian as a (cheesy) two-weapon fighter (with two-handed weapon + armor spikes) might be a bit better.
Maybe not as much as you think, if it is at all.
Barbarians, who are mostly about Str and Con, now have to pump Dex as well for TWF. They also are feat starved, which makes gaining the feats to be effective with two-weapon fighting (Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, etc.) as well as the feats to improve attack/damage bonuses (Critical Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, etc.) that much harder. The way the attack roll penalties for PA and TWF stack (-5 on attack rolls) hurts the DPR potential too much at 10th level without some other improvement (divine favor, heroism, etc.) to compensate.
For instance:
Half-Orc Barbarian 10
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Str), Medium Size, Speed 30 ft, Darkvision 60 ft, Intimidating (+2 Intimidate checks), Orc Blood, Orc Ferocity, Weapon Familiarity (proficient w/ greataxes, falchions; "orc" weapons martial)
Class Features: Fast Movement (+10 ft Speed unless heavy armor/load), Rage (24 rounds/day; +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC), Rage Powers (Animal Fury- bite on full attack, -5 attack roll, 1d4 damage, 1/2 Str bonus; Guarded Stance- +2 AC vs. melee for 5 rounds, move action; Increased Damage Reduction- +2 DR when raging; Intimidating Glare- Intimidate check as move action, opponent shaken 1d4 rounds +1 round/5 points above DC)), Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction 2/-
Skills: Acrobatics 10 (+16), Intimidate 10 (+14), Perception 10 (+14), Survival 10 (+14)
Feats: Critical Focus, Double Slice, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Orc Double Axe)
Gear: rhino hide (5,165 gp), +1 keen/+1 keen orc double axe (16,660 gp), ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), ioun stone (dusty rose prism, +1 insight AC) (5,000 gp), 3,175 gp of other items
Combat*: AC 23 (touch 16, flat-footed 20), DR 2/-, 90.5 avg. hp, +15/+10 melee or +13/+8 ranged, Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +6, Init +3, CMB +15, CMD 28
*- Rage gives AC 21 (touch 14, flat-footed 18), DR 4/-, 110.5 avg. hp, +17/+12 melee, Fort +13, Will +8, CMB +17, CMD 30
Charge + Power Attack: +16 (1d8+17, 19-20/x3, +2d6), AC 21
DPR vs. AC 24 = ((.65 - .1) * 28.5) + (.1 * (28.5 + (.85 * 2 * 21.5))) = (.55 * 28.5) + (.1 * (28.5 + 36.55)) = 15.675 + 6.505 =
Rage + Charge + PA: +18 (1d8+20, 19-20/x3, +2d6), AC 19
DPR vs. AC 24 = ((.75 - .1) * 31.5) + (.1 * (31.5 + (.95 * 2 * 24.5))) = (.65 * 31.5) + (.1 * (31.5 + 46.55)) = 20.475 + 7.805 =
Power Attack: +14/+9 (1d8+17, 19-20/x3)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.45 * 21.5) + (.1 * (21.5 + (.75 * 2 * 21.5))) + (.2 * 21.5) + (.1 * (21.5 + (.5 * 2 * 21.5))) = 9.675 + 5.375 + 4.3 + 4.3 =
Rage + PA: +16/+11 (1d8+20, 19-20/x3) and +9 (1d4+6, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.55 * 24.5) + (.1 * (24.5 + (.85 * 2 * 24.5))) + (.3 * 24.5) + (.1 * (24.5 + (.6 * 2 * 24.5))) + (.25 * 8.5) + (.05 * (8.5 + (.5 * 8.5))) = 13.475 + 6.615 + 7.35 + 5.39 + 2.125 + .6375 =
Two-Weapon Fighting: +15/+10 (1d8+6, 19-20/x3) and +15 (1d8+6, 19-20/x3)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.5 * 10.5) + (.1 * (10.5 + (.8 * 2 * 10.5))) + (.25 * 10.5) + (.1 * (10.5 + (.55 * 2 * 10.5))) + (.5 * 10.5) + (.1 * (10.5 + (.8 * 2 * 10.5))) = 5.25 + 2.73 + 2.625 + 2.205 + 5.25 + 2.73 =
Rage + TWF: +17/+12 (1d8+8, 19-20/x3) and +17 (1d8+8, 19-20/x3) and +12 (1d4+3, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.6 * 12.5) + (.1 * (12.5 + (.9 * 2 * 12.5))) + (.35 * 12.5) + (.1 * (12.5 + (.65 * 2 * 12.5))) + (.6 * 12.5) + (.1 * (12.5 + (.9 * 2 * 12.5))) + (.4 * 5.5) + (.05 * (5.5 + (.65 * 5.5))) = 7.5 + 3.5 + 4.375 + 2.875 + 7.5 + 3.5 + 2.2 + .45375 =
PA + TWF: +12/+7 (1d8+12, 19-20/x3) and +12 (1d8+9, 19-20/x3)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.35 * 16.5) + (.1 * (16.5 + (.65 * 2 * 16.5))) + (.1 * 16.5) + (.1 * (16.5 + (.4 * 2 * 16.5))) + (.35 * 16.5) + (.1 * (16.5 + (.65 * 2 * 16.5))) = 5.775 + 3.795 + 1.65 + 2.97 + 5.775 + 3.795 =
Rage + PA + TWF: +14/+9 (1d8+14, 19-20/x3) and +14 (1d8+11, 19-20/x3) and +9 (1d4+6, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.45 * 18.5) + (.1 * (18.5 + (.75 * 2 * 18.5))) + (.2 * 18.5) + (.1 * (18.5 + (.5 * 2 * 18.5))) + (.45 * 18.5) + (.1 * (18.5 + (.75 * 2 * 18.5))) + (.25 * 8.5) + (.05 * (8.5 + (.5 * 8.5))) = 8.325 + 4.625 + 3.7 + 3.7 + 8.325 + 4.625 + 2.125 + .6375 =
You may be able to squeeze in a few more points of damage with a +2 keen greatsword and a +2 breastplate with +2 armor spikes (getting rid of the ring of protection), but I wouldn't get my hopes up that DPR will rise above 50. I'll have to try it with a dwarf (ability scores 15+2+1+4 Str, 14+1 Dex, 13+2 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8-2 Cha) and see how the numbers work...
Your TWF barbarian is terrible. I was thinking more like...
Barbara Barbarian 1.1 (I'm basing it on the previous Barbara, so any errors from there will propagate to here):
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 Belt), 26 (+8) when raging
DEX: 15 (+2) (14 base, +1 level)
CON: 13 (+1) 17 (+3) when raging
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
Hit dice: 10d12 +20 (89hp) (+20hp when raging)
Saving Throws:
Fort +10, Reflex +7, Will +8
(When raging, +2 to Fort saves, +2 to Will saves, +3 to all saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities, reroll failed Will saves once)
Armor Class:
Normal: 23 (10 base, +9 armor, +2 DEX, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet)
Raging: 21, or 23 when activating Guarded Stance
Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword) [h], Power Attack [1], TWF [3], Double Slice [5], Iron Will (? or Lunge?) [7], Improved Critical (GS) [9]
Rage (25 rounds/day) – Rage Powers: Animal Fury, Scent, Guarded Stance (+2 to AC), Clear Mind, No Escape
Skills:
Don't care (Perception, Acrobatics, Intimidate, Survival, Potpourri)
Attacks:
+3 Greatsword: (crit 17-20 x2)
-- Normal +20/+15, 2d6+12 dmg
-- Normal Power Attack +17/+12, 2d6+21 dmg
-- Raging +22/+17, 2d6+15 dmg
-- Raging Power Attack +19/+14, 2d6+24 dmg
-- TWF +18/+15/+13, 2d6+12 & 1d6+7
-- TWF Power Attack +15/+12/+10, 2d6+21 & 1d6+10
-- TWF Raging Power Attack +17/+14/+12, 2d6+24 & 1d6+12
Gear (62,000gp)
+3 Greatsword (18,350)
+3 Chain Mail (9,300)
+1 Armor Spikes (2,350)
+4 Belt of Giant Strength (16,000)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
6000 gp remaining
TWF +18/+15/+13, 2d6+12 & 1d6+7 --> average 35.12
TWF Power Attack +15/+12/+10, 2d6+21 & 1d6+10 --> average 38.3
TWF Biting Raging Power Attack +17/+14/+12/+10, 2d6+24 & 1d6+12 & 1d4+8 --> average 51.73
Now that's still quite a bit less than the fighter. But this particular contest (damage per round only) over-emphasises the importance of abilities like Weapon Specialisation and Greater Weapon Focus, IMO. It's still interesting to think about, though.
Let's try Ahnuld 2.0, beefing up the survivability and still squeezing out a few more points of damage.
Dex: 17 (15 base, +2 belt)
Con: 15 (13 base, +2 belt)
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
HD: 10d12+30 (100 hp, raging +20)
DR 2/-
Fort: +11
Ref: +8
Will: +8 (raging +10)
AC: 24, touch 14, flat-footed 21
Raging: 22, touch 12, flat-footed 19
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (orc double axe), Double Slice, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will
Rage 24 rounds/day
Rage powers: Animal Fury, whatever's fun (AC and saves are already within parameters)
Skills: like, y'know, whatever!
Gear (62000 gp):
Orc double axe +2/+2 (16660)
Masterwork composite longbow, +5 Str (900)
Mithral breastplate +3 (13200)
Ring of protection +1 (2000)
Amulet of natural armor +1 (2000)
Cloak of resistance +2 (4000)
Belt of physical perfection +2 (16000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
= 56760 gp; 5240 remaining.
Full attack: Axe +16/+16/+11/+11, 1d8+7/x3 and bite +12, 1d4+2 = 28.7
Full attack, raging: Axe +18/+18/+13/+13, 1d8+9/x3 and bite +14, 1d4+3 = 40.3
BTW, Animal Fury is a good 7% of that despite the teensy numbers!
This reflects what I've been finding in my Iron Mage simulations: TWF is usually a bad idea. Fighters have enormous built-in bonuses, rangers can dump Dex and still take the feats; anyone else is hit too hard by MAD.
Edit: Y'know, I'm still curious whether THW + Spikes = TWF is intended.
Edit 2: Hogarth, Double Slice doesn't apply to secondary natural attacks. That's going to cost you well over 1 DPR. ;)
Edit 2: Hogarth, Double Slice doesn't apply to secondary natural attacks. That's going to cost you well over 1 DPR. ;)
Hm? 1d4+8 = 1d4 + 1/2 Str + Power Attack.
Edit 2: Hogarth, Double Slice doesn't apply to secondary natural attacks. That's going to cost you well over 1 DPR. ;)Hm? 1d4+8 = 1d4 + 1/2 Str + Power Attack.
D'oh... right. Ignore me.
Your TWF barbarian is terrible.
I did make one mistake: I forgot to add +1 hp per level for the favored class bonus. Two if you count the +2 Str for the dwarf (wish fulfillment, probably).
This is also a circumstance where keen looks like it's less useful than an extra +1 enhancement bonus and an extra iterative attack.
Hm? 1d4+8 = 1d4 + 1/2 Str + Power Attack.
1/2 Str bonus (+8) = +4, Power Attack on natural attack = +3.
Still, it's better than the elf barbarian below:
Elf Barbarian 10
Racial Traits: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con; Medium Size; Speed 30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Elven Immunities (immune to magic sleep effects, +2 vs. Enchantment); Elven Magic; Keen Senses (+2 Perception checks); Weapon Familiarity (proficient with longbows, longswords, rapiers, shortbows; "elven" weapons martial)
Class Features: Fast Movement (+10 ft Speed unless heavy armor/load), Rage (23 rounds/day; +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC), Rage Powers (Animal Fury- bite on full attack, -5 attack roll, 1d4 damage, 1/2 Str bonus; Guarded Stance- +2 AC vs. melee for 5 rounds, move action; Increased Damage Reduction- +2 DR when raging; Scent- gains the Scent ability when raging (to include detecting invisible foes)), Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction 2/-
Skills: Cimb 4 (+12), Handle Animal 6 (+8), Intimidate 10 (+12), Knowledge (Nature) 10 (+14), Perception 10 (+16), Survival 10 (+14)
Feats: Critical Focus, Double Slice, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Elven Curve Blade)
Gear: +2 breastplate w/ +2 armor spikes (12,700 gp), +2 keen elven curve blade (18,380 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), 4,920 gp of other items
Combat*: AC 23 (touch 14, flat-footed 20), DR 2/-, 90.5 avg. hp, +15/+10 melee or +13/+8 ranged, Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +6, Init +3, CMB +15, CMD 28
*- Rage- AC 21 (touch 12, flat-footed 18), DR 4/-, 110.5 avg. hp, +17/+12 melee, Fort +12, Will +8, CMB +17, CMD 30
Curve Blade + Armor Spikes: +16/+11 (1d10+9, 15-20/x2) and +15 (1d6+7, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.35 * 14.5) + (.3 * (14.5 + (.85 * 14.5))) + (.1 * 14.5) + (.3 * (14.5 + (.6 * 14.5))) + (.55 * 10.5) + (.05 * (10.5 + (.8 * 10.5))) = 5.075 + 8.0475 + 1.45 + 6.96 + 5.775 + .945 =
Rage + CB + AS: +18/+13 (1d10+12, 15-20/x2) and +17 (1d6+9, 20/x2) and +12 (1d4+3, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.45 * 17.5) + (.3 * (17.5 + (.95 * 17.5))) + (.2 * 17.5) + (.3 * (17.5 + (.7 * 17.5))) + (.65 * 12.5) + (.05 * (12.5 + (.9 * 12.5))) + (.4 * 5.5) + (.05 * (5.5 + (.65 * 5.5))) = 7.875 + 10.2375 + 3.5 + 8.925 + 8.125 + 1.1875 + 2.2 + .45375 =
Power Attack + CB + AS: +13/+8 (1d10+18, 15-20/x2) and +12 (1d6+10, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.2 * 23.5) + (.3 * (23.5 + (.7 * 23.5))) + (.25 * (23.5 + (.45 * 23.5))) + (.4 * 13.5) + (.05 * (13.5 + (.65 * 13.5))) = 4.7 + 11.985 + 8.51875 + 5.4 + 1.11375 =
Rage + PA + CB + AS: +15/+10 (1d10+21, 15-20/x2) and +14 (1d6+12, 20/x2) and +9 (1d4+6, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.3 * 26.5) + (.3 * (26.5 + (.8 * 26.5))) + (.05 * 26.5) + (.3 * (26.5 + (.55 * 26.5))) + (.5 * 15.5) + (.05 * (15.5 + (.75 * 15.5))) + (.25 * 8.5) + (.05 * (8.5 + (.5 * 8.5))) = 7.95 + 14.31 + 1.325 + 12.3225 + 7.75 + 1.35625 + 2.125 + .6375 =
This is also a circumstance where keen looks like it's less useful than an extra +1 enhancement bonus and an extra iterative attack.Drop Weapon Focus, take Improved Critical, and switch to a +3 weapon. You end up with +1 damage per attack. Plus, if you switch from elf to human and take EWP with your bonus feat, you don't eat a con penalty and get the same number of skill points.
It's either Critical Focus as the 9th level feat and a +2 keen weapon or Improved Critical as the 9th level feat and a +3 weapon.
Switching the elf to a human (15+2+1+4 Str, 14+1 Dex, 13 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha) with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curve Blade), gives the following:
Combat*: AC 22 (touch 13, flat-footed 19), DR 2/-, 90.5 avg. hp, +16/+11 melee or +12/+7 ranged, Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +6, Init +2, CMB +16, CMD 28
*- Rage- AC 20 (touch 11, flat-footed 17), DR 4/-, 110.5 avg. hp, +18/+13 melee, Fort +12, Will +8, CMB +18, CMD 30
Curve Blade + Armor Spikes: +17/+12 (1d10+11, 15-20/x2) and +16 (1d6+8, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.4 * 16.5) + (.3 * (16.5 + (.9 * 16.5))) + (.15 * 16.5) + (.3 * (16.5 + (.65 * 16.5))) + (.6 * 11.5) + (.05 * (11.5 + (.85 * 11.5))) = 6.6 + 9.405 + 2.475 + 8.1675 + 6.9 + 1.06375 =
Rage + CB + AS: +19/+14 (1d10+14, 15-20/x2) and +18 (1d6+10, 20/x2) and +13 (1d4+4, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.5 * 19.5) + (.3 * (19.5 + (.95 * 19.5))) + (.25 * 19.5) + (.3 * (19.5 + (.75 * 19.5))) + (.7 * 13.5) + (.05 * (13.5 + (.95 * 13.5))) + (.45 * 6.5) + (.05 * (6.5 + (.7 * 6.5))) = 9.75 + 11.4075 + 4.875 + 10.2375 + 9.45 + 1.31625 + 2.925 + .5525 =
Power Attack + CB + AS: +14/+9 (1d10+20, 15-20/x2) and +13 (1d6+11, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.25 * 25.5) + (.3 * (25.5 + (.75 * 25.5))) + (.3 * (25.5 + (.5 * 25.5))) + (.45 * 14.5) + (.05 * (14.5 + (.7 * 14.5))) = 6.375 + 13.3875 + 11.475 + 6.525 + 1.2325 =
Rage + PA + CB + AS: +16/+11 (1d10+23, 15-20/x2) and +15 (1d6+13, 20/x2) and +10 (1d4+7, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.35 * 28.5) + (.3 * (28.5 + (.85 * 28.5))) + (.1 * 28.5) + (.3 * (28.5 + (.6 * 28.5))) + (.55 * 16.5) + (.05 * (16.5 + (.8 * 16.5))) + (.3 * 9.5) + (.05 * (9.5 + (.55 * 9.5))) = 9.975 + 15.8175 + 2.85 + 13.68 + 9.075 + 1.485 + 2.85 + .73625 =
Which does get significantly above 50 DPR, after all... It looks as if the extra +2 Str is the biggest factor.
Also, Meirdrarel still needs her bite damage.
It's included in the Rage blocks
Rage + CB + AS: +18/+13 (1d10+12, 15-20/x2) and +17 (1d6+9, 20/x2) and +12 (1d4+3, 20/x2)
...Rage + PA + CB + AS: +15/+10 (1d10+21, 15-20/x2) and +14 (1d6+12, 20/x2) and +9 (1d4+6, 20/x2)
It's either Critical Focus as the 9th level feat and a +2 keen weapon or Improved Critical as the 9th level feat and a +3 weapon.Improved Critical is non-negotiable. +1 to-hit and +1 damage (the cost to not have Imp Crit) is better than pretty much any feat you could possibly get, with the possible exception of Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. The feat to sacrifice, it seems, is Critical Focus. It's generally the second-weakest DPS feat most builds will actually take. (Weapon Focus is almost always the weakest.)
Switching to Improved Critical and a +3 weapon:
Curve Blade + Armor Spikes: +18/+13 (1d10+12, 15-20/x2) and +16 (1d6+8, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.75 * (17.5 + (.3 * 17.5))) + (.5 * (17.5 + (.3 * 17.5))) + (.65 * (11.5 + (.05 * 11.5))) = 17.0625 + 11.375 + 7.84875 =
Rage + CB + AS: +20/+15 (1d10+15, 15-20/x2) and +18 (1d6+10, 20/x2) and +13 (1d4+4, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.85 * (20.5 + (.3 * 20.5))) + (.6 * (20.5 + (.3 * 20.5))) + (.75 * (13.5 + (.05 * 13.5))) + (.5 * (6.5 + (.05 * 6.5))) = 22.6525 + 15.99 + 10.63125 + 3.4125 =
Power Attack + CB + AS: +15/+10 (1d10+21, 15-20/x2) and +13 (1d6+11, 20/x2
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.6 * (26.5 + (.3 * 26.5))) + (.35 * (26.5 + (.3 * 26.5))) + (.5 * (14.5 + (.05 * 14.5))) = 20.67 + 12.0575 + 7.6125 =
Rage + PA + CB + AS: +17/+12 (1d10+24, 15-20/x2) and +15 (1d6+13, 20/x2) and +10 (1d4+7, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.7 * (29.5 + (.3 * 29.5))) + (.45 * (29.5 + (.3 * 29.5))) + (.6 * (16.5 + (.05 * 16.5))) + (.35 * (9.5 + (.05 * 9.5))) = 26.845 + 17.2575 + 10.395 + 3.49125 =
Interestingly, the difference is ~2 DPR. Much less than the difference between a 20/24 Str and a 22/26 Str.
Weapon Focus is one of the feats that have the greatest effect at 1st-3rd level (when it is also one of the better feats you can take at that point). It steadily becomes less useful as more and higher bonuses accrue, except as a prerequisite for other feats. However, the effect on DPR is still noticeable when you lose ~5% of your damage potential from a weapon (usually your primary) because it misses more often. In the case of the barbarian above, that difference is ~4 DPR from the last attack sequence...
Hm? 1d4+8 = 1d4 + 1/2 Str + Power Attack.1/2 Str bonus (+8) = +4, Power Attack on natural attack = +3.
Oops, I screwed up on the Str bonus for that one attack.
As you can see, if you have a high enough damage bonus (in this case raging Str + Power Attack), it benefits you to get it applied to as many attacks as possible.
So, considering 2-handed and Armor spikes are not intended, the barbarian would plain out suck, is that it?
So, considering 2-handed and Armor spikes are not intended, the barbarian would plain out suck, is that it?
Well, when it comes to DPR - the Barbarian with just a 2-H weapon was looking at about 50 DPR when Raging - which puts him slightly higher than a Rogue. From the looks of this thread so far, 50 isn't "plain out suck", but it's certainly way behind the fighter and the druid.
To be fair, the fighter has less "tricks" than the Barbarian does. (The Druid though...)
I do think the APG needs to be very kind to the Barbarian.
The fighter has "less tricks"? What do you mean exactly?
The fighter has "less tricks"? What do you mean exactly?
Proprietary (non-damage) gimmicks like Scent or No Escape or Intimidating Glare, I assume.
So, considering 2-handed and Armor spikes are not intended,
Actually, I'm having a very hard time coming up with a cogent argument against it. Enough so that my forthcoming DPR Calculator 2.0 will handle that configuration. :)
(thanks again tejon!)
Try version 2. :D
As promised, two-hand + spikes is now valid, plus various other improvements. A bit more testing this time around, too. I've reconstructed a couple of the builds from this thread and got the right results. Of course, the bugs will be in the builds I didn't check. ;) However, this version will be a lot easier to maintain... more calculation cells = less crazy single-cell formula blocks.
The fighter has "less tricks"? What do you mean exactly?
The fighter's abilities are all hit/damage/rate of fire based. (At least any of the fighter builds on this thread)
With a Barbarian, you are getting some different tricks with Rage powers. Low light vision and scent were mentioned (Why on earth Low-Light vision is a rage power I have no idea), also things like No escape. In addition there is the speed bonus, which is pretty good at low levels (becomes near irrelevant later on though)
[
Hm? 1d4+8 = 1d4 + 1/2 Str + Power Attack.1/2 Str bonus (+8) = +4, Power Attack on natural attack = +3.Oops, I screwed up on the Str bonus for that one attack.
As you can see, if you have a high enough damage bonus (in this case raging Str + Power Attack), it benefits you to get it applied to as many attacks as possible.
After playing around with the numbers, it's more a case of even/odd break-points: 20 Str gives a +5 bonus (+7 to damage with two-handed weapons, +2 on off-hand/secondary natural), 22 Str gives a +6 bonus (+9 to damage with two-handed weapons, +3 on off-hand/secondary natural), 24 Str gives a +7 bonus (+10 to damage with two-handed weapons, +3 on off-hand/secondary natural), 26 Str gives a +8 bonus (+12 to damage with two-handed weapons, +4 on off-hand/secondary natural), etc.
I didn't take that into account with Ahnuld and Meirdrarel. With Ahnuld, I was also applying keen to weapons other than 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 (which is not an effective choice), and not choosing the most effective feats (an extra iterative attack with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting is more beneficial than 20%, or even 100%, more effective criticals). And, yes, he could have a higher AC with a +2 breastplate instead of rhino hide, but rhino hide gets charging damage up to 31.6625...
Half-Orc Barbarian 10
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Str), Medium Size, Speed 30 ft, Darkvision 60 ft, Intimidating (+2 Intimidate checks), Orc Blood, Orc Ferocity, Weapon Familiarity (proficient w/ greataxes, falchions; "orc" weapons martial)
Class Features: Fast Movement (+10 ft Speed unless heavy armor/load), Rage (23 rounds/day; +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves, -2 AC), Rage Powers (Animal Fury- bite on full attack, -5 attack roll, 1d4 damage, 1/2 Str bonus; Guarded Stance- +2 AC vs. melee for 5 rounds, move action; Increased Damage Reduction- +2 DR when raging; Intimidating Glare- Intimidate check as move action, opponent shaken 1d4 rounds +1 round/5 points above DC), Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction 2/-
Skills: Acrobatics 10 (+16), Intimidate 10 (+14), Perception 10 (+14), Survival 10 (+14)
Feats: Double Slice, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Orc Double Axe)
Gear: rhino hide (5,165 gp), +2/+2 orc double axe (16,660 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), ioun stone (dusty rose prism, +1 insight AC) (5,000 gp), ioun stone (deep red sphere, +2 enhancement Dex) (8,000 gp), 1,175 gp of other items
Combat*: AC 22 (touch 15, flat-footed 20), DR 2/-, 90.5 avg. hp, +16/+11 melee or +13/+8 ranged, Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +6, Init +3, CMB +16, CMD 29
*- Rage- AC 20 (touch 13, flat-footed 18), DR 4/-, 110.5 avg. hp, +18/+13 melee, Fort +12, Will +8, CMB +18, CMD 31
Charge + Power Attack: +18 (1d8+20, 20/x3, +2d6), AC 20
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.75 * (31.5 + (.1 * 24.5))) =
Rage + Charge + PA: +20 (1d8+23, 20/x3, +2d6), AC 18
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.85 * (34.5 + (.1 * 27.5))) =
Power Attack: +16/+11 (1d8+20, 20/x3)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.65 * (24.5 + (.1 * 24.5))) + (.4 * (24.5 + (.1 * 24.5))) = 17.5175 + 10.78 =
Rage + PA: +18/+13 (1d8+23, 20/x3) and +10 (1d4+7, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.75 * (27.5 + (.1 * 27.5))) + (.5 * (27.5 + (.1 * 27.5))) + (.35 * (9.5 + (.05 * 9.5))) = 22.6875 + 15.125 + 3.49125 =
Two-Weapon Fighting: +17/+12 (1d8+8, 20/x3) and +17/+12 (1d8+8, 20/x3)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.7 * (12.5 + (.1 * 12.5))) + (.45 * (12.5 + (.1 * 12.5))) + (.7 * (12.5 + (.1 * 12.5))) + (.45 * (12.5 + (.1 * 12.5))) = 9.625 + 6.1875 + 9.625 + 6.1875 =
Rage +TWF: +19/+14 (1d8+10, 20/x3) and +19/14 (1d8+10, 20/x3) and +13 (1d4+4, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.8 * (14.5 + (.1 * 14.5))) + (.55 * (14.5 + (.1 * 14.5))) + (.8 * (14.5 + (.1 * 14.5))) + (.55 * (14.5 + (.1 * 14.5))) + (.5 * (6.5 + (.05 * 6.5))) = 12.76 + 8.7725 + 12.76 + 8.7725 + 3.4125 =
PA + TWF: +14/+9 (1d8+14, 20/x3) and +14/+9 (1d8+11, 20/x3)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.55 * (18.5 + (.1 * 18.5))) + (.3 * (18.5 + (.1 * 18.5))) + (.55 * (15.5 + (.1 * 15.5))) + (.3 * (15.5 + (.1 * 15.5))) = 11.1925 + 6.105 + 9.3775 + 5.115 =
Rage + PA + TWF: +16/+11 (1d8+16, 20/x3) and +16/+11 (1d8+13, 20/x3) and +9 (1d4+7, 20/x2)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.65 * (20.5 + (.1 * 20.5))) + (.4 * (20.5 + (.1 * 20.5))) + (.65 * (17.5 + (.1 * 17.5))) + (.4 * (17.5 + (.1 * 17.5))) + (.35 * (9.5 + (.05 * 9.5))) = 14.6575 + 9.02 + 12.5125 + 7.7 + 3.49125 =
Not quite as good as Tempest Ted, but within shouting distance when raging. Elven curve blade + armor spikes looks like the "two-weapon" fighting style to choose for maximizing damage, though.
(Melvin's Cousin the 10 Fighter - just for fun)
Spoiler:Str 20 (base 14, +2 level, +4 item)
Dex 17 (base 15, +2 racial)
Con 13
Wis 12+8 fort/+8 will
HP 75 (10d10+20)
AC 26 (+1 full plate, +3 dex, +1 dodge, +1 Monk's Robe, +1 ring)weapon training unarmed strike +2
Feats:
1 two weapon fighting
1 improved unarmed strike
1 weapon focus unarmed strike
2 dodge
3 power attack
4 weapon spec unarmed strike
5 iron will
6 improved two weapon fighting
7 double slice
8 improved crit unarmed strike
9 greater weapon focus unarmed strike
10 critical focusEquipment:
62000 g starting wealth
belt of str +4 16000
handy haversack 2000
full plate +1 2650
monk's robe 13000
cloak of resistance +2 4000
amulet of mighty fists +2 20000
ring of protection +1=2350g left
(Can you wear a monk's robe on top of full plate? I'd have to find some other way to get above 22 armor otherwise - if that's possible)
Attack: +19/+19/+14/+14 1d8+11 (19-20/x2)
Power Attack: +16/+16/+11/+11 1d8+11(19-20/x2)
Power attack is an increase (barely) so he uses it.
DPR: 47.80
+1 attack: 4.40
+1 dmg: 2.39
Extra Attack: +15.80
note: I used Tejon's spreadsheet v2.02 for calculations.
so just to play around I started leveling my summoner build to level 10 and it looks like summoners kind of break the damage charts. Ignoring the summoner himself and just looking at at the Eidolon itself.
str 29
dex 14
con 18
int 7
wis 10
chr 11
Evolutions
imp damage claws
energy attack
flight
extra limbs arms
claws
wing buffet
large
magic attack
imp natural armor
HP 85
AC 29 (touch 12, flat footed 27)
Fort +12
Ref +7
Will +8
Feats:
Weapon Focus Claws
Power Attack
Improved Natural Attack Claws
Hover
Improved Critical Claws
Equipment that effects Eidolon(summmoner has craft wondrous):
Amulet of Mighty Fist +3
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Attacks:
4 Claws +22(19-20x2) (2d6+12+d6{lightning}) avg 22.5 each
2 Wing Buffets +19 (1d6+7+d6{lighting}) avg 14 each
Power Attack:
4 Claws +19(19-20x2) (2d6+18+d6{lightning}) avg 28.5 each
2 Wing Buffets +16 1d6+10+d6{lighting}) avg 17 each
Please note that I did not use the formula in the original post for damage calculations as it would have counted the crit damage as double what it should. If I had used those calculations the numbers would be higher.
DPR per claw is 21.44 a (+1 bonus to hit takes it to 22.37) normal and 23.35 (+1 24.54) with power attack. Wing buffets are 10.91 (+1 11.5) normal and 11.08 (+1 11.79) with power attack.
So on a full attack action the average damage is 107.58 (+1 112.48) normal and 115.56 (+1 121.74) with power attack.
Please take note that this is not even a fully optimized Eidolon, this is just the one I was planing on playing in a game. After looking at these numbers I think that might be a bad idea now.
Claws base damage is d6 for being large, improved damage claws takes it up to d8 and the feat improved natural attack takes it to 2d6.
Wing buffet is just the base d6 for a large creature.
str base was 16 for biped +4 from the level progression chart, +8 for large evolution plus 1 from ability score increase for a total of 29 str.
attack bonus is +9 from str, +9 from BAB, -1 from size, +3 from amulet, +1 from weapon focus for a total of +21 with the claws. wings take a -2 for being secondary attacks and -1 from no weapon focus so +18
With power attack that drops down to a +19 and +15
damage for claws is +9 from str, +3 from amulet and +6 more when power attacking. Damage from wings is +4 from str, +3 from amulet and +3 when power attacking. All attacks do an extra d6 lightning damage from the Energy Attacks evolution.
so adding these up we get on claws:
7 avg
+12 or +18
+3.5 lightning
=22.5 or 28.5 with power attack
wings are
3.5 base
+7 or +10
+3.5 lightning
=14 or 17 with power attack.
Crit chance on claws are 10% thanks to improved critical, while the wings are 5%. Since lightning doesnt get multiplied the average damage from crits is 1.9 or 2.5 for the claws and .525 or .675 on the wings.
Edit: Here is the Eidolons pet summoner:
str 20 (15 base, 2 race, 1 level, 2 belt)
dex 12
con 16 (13 base, 1 level, 2 belt)
int 10
wis 8
chr 16 (14 base, 2 headband)
Feats: (6 total, 1 from human 5 from level)
Weapon Prof greatsword
weapon focus greatsword
arcane strike
craft wondrous
craft arms and armor
medium armor prof
Equipment:
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
Mithril Breastplate +2
Greatsword +2
Haversack
Belt of Physical Might +2 str and con
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2
HP 83
AC 22 (touch 12, Flat Footed 21)
Fort +8
Ref +6
Will +12
Full Attack
Greatsword +15/+10 (2d6+12) 19 avg
Attack bonus:
5 Str
7 BAB
2 Magic
1 Weapon Focus
Damage bonus:
7 Str
2 Magic
3 Arcane Strike
The Summoner's DPR is 13.06 with the first attack and 8.71 with the second for a total of 21.77.
The summoner would be spending the first round of every fight casting haste on his party and Eidolon though, thus causing much more damage.
And the Druid is dethroned.
Animal companion - meet EIDOLON!
stuff
The DPR formula for figuring damage that is not multiplied on a critical is h(d+s)+(tchd)
h= chance to hit expressed as %
d= average damage per hit
s= damage not multiplied on a crit
t= chance to threaten expressed as %
c= threat multiplier (x2=1, x3=2, etc etc)
Using this formula, I calculate the Eidolon's DPR as 122.18, while I figured the summoner's as 19.86 (don't know why we got a different figure there) for a total DPR of 142.04
Under the play test instructions for Summoner it is stated that they cannot use magic items (unless it has changed in the past few weeks). You will need to recalculate DPR without that +3 amulet of mighty fists. Out of the 10th level character's budget of 62,000 gp the summoner spent 45,000 gp on the amulet for the Eidolon, making the Summoner even squishier than normal.
A Summoner can of course easily bestow a greater magic fang on his Eidolon - however, it takes one spell for each natural weapon to retain that +3 to hit and damage for each of the 6 natural weapons. This is impossible as the Eidolon's pet summoner has a 16 Cha for a total of 4 3rd level spell slots per day - although one could presume for DPR calculations that the Summoner burned his 1 4th level spell slot for the day on greater magic weapon as well, but this still leaves one natural weapon short of the +3 enhancement bonus...
Nice work though! :)
Straight from the Summoner update post on the Round 2 playtest forums (emphasis mine)
Eidolons and Equipment
Eidolons are limited in the amount of gear and equipment they can use. Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. Eidolons with the proper training and the limbs (arms) evolution can wield weapons. They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolons can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.
Under the play test instructions for Summoner it is stated that they cannot use magic items (unless it has changed in the past few weeks). You will need to recalculate DPR without that +3 amulet of mighty fists. Out of the 10th level character's budget of 62,000 gp the summoner spent 45,000 gp on the amulet for the Eidolon, making the Summoner even squishier than normal.
A Summoner can of course easily bestow a greater magic fang on his Eidolon - however, it takes one spell for each natural weapon to retain that +3 to hit and damage for each of the 6 natural weapons. This is impossible as the Eidolon's pet summoner has a 16 Cha for a total of 4 3rd level spell slots per day - although one could presume for DPR calculations that the Summoner burned his 1 4th level spell slot for the day on greater magic weapon as well, but this still leaves one natural weapon short of the +3 enhancement bonus...
Nice work though! :)
Straight from the Summoner update post on the Round 2 playtest forums (emphasis mine)
...Eidolons and Equipment
Eidolons are limited in the amount of gear and equipment they can use. Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. Eidolons with the proper training and the limbs (arms) evolution can wield weapons. They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolons can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of
Fair enough.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just to round things out, here's a two-weapon ranger:
Human Ranger 10
Racial Traits: +2 Any one score (Str), Medium Size, Speed 30 ft, Bonus Feat at 1st level, Skilled (+1 Skill Rank per level)
Class Features[b]: Favored Enemies (+6, +2, +2 or +4, +4, +2), Track (+5 on check), Wild Empathy (+9 check), Combat Style (Two-Weapon Combat- Double Slice, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend), Endurance, Favored Terrains (+4 and +2), Hunter's Bond (Animal Companion, Small Cat, as Druid 7), Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Evasion
[b]Skills: Climb 3 (+12), Handle Animal 7 (+9), Heal 5 (+10), Knowledge (Geography) 7 (+10), Knowledge (Nature) 10 (+13), Perception 10 (+15), Ride 5 (+10), Stealth 10 (+15), Survival 10 (+15), Swim 3 (+12)
Feats: Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance, Improved Critical (Kukri), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
Spells: Ranger (CL 7); 1st-3, 2nd-2
Spells Prepared: entangle (x2), longstrider (cast); barkskin (x2, both cast)
Gear: +2 mithral breastplate (8,200 gp), two +2 kukris (16,616 gp), ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp), amulet of mighty fists +1 (for animal companion; 5,000 gp), belt of giant strength +4 (16,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), handy haversack (2,000 gp), headband of inspired wisdom +2 (4,000 gp), 4,184 gp of other items
Combat: AC 25* (touch 14, flat-footed 22), 79.5 avg. hp, +16/+11 melee or +12/+7 ranged, Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +9, Init +2, CMB +16, CMD 28
*- includes +3 enhancement to natural armor from barkskin
Cheetah Companion (Medium Size)
Natural Abilities: Speed 50 ft, Natural Armor +5 (+1 +4 level), Bite (1d6) and two Claws (1d3), Low-Light Vision, Scent, Sprint
Base Statistics: 6 HD, +4 BAB, Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2, 6 Skill Ranks, 3 Feats, 3 Bonus Tricks, Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion
Skills: Acrobatics 1 (+10), Climb 1 (+8), Perception 2 (+6), Stealth 1 (+10), Survival 1 (+2)
Feats: Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse
Combat: AC 23* (touch 16, flat-footed 17), 39 avg. hp, +11 bite* and two +11 claws*, Fort +7, Ref +11, Will +5, Init +6, CMB +8, CMD 24
*- AC includes +3 enhancement to natural armor from barkskin, attacks include amulet of mighty fists +1
Power Attack + Two-Weapon Fighting: +14/+9 (1d4+14, 15-20/x2) and +14/+9 (1d4+11, 15-20/x2) and rend* (1d10+18)
*- for chance of rend, I calculated the chance that both +14 attacks and one of the +9 attacks miss OR one of the +14 attacks and both of the +9 attacks miss (.45 * ((.45 * .7) + (.7 * .7))) and subtracted from 100% (63.775%)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.55 * (16.5 + (.3 * 16.5))) + (.3 * (16.5 + (.3 * 16.5))) + (.55 * (13.5 + (.3 * 13.5))) + (.3 * (13.5 + (.3 * 13.5))) + (.63775 * 23.5) = 11.7975 + 6.435 + 9.6525 + 5.265 + 14.987125 =
Which is getting close to Tempest Ted. However, Two-Weapon Rend accounted for ~15 DPR, so damage is going to be much lower before 10th level. Also, this doesn't include Favored Enemy bonuses (an additional +6, +4, or +2 on attack and damage rolls).
Cheetah (using PA): +9 (1d6+9) and +9/+9 (1d3+9)
DPR vs. AC 24 = (.3 * (12.5 + (.05 * 12.5))) + (.3 * (11 + (.05 * 11))) + (.3 * (11 + (.05 * 11))) = 3.9375 + 3.465 + 3.465 =
Total DPR = 48.137125 + 10.8675 =
It might be interesting to see the numbers for a two-handed weapon + armor spikes version.
EDIT: I corrected the rend percentage formula and totaled the ranger and companion damage.
My formula for rend chance is different... you need both the main hand and the off-hand to hit, so you need to calculate the total hit chance for each hand separately, then compound them for the chance that both hands hit. (You got it right that for each individual hand you get the total chance of a single hit by compounding misses instead.) The formula used by my spreadsheet would come out as follows:
(1 - (0.45 * 0.7 * 1 * 1)) * (1 - (0.45 * 0.7 * 1))
= (1 - .315) * (1 - .315)
= .685 * .685
= .469225, or 46.9225%.
Meanwhile, I'm very certain that Rend does not benefit from Power Attack. It's not the direct result of a (single) melee attack, and therefore not melee damage. It's conditional extra damage, which is a significant distinction. With that change the rend is only 1d10+9, which makes Power Attack a small net loss against non-favored enemies: my outcome is 39.95 DPR with Power Attack, 41.50 without.
Critical Focus is a far better baseline investment, yielding 44.02. Power Attack is better against a +6 favored enemy, but Critical Focus is better against anything less (and only falls at that point because you're already confirming your second iterative on a 16 - add 1 point of AC to the enemy and it gets better again).
(Edit: Corrected a minor spreadsheet glitch. Lost about .4 DPS. Phooey!)
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Meanwhile, I'm very certain that Rend does not benefit from Power Attack.
And I'm 100% certain that it does. Calling Rend "not a source of melee damage" is ... dubious, at best. There is no specific game definition for 'melee damage', so we refer to a common-sense definition: "damage dealt as the result of a melee attack or attacks". Rend clearly, both conceptually and mechanically, is melee damage resulting from two melee attacks. The fact that it automatically hits if its trigger condition is met doesn't make it "not melee damage".
Furthermore, it makes sense to apply Power Attack's damage bonus from both simulationist and gamist perspectives:
Sim -- Obvious.
Game -- You take the penalty to attack rolls on both triggering attacks, which means you essentially take a penalty to the chance of Rend triggering. Since you're taking the penalty associated with Power Attack, you should also receive the bonus associated with it.
stuffThe DPR formula for figuring damage that is not multiplied on a critical is h(d+s)+(tchd)
h= chance to hit expressed as %
d= average damage per hit
s= damage not multiplied on a crit
t= chance to threaten expressed as %
c= threat multiplier (x2=1, x3=2, etc etc)Using this formula, I calculate the Eidolon's DPR as 122.18, while I figured the summoner's as 19.86 (don't know why we got a different figure there) for a total DPR of 142.04
When you do tchd
If you avg damage is 20your hit chance 75%
crit multiplier 2
crit chance 10%
you get 3, which is wrong(the real amount is 1.5). If your average damage is 20 and you are using a 10% crit chance weapon that does double damage on a crit, your average damage is being raised by 10%, not 20% as this formula gives. 10% of your hits do double damage, which this formual gives you but it doesnt take into account that those 10% hits were already counted as doing damage in the first part of the formula.
The summoner's math I did was:
((15/24)*19 + (10/24)*19)*1.1
11.875+7.9166666=19.7916666
10% of all hits will be crits for double damage, so this raises overall damage by 10% giving us 21.7708333333
The correct formula I think would be t(c-1)hd, because you need to take into account that you already counted the damage from the base hit you just need to add in the extra damage.
And I'm 100% certain that it does. Calling Rend "not a source of melee damage" is ... dubious, at best. There is no specific game definition for 'melee damage', so we refer to a common-sense definition: "damage dealt as the result of a melee attack or attacks". Rend clearly, both conceptually and mechanically, is melee damage resulting from two melee attacks. The fact that it automatically hits if its trigger condition is met doesn't make it "not melee damage".
Rend is expressively "additional damage", so it in of itself is not a melee damage roll, it is extra damage being added to another damage roll. Do you add power attack's damage bonus to the extra damage from a flaming weapon? Or the extra damage from sneak attack?
There is no specific game definition for 'melee damage', so we refer to a common-sense definition: "damage dealt as the result of a melee attack or attacks".
Bolded bit is where I differ from a purely mechanical standpoint. Like deathmaster above, I see Rend in the same category as sneak attack: conditional extra damage.
Sim -- Obvious.
Here, I completely disagree. A power attack is a reckless, wide swing. Thereafter diverting the angle to tear flesh from two points of contact (i.e., to rend) is considerably more difficult, not less so. It's not rage, you're not literally swinging harder; you're playing a leverage game and it can't go both ways at once.
Game -- You take the penalty to attack rolls on both triggering attacks, which means you essentially take a penalty to the chance of Rend triggering. Since you're taking the penalty associated with Power Attack, you should also receive the bonus associated with it.
You did gain the benefit. At least 1.5 times, in fact.