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Alright, this is one for the books. This arises from a fight against stone giants at the Storval Steps in Rise of the Runelords vol 4.
Druid, transformed into a large air elemental through her wildshape ability, is fighitng a stone giant while hovering about 40' off the ground (the giant is standing on a ledge). The giant gets in two lucky shots, and drops the druid to -2 hp. 40' below, a dwarf ally happens to be standing adjacent to where the druid would "fall".
I roll hypothetical falling damage, and it's going to kill her unless something happens. So.
1) Does a druid revert back to their natural form when knocked unconscious (from negative hitpoints, and not some other effect)?
2) Assuming she remains in air elemental form, does she fall? If so, does she fall in a way that delivers falling damage?
3) If she falls, can the dwarf attempt a grapple as she moves through his threatened area, thereby catching her (I think so). But does she still take any falling damage?
a) If she does take damage, is it full or mitigated?
b) Does the dwarf take damage?
c) Any additional complications from the air elemental being large and the dwarf being medium?
How's that for a D&D physics question? I appreciate the PATHFINDER braintrust's help on this one.
I always thought the druid would go back to the normal form, but I can't find any PF or 3.5 rules to support it so I would say it stays in elemental form until it chooses to change back.
Since the air elemental flies I would give it the benefit of a featherfall effect.
She should land in the nearest open square by the rules.
The last sentence is the only one I think is a rule, but now I can't find the source. The first two are my opinions as a DM.
Fergie Here:
By the letter of the rules as I understand them...
1) Druid stays in elemental form.
2) Falls as any character would.
3) As she is not an opponent, no AoO
a) full damage (last 10' nonlethal?)
b) Not unless the druid fell on the dwarf
c) I think the characters weight might increase, but not 100% sure.
OK, that is the "rules", but as a DM, I would doubt that a druid wildshaped as an air elemental would fall faster then a feather fall. I would also allow a character to attempt to catch another character (or at least split the falling damage and maybe make it non-lethal.
3) As she is not an opponent, no AoO
This is a common misunderstanding. Nowhere in the rules is "opponent" defined. An opponent can be anyone the player designates as such, and there's nothing to prevent you from changing your mind from one action to the next. You can take AoO against people you're totally pals with, and this is exactly one of the situations where it's appropriate to do so.
Now, how much does this help? Good question. The dwarf gets his AoO as the druid enters his square (from above), but grapple is no longer an AoO-friendly action. I think the best he can do is create a softer landing for his druid friend.
Ad-libbing it, I'd go with the Falling Objects rules. The druid is large, so he deals 4d6 damage as an object. However, the dwarf can roll a DC 15 Reflex save to halve that damage. Through horrid but convenient misapplication of Newton's Third Law, the druid should take identical damage to the dwarf: they're both hit for 2d6, which the druid can probably survive.
3) As she is not an opponent, no AoOThis is a common misunderstanding. Nowhere in the rules is "opponent" defined. An opponent can be anyone the player designates as such, and there's nothing to prevent you from changing your mind from one action to the next. You can take AoO against people you're totally pals with, and this is exactly one of the situations where it's appropriate to do so.
Now, how much does this help? Good question. The dwarf gets his AoO as the druid enters his square (from above), but grapple is no longer an AoO-friendly action. I think the best he can do is create a softer landing for his druid friend.
Ad-libbing it, I'd go with the Falling Objects rules. The druid is large, so he deals 4d6 damage as an object. However, the dwarf can roll a DC 15 Reflex save to halve that damage. Through horrid but convenient misapplication of Newton's Third Law, the druid should take identical damage to the dwarf: they're both hit for 2d6, which the druid can probably survive.
If the rules dont define a word it is common knowledge to use the real life definition. I think allowing for a dex and/or strength check would be the best call if it is determined that the elemental actually falls.
If the rules dont define a word it is common knowledge to use the real life definition.
"One whose actions you oppose," yes. And I think the dwarf was legitimately in opposition to the druid's action, "falling to certain death." :)
Sometimes, the words in the rules aren't rules words. They're just the cleanest way to write a sentence.
Edit: Dangit, that's two posts now where I failed to say "...also men?"
If the rules dont define a word it is common knowledge to use the real life definition."One whose actions you oppose," yes. And I think the dwarf was legitimately in opposition to the druid's action, "falling to certain death." :)
Sometimes, the words in the rules aren't rules words. They're just the cleanest way to write a sentence.
Edit: Dangit, that's two posts now where I failed to say "...also men?"
You are trying hard with this one. I am not saying I would not let a player try it, but I can't suggest it as a general recommendation.
If she's an air elemental isn't she as the description said "made of living air"? How much damage does air really take when it falls?
Fill up a balloon and drop it off a four story building, I think that's what just happened to your druid.
I'll assume you've just done that experiment and have noted that the balloon didn't viciously explode from taking 3d6 points worth of fall damage.
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The elemental is not of incorporeal type (then it would not be subject to falling), so, according to the rules, it falls normally. (Probably as a DM I'd house rule it falls slowly, though).
As for the dwarf catching him, there are some rules for catching a falling fellow in the Climb skill description:
[QUOTE from=Climb]
Catch a Falling Character While Climbing: If someone climbing above you or adjacent to you falls, you can attempt to catch the falling character if he or she is within your reach. Doing so requires a successful melee touch attack against the falling character (though he or she can voluntarily forego any Dexterity bonus to AC if desired). If you hit, you must immediately attempt a Climb check (DC = wall's DC + 10).
So I guess, in this case it'd be just a melee touch attack to catch him. Perhaps, as a DM, I'd add in a reflex save for the dwarf before he can try that melee touch attack. Failed save would mean the falling character hits him for some damage.
How much does a large air elemental weigh? I know fire elementals don't weigh very much, but I'm not certain about air elementals. It should say in the Bestiary. I don't have mine at hand.
But for the story's sake, keep the druid in elemental form and have them float down. Getting one-shotted to unconsciousness and then falling to your death (not to mention possibly causing serious damage to a comrade as well) would just stink for the player.
On the other hand, if the player foolishly went up there against the advice of the party and got one-shotted, then having them revert to their humanoid form and splatting on the ground might be epic irony. *grin*
Personally, I'm torn.
Air elementals are made of... air, thus they're about the same weight as the ambient air. Thus, they tend to sit in place, or perhaps fall slowly, and probably don't take falling damage under normal circumstances.
I don't see anything in the rules for wild shape, elemental body, spellcasting in general, or supernatural abilities in general that says "this/any spell effect ends when the caster/recipient is unconscious." Thus, the druid stays in wild shape even if KO'd.
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Thanks, Sean. Your input carries a lot of weight. The player will be tickled that this adjudication reached your ears.
She'll also be pleased to not have to roll up a new character.
I'm a big fan of D&D physics. See the Gnomish Underwater Parachute anecdote for another extreme example (about 8 posts down).
Air elementals are made of... air, thus they're about the same weight as the ambient air. Thus, they tend to sit in place, or perhaps fall slowly, and probably don't take falling damage under normal circumstances.
I don't see anything in the rules for wild shape, elemental body, spellcasting in general, or supernatural abilities in general that says "this/any spell effect ends when the caster/recipient is unconscious." Thus, the druid stays in wild shape even if KO'd.
Thanks, Sean. Your input carries a lot of weight. The player will be tickled that this adjudication reached your ears.
What about my input? Just because I have never written an adventure, published anything, designed anything, am not famous in the game world, don't work for Paizo.......
<stops to think for a moment>
This argument is not going in my favor. Nevermind for now I will have to come back when I think of good reasons.
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Oh, well YOU, I mean... It's YOU! Of course your input is, I mean it goes without saying!
Honestly, I think we've got a situation where the way the rules are written, if you're a rules nazi, the elemental is supposed to fall and take damage, but that's without turning on the common sense filter.
I had sort of decided to go with whatever was the most fun; the governing prinicpal in all games, I think. Sean's adjudication is like a special dispensation from the Pope, however.
Maybe Sean could sell gaming "indulgencies" to bypass hard-edged rules. We could print certificates, and players could buy them online to present to their GM when D&D physics wasn't working out for them.
Early retirement for Mr. Reynolds.
Thanks, Sean. Your input carries a lot of weight. The player will be tickled that this adjudication reached your ears.
What about my input? Just because I have never written an adventure, published anything, designed anything, am not famous in the game world, don't work for Paizo.......
<stops to think for a moment>
This argument is not going in my favor. Nevermind for now I will have to come back when I think of good reasons.
I wonder what would happen if the giant inhaled the unconscious druid?
That would be supercereal of a Fruit Brute severity.
love,
malkav
PS: I am in no way advocating the inhalation of druids (unconscious or otherwise)
Reminds me of the Tick animated series episode where he inhales a mucousy clone of himself. Soooo funny!